England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[RDW]

The A team I would say was at least on a par with the one of last season, with a good mix of inexperience and experience. We have some guys who stand a good chance of a call up (Dickinson, Ryan Wilson, Dunbar, Grove, Nikki Walker etc) and some young guys looking to make an impact (Kennedy, Heathcoat). We’ve got two absolute workhorses in the 2nd row in Ryder and Swinson, although they aren’t the biggest locks in the word.

Strangely though we have 3 loosheads in the A team and 3 tightheads in the full team…

The main thing going against the A team is that they have only had a few training sessions together, whereas the English team has had a lot more time together and played a game already.

The under 20s are the usual – good skills and promising players but we’re always behind other nations physically at this level for some reason. We’re a bit better this year than usual, as we have Richie Gray’s ‘little’ brother (all 6ft 7 of him or whatever he is) and another lock who is in the Perpignan setup. The backs are fairly lightweight but we do have the Messiah at 12 (Mark Bennet – Clermont academy player, messiah is an in-joke with us Scots) so anything is possible!

[beshocked]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like Scotland A might do well then.

[Pat_Mustard]

I haven't seen many of the under 20's play, but I think it could be significant that both locks, 2/3 of the back row, 9, 10 and 12 all have pro contracts, while the whole front row and all the outside backs are amateurs. So you can see where the areas of strength should be. Most of the pros are also in their second year at this age grade too so should have developed a bit since last year. I've heard a couple of good things about the amateur guys but might expect them to struggle a bit with physicality or stamina.

PS, as if the under 20's, A's and full international wasn't enough, Scotland and England also meet in the quarter final of the NZ sevens at 1.30am.

[beshocked]

Surely the women must be playing too?

Wow England sevens beat NZ. How did that happen?

[RDW]

Yeah forgot the ladies are playing too, but can’t see anything other than a route with that one – even though England are saving a lot of their top players for 7s

[Pat_Mustard]

Even more amazingly, Scotland beat Fiji and knocked them out of the main competition at the group stage for the first time in their history!

The women play at Esher at 2pm on Saturday.

[beshocked]

The English women's side is pretty awesome. Saw them vs the ABs at Twickenham. Was a really good match.

Much more attacking than the men.

Do you know if the match is after the men's game?

[BristolDave]

What I find surprising is that there are still tickets available. Had an email from ER supporters club this morning advising. Had a look still some mid tier half way line ones available (mind you they are £100+

[Pat_Mustard]

See my post above. You could try and get from Esher to Twickenham between matches but might be pushing it!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

*dont mention the poaching of england age grade players or shinglesgate*

[beshocked]

*dont mention the poaching of england age grade players or shinglesgate*

It's not exactly done either player any favours has it?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Even more amazingly, Scotland beat Fiji and knocked them out of the main competition at the group stage for the first time in their history!

The women play at Esher at 2pm on Saturday.

And the USA drew with England and got within a score of NZ too. Not to mention Kenya beating France.

So you could either say the weekend's upsets quota is full, or that the stars are really really aligned for upsets

[Jimpy]

I understand that the England women's rugby squad has been stripped of its best players so that they can concentrate on the seven 'man' game.

Are we seeing a seizmic shift in the rugby demographic? Several lesser rugby nations are improving very quickly, upsets ppear to be the norm nowadays, rather than the exception.

[funnyExiledScot]

I understand that the England women's rugby squad has been stripped

Most excellent.

[Jimpy]

I understand that the England women's rugby squad has been stripped

Most excellent.

But not in all cases...

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I assume thats to do with sevens being in the olympics, as well as there being a world cup this year.

Best BBC headline ever : "England women face massive semi"

[lostinwales]

Olympic (and maybe commonwealth games) sevens is starting to skew things and will continue to.

I'd add that Kenya beating France at sevens isnt that surprising at all.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

I understand that the England women's rugby squad has been stripped of its best players so that they can concentrate on the seven 'man' game.

Are we seeing a seizmic shift in the rugby demographic? Several lesser rugby nations are improving very quickly, upsets ppear to be the norm nowadays, rather than the exception.

