England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[beshocked]

Not outclassed overawed in the Ais?

Nope. Show me a time where grant was outclassed by a NZ, South African or Tongan tighthead. Matt Scott set up a try against NZ, and Laidlaw's counter-rucking set up another.

The failings in the AIs were more about the whole team, not those specific individuals. They all acquitted themselves well individually.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you can't see that Ryan Grant, for example, is an international class rugby player, you don't know anything about rugby.

I can't say I have seen lots of Grant. We'll see how he does vs Cole.

Most of these guys you call international class IMO have not done enough to deserve that tag yet.

[beshocked]

Not outclassed overawed in the Ais?

Nope. Show me a time where grant was outclassed by a NZ, South African or Tongan tighthead. Matt Scott set up a try against NZ, and Laidlaw's counter-rucking set up another.

The failings in the AIs were more about the whole team, not those specific individuals. They all acquitted themselves well individually.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you can't see that Ryan Grant, for example, is an international class rugby player, you don't know anything about rugby.

I'm one of Grants biggest fans, he has battled very well against some top class opposition this year for Glasgow and Scotland, but with only 5 caps it's maybe a bit early to call him international class.

Compae him to Healy for example. Healy is international class, Grant is well on the way but needs more exposure at that level to be labled international class IMO.

I agree again. Wow this is happening a lot!

[beshocked]

I see England winning this one because:

(a) superior defence

(b) superior lineout

(c) Farrell's boot

I don't think that this will be a try-fest, as frankly neither side are set up to be particularly creative. I think that the English backline will suffocate Scotland in defence, and England's basics will be superior generally.

I predict a 10-15 points margin.

If Scotland are to win this game, we need to work hard to get out big ball carriers, Gray, Beattie and Lamont over the advantage line sufficiently sharply to guarantee quick ball, and out forwards need to be willing to take risks in the offload. With quick ball I can see Jackson and Scott being able to bring our back three into the game, and in attack we have three very capable players in the back three. England will know this and will not kick much ball to them (or if they do the chase will be excellent), so we have to work out ways of bringing them into the game as much as possible.

The moment we start hoofing the ball away is the moment this game is done. Laidlaw, Jackson and Hogg will not win a contest of aerial ping pong, and I think Parling, Launchbury, Robshaw and Wood will make our lineouts a misery, so keeping possession and building phases is the key for me. If we must kick, then for goodness' sake find touch, and have the chase well organised.

There's no question we can compete against this England side. I don't see us getting munched in the scrum, I don't see us getting bossed at the breakdown and I don't see that England backline putting 30 points past us. In Ford and Denton we have two players who could come on and make a big difference in the second half, and Pyrgos has proven against South Africa that he can come on an later the tempo for us.

You make a lot of very good points.

I personally think the margin will be 15-20 points for England but we'll see won't we.

Alain Rolland wanting to be the star of the show could have an impact too.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Yeah hopefully Cole will pass wind in his direction that will offend mr Rolland and make him penalise the England scrum for the rest of the match.

[funnyExiledScot]

Oh God - I hadn't realised Rolland was going to be the ref.

May as well just pick flankers for props, the scrum will be determined on a coin toss each time anyway.

He has a nasty habit of making the headlines does Rolland. I hope for the sake of both sides he can just get on with the game and ref the match fairly.

[RDW]

Right, here is what I think is a realistic comparison of the backs:

Youngs V Laidlaw - England

Youngs now has the experience and is a potential Lion, and Laidlaw has barely played at 9 for the last 18 months


Farrell V Jackson - England

Jackson has been playing better recently but am still not convinced he is an international 10


Ashton V Visser - even

Big debating point - I would say Visser hasa greater attacking threat but Ashton is a real poacher and a better all round winger. I'll go for evens on this one.


Barritt V Scott - even

Both solid 12s and I wouldn't say either stood out particularly


36 (likely) V Lamont - even

36 is a better centre, but Lamont has years of experience on his side and 36 is making his debut


Brown (likely) V Maitland - England

Although Brown isn't exactly a veteran we have no idea what Maitland will be like at this level. Prolific for one of the best club teams in the world but what will he be like without Dagg, Sonny Bill and Carter giving him service?


Goode V Hogg - even

Both still relatively inexperienced and both have different skill sets. I'm gonna again say evens.


