England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[blackcanelion]

Just read ESPN's take on the match: http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176453.html

The key comment is probably:

" Stuart Lancaster's side entered this game under pressure to back up their dazzling victory over New Zealand in December with their critics suggesting that their win against the world champions was a freak result. Rest assured it was nothing of the sort. This England side are the real deal and their rivals for the northern hemisphere crown should heed this warning - on this evidence they are getting better.

The Scots may not be of the same calibre as New Zealand but even the All Blacks would have struggled to live with England again today. The hosts fizzed throughout, fuelled by priceless belief that is set to lay the foundation for the next stage of England's development that they hope will culminate in Rugby World Cup glory in 2015. "

I'm not sure. I'm only a part time England fan to be sure. But isn't this a case of the press building the team up only to crush it mercilessly if they lose. I think this team is playing well and could become the real deal. But I don't think we are likely to get a real feeling for how they are going until later on in the tournament. If fans are honest the November tour or in reality next year.

England won and did it convincingly, but keep the perspective. England's record at Twickerham is great. They haven't lost to Scotland in 30 years at the ground. The win is pretty normal. In terms of the professional era neither the margin of victory, try or penalty counts are outstanding yesterday for an England/Scotland game in London. In fact they are pretty much bang in line with the average).

So my point is enjoy the win, ignore the hype.

[nathan]

"Farrell is my main focus of interest - will (can) he marshal an attacking style against a much superior side?"

Will SL have the balls to let him try and do that??

I honestly don't know. After initial misgivings about SL and in particular Andy Farrell, I'm slowly coming around to appreciate his appointment (leaving aside any necessity to sack MJ).

We must remember that the perceived 'progress' over the past twelve months is pretty stuttering - indeed up 'til the ABs game, it was at best flat-lining.

Nobody should be blinded into think that one one-off good performance against NZ and one fair one against Scotland should obscure the overall drabness of our performances in the Summer and the Autumn against SA and Australia.

So as David Cameron might say, your question is a very good one. If SL/AF have the balls to get OF out of the pocket against Ireland, France and Wales (they don't have to win each) and play with attacking intent, then I may buy into the new regime.

But until then I'd describe myself as optimistic but sceptical.

How are you measuring this progress to come to the conclusion of their progress flat lining at best? I think we've consistently improved since SL took over. We may not have won every game, but I think the players and more importantly the team have certainly shown it.

[nathan]

Just read ESPN's take on the match: http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176453.html

The key comment is probably:

" Stuart Lancaster's side entered this game under pressure to back up their dazzling victory over New Zealand in December with their critics suggesting that their win against the world champions was a freak result. Rest assured it was nothing of the sort. This England side are the real deal and their rivals for the northern hemisphere crown should heed this warning - on this evidence they are getting better.

The Scots may not be of the same calibre as New Zealand but even the All Blacks would have struggled to live with England again today. The hosts fizzed throughout, fuelled by priceless belief that is set to lay the foundation for the next stage of England's development that they hope will culminate in Rugby World Cup glory in 2015. "

I'm not sure. I'm only a part time England fan to be sure. But isn't this a case of the press building the team up only to crush it mercilessly if they lose. I think this team is playing well and could become the real deal. But I don't think we are likely to get a real feeling for how they are going until later on in the tournament. If fans are honest the November tour or in reality next year.

England won and did it convincingly, but keep the perspective. England's record at Twickerham is great. They haven't lost to Scotland in 30 years at the ground. The win is pretty normal. In terms of the professional era neither the margin of victory, try or penalty counts are outstanding yesterday for an England/Scotland game in London. In fact they are pretty much bang in line with the average).

So my point is enjoy the win, ignore the hype.

Yeah that's the typical media, having said that after lots of people were saying the NZ result was a freak result they were always going to print something along the lines of that if we won.

[mystiroakey]

Black . True we need to ignore hype. But sl and our players are just cracking on and not taking anything for granted..

I think I can safely say for almost everyone that it isn't about England's wins, but about the way England are playing that is the thing to be positive about

[bsando]

Congratulations England fans! I have to say I was very very impressed with youngs and Farrell. They added a lot of dynamism to England's performance.

I generally found England boring to watch when MJ was coach, but under Lancaster England are a really exciting team. Good luck for rest of 6 nations!

[Duty281]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdFDW6vcsQ

This for me was try of the weekend (so far). Haskell turns it over brilliantly, Youngs slices through the Scottish defence, quick ball gets it to Farrell who throws an outrageous pass for Parling to trot over the line unopposed. That video also offers further evidence about how great it sounds without commentary!