It's an interesting one - the NZ womens' XVs side that (rather convincingly) lost to England recently was missing some players who were diverted to the 7s circuit - the NZRU has been given a decent wodge of Olympics funding for a medals tilt so I think they had to show they weren't just pocketing the cash.

2016 in Rio is looming.

[RDW]

I understand that the England women's rugby squad has been stripped

Most excellent.

But not in all cases...

Indeed. Although having seen the picture of all the captains together I think I will be paying close attention to the French team!

[R!skysports]

I understand that the England women's rugby squad has been stripped

Most excellent.

But not in all cases...

Indeed. Although having seen the picture of all the captains together I think I will be paying close attention to the French team!

There is a caption competition in that one

[nobbled]

I assume thats to do with sevens being in the olympics, as well as there being a world cup this year.

Best BBC headline ever : "England women face massive semi"

[RDW]

I wouldn't say anything to their faces though - in under 18s training at my club a few years ago and they asked us to provide some attacking plays that they could defend against. I was tackled by world record cap holder Scotland number 8 Donna Kennedy - wasn't a pleasant experience!

[nobbled]

If Vissers defence is as poor as some have suggested a £5 bet on an Ashton Hat-trick will net you £75.00.....

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I wouldn't say anything to their faces though

Jeez ..talk to their faces not their breasts man. Sexist pig.

[Jimpy]

If Vissers defence is as poor as some have suggested a £5 bet on an Ashton Hat-trick will net you £75.00.....

Is he really so poor? If so, why has he been selected?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

If Vissers defence is as poor as some have suggested a £5 bet on an Ashton Hat-trick will net you £75.00.....

Is he really so poor? If so, why has he been selected?

because he scores a ridiculous number of tries and scotlands other options are ......

[RubyGuby]

Id be more concerned about Visser running at Ashton

[bluestonevedder]

So who do we think is going to win the personal battle between Ashton and Visser?

[mystiroakey]

I am so pleased brown is starting!

[RDW]

So who do we think is going to win the personal battle between Ashton and Visser?

[bluestonevedder]

So who do we think is going to win the personal battle between Ashton and Visser?

Ha, sorry mate. I couldn't resist!

I honestly can't wait for this game though. The forward battle is going to be so intriguing, and relentlessly physcial I think.

[lostinwales]

So who do we think is going to win the personal battle between Ashton and Visser?

Depends on what weapons they use. Claymores might be interesting

[RubyGuby]

I think Clogmores are more likely

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Id be more concerned about Visser running at Ashton

id be very concerned about how he managed to get the ball....

[RubyGuby]

Id be more concerned about Visser running at Ashton

id be very concerned about how he managed to get the ball....

I wouldn't worry too much about that Ashton often comes searching for it - he has to with Barritt and Mannu inside

[killer938]

Except Manu isn't playing

[Triangulation]

safe to say that England will look to give the giant scottish pack the run around?

quick ball off the top of the lineout
accurate kick chase game
offloading from forwards
youngs and care sniping around the fringes trying to isolate big scottish forwards
farrell, 36 and goode giving different options either side of rucks, shifting the point of attack and supplying ashton, brown and barrit

[RDW]

The pack is big but you'd struggle to give Richie Gray, Johnnie Beattie and Kelly Brown the runaround! Ryan Grant and Dougie Hall aren't overly slow relatively speaking for their positions too...

Jum Hamilton, Strokosh and Euan Murray are big lumbering forwards but every pack has those kind of players.

Add to that Denton and Kellock on the bench and they will add to the athleticism and speed in the forwards!

[Triangulation]

The pack is big but you'd struggle to give Richie Gray, Johnnie Beattie and Kelly Brown the runaround! Ryan Grant and Dougie Hall aren't overly slow relatively speaking for their positions too...

Jum Hamilton, Strokosh and Euan Murray are big lumbering forwards but every pack has those kind of players.
Add to that Denton and Kellock on the bench and they will add to the athleticism and speed in the forwards!

We dont.

We dont have those "big lumbering forwards".