So in my opinon there isn't much of a difference in the backs, with England shading it by a few players.

[AlastairW]

England are not reliant on tuilagi, says Brad Barritt:

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/176239.html

In further news, Sky recently revealed as blue!

Not having a crack at you Mawhis, just head in hands a bit at the reporting of yet another non-story being touted about news. No team should be reliant one 1 player, not even U10 boys local village hall team. Utter non-story.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think I can be a bit harsh on Scotland players sometimes, but I would probably have to side with the English on the Ashton vs Visser debate. Neither are what I'd call "rounded" players, but Visser's defence has been beyond awful at times this season, and I'd say that in attack they are quite evenly matched, so I'd give it to Ashton (say a score of 8 to Visser and 8.5 to Ashton).

Barritt has been a defensive stalwart of Saracens for a few years now and really stepped up against the ABs. Scott hasn't yet put forward that compelling performance yet in a Scotland jersey and have been mixed this season at Edinburgh (partly down to having to play 13 outside Atiga or King). Again, I'd go with Barritt (7 to Scott, 7.5 to Barritt).

I'd wouldn't say though that Brown is a better winger than Maitland. A better fullback certainly, but I just can't get excited about Mike Brown on the wing.

[RuggerRadge2611]

and that's why comparing the Grunters is easier!

[RDW]

Would it be fair to say that, as a whole team:

England - 8

Scotland - 7.5 on a good day, 7 as an average?

I know it's fairly subjective but I think the general gist is that, individually at least, England aren't miles better but definitely have an advantage?

[RuggerRadge2611]

Aye I would say that's about right.

I reckon we have some better individuals, but England are a much stronger sum of their parts.

[RDW]

Aye I would say that's about right.

I reckon we have some better individuals, but England are a much stronger sum of their parts.

Agreed. It's a real shame that we haven't been able to say that about Scotland for a long time now. That's what used to make Scotland teams so good in the good old days!

[beshocked]

Right, here is what I think is a realistic comparison of the backs:

Youngs V Laidlaw - England

Youngs now has the experience and is a potential Lion, and Laidlaw has barely played at 9 for the last 18 months


Farrell V Jackson - England

Jackson has been playing better recently but am still not convinced he is an international 10


Ashton V Visser - even

Big debating point - I would say Visser hasa greater attacking threat but Ashton is a real poacher and a better all round winger. I'll go for evens on this one.


Barritt V Scott - even

Both solid 12s and I wouldn't say either stood out particularly


36 (likely) V Lamont - even

36 is a better centre, but Lamont has years of experience on his side and 36 is making his debut


Brown (likely) V Maitland - England

Although Brown isn't exactly a veteran we have no idea what Maitland will be like at this level. Prolific for one of the best club teams in the world but what will he be like without Dagg, Sonny Bill and Carter giving him service?


Goode V Hogg - even

Both still relatively inexperienced and both have different skill sets. I'm gonna again say evens.


So in my opinon there isn't much of a difference in the backs, with England shading it by a few players.

It's your opinion so fair enough. I think England win all head to heads personally except for 36 and possibly Goode

Why you might ask?

Ashton is by far the more experienced winger. More caps and tries than his opposite number. Outclassed Visser in their two head to heads.

Barritt - defensive lynchpin of the England backline. More important than his opposite number. One of the most underrated players in the England backline. Try assist for Tuilagi vs Australia and combined well with him for NZ try.

Lamont - because 36 is unproven. Lamont is a steady eddy but he's been around the block.

Goode and Hogg - even probably

[RDW]

Outclassed Visser in their two head to heads.

Looks like you missed my earlier post so I am again going to take you to task on that one!

In the first game Visser took a big knock earlier on and went off after 20 minutes, the 2nd game was in a snow storm and the Edinburgh pack were butchered - hardly valid for comparison!

[Jimpy]

Right, here is what I think is a realistic comparison of the backs:

Youngs V Laidlaw - England

Youngs now has the experience and is a potential Lion, and Laidlaw has barely played at 9 for the last 18 months


Farrell V Jackson - England

Jackson has been playing better recently but am still not convinced he is an international 10


Ashton V Visser - even

Big debating point - I would say Visser hasa greater attacking threat but Ashton is a real poacher and a better all round winger. I'll go for evens on this one.