[mystiroakey]

What a pass.. Bammmmmmm

[Hood83]

On the Twelvetrees front, I fear that once again people are seeing one performance and seeing a career. Billy's performance was impressive yesterday but if put into perspective, it has to measured in the context of the strength of the opposition - Scotland. I thought that if anything, 36 pushed his own envelope a little to hard and forced things a little and overall accuracy was lost. England should in my opinion have put fifty points on the board.

For me the stand-out improvement came from Owen Farrell who played on the gain line and not 5m back. But again the proof of the pudding will be in Dublin next week where the opposition and the environment will be much less comfortable.

International coaches notice stuff. 36 will be analysed to the nth degree and I doubt that he'll be picked over Manu (if fit) because Ireland away is a different kettle of fish to Scotland at home and caution will probably prevail.

What Andy Farrell/SL plan for Owen is intriguing. I hope that they order more of the same front foot tactics from him in order to develop the burgeoning talent in the back line. But this, I repeat, is Ireland - a step up in class and difficulty.

I don't think we watched the same game. I didn't see Farrell anywhere near the gain-line, he was still playing in a quarterback type pocket. He'll need to play a lot flatter against Ireland. Definite improvement in distribution though, and far less aimless kicking. He's definitely come on, but I still believe that when both are at their best, Flood is an all-round more accomplished player.

Going to re-watch the game today so will look again at Farrell's positioning and see if i've got it/him all wrong.

[Duty281]

By the way, did anyone see what Tom Youngs did off the ball to merit Launchbury's try being disallowed? Is it a matter for the citing commissioner?

[nathan]

By the way, did anyone see what Tom Youngs did off the ball to merit Launchbury's try being disallowed? Is it a matter for the citing commissioner?

I'm not sure, but just before the incident you could see the Scotland 3 on top of him with a swinging arm. Couldn't tell if it was a punch or anything but looks they were at each other a wee wile.

[LondonTiger]

By the way, did anyone see what Tom Youngs did off the ball to merit Launchbury's try being disallowed? Is it a matter for the citing commissioner?

I was wondering what he actually did. Of course it made little difference in the end as Parling scored from a phase of play immediately following Scotlands kick to touch (well it made a difference to Launchbury). I doubt it will be cited as the TJ was quite certain what he had seen, while there seems to have been no TV footage to review and over-rule.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

It was a high tackle wasnt it? Just took a long time for it to be communicated in.
I thought Ben had possibly knocked on whilst fiddling with the ball in the ruck just before Launchberry went over as well

[Geordie]

Whilst im certainly not getting carried away and forsee a deafet in this 6n......

Would anyone agree that whereas under Johnson the players didnt seem to want to be part of it..or it seemed like a chore to be in the squad should i say...yet under this current coaching team the players actually seem to want to be part of it and are bringing their best form and exhuberance...

[nathan]

Whilst im certainly not getting carried away and forsee a deafet in this 6n......

Would anyone agree that whereas under Johnson the players didnt seem to want to be part of it..or it seemed like a chore to be in the squad should i say...yet under this current coaching team the players actually seem to want to be part of it and are bringing their best form and exhuberance...

Not at all, I think the difference between this setup and the last is the background staff. I think some of the older players that are no longer a part of the setup didn't buy into the plan put in place.

[belovedfrosties]

Although this was Scotland and thus not the best of teams at present i think it should be noted that in something like the last 6 games between us, the winning margin has been on average 4 points. To me, this result shows a marked improvement, as does the performance. We dominated in terms of metres made, passes, line breaks, offloads etc.

Also, for all the hype about Beattie, Morgan made more carries, metres and had beaten more defenders in his 45 minutes on the pitch than in Beatties 80.

[sickofwendy]

Will Morgan be fit next week and if not will waldrom or kvesic be brought in.

[belovedfrosties]

Now news yet wendy, i'd have thought that Vunipola would come onto the bench with Haskell starting.

[lostinwales]

Will Morgan be fit next week and if not will waldrom or kvesic be brought in.

Has to be Haskell to 8 then a new back row. Be fantastic if it was kvesic

[sickofwendy]

I thought billy v was injured.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Haskell deserves a start, although Lnacster may opt to stick waldrom in at 8 as a like for like. lets not forget he was the starter only a couple of games ago

[nathan]

During the anthems someone commented on the singing, she's actually a rugby player!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2272628/Laura-Wright-After-singing-national-anthem-81-000-rugby-fans-Englands-voice-play-local-team.html#axzz2JsHUe2dP

[DaveM]

On the Twelvetrees front, I fear that once again people are seeing one performance and seeing a career. Billy's performance was impressive yesterday but if put into perspective, it has to measured in the context of the strength of the opposition - Scotland. I thought that if anything, 36 pushed his own envelope a little to hard and forced things a little and overall accuracy was lost. England should in my opinion have put fifty points on the board.