Marler Youngs Cole Launchbury Parling Wood Robshaw and Morgan are all highly mobile and nimlbe on their feet.

Your chain is only as strong as its lumbering link. We only need to isolate one of those around a ruck on one occasion and.......

Booooooooooom! Try time!

p.s

I think you're missing a trick not starting Denton.

[RDW]

You’re seriously suggesting the English pack can run around the Scottish pack?? I forgot that Parling was a 100m specialist and Marler is renowned for his long jump speed.

Robshaw nimble on his feet??

I do agree with you on Denton however.

[sensisball]

have to agree that visser could be a poor selection, particularly playing outside Lamont, who's passing is abysmal for someone wearing a 13 shirt at international level.

When you combine mcVisser's lack of defence with Lamont's lack of passing with Jackson's lack of a kicking game it all looks a bit shaky.

Then when you throw into the mix the fact that Laidlaw, who is off form, is playing only his third game at 9 for the last two seasons and it looks even more worrying..

If we have to go to the bench then we have Weir who is struggling for anything apporaching form after returning from injury and Max Evans who hasnt played a game for Casters for over a month and its easy to see why the bookies have England as strong favourites!

[Triangulation]

You’re seriously suggesting the English pack can run around the Scottish pack?? I forgot that Parling was a 100m specialist and Marler is renowned for his long jump speed.

Robshaw nimble on his feet??

I do agree with you on Denton however.

I think collectively we will look to give you the run around as detailed above. It is a little more sophisticated than our forwards trying to out dance yours in one on ones!

In fact its more speed of action across the field and shifting you around in defence that will do the trick.

Wearing my Lions hat i am disappointed in Denton's benching.

[RDW]

Strokosh over Denton is a very negative selection IMO but I think Denton will still play a large part in the rest of the 6N.

And as I said earlier in the thread the last time he was benched was against NZ – he was obviously so peed off at being benched that he came on and had a stormer, included running over a certain NZ captain!

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

Jackson has shown a distinct improvement in his kicking game of recent times and Evans has played in Castres most recent Heineken cup games so he's not lacking gametime... Agree that Weir shouldn't be near the team, although I suspect he wasn't meant to be. Only called up as Horne got injured.

Lamont probably won't be used as a distributor anyway. He'll be used as a decoy runner/first option reciever with Scott in the 13 channel in attack...

[Triangulation]

RDW Scotland

I never said our pack would run around yours.

as per above.....

safe to say that England will look to give the giant scottish pack the run around?

quick ball off the top of the lineout
accurate kick chase game
offloading from forwards
youngs and care sniping around the fringes trying to isolate big scottish forwards
farrell, 36 and goode giving different options either side of rucks, shifting the point of attack and supplying ashton, brown and barrit
.
Triangulation


Posts: 832
Join date: 2012-01-27

[123456789]

*dont mention the poaching of england age grade players or shinglesgate*

scott wilson playing for England is Scottish. Only one player starting for Scotland on Sunday is "English"

[bluestonevedder]

*dont mention the poaching of england age grade players or shinglesgate*

scott wilson playing for England is Scottish. Only one player starting for Scotland on Sunday is "English"

Took me a while to get that, but is that Big Jim?

[lostinwales]

Marler - One of the reasons there has been some fuss about him is this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vgGYjXmtuo

[123456789]

*dont mention the poaching of england age grade players or shinglesgate*

scott wilson playing for England is Scottish. Only one player starting for Scotland on Sunday is "English"

Took me a while to get that, but is that Big Jim?

Yes it is, and on the bench I think it's only Max Evans and your'e more than welcome to take him

[123456789]

*dont mention the poaching of england age grade players or shinglesgate*

scott wilson playing for England is Scottish. Only one player starting for Scotland on Sunday is "English"

Took me a while to get that, but is that Big Jim?

Yes it is, and on the bench I think it's only Max Evans and your'e more than welcome to take him

Although we only have 3 players in total starting who weren't born or brought up in Scotland. Two of whom have Scottish parents so only one has a "dubious" link to Scotland.

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