Barritt V Scott - even

Both solid 12s and I wouldn't say either stood out particularly


36 (likely) V Lamont - even

36 is a better centre, but Lamont has years of experience on his side and 36 is making his debut


Brown (likely) V Maitland - England

Although Brown isn't exactly a veteran we have no idea what Maitland will be like at this level. Prolific for one of the best club teams in the world but what will he be like without Dagg, Sonny Bill and Carter giving him service?


Goode V Hogg - even

Both still relatively inexperienced and both have different skill sets. I'm gonna again say evens.


So in my opinon there isn't much of a difference in the backs, with England shading it by a few players.

It's your opinion so fair enough. I think England win all head to heads personally except for 36 and possibly Goode

Why you might ask?

Ashton is by far the more experienced winger. More caps and tries than his opposite number. Outclassed Visser in their two head to heads.

Barritt - defensive lynchpin of the England backline. More important than his opposite number. One of the most underrated players in the England backline. Try assist for Tuilagi vs Australia and combined well with him for NZ try.

Lamont - because 36 is unproven. Lamont is a steady eddy but he's been around the block.

Goode and Hogg - even probably

Being better in 5 out of the 7 head to heads, isn't being better in all of them...

[beshocked]

Outclassed Visser in their two head to heads.

Looks like you missed my earlier post so I am again going to take you to task on that one!

In the first game Visser took a big knock earlier on and went off after 20 minutes, the 2nd game was in a snow storm and the Edinburgh pack were butchered - hardly valid for comparison!

I couldn't blame Visser for not wanting to be on the pitch for that first game.

2nd game in a snow storm? How does that make it not valid? The game was played. Ashton scored two tries. Visser 0. Ashton touched the ball twice. It's not as if the Saracen's team delivered him with numerous opportunities.

Still two games that Visser could prove a point vs Ashton. Instead it was Ashton who picked up the 3 tries with Visser missing in action.

[RDW]

The snow strom was only a side issue, it was more the fact that the Edinburgh pack and entire team was butchered, which doesn't help a winger very much.

I just don't get why you have such a crusade from these two games, and why you completely ignore the fact that he was injured and subbed off early on in the first game and make it out that he deliberately went off because he couldn't cope any more, or 'missed his chance' to impress beshocked! He was injured!

[George Carlin]

Beshocked - I don't think that I've ever written this before, but this energetic insistence on running down Visser is getting a bit boring.

Ashton is a good wing. So is Visser. Let's see if either can score at the weekend.

If neither does, both do or one does, it won't be determinative of anything.

Both could play for the Lions and I hope that both get the chance.

The rest of this is just ' '.

[RDW]

Beshocked - I don't think that I've ever written this before, but this energetic insistence on running down Visser is getting a bit boring.

Ashton is a good wing. So is Visser. Let's see if either can score at the weekend.

If neither does, both do or one does, it won't be determinative of anything.

Both could play for the Lions and I hope that both get the chance.

The rest of this is just ' '.

[funnyExiledScot]

I agree with RDW on the first game - pointless comparison.

I agree with Beshocked on the second. Visser was anonymous, and should have been watching Ashton like a hawk for that cross field kick. He was away with the fairies. However, it's not as if Ashton had to do a huge amount for either of those tries, and Visser wasn't afforded a single half gaps worth of opportunity.

Head to head comparisons can be unfair, particularly when one player plays for a far better side (as is the case here), and I don't think that 2nd game is conclusive proof of much really. I've seen a fair bit of both over the last few years, and I think Visser - 8 Ashton - 8.5 is a pretty fair assessment personally.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

As this is the starter of a five-game series, I feel that nos 1, 2 and 4-15 can be more-or-less be substituted without excessive diminution of the overall side. Indeed we can withstand three or four injuries in most positions.

Tight head though is an area of concern because if Dan Cole gets crocked there is no realistic equivalent cover.

The Telegraph's "ENGLAND TEAM TO PLAY SCOTLAND AT TWICKENHAM"
A Goode (Saracens); C Ashton (Saracens), B Barritt (Saracens), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), M Brown (Harlequins); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), J Launchbury (Wasps), G Parling (Leicester), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins), (capt), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: D Hartley (Northampton), M Vunipola (Saracens), D Wilson (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), D Care (Harlequins), T Flood (Leicester), D Strettle (Saracens)

Wilson is TH cover?

