England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Here are Jim Telfers words. I hope the England team get to see them!

Earlier in the day, at a Galashiels home adorned with a sprinkling of obviously cherished Lions memorabilia, the choice words flow. ‘England are not as good as they think they are,’ Telfer declares.
‘They were really up for it against New Zealand, very physical against a tired team. If they had played another five times, the All Blacks would have won them all. You have to retain perspective.
‘In their favour is the coaching team of Stuart Lancaster, Graham Rowntree and Andy Farrell. All from the North and all down to earth. They will not let that victory go to their heads.
‘The players are a different matter, people like Chris Ashton, Danny Care, Ben Youngs and Manu Tuilagi. They are young, very impressionable and they think what they read is all true.
‘There is the makings of a good squad, but it is not good at the moment. Like the English football team, a couple of wins and they think they are world-beaters.

‘Unless they are careful they will end up playing in a very English way. The way Saracens play. Pretty boring. The Northampton way. Boring. It is all about forward domination, and the irony is that England have some bloody good backs.
‘I look at the Saxons team and see someone like Wasps winger Christian Wade. He’s like greased lightning.’
Ask Telfer why England might resort to type, and you receive an answer straight from the William Wallace Guide to Good Neighbours.
‘Because they are English. They have got a problem and they can keep it. They are too arrogant, too pretentious and too condescending to realise they have a problem. Mind you, I like a lot of English people, especially from the northern part of the country.’
That should raise the hackles of the ‘southern softies’ in the England XV and ensure a prominent mention for Telfer in the various team talks preceding the Calcutta Cup '

Just out of interest has anyone from the squad or coaching team said they are 'world beaters'?
They beat the best team in the world in their last game but they all know & say they have to back it up or it counts for little.

[Glas a du]

‘

In their favour is the coaching team of Stuart Lancaster, Graham Rowntree and Andy Farrell. All from the North and all down to earth...Mind you, I like a lot of English people, especially from the northern part of the country.’

Classic!

Mind you, someone should tell him where Ashton's from...

[ChequeredJersey]

And Care

[Glas a du]

He'd know that from the 'drunken antics'...

[ChequeredJersey]

Of course, in Tefler's defence, this was in the Mail who are known neither for their interest in journalistic accuracy nor for their integrity. It is entirely possible that he is being put out of context, led into the answer or plain misquoted

[Glas a du]

Or part of a chat outside the interview proper. Even then you can practically hear Telfer taking the urine out of the Home Counties journo.

[Pat_Mustard]

The herald are reporting that "sources" have told them Peter Horne will start at inside centre if he recovers from a minor knock.

And Dougie Hall will start at hooker.

No mention of outside centre.

Could this be reliable?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/sport/rugby/horne-forced-to-play-waiting-game-ahead-of-twickenham-opener.20041885

[RDW]

The Scotsman is usually a lot more reliable than the Herald when it comes to knowing the team before hand - and I certainly hope that is the case again!

[RDW]

It also suggests Strokosh starting at 6 with Brown at 7 and Beattie 8.

If they are right I think there's going to be a lot of complaining on this thread! This is looking like an Andy Robinson selection!

[Solid8]

I hope that they have overheard the players who will not be playing and drawn incorrect conclusions about their replacements, I cannot understand why Hall would be picked over MacArthur.

[RDW]

Might as well put Evans at 13 now if the other rumours are correct!

[RuggerRadge2611]

Brown is not a 7, he is a 6. End of discussion.

Strokosch really isn't as hard and intimidating as his reputation suggests.

The backrow should be a no brainer.

Brown, Denton and Beattie.

[RDW]

After all the excitement of the past few weeks I’m really dreading this selection announcement now…

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Is the announcement today?

[LondonTiger]

Is Denton a 7?

Also whilst he looked good at 8 last season, he has looked some way off the pace when I have seen him this year.

[RDW]

Luckless - the papers said it was today.

LondTiger - Denton is very much an 8 or 6 but pretty much the entire Scottish posters on here want to see a back row of Brown-Denton-Beattie with one of them out of position.

And although Denton hasn't been great earlier in the season, he has been a standout performer in a poor Edinburgh team for 4 or 5 games now.

[RuggerRadge2611]

This is why I like the start of the week before the 6N so much. Before the team is picked.

This time last year I had just seen Edinburgh destroy London Irish expecting the dynamic combination of Blair and Laidlaw to lead us out against England.... we got Cusiter and Parks.

The backrow is the most important area to get right for Saturday. Brown at 7 and Strokosch starting at all will be an error.

To answer the question, Denton is not a 7, he is a 6 or an 8. However I would pick him to give us another big carrier in the pack.

England don't really have a specialist 7 either, hence we would get away with Denton at 7. We do miss Rennie and Barclay.

[Solid8]

Brown is not a 7, he is a 6. End of discussion.

Whole heartedly agree with you and as captain he needs to be leading from the front which means playing in HIS position.

really isn't as hard and intimidating as his reputation suggests.

