England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[Duty281]

We'll soon see boys

Indeed we will, there's a good forecast for Saturday weather-wise.

[bluestonevedder]

Yeh, perfect weather for rugby. Should be great.

If it were torrential rain, Scotland for the win!

[nobbled]

Looking at that Scottish pack - there's really not a lot wrong with it is there!
I rate Hogg at full-back as well, a real danger running back at us - English defence is good, but not exactly pacey...

[doctor_grey]

Just saw the line-ups now. What's with Lancaster using fullbacks on the wing? I thought using Foden on the wing last year was a stop-gap since there wasn't anyone else. And he acquitted himself quite well. Buit I thought it a one-off (or two-off in Foden's case). Of course, I'd rather see Mako Vunipola on the wing instead of Strettle.

'sup with that?

[123456789]

If I'm honest England on the whole will have a better side but I still think there are some areas and positions in which Scotland are distinctly better, at full-back it is pretty even, Hogg is more solid under high balls than last year and can kick for miles, but Visser and Maitland are both big, strong and fast players whereas Brown, who I have a soft spot for because he's a Quins player, won't have the same depth of knowledge as a winger as Visser and Maitland. I also think Visser and Maitland will come into the backline a lot more. In the second row I think Hamilton is superior to Parling and Gray slightly better than Launchbury.

If I'm honest I think that a group of very good and very talented youngsters who beat New Zealand and were better on the day for whatever reason have been elevated in the media to be much better than they are and the opposite with Scotland who have a talented group of youngsters who lost to Tonga in a game where they played abysmally and Tonga played out of their skins. Remember in the world cup they beat France and the French nearly beat a New Zealand team with full control of their bowels in a home world cup final. In truth England are probably better than Scotland but by nowhere near the margin that has been suggested.

[Alex_Germany]

What are the chances of Twelvetrees taking some penalties from over 50m?

[doctor_grey]

What's the point spread?
I tend to agree the media generally over-hype England which I don't like. One of the great things about the 6 Nations is results don't always go along with presumed form. England beat the All Blacks because they were better that day. The hype surrounding that win was deserved because that was the biggest margin of victory by England against the ABs ever. But I am not sure that single win has much - or any - meaning in a Six Nations.

Scotland do seem to be (hopefully) improving and need a big scalp or two. Just not this weekend, please.

[overlordofthewest]

Looking at the teams side by side and there's not much in it. You never know what can happen the day, England proved that against the all blacks.
As a neutral Im hoping for an entertaining game which this fixture rarely is. My moneys on England but I wouldn't be shocked if the Scots nicked it (surprised maybe).

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

If I'm honest England on the whole will have a better side but I still think there are some areas and positions in which Scotland are distinctly better, at full-back it is pretty even, Hogg is more solid under high balls than last year and can kick for miles, but Visser and Maitland are both big, strong and fast players whereas Brown, who I have a soft spot for because he's a Quins player, won't have the same depth of knowledge as a winger as Visser and Maitland. I also think Visser and Maitland will come into the backline a lot more. In the second row I think Hamilton is superior to Parling and Gray slightly better than Launchbury.

If I'm honest I think that a group of very good and very talented youngsters who beat New Zealand and were better on the day for whatever reason have been elevated in the media to be much better than they are and the opposite with Scotland who have a talented group of youngsters who lost to Tonga in a game where they played abysmally and Tonga played out of their skins. Remember in the world cup they beat France and the French nearly beat a New Zealand team with full control of their bowels in a home world cup final. In truth England are probably better than Scotland but by nowhere near the margin that has been suggested.

Sorry but isnt it Scotlad e constantly get told are 6 nations dark hoses? That they have a powerful pack and some exciteing new young (often english) backs etc?They are going to giv England are hard game, nothing is easy, they will want it more england are complacent and arrogant etc.
Remind me how often Scotland win at Twickers (or even away really, it'l be at least 6 years between those events). Theres a clue in my previous poston this subject.

Having said that I dont expect a big points spread, partly becase this is a 6 nations opener and teams tend to be conservative in those and partly becase England appear to have all the attacking intent of a french army. Ill go with by 10.

Sorry but its scotland that get overhyped if anyone is.

[123456789]

If I'm honest England on the whole will have a better side but I still think there are some areas and positions in which Scotland are distinctly better, at full-back it is pretty even, Hogg is more solid under high balls than last year and can kick for miles, but Visser and Maitland are both big, strong and fast players whereas Brown, who I have a soft spot for because he's a Quins player, won't have the same depth of knowledge as a winger as Visser and Maitland. I also think Visser and Maitland will come into the backline a lot more. In the second row I think Hamilton is superior to Parling and Gray slightly better than Launchbury.