Yes Wilson is TH cover. Btw that isn't official yet but it's what is expected.

Not sure why Strettle is there TBH.

Backline is quite odd - 2 12s, 2 15s.

Just seen this response.

What I was suggesting that missing Dan Cole would be a step down in class in his position.

In this adequate - only adequate - England, only Dan is World class, all other positions can be substituted like bricks of Lego

[RuggerRadge2611]

Just how does Jeremy Guscott get to keep his job with the Beeb?

After the season before last's howler that Richie Gray doesn't have the pace for an international lock he is now suggesting that a blindisde flanker should be playing loosehead prop for Scotland!

From Guscott's Q&A

Q . Scotland still appear to be debating their captain for the Six Nations campaign. Who do you think will lead the team in the tough campaign ahead? Most candidates are in areas of high competition such as Kelly Brown in the back row, Al Kellock in the second row or even Greg Laidlaw whichever position he is played at.

JG : Kelly Brown has been named as captain against England and Scott Johnson has named a couple of vice-captains (scrum-half Greig Laidlaw and prop Roddy Grant). That sounds a bit Australian to me but hey ho, it might make a difference. Brown comes from a winning team and plays against the English players most weeks and wins for Saracens. It's a good choice picking a player from a top performing side, despite it being English.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21249473

is it too much to ask for Beeb pundits to either (a) do thier homework or (b) get the basics right!

[beshocked]

RDW Scotland I bring it up as an opportunity for us to see Ashton vs Visser before this 6 nations match. It's about seeing the effectiveness.

George Carlin I criticise Visser to add balance. He gets too much praise in my opinion. He has his strengths and weaknesses. He's a good player but he's not as good as a lot of you seem to think.

Was a dead certainty for the Lions not long ago according to many people. He scores a lot of tries but the question is does it make up for his defence?

Plus he is still unproven IMO.


FES very true.

[beshocked]

As this is the starter of a five-game series, I feel that nos 1, 2 and 4-15 can be more-or-less be substituted without excessive diminution of the overall side. Indeed we can withstand three or four injuries in most positions.

Tight head though is an area of concern because if Dan Cole gets crocked there is no realistic equivalent cover.

The Telegraph's "ENGLAND TEAM TO PLAY SCOTLAND AT TWICKENHAM"
A Goode (Saracens); C Ashton (Saracens), B Barritt (Saracens), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), M Brown (Harlequins); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), J Launchbury (Wasps), G Parling (Leicester), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins), (capt), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: D Hartley (Northampton), M Vunipola (Saracens), D Wilson (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), D Care (Harlequins), T Flood (Leicester), D Strettle (Saracens)

Wilson is TH cover?

Yes Wilson is TH cover. Btw that isn't official yet but it's what is expected.

Not sure why Strettle is there TBH.

Backline is quite odd - 2 12s, 2 15s.

Just seen this response.

What I was suggesting that missing Dan Cole would be a step down in class in his position.

In this adequate - only adequate - England, only Dan is World class, all other positions can be substituted like bricks of Lego

Positions swapped like bricks of lego? Sure....

[RuggerRadge2611]

I would say Dan Cole lays the foundation for everything good England do. He is a first class tighthead.

[RDW]

RDW Scotland I bring it up as an opportunity for us to see Ashton vs Visser before this 6 nations match. It's about seeing the effectiveness.
.

That's fair enough, but you treat those two games as definitive proof, when I am trying to say that they are not valid grounds for comparison. Visser off injured in the first game – no comparison. Yes Ashton scored two tries with two touches, but I also don’t think it is comparable when the rest of Visser’s team were so comprehensively dominated.

You are stating it that as fact from these two games which had significant mitigating circumstances– you’d never make a good scientist!

As FES says both are good players, both have their strengths and weaknesses.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Can we draw a line under the Visser bickering now?

[RDW]

I'd be delighted to!

[Pat_Mustard]

Just how does Jeremy Guscott get to keep his job with the Beeb?

After the season before last's howler that Richie Gray doesn't have the pace for an international lock he is now suggesting that a blindisde flanker should be playing loosehead prop for Scotland!