What Andy Farrell/SL plan for Owen is intriguing. I hope that they order more of the same front foot tactics from him in order to develop the burgeoning talent in the back line. But this, I repeat, is Ireland - a step up in class and difficulty.

I don't think Billy's performance was a surprise to anyone who has been following him over the past 3 or so years - he's clearly a talent, and appears to be one who relishes the big stage. Since 2003 England have played a lot of sides less good than this Scotland side, and how many outstanding IC performances have their been in that time? And I have no idea what you mean by pushing the envelope too hard - England are trying to play an expansive game, they picked an expansive IC and that means mistakes are inevitable (not that I can think of many he made).

Mike Catt has been working with Farrell - as I recall he sat him down on the SA tour and they talked about how he had to develop his game. Farrell strikes me as intelligent and hard working with a decent amount of talent, so it's not surprising he's improving. England are fortunate to have him and Freddie Burns, potentially for a decade or more.

I'd also say that the idea England made no progress under SL until the AB game is a very strange one. They obviously developed through last seasons 6 Nations, then went on a difficult tour and had their best performance in the final game, they were poor aginst Australia, then should have beaten SA at home (remember how MJ's side were absolutely smashed by SA in 2010?) before doing something to the All Blacks no England side has ever done. In just one year SL has turned the national side around and completely rebuilt it whilst delivering steadily more impressive performances. I don't know if England are ready to win a Grand Slam yet, but they are moving that way.

[TJ1]

So my point is enjoy the win, ignore the hype.

Indeed - Scotland allowed England plenty of uncontested / quick ball. England are a workmanlike team with no obvious weak points - and playing as team. Hats of to Lancaster. He has made a real team out of this lot. I had hoped England would not keep him on and we could get Lancaster (the Scotland under 20 cap) as Scotland coach

[Tramptastic]

What i'm most chuffed about from this first weekend of six nations is the quality and quantity of trys on offer! There's been some absolute stunners - Parling's, Hogg's, Castrogiovanni's, Cian Healy's and Zebo's just to name a few! Pretty glad to have caught all the games this weekend (despite Scotlands loss) and long may this try scoring trend continue!

[lostinwales]

I also think one of the best things about the England set up is that you see good players continuing to develop and turn into better ones. Parling for one was only 'competent' before this season now hes being mentioned in a lot of Lions teams

[bedfordwelsh]

Out of interest will Manu be fit and would you guys change a winning side to get him back in.

Could Manu and 36 work together?

[Alex_Germany]

Out of interest will Manu be fit and would you guys change a winning side to get him back in.

Could Manu and 36 work together?

That's Lancaster's biggest (welcome) selection headache.

Yes 36 and Manu can work together, and could be devestating. Together they offer more in attack than Barritt and Tuilagi. But Barritt organises the defence and is probably the best defensive centre in World rugby. And he's done nothing wrong.

It's a close call and perhaps should be made after examing the strengths and weaknesses of Ireland's backline.

[ChequeredJersey]

Manu and 36 were a club combo last year so should work togethwr

[Rinsure]

Okay, morning all,

Sooo.. top weekend on the rugby front. Wales Lost, England won, and Italy beat France. Best case scenario, as I see it

Mostly agree with a lot of what I've read on this thread since the game, however, can someone explain to me why Ben Youngs was running flat across the pitch so bloody much?

Once or twice perhaps, looking for the runner on the angle, but he seemed to be doing it more-or-less all game, and it was a major contributor to us eating up space when a decent straightening of the line would have afforded us more opportunity? Perhaps I'm missing something.

Great break to set up Parling's try after The Hask ripped it, and Farrell threw a beaut of a pass. Then Care comes on and scores!

Can't wait for Sunday now!

[Jimpy]

It seems that Ben Youngs can't do right for doing wrong...

I thought he had a great game and kept Scotland guessing for most of the match.

As i'd said before, England weren't going to have to play at their best to win, and although they weren't far from turning in a complete performance, they made some silly mistakes - which is I think, pretty much were the only opportunities England gave Scotland to score. The 'mighty' Scots look ordinary. Well done!

[Biltong]

I agree, Youngs does keep defences guessing, but he also has quite a bit of pace.

[Jimpy]

I agree, Youngs does keep defences guessing, but he also has quite a bit of pace.

The only player I think I would criticise is Goode. Anonymous for most of the match and missed the tackle that allowed Scotland their first try.

[RDW]

Aye Hogg isn't exactly renowned for his strength but he ran over Goode like a door mat!