He also has not been present at the training camp, I hope to god that this is wrong.

The backrow should be a no brainer.

Brown, Denton and Beattie.

Are you sure that you don't want one of those three playing outside centre

[alive555]

This called the *firing squad" pun fully intended

Brown at anything but 6
Hall anywhere but the bench
Evans anywhere at all

[LondonTiger]

Looking at omens:

30 years since Scotland won at Twickenham
England enter the series off the back of a record win over World champions
Scotland enter 6Ns off the back of a defeat to Tonga
Core of England team have made the HC 1/4 finals this year
Core of Scotland team finished bottom of their HC groups with just one win between them.
England management team stable.
Scotland led by a new, interim (and rather flaky) Australian.


So obviously it will be a Scotland win.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Dougie Hall, Max Evans and Strokosch starting against England at Twickenham?

[RDW]

Looking at omens:

30 years since Scotland won at Twickenham
England enter the series off the back of a record win over World champions
Scotland enter 6Ns off the back of a defeat to Tonga
Core of England team have made the HC 1/4 finals this year
Core of Scotland team finished bottom of their HC groups with just one win between them.
England management team stable.
Scotland led by a new, interim (and rather flaky) Australian.


So obviously it will be a Scotland win.

Ah you see us Scots thrive on having no hope in the world and the odds massively stacked against them - just ask the England squads of 2000, 2006 and 2008!

[RuggerRadge2611]

And the Saxons last year

[RubyGuby]

Very little between these 2 teams in the past 4 meetings and both coaches will be very aware of that

[Guest]

Jim Telfer adding a little fuel to this fire:

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176203.html

"England are not as good as they think they are," Telfer told the Daily Mail. "They were really up for it against New Zealand, very physical against a tired team. If they had played another five times, the All Blacks would have won them all.

"Unless they are careful they will end up playing in a very English way. The way Saracens play. Pretty boring. The Northampton way. Boring. It is all about forward domination, and the irony is that England have some bloody good backs. I look at the Saxons team and see someone like Wasps winger Christian Wade. He's like greased lightning."

[LondonTiger]

Ah you see us Scots thrive on having no hope in the world and the odds massively stacked against them - just ask the England squads of 2000, 2006 and 2008!

You can probably add 1990 in there as well. Oh and take out 2008 - no way could that England team have been construed as favourites.

Of course the one thing that stands out is they all took place in even years.

Logic suggests an England win - but who ever said the 6Ns was logical? England shoudl win, Scotland could win.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Very little between these 2 teams in the past 4 meetings and both coaches will be very aware of that

It depends on Johnson. If he picks the best guys available it'll be close.

If he tries to be clever and play Kelly Brown (our best player) out of position, the burden of that with the captaincy could be too much and the English pack will take advantage.

If he picks our wrecking ball backrow where our carriers can get momentum, put the English on the backfoot it'll be close. Otherwise some of the more outlandish score predictions of 50+ to England might just materialize.

[RDW]

Logic suggests an England win - but who ever said the 6Ns was logical? England shoudl win, Scotland could win.

Think that pretty much sums it up!

[RubyGuby]

"England should win, Scotland could win"

+1 ..

[LondonTiger]

Jim Telfer adding a little fuel to this fire:

"Unless they are careful they will end up playing in a very English way. The way Saracens play. Pretty boring. The Northampton way. Boring. It is all about forward domination, and the irony is that England have some bloody good backs. I look at the Saxons team and see someone like Wasps winger Christian Wade. He's like greased lightning."

Edinburgh 0 - Saracens 45
Saracens 40 - Edinburgh 7

Frankly I will take dull

[Biltong]

So who's gonna win?

[RuggerRadge2611]

Telfer is a proud Scot who wears his heart on his sleeve.

I'm not 100% sure the comments have been taken out of context or meant. However the daily mail isn't exactly a stalwart of rugby reporting.

Its a bit like those "new posters" (present company excluded) who show up around 6N time to stir up trouble...

[RuggerRadge2611]

So who's gonna win?

heart Says Scotland, head says don't be so stupid!

I would be happy for Scotland to be thretening and attack England lie we did at Murrayfiled last year, but please don't butcher every chance we get.

If we can dominate the set piece we can win. If not, it'll be a long day at HQ.

England by 3

[bluestonevedder]

So who's gonna win?

Such a tough question, I'm really not sure. Certainly Scotland will be up for it, and I reckon they will put up one heck of a physcial challenge, but I think England might just pip it in the last 10 or 20. England by 7 for me....I think...

[lostinwales]

The English way is all about forward domination followed by handling errors in the backs. I dont think the Scottish way is that different

On the odd occasion when there isnt a handling error England can look very good - we tend to move the ball very fast - but it never occurs as often as I'd like

[Solid8]

Scott Johnson talking more sense on the beeb:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21238204

I cannot believe that a man who talks like that would do something as foolish as the selection rumours in the Herald would have have us think. Time will tell.

