England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[RubyGuby]

Even if there's not much in it between the hookers, Johnson has said he'd go with youth in 50-50 calls, and if Hall starts it's not a good start for Johnson doing what he says he will

Johnson plays a lot of mind games to try to outfox the opposition - I wouldn't read too much into his ramblings

[RDW]

If Stokosh is picked I can only assume Denton hasn't recovered from his knee knock? Especially if Strokosh is only back at training today..

[Solid8]

their game against Italy was just so disappointing.

Tell me about it I parted with a large amount of money to combine a romantic weekend with some "good" rugby. After the rugby I was in such a foul mood and so drunk that the romantic weekend was absolutely ruined, something that the other half is only just beginning to forgive me for!

[Biltong]

their game against Italy was just so disappointing.

Tell me about it I parted with a large amount of money to combine a romantic weekend with some "good" rugby. After the rugby I was in such a foul mood and so drunk that the romantic weekend was absolutely ruined, something that the other half is only just beginning to forgive me for!

Sorry to say it mate, but the fundamentals of planning that weekend was just wrong.

If you won you would have been celebrating and romance would have been the furthest thing from your mind anyway.

A romantic weekend should never include sport. Never ever.

[Solid8]

But it seemed like such a good idea at the time!

[RuggerRadge2611]

time to tighten up those sphincters lads... Scotland team to be named within the hour!

Ultimate Nightmare = Evans at 13

Tollerable = Strokosch at 6

Shame for MacArthur = Hall at 2

I have to say, I though Hall had a shocking reputation of lineout accuracy (worse than Ford). I can only assume that has changed...

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

The Glasgow lineout has been a weapon all season, and it hasn't been a problem which hooker has started. Although that may have something to do with the 4 lineout options they usually start with nowadays... Pat's probably more noticeable in the loose but Doug doesn't shirk his tackles or the dirty work on the floor... The only thing I can see keeping Pat out of this game is probably his ankle sprain. If he's not been able to train fully all week he might just be better not starting!

[Solid8]

[AlastairW]

Well I will be supporting the Scots...

That's it Bilt! You've forced my hand come RC time! .... I've always wanted to go to NZ, and i might have to buy myself a shiney new black shirt, with a silver fern!

*this post is firmly foot in cheek

[beshocked]

If Strokosch is picked at 6 as an England fan I would be elated but as a Saracens fan I would really feel sorry for Kelly Brown.

Strokosch is perhaps the most overrated player in your squad.

A Scott/ Evans or Lamont centre combo doesn't strike much fear.

[George Carlin]

If Strokosch is picked at 6 as an England fan I would be elated but as a Saracens fan I would really feel sorry for Kelly Brown.

Strokosch is perhaps the most overrated player in your squad.

A Scott/ Evans or Lamont centre combo doesn't strike much fear.

Not true Beshocked - if Schlong or the Squashed Goblin are chosen at 13, it's asbestos underpants time for Scotland fans everywhere.

[Glas a du]

you're clever

[RDW]

Team announced in 45 minutes...

[RuggerRadge2611]

Team announced in 45 minutes...

Someone else is lurking on twitter

[reallybored]

If he goes for Hall over MacArthur I'll be very disappointed, MacArthur has been first choice for Glasgow this season so not starting him would be a cowardly selection.

Same goes for Harley and either Strokosch or Denton, Harley has been so consistent for Glasgow and definitely deserves a chance ahead of the other two.

Would prefer to see Scott start and Horne on the bench but wouldn't be the end of the world if that was the other way round.

[Solid8]

Good when they make the announcement I may be able to tear myself away from twitter and do some work!

[Captain_Sensible]

Has anyone seen any hints about the outside centre selection? I dread seeing Max Evans’ name there.

[Omelette]

To add my two pence to what I think the England team may be...

Most of it picks itself, the only debatable points really are loose head in the absence of Corbs. Hooker, with the emergence of youngs in the autumn. Centre, in the absence of tuilagi. And the back three makeup with foden back.

As for hooker I think he will revert to Hartley, his experience in the absence of Corbs will be crucial against the Scottish dogfight. At loose head I would go marler, he didn't go that badly in the autumn and deserves another pop.

At centre JJ will come straight in for tuilagi. This will cause the least disruption, I think he also like the defensive due of Farrell and barritt, and I must admit, I think it looks solid too.

I see the back three as a shoot out between foden, brown and Goode for two spots (with Ashton a shoe in for the other). I think he will pick it according to the weather. If its wet he will play brown at fb for his solidity under the high ball and longer boot with foden on the wing. If it is dry I fear brown will lose out to Goode.

Anyway, should be a great game, no one is underestimating the scots. Can't wait.