Roddy Grant is an openside!

Is it too much to ask for 606v2 posters to either (a) do thier homework or (b) get the basics right!

[Manky-Flanker]

[RDW]

Just how does Jeremy Guscott get to keep his job with the Beeb?

After the season before last's howler that Richie Gray doesn't have the pace for an international lock he is now suggesting that a blindisde flanker should be playing loosehead prop for Scotland!

Roddy Grant is an openside!

Is it too much to ask for 606v2 posters to either (a) do thier homework or (b) get the basics right!

To be fair, the ginger midget has played across the backrow for Edinburgh, but he is definitely an openside!

[RuggerRadge2611]

Just how does Jeremy Guscott get to keep his job with the Beeb?

After the season before last's howler that Richie Gray doesn't have the pace for an international lock he is now suggesting that a blindisde flanker should be playing loosehead prop for Scotland!

Roddy Grant is an openside!

Is it too much to ask for 606v2 posters to either (a) do thier homework or (b) get the basics right!

To be fair, the ginger midget has played across the backrow for Edinburgh, but he is definitely an openside!

At least I didn't have him in the Front row... but you are right. What a goon!

This is me setting up my stall to apply for guscott's job!

[RDW]

It's OK Radge - we have low expectations of tightheads on this forum!

[RuggerRadge2611]

Glad I don't suprise you too often then with my insightful comments and witty banter!

[Omelette]

RDW, Rugger ans captain sensible.

I hear what you say and re. visser and ashton, agree with most of it, with these 'finishing' type wingers they basically look as good as the teams they play in. both will get on the end of things very well and do the rest... if there is nothing to get on the end of though... they are stuffed.

Strettle on the other hand... just shouldnt be there.

As for the front row i.e. grant and hall. (i think i may have been the culprit who brought them up in the first place) i still think their english counterparts are better. i watched the autumn internationals and Grant did hold his own, Cole however was a step above this. I'm not bagging grant at all. its just that i think cole is just better. in the same way i really think some of the england boys are good but will conceed there are better players out there.

There keeps being this mention of 'international class' could someone explain... he is about to play in the six nations, and has already played against the all blacks... surely that is enough.

Basically, i think those saying England have an advantage there aren't having a go at your boys, just thinking the the boy oposite is, in their opinion, better.

Also you seem to think lots of the Scotish lads played really well in the autumn but falied to work as a team? this is just a question but isnt this part of their job in playing well? they cant just say 'i scrummaged, now its over to the rest of you' surely they are just as culpable for the awful scottish autumn as the rest of the players?

Am i being fair? Or in you opinion did a few of your boys just have absolute stinkers and let the whole team down? it appears a few people are suggesting strokosch may be in this catagory.

I'm saying this in peace guys, i really think it will be a close game and certainly no 'shock' if scotland were to come away with a victory. Although being english i feel we should win our home games.

xx

[RDW]

Good, articulate, well argued response there Omellete - we could do with more of that!

It is a fine point you raise regarding the individual V team performance, and you are right to question whether individuals really are playing that well if they are not helping the team perform.

I'd say against Tonga it was a combination of individuals letting the team down (I’d say no one really had a good game) plus the team not playing well as a whole.

In general though I do think we have very good individual performances sometimes (Denton, Gray, Hogg etc.) but it is just not working well as a team.

Thinking back to last years 6N I actually think we saw some of the best individual performances from the Scotland players that I have seen in a while (Italy game aside) but we just didn’t quite manage to get across the finishing line as a team.

[GLove39]

Hoping for scenes like this come Saturday
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/154572_10150819196452339_1819653415_n.jpg
& https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/230974_10151115380042339_2184164_n.jpg

[Alex_Germany]

RDW, Rugger ans captain sensible.


There keeps being this mention of 'international class' could someone explain... he is about to play in the six nations, and has already played against the all blacks... surely that is enough.

Basically, i think those saying England have an advantage there aren't having a go at your boys, just thinking the the boy oposite is, in their opinion, better.

15 years ago I could have been International class. It would have just meant living in San Marino or Iceland for three years. (nowadays it would mean moving to Bhutan for 3 years and finding 14 other volunteers )

I do feel the English players are mostly better - Richie Gray is the only Scot I wish were English (based on his 2011/12 form). But all 23 players are good enough for the Scottish team - according to their selector. So they're all International Class.