If I'm honest I think that a group of very good and very talented youngsters who beat New Zealand and were better on the day for whatever reason have been elevated in the media to be much better than they are and the opposite with Scotland who have a talented group of youngsters who lost to Tonga in a game where they played abysmally and Tonga played out of their skins. Remember in the world cup they beat France and the French nearly beat a New Zealand team with full control of their bowels in a home world cup final. In truth England are probably better than Scotland but by nowhere near the margin that has been suggested.

Sorry but isnt it Scotlad e constantly get told are 6 nations dark hoses? That they have a powerful pack and some exciteing new young (often english) backs etc?They are going to giv England are hard game, nothing is easy, they will want it more england are complacent and arrogant etc.
Remind me how often Scotland win at Twickers (or even away really, it'l be at least 6 years between those events). Theres a clue in my previous poston this subject.

Having said that I dont expect a big points spread, partly becase this is a 6 nations opener and teams tend to be conservative in those and partly becase England appear to have all the attacking intent of a french army. Ill go with by 10.

Sorry but its scotland that get overhyped if anyone is.

I see no Scotland to grand slam glory 2013 thread

[nathan]

If I'm honest England on the whole will have a better side but I still think there are some areas and positions in which Scotland are distinctly better, at full-back it is pretty even, Hogg is more solid under high balls than last year and can kick for miles, but Visser and Maitland are both big, strong and fast players whereas Brown, who I have a soft spot for because he's a Quins player, won't have the same depth of knowledge as a winger as Visser and Maitland. I also think Visser and Maitland will come into the backline a lot more. In the second row I think Hamilton is superior to Parling and Gray slightly better than Launchbury.

If I'm honest I think that a group of very good and very talented youngsters who beat New Zealand and were better on the day for whatever reason have been elevated in the media to be much better than they are and the opposite with Scotland who have a talented group of youngsters who lost to Tonga in a game where they played abysmally and Tonga played out of their skins. Remember in the world cup they beat France and the French nearly beat a New Zealand team with full control of their bowels in a home world cup final. In truth England are probably better than Scotland but by nowhere near the margin that has been suggested.

Sorry but isnt it Scotlad e constantly get told are 6 nations dark hoses? That they have a powerful pack and some exciteing new young (often english) backs etc?They are going to giv England are hard game, nothing is easy, they will want it more england are complacent and arrogant etc.
Remind me how often Scotland win at Twickers (or even away really, it'l be at least 6 years between those events). Theres a clue in my previous poston this subject.

Having said that I dont expect a big points spread, partly becase this is a 6 nations opener and teams tend to be conservative in those and partly becase England appear to have all the attacking intent of a french army. Ill go with by 10.

Sorry but its scotland that get overhyped if anyone is.

havent the french army just gone into Mali? lol

[IanBru]

I see no Scotland to grand slam glory 2013 thread

A good point, well made.

All peoples are arrogant in their own way, the English are just arrogant enough to claim they aren't.

[overlordofthewest]

[Solid8]

Agree with this. Also I think that seabiscuit may actually be a native Welsh speaker going by his last post.

[Guest]

Twelvetrees set to turn water into wine and become Lions shoe in after this game

[Cyril]

shoo-in

[Guest]

shoo-in

[Cyril]

shoo-in

Heh, don't worry View. It's just another common mistake that does my head in.

[IanBru]

It's up there with 'Strength and depth' for me - just shows that the writer hasn't thought about the meaning of what they're trying to say.

[123456789]

Out of interest do the English fans feel the same contempt for the Scotland team as we do for the English and do you class us as your biggest rival?

[Cyril]

Out of interest do the English fans feel the same contempt for the Scotland team as we do for the English and do you class us as your biggest rival?

No, I don't feel any contempt for Scotland at all. I quite like them. In terms of the big 6Ns games it's certainly a fair bit down the pecking order after (in order) France, Wales and Ireland for me though.

[123456789]

Out of interest do the English fans feel the same contempt for the Scotland team as we do for the English and do you class us as your biggest rival?

No, I don't feel any contempt for Scotland at all. I quite like them. In terms of the big 6Ns games it's certainly a fair bit down the pecking order after (in order) France, Wales and Ireland for me though.

So losing to us wouldn't hurt as much as losing to those teams, for example if on the last game against the six nations the team you were playing were both going for the slam and you lost, who would you least like it to be?

And can I stress that when I said English I meant English team not people, actually I quite like Marler, Robshaw, Care and Brown.