[RDW]

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 71 caps, 8 tries, 40 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 7 caps
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 15 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) vice-captain 13 caps, 2 tries, 11 conversions and 22 penalties, 98 points
1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice-captain, 5 caps
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors) 39 caps, 1 try, 5 points
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 49 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 27 caps, 1 try, 5 points
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, 52 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 16 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 63 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 15 caps
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 17 caps, 1 try, 5 points
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 47 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 9 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 conversion, 2 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 32 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
Not considered due to injury: Peter Horne, Chris Cusiter, Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Ross Rennie (Edinburgh Rugby) and Scott Lawson (London Irish).

[George Carlin]

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby)

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice-captain,
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain : wrong position
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

Not considered due to injury: Peter Horne , Chris Cusiter, Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Ross Rennie (Edinburgh Rugby) and Scott Lawson (London Irish).

[RDW]

You're a bit slow GC!

[Pat_Mustard]

so Horne didn't recover in time, disappointing back row selection as suspected, and Hall starts with MacArthur not even in the squad. And Weir was supposed to have been cut from the squad. At least Max Evans isn't starting!

[GLove39]

So Dougie Hall's first start for 6 years..?
And the 'classic' make Brown Captain & play him out of position

[Biltong]

Well I will be supporting the Scots...

That's it Bilt! You've forced my hand come RC time! .... I've always wanted to go to NZ, and i might have to buy myself a shiney new black shirt, with a silver fern!

*this post is firmly foot in cheek

I know you won't mate, you love us uncouth Saffers too much.

[RDW]

Yeah I was wondering that - I thought Weir was dropped from the squad??

Have to say this has got Andy Robinson written all over it. Maybe it was actually SJ pulling the strings when Robinson was in charge??

[GLove39]

Laidlaw & Ryan Grant vice captains.

[Solid8]

All in all, not too bad. Evans is not starting although I'm a bit worried that now we have a cutting edge with the fast boys out wide they won't get service with SLamont being there but there wasn't too many other options. I am disappointed that MacArthur isn't even on the bench, given the recent form of our hookers I think he would have been a better choice than Ford. Grant must have really stepped up in the training camp, hopefully this is a sign that he is a great player in the making. Lastly; BROWN SHOULD BE ON THE BLINDSIDE.

[RDW]

Can understand Laidlaw, but Ryan Grant??

[beshocked]

Good to see Scotland's backrow selection is messed up yet again as an England fan.

Poor Kelly Brown though. The overrated Strokosch gets the nod at 6 yet again despite being far inferior and in not as good form.

Stop picking KB out of position FFS. Saracens build up his confidence only for Scotland to drop it to rock bottom again!

[RDW]

Have to say - we're going to see a mean, snarling, p*ssed off Denton coming off the bench, which can only be a good thing!

Here's hoping he starts V Italy though.

[Pat_Mustard]

I guess Weir had to be brought back in when Horne picked up his injury.

This is not ideal but compared to a lot of Robinson's selections it could be worse. I still have faith!

[George Carlin]

All joking aside:

1. Hall instead of MacArthur is, I feel, unwarranted but not unjustifiable.

2. With Horne not recovering in time, Schlong at 13 is still better than the SG at 13.

3. Undecided about Strokosch. I think that the plan is clear to keep Denton's powder dry until the second half, which I can see the sense in. I can only assume that Strokes was deemed less versatile and it's certainly true that he's even less of a 7 than Kelly. There was no 'good' choice here - I think that most of us can agree about that.

What this selection does give us is a puncher's chance.

And that has to be one of the best Scottish packs I've ever seen.

[nickj]

The Herald called it right after all. I'm going to stick my neck out and say I'm broadly happy with Johnson's squad.

I'm not too fussed about our lack of a true fetcher. Kelly is at least equal to Robshaw and Stroks is fast becoming a legend at Perpignan.

Personally I don't think Stroks is overrated at all and Johnson has at least indicated things may change (in the near future) by saying Brown's only captain for this game.

Its as we all expected in the backs and to be honest we look more than solid in the forwards.

On the bench, I would have said Heathcote had more form than Wee Dunc Weir and I'm actually quite pleased to see Max Evans in there. He, Ford, Pygos and Dents offer some real impact!

Bring it on

[Solid8]

3. Undecided about Strokosch. I think that the plan is clear to keep Denton's powder dry until the second half, which I can see the sense in. I can only assume that Strokes was deemed less versatile and it's certainly true that he's even less of a 7 than Kelly. There was no 'good' choice here - I think that most of us can agree about that.

I would imagine that the coaches are also undecided about him seeing as he hasn't been at the f@#king training camp!

[MacKnocked-on]

A very strange replacements bench I would say. Cross shouldn't be anywhere near this squad, he simply isn't a good enough prop. I'd have also had Reid in ahead of Low on current form. Suspect Ford is in because of experience but he's very very lucky.
Also can't understand why Weir (little gametime and poor current form) is in ahead of Heathcote who has at least been playing for Bath.