Scotland would beat England 1 time out of 10. I just hope it's not this Saturday.

[Alex_Germany]

Hoping for scenes like this come Saturday
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/154572_10150819196452339_1819653415_n.jpg
& https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/230974_10151115380042339_2184164_n.jpg

What - can't the Scottish RFU even afford to give all players a Scotland kit

[Omelette]

RDW,

I actually happen to agree with you about scotland in the last six nations... i think individually some of your players (backrow in partivular) were stand out performers. Rennie was out of this world for most of the tournament in my opinion. But, i remember against engalnd, he had a glaring two on one and butchered it. If he hadnt scotland would, in all probability gone on and won the game. then who knows... that changed their whole tournament.

My point is in top level sport there are lots of players who can look decent (as scotland often do) but very few who, when that one chance comes, always take it. thats where i felt scotland were last year. And, for my money, where they will find themselves again this year. Visser may be a very good finisher but who says the crucial chance will fall to him?

With the player base you have you cant bring more players in - you have to do the Aussie thing and just develope who you have. Do you feel Robinson was doing this? do you feel Johnson will? is it just a confidence issue?

interested to hear your thoughts...

xx

[Geordie]

Whens the Saxons team announced...

[dragonbreath]

I quite like the look of the Scottish pack big and combative. They have a potentially dangerous counter attacking back three if Farrell kicks the stitching off the ball as usual. A clever fotballer at 9 a little bit of flair at 10 a solid midfield.

If you shackle Manu I still don't really see much in the England backs. Farrell is no threat and as long as the kick chase is good Englands back three well, Goode is a clever player and good footballer but his pace is not going to hurt you and Brown is out of position. I can only think of one occasion that Ashton has actually beaten a man one on one. Scotlands pack is more than capable of matching England for me this is a real 50-50 game

This could be a upset. Well it wouldn't upset me but you know what I mean.

[Duty281]

I quite like the look of the Scottish pack big and combative. They have a potentially dangerous counter attacking back three if Farrell kicks the stitching off the ball as usual. A clever fotballer at 9 a little bit of flair at 10 a solid midfield.

If you shackle Manu I still don't really see much in the England backs. Farrell is no threat and as long as the kick chase is good Englands back three well, Goode is a clever player and good footballer but his pace is not going to hurt you and Brown is out of position. I can only think of one occasion that Ashton has actually beaten a man one on one. Scotlands pack is more than capable of matching England for me this is a real 50-50 game

This could be a upset. Well it wouldn't upset me but you know what I mean.

No shackling needed, he's injured.

[maestegmafia]

As this is the starter of a five-game series, I feel that nos 1, 2 and 4-15 can be more-or-less be substituted without excessive diminution of the overall side. Indeed we can withstand three or four injuries in most positions.

Tight head though is an area of concern because if Dan Cole gets crocked there is no realistic equivalent cover.

The Telegraph's "ENGLAND TEAM TO PLAY SCOTLAND AT TWICKENHAM"
A Goode (Saracens); C Ashton (Saracens), B Barritt (Saracens), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), M Brown (Harlequins); O Farrell (Saracens), B Youngs (Leicester); J Marler (Harlequins), T Youngs (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), J Launchbury (Wasps), G Parling (Leicester), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins), (capt), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: D Hartley (Northampton), M Vunipola (Saracens), D Wilson (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), J Haskell (Wasps), D Care (Harlequins), T Flood (Leicester), D Strettle (Saracens)

Wilson is TH cover?

Yes Wilson is TH cover. Btw that isn't official yet but it's what is expected.

Not sure why Strettle is there TBH.

Backline is quite odd - 2 12s, 2 15s.

Just seen this response.

What I was suggesting that missing Dan Cole would be a step down in class in his position.

In this adequate - only adequate - England, only Dan is World class, all other positions can be substituted like bricks of Lego

With respect to your comment on Cole, that is little different to any other team in the World with a good TH. I think only SA and France really have true unequalled depth in the the number three shirt.

If Cole were unavailable that England front five lose a massive amount of credit on paper.