[ChequeredJersey]

Scotland are my second team after England. But France are our 6N rivals IMO. I find the contempt a bit bewildering to be honest, but I suppose historically I understand where it comes from even if I think it's still a bit silly in a modern context

[ChequeredJersey]

I'd be annoyed to lose to Scotland but for entirely different reasons to why I'd be annoyed if we lost to each of the other teams. The complex dynamics between nations are what makes the 6N work

[123456789]

I'd be annoyed to lose to Scotland but for entirely different reasons to why I'd be annoyed if we lost to each of the other teams. The complex dynamics between nations are what makes the 6N work

So would it be fair to say achievement wise beating Scotland would be down the list but for emotional reasons it would be near/on the top?

[ChequeredJersey]

Something like that

[MacKnocked-on]

Don't think there's any geniune animosity between real rugby fans of any nationality, certainly hope not anyway. Obviously I really hope Scotland win on Saturday (unlikely but...) but that doesn't mean I'm anti-English in any way and I expect my sentiments are the same of most Scots and English.

[Cyril]

Out of interest do the English fans feel the same contempt for the Scotland team as we do for the English and do you class us as your biggest rival?

No, I don't feel any contempt for Scotland at all. I quite like them. In terms of the big 6Ns games it's certainly a fair bit down the pecking order after (in order) France, Wales and Ireland for me though.

So losing to us wouldn't hurt as much as losing to those teams, for example if on the last game against the six nations the team you were playing were both going for the slam and you lost, who would you least like it to be?

And can I stress that when I said English I meant English team not people, actually I quite like Marler, Robshaw, Care and Brown.

Losing to Scotland would be disappointing, especially so given where they normally finish in the table, but, in terms of the Scottish team, they're a fairly nondescript bunch to be honest. I can't think of any that I dislike. I guess the French, Welsh and Irish players tend to have more personality, good and bad.

[123456789]

Don't think there's any geniune animosity between real rugby fans of any nationality, certainly hope not anyway. Obviously I really hope Scotland win on Saturday (unlikely but...) but that doesn't mean I'm anti-English in any way and I expect my sentiments are the same of most Scots and English.

I don't feel animosity for other fans on account of their nationality, however I cannot help but dislike the likes of Chris Ashton, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs and Dylan Hartley, occasionally other comments annoy me such as ones that completely discount any chance of the opposition winning, especially when in the same post they've claimed that they're aren't arrogant. In general though I feel no animosity towards most posters whatsoever.

[ChequeredJersey]

I like Brown and Beattie

[ChequeredJersey]

What has Owen Farrell done? Not exciting to watch but he seems a decent enough chap

[123456789]

Out of interest do the English fans feel the same contempt for the Scotland team as we do for the English and do you class us as your biggest rival?

No, I don't feel any contempt for Scotland at all. I quite like them. In terms of the big 6Ns games it's certainly a fair bit down the pecking order after (in order) France, Wales and Ireland for me though.

So losing to us wouldn't hurt as much as losing to those teams, for example if on the last game against the six nations the team you were playing were both going for the slam and you lost, who would you least like it to be?

And can I stress that when I said English I meant English team not people, actually I quite like Marler, Robshaw, Care and Brown.

Losing to Scotland would be disappointing, especially so given where they normally finish in the table, but, in terms of the Scottish team, they're a fairly nondescript bunch to be honest. I can't think of any that I dislike. I guess the French, Welsh and Irish players tend to have more personality, good and bad.

I suppose our team haven't done enough to warrant publicly being dicks, whereas the Welsh, Irish and French have won things. If Scotland players were openly idiots then they would be remembered for it.

As for Owen Farrell I have no idea why I don't like him, I think maybe because he plays for Saracens or his face before he kicks. It's an irrational dislike rather than one with a reason.

[ChequeredJersey]

He does have a punchable face

[RDW]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

[ChequeredJersey]

That's rational

[Solid8]

Out of interest do the English fans feel the same contempt for the Scotland team as we do for the English and do you class us as your biggest rival?

I don't have any contempt for the England team, I enjoy the Calcutta cup immensely, especially if we win. I respect the England team and am jealous of their resources. Some of the fans are another matter, I have lived in England for a good portion of my life and get annoyed with the occasional fool who makes an issue out of the fact I'm Scottish, but I can learn to live with it, and beside there are just as many idiots with that kind of attitude north of the border.

At the end of the day I want us to be the like the Scotland teams of old; greater than the sum of its parts. I don't particularly care about any other team but in the NH England are the most consistent barometer of what Scotland can achieve that is the main reason why the Calcutta cup is special for me the history comes a close second.

[Glas a du]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

*Ahem*

Producers you mean?

[nathan]

Don't think there's any geniune animosity between real rugby fans of any nationality, certainly hope not anyway. Obviously I really hope Scotland win on Saturday (unlikely but...) but that doesn't mean I'm anti-English in any way and I expect my sentiments are the same of most Scots and English.