[nobbled]

I think the set piece battle will be crucial - in particular the line-out. As we will no doubt be kicking away the majority of our bloody possession, we have to ensure that the line-out functions well on our own throw and be a pain in the @rse on Scotlands.
Scotland has a decent back-line (depending on who gets picked) and some very tough characters with ball in hand in the forwards- we can't afford to give away possession cheaply even for territory.

[Breadvan]

So who's gonna win?

England by 5 or at a canter..

[AlastairW]

After all the excitement of the past few weeks I’m really dreading this selection announcement now…

Same this side of the border as well mate.

Good article written by John Beattie for Auntie:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21195701

4 days to go!

[beshocked]

Ashton vs Visser again - looking forward to that contest!


England should hold the advantage in the backline but it's crucial to the balance who gets the 13 shirt. Personally I would go for Joseph as he's an actual 13 partnered with Barritt.

I definitely do not want to see Barritt-Farrell centre combo.

[Bathman_in_London]

Jim Telfer adding a little fuel to this fire:

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176203.html

"England are not as good as they think they are," Telfer told the Daily Mail. "They were really up for it against New Zealand, very physical against a tired team. If they had played another five times, the All Blacks would have won them all.

"Unless they are careful they will end up playing in a very English way. The way Saracens play. Pretty boring. The Northampton way. Boring. It is all about forward domination, and the irony is that England have some bloody good backs. I look at the Saxons team and see someone like Wasps winger Christian Wade. He's like greased lightning."

Have I been living in a cave and missed the 'Scottish way', a mix of aggressive defence, glorious backs moves and searing pace?!

Serious though, Scotland have a new coach and no pressure on them, plus they will be desperate to make up for that awful performance against Tonga. If this were at Murrayfield I would back them, but as it is I think home advantage will see England home, I think it will be a scrappy game with Farrell's boot being the deciding factor.

[RDW]

Andrew Cotter saying on Tiwtter that Horne and Maitland are due to start…the Herald might be correct!

[Solid8]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Pat_Mustard]

I could cope with Horne and Maitland, just please no Hall or Strokosch!

Actually even with them in it won't be as bad as some of Robinson's selections, especially this fixture last year, and I reckon they could still do it. Traditional Scottish overoptimism can't be put off that easily!

[RDW]

It's not Horne and Maitland I'm bothered about, and would only be a little disappointed in Hall, it's moving Brown to 7 and choosing Strokosh at 6 over Denton that will be my main annoyance.

That will all pail into insignificance though if Max Evans is at 13...

[Solid8]

The U20s and the ladies team has been announced on twitter so the build up the the big disappointment is well under way.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

To tell the truth, Doug Hall has been just as good as McArthur over the past few weeks in Glasgow colours... But I'd still be disappointed for Pat if he didn't make the team. Stroks shouldn't start. Denton or Harley for the 7 shirt yes but no Stroks... Horne could be paired with Scott?

[George Carlin]

Strokosch is flying back to the country today - his wife had a little boy in France last week and he obviously has just been given 'the pass'.

As has been mentioned above, Strokosch is not better at 6 than Denton but similarly will do a job for 40 minutes provided Denton gets on to run riot in the second half. Strokosch frequently does not live up to the hype but did put in a massive shift in the autumn Australia win (only Rennie made more tackles).

Biltong young feller me lad - I am deeply sceptical of anyone who claims to be able to predict this one with any accuracy. England are missing keystones in the front row and midfield but comprise a far more settled team as a whole and one whose players have been in good club form.

Across the XV (and arguably the XXIII too), Scotland comprise individuals with a huge amount of promise but who (as has been pointed out ad nauseum above) are relatively untried as a cohesive whole. It's all relative and last year's results count for relatively little as both teams have improved since then.

One thing is noteworthy though, and so I'll mention it only quietly. The step-up in quality from 'then to now' in terms of players that have traditionally comprised Scotland's "problem positions" over the past 5 years has been unarguable and marked, almost without exceptions.

Compare Scott MacLeod to Richie Gray, Nikki Walker to Sean Maitland, Simon Danielli to Tim Visser, Hugo Southwell (sorry Hersh) to Stuart Hogg, Graham Morrison to Matt Scott and Rhubarb Jackson to 'Desperate' Dan Parks or Phil 'Good' God'man. Like night and day. Or at least, like a dull evening in Aberdeenshire and day.

[Pat_Mustard]

Even if there's not much in it between the hookers, Johnson has said he'd go with youth in 50-50 calls, and if Hall starts it's not a good start for Johnson doing what he says he will

[Biltong]

Well I will be supporting the Scots, I think it is time for a resurgence of Scottish rugby, regardless of their resources and clubs not performing the way they should.

England is so 1902, I am over them, I want to see a Scottish team that go in for 80 minutes with no fear of failure, the mentality of a buldozer clearing the way forward for the masses and the spirit filled with passion and pride.

Last year they lost a few games they could have pulled a win, and their game against Italy was just so disappointing.

So come on Scotland, they can take away the win, but they will never take your pride.

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