[Pat_Mustard]

I hope Brown isn't under instruction to play the role of a classic openside, they should be going with left and right flankers under the circumstances, in which case shirt number will make no difference. They probably would have done the same if Denton had started. He will be a good impact sub though and Weir offers more of a territory controlling option.

Actually I'm happier with this than I'd have thought I would be. Considering we're missing our first and second choice outside centres and our first, second and third choice opensides, it's not too bad

[RuggerRadge2611]

Disapointed.

We had the chance to play a really dangerous backrow combination with the ball in hand instead. Stroks has gotten the call.

I admit I have seen basicly nothing of him at Perpingan but he wasn't great in the Autumn either.

[Guest]

Does anyone know when the England Team is announced?

[Solid8]

Also can't understand why Weir (little gametime and poor current form) is in ahead of Heathcote who has at least been playing for Bath.

Andy Robinson royally screwed Heathcote over by giving him his first cap the way he did, maybe there has been a decision made to try and ease him back into the match-day squad by playing him in the As.

[beshocked]

George Carlin I thought if you picked the right backrow you might stand a chance.

Picking your best player IMO out of position is definitely a big advantage to England. I can now see England winning the breakdown battle and the game with some to spare.

The KB at 7 experiment failed miserably in the AIs and I expect it to fail again. It also shows a lack of confidence in Kelly Brown.

He doesn't think KB is the best 6 in Scotland which he obviously his. I don't know what more KB could have done to earn the 6 shirt.

Perhaps Strokosch has some incriminating information on the SRU?

[reallybored]

Very disappointed that MacArthur hasn't been given a chance and the same goes for Harley. I just worry that we've seen so many quiet performances from Strokosch and Hall's generation of forwards, it'd have been great to inject some new blood and enthusiasm into the pack.

Would have preferred Heathcote on the bench ahead of Weir.

But all and all it's a good selection with plenty of promise.

Wish they'd tell us what the ETA on Rennie is.

[MacKnocked-on]

I'll be interested to see what sort of A team is selected, surely must get named very soon for Friday's match.

[nobbled]

Does anyone know when the England Team is announced?

I think it was Thursday?

[bsando]

Not having MacArthur is a huge shock to me. I know he's still young but he played very well last month or so and I thought he would be on the bench at the very least for sure.

[Solid8]

George Carlin I thought if you picked the right backrow you might stand a chance.

Picking your best player IMO out of position is definitely a big advantage to England. I can now see England winning the breakdown battle and the game with some to spare.

The KB at 7 experiment failed miserably in the AIs and I expect it to fail again. It also shows a lack of confidence in Kelly Brown.

He doesn't think KB is the best 6 in Scotland which he obviously his. I don't know what more KB could have done to earn the 6 shirt.

Perhaps Strokosch has some incriminating information on the SRU?

IMO Beattie is our best backrow player and he is in position an excellent ball carrier and ball handler.

More likely that Brown is the least worst option to play out of position at 7, Strokosch is mean but not versatile.

[George Carlin]

George Carlin I thought if you picked the right backrow you might stand a chance.

Picking your best player IMO out of position is definitely a big advantage to England. I can now see England winning the breakdown battle and the game with some to spare.

The KB at 7 experiment failed miserably in the AIs and I expect it to fail again. It also shows a lack of confidence in Kelly Brown.

He doesn't think KB is the best 6 in Scotland which he obviously his. I don't know what more KB could have done to earn the 6 shirt.

Perhaps Strokosch has some incriminating information on the SRU?

Not entirely sure that's true young man.

Brown is the more experienced player and does have some (very limited) experience at 7 - certainly more than Stroker. I don't think that this makes our loosies irretrievably wounded as you suggest - it just means that we have one big hitting ball carrier in Denton not on the pitch. It's six of one and pick 'em which was the best option and it would have been discussed thoroughly with the players and Dean Ryan. There's a lot we cannot know about the selection.

Come away from the set piece into open play and it will matter much less.

[gregortree]

Robinson also screwed up Tait's early England career, with premature selection, as a youngster, followed by a just as abrupt dropping.

[RuggerRadge2611]

my changes :

Backs
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

Forwards
1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors) Pat MacArthur
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) Kelly Brown [C]
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C] Dave Denton
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) Dougie Hall
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) Alasdair Strokosch
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) Tom Heathcoate
23 Max Evans (Castres) Greig Tonks, Alex Grove, Dunbar, my maw, RDW Scotland anyone but the metrosexual hob goblin.

Still, we have some big men in that team and some powerful strike runners. The more we get Beattie, Grant, Gray and Lamont clattering the ball up in contact and then bring in Visser, Hogg adn Maitland we can do some damage.

I would have been happier with my team but as stated earlier it could have been a lot lot worse. Parks last year anyone?

[gregortree]

Dean Ryan knows a few of the Scots players from his Glaws days, including Strokes & Big Jim, and the 2 Lawsons.

[RDW]

Radge - I would thank you for selecting me, but you've chosen me after yer maw!

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