As I mentioned before, England have been lucky to develop Youngs at Hooker this Autumn. And it was pointed out to me that they are doing well at loosehead too, with Marler and Vunipola both gaining experience in Corbisero's absence. But Cole invariably is forced to play a whole game, as you say, because the next in line doesn't meet the requisite impact on the field.

[GLove39]

Hoping for scenes like this come Saturday
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/154572_10150819196452339_1819653415_n.jpg
& https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/230974_10151115380042339_2184164_n.jpg

What - can't the Scottish RFU even afford to give all players a Scotland kit

Well booking Maitland's flights across proved rather pricey...

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Cole is the best tight head in the world in open play IMO & by definition any sub would be a step down.

[dragonbreath]

I quite like the look of the Scottish pack big and combative. They have a potentially dangerous counter attacking back three if Farrell kicks the stitching off the ball as usual. A clever fotballer at 9 a little bit of flair at 10 a solid midfield.

If you shackle Manu I still don't really see much in the England backs. Farrell is no threat and as long as the kick chase is good Englands back three well, Goode is a clever player and good footballer but his pace is not going to hurt you and Brown is out of position. I can only think of one occasion that Ashton has actually beaten a man one on one. Scotlands pack is more than capable of matching England for me this is a real 50-50 game

This could be a upset. Well it wouldn't upset me but you know what I mean.

No shackling needed, he's injured.

Even better. I did see Billy was in the frame now I think of it. Does that leave a one capper and a stopper as the centre combp. Doesn't make you quiver with fear does it. Billy is a good player and will be very good but as a pair Brad and Billy (sounds like a Holywood couple) seem toothless to me.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I quite like the look of the Scottish pack big and combative. They have a potentially dangerous counter attacking back three if Farrell kicks the stitching off the ball as usual. A clever fotballer at 9 a little bit of flair at 10 a solid midfield.

If you shackle Manu I still don't really see much in the England backs. Farrell is no threat and as long as the kick chase is good Englands back three well, Goode is a clever player and good footballer but his pace is not going to hurt you and Brown is out of position. I can only think of one occasion that Ashton has actually beaten a man one on one. Scotlands pack is more than capable of matching England for me this is a real 50-50 game

This could be a upset. Well it wouldn't upset me but you know what I mean.

No shackling needed, he's injured.

Even better. I did see Billy was in the frame now I think of it. Does that leave a one capper and a stopper as the centre combp. Doesn't make you quiver with fear does it. Billy is a good player and will be very good but as a pair Brad and Billy (sounds like a Holywood couple) seem toothless to me.

Last year England started Farrell Barrit and the centers. They still won. Away. With what amounted to a scratch team.
In 20011 they played the awesome attacking combo of Tindall and Hape, And won
2007 it was farrell snr and Tindall and they put 42 points on Scotland.
Theyve won every home game against scotland since 1989,all of them without Tuillagi

Dont get your hopes up too much. Itll take more than a moderately dull 13 to stop England winning again.

[Duty281]

I quite like the look of the Scottish pack big and combative. They have a potentially dangerous counter attacking back three if Farrell kicks the stitching off the ball as usual. A clever fotballer at 9 a little bit of flair at 10 a solid midfield.

If you shackle Manu I still don't really see much in the England backs. Farrell is no threat and as long as the kick chase is good Englands back three well, Goode is a clever player and good footballer but his pace is not going to hurt you and Brown is out of position. I can only think of one occasion that Ashton has actually beaten a man one on one. Scotlands pack is more than capable of matching England for me this is a real 50-50 game

This could be a upset. Well it wouldn't upset me but you know what I mean.

No shackling needed, he's injured.

Even better. I did see Billy was in the frame now I think of it. Does that leave a one capper and a stopper as the centre combp. Doesn't make you quiver with fear does it. Billy is a good player and will be very good but as a pair Brad and Billy (sounds like a Holywood couple) seem toothless to me.

Last year England started Farrell Barrit and the centers. They still won. Away. With what amounted to a scratch team.
In 20011 they played the awesome attacking combo of Tindall and Hape, And won
2007 it was farrell snr and Tindall and they put 42 points on Scotland.
Theyve won every home game against scotland since 1989,all of them without Tuillagi

Dont get your hopes up too much. Itll take more than a moderately dull 13 to stop England winning again.

I'm 100% sure that England's attacking arsenal is better than Scotland's.

[nickj]

We'll soon see boys

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