I don't feel animosity for other fans on account of their nationality, however I cannot help but dislike the likes of Chris Ashton, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs and Dylan Hartley, occasionally other comments annoy me such as ones that completely discount any chance of the opposition winning, especially when in the same post they've claimed that they're aren't arrogant. In general though I feel no animosity towards most posters whatsoever.

In fairness to them, a player who doesn't 100% believe they can beat the opposition shouldn't be playing. If a player is talking to the media like that they've already lost.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

*Ahem*

Producers you mean?

Thought it was directors...

[overlordofthewest]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors/producers/directors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

This. So much.

[123456789]

Don't think there's any geniune animosity between real rugby fans of any nationality, certainly hope not anyway. Obviously I really hope Scotland win on Saturday (unlikely but...) but that doesn't mean I'm anti-English in any way and I expect my sentiments are the same of most Scots and English.

I don't feel animosity for other fans on account of their nationality, however I cannot help but dislike the likes of Chris Ashton, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs and Dylan Hartley, occasionally other comments annoy me such as ones that completely discount any chance of the opposition winning, especially when in the same post they've claimed that they're aren't arrogant. In general though I feel no animosity towards most posters whatsoever.

In fairness to them, a player who doesn't 100% believe they can beat the opposition shouldn't be playing. If a player is talking to the media like that they've already lost.

No I actually meant posters on here who slam Telfer for his claims then in the same post say England will definetely win.

[doctor_grey]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

I agree. I don't want to see Owen's dad Andy Farrell on tv picking his nose or scratching his arse either. On the other hand seeing Owen do that would be great tv......

[Glas a du]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

*Ahem*

Producers you mean?

Thought it was directors...

Well you thought wrong

The Director tells the cameraman what to film, the Producer chooses which camera feed to broadcast.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Jeez, how I'd feel if England lost to Scotland? It had really never occurred to me before you mentioned it.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

I just have an irrational hatred of all tv editors who cut to his dad whenever he kicks a goal, passes, tackles someone, picks his nose, scratches his arse...

*Ahem*

Producers you mean?

Thought it was directors...

Well you thought wrong

The Director tells the cameraman what to film, the Producer chooses which camera feed to broadcast.

My bad, just going on my recollection of Eddie Butler waxing lyrical about the French television directors and their love of half faded shots of Parra and his like taking kicks...

[Glas a du]

Not at all. My brother in law is a producer and insists on me using the correct terms when we watch rugby together.

Mind you, he once passed me his 6 month old son when he got over excited...

[nathan]

Don't think there's any geniune animosity between real rugby fans of any nationality, certainly hope not anyway. Obviously I really hope Scotland win on Saturday (unlikely but...) but that doesn't mean I'm anti-English in any way and I expect my sentiments are the same of most Scots and English.

I don't feel animosity for other fans on account of their nationality, however I cannot help but dislike the likes of Chris Ashton, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs and Dylan Hartley, occasionally other comments annoy me such as ones that completely discount any chance of the opposition winning, especially when in the same post they've claimed that they're aren't arrogant. In general though I feel no animosity towards most posters whatsoever.

In fairness to them, a player who doesn't 100% believe they can beat the opposition shouldn't be playing. If a player is talking to the media like that they've already lost.

No I actually meant posters on here who slam Telfer for his claims then in the same post say England will definetely win.

I wouldn't say being optimistic about your team is on the same level as painting a whole nation as Telfer said.

[123456789]

Don't think there's any geniune animosity between real rugby fans of any nationality, certainly hope not anyway. Obviously I really hope Scotland win on Saturday (unlikely but...) but that doesn't mean I'm anti-English in any way and I expect my sentiments are the same of most Scots and English.

I don't feel animosity for other fans on account of their nationality, however I cannot help but dislike the likes of Chris Ashton, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs and Dylan Hartley, occasionally other comments annoy me such as ones that completely discount any chance of the opposition winning, especially when in the same post they've claimed that they're aren't arrogant. In general though I feel no animosity towards most posters whatsoever.

In fairness to them, a player who doesn't 100% believe they can beat the opposition shouldn't be playing. If a player is talking to the media like that they've already lost.

No I actually meant posters on here who slam Telfer for his claims then in the same post say England will definetely win.

I wouldn't say being optimistic about your team is on the same level as painting a whole nation as Telfer said.

I don't agree with Telfer, it's just the refusal to accept that they may lose that irks me, arguably the fact that England beat NZ and Tonga beat Scotland shows how unpredictable rugby is. I'm all for optimism, I'm optimistic about Saturday but when we discuss the strengths of our team we are accused of over-hyping yet it is reasonable to completely discount the opposition.

[yappysnap]

England by 15. FACT

[Glas a du]

Have you lot seen the Wales Online leaked Welsh team?

Scotland, you may win one game quite easily at home if Howley carries on like this.

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