[yappysnap]

I think it was just a case of Youngs getting back in to his groove, he did run sideways a lot, but as the game wore on that changed and he started making more yardage, just look at the lumbering oaf Phillips for how a scrum half shouldn't play.

Ireland will be a much sterner test but already I can't wait. The biggest thing for Lancaster this week will be getting the forwards comfy with the offloading game, too often there were silly knock ons and forced passes by the pack in particular as they tried to over play the game plan. Other then that it's just a case of choosing the centres, back three and 23 shirt.

[Jimpy]

Aye Hogg isn't exactly renowned for his strength but he ran over Goode like a door mat!

I know Hogg has improved his game under the high ball, but his main threat is as a counter attacking FB. And so it proved. That loose kick to Hogg allowed him to make some big yardage. I'm trying hard to remember now, but Scotland really were only able to get hold of the ball when England did something daft like kick it down Hogg's throat, and the fact that they made the most of those scant opportunities should give some crumbs of comfort.

However, I would not be suprised if Italy cause problems at Murrayfield next week.

[beshocked]

I have been critical of B.Youngs but I think he did well on the weekend.

His break led to the Parling try.

[propdavid_london]

I thought that Brown and Cole were the 2 players that were split on that 1st Scots try.

[ChequeredJersey]

I thought that Brown and Cole were the 2 players that were split on that 1st Scots try.

They were, Brown drifted to cover the man outside but did so too soon and Cole couldn't get in to cover Hogg who split them, though frankly, broken field or not, you'd expect another back to be out there in place of Cole. Then Hogg ran straight through Goode

[AlastairW]

I have been critical of B.Youngs but I think he did well on the weekend.

His break led to the Parling try.

Agreed. Yeah, he went for the sideways run a few times. Was it looking for gaps? or making them? It may not make the meters but pulling holes in defenses and passing to a player to hammer through them for a break, or at least go over the gain is valid play and i can't critise it. Youngs was looking good, but you have to credit the forwards for giving him clean ball he needed to keep it fast. Care came on and picked up from where youngs left off, it's still Youngs shirt to lose as it stands.

[Jimpy]

The quick recycling killed Scotland, they couldn't get anywhere near the ball and were pulled all over the field. I think England had about 70% posession didn't they?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

The quick recycling killed Scotland, they couldn't get anywhere near the ball and were pulled all over the field. I think England had about 70% posession didn't they?

62% according to ESPN.

But then Wales had 63% against ireland, ....

[Jimpy]

Yes, but Wales are rubbish.

[funnyExiledScot]

Yes, but Wales are rubbish.

No. They're lazy.

[dummy_half]

I have been critical of B.Youngs but I think he did well on the weekend.

His break led to the Parling try.

Agreed. Yeah, he went for the sideways run a few times. Was it looking for gaps? or making them? It may not make the meters but pulling holes in defenses and passing to a player to hammer through them for a break, or at least go over the gain is valid play and i can't critise it. Youngs was looking good, but you have to credit the forwards for giving him clean ball he needed to keep it fast. Care came on and picked up from where youngs left off, it's still Youngs shirt to lose as it stands.

All good points - personally I thought Youngs varied his game nicely, in sometimes just passing quickly from the base to Farrell or to players coming at pace, other times taking the ball to the defensive line and looking for runners to pop through holes (very rugby league), and on a couple of occasions ruinning himself. However, the key to all of this was that the previous phase got over the gain line, the ball was well laid back and the first guys hitting the ruck drove beyond the ball and cleared out. Makes the scrum half's job easier when the ball comes back quickly and cleanly like that. Same thing was still happening when Care came on, and he looked equally sharp.

[R!skysports]

Yes, but Wales are rubbish.

No. They're lazy.

No, they are too small

[nathan]

Interesting to see that Haskell made 7 tackles (missed none) in his limited time on the pitch. He did look hungry for work.

[dummy_half]

Interesting to see that Haskell made 7 tackles (missed none) in his limited time on the pitch. He did look hungry for work.

Made a couple of good carries in the tight as well - not as flashy as Morgan bowling over a couple of would-be tacklers in open field, but valuable none the less in making potentially bad ball into good.

I found it interesting that although he came on for Morgan and has quite a bit of experience at 8, he tended to pack down at blindside and let Wood fill the 8 spot.

If Morgan doesn't recover for Sunday, I'd be quite happy to see Haskell given a start alongside Robshaw and Wood.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Might get a bit confusing for them with all 3 having played across the entire backrow !

[nathan]

Might get a bit confusing for them with all 3 having played across the entire backrow !

Well Haskell has certainly had his "simple" moments.

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