England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[doctor_grey]

How many times did butcher tries when on the Scotland line. A half dozen at least?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I thought France didn't look like they turned up today.

[mystiroakey]

what a game next up though

ireland v england!!!

[Duty281]

Good win for England and job done. 4 tries, great kicking, good at the set-piece and dominant at the breakdown. Bigger tests to come though. 1 down, 4 to go. Roll on Ireland!

[Brian Moores Twin]

Very nice start for England, next week will be interesting.

Well Done England.

Manu or Twelvetrees?

[TJ1]

twelvetrees - offers more than tuilagi on this display.

[GLove39]

20 point win flattered England. 31-18, or if Beattie had latched onto that ball 31-25 would have been a fairer reflection.
Still own worst enemy, ball retention poor. Need Rennie back ASAP.
Still Maitland & Hogg I'll buy you each a pint after that. Also Visser good to see someone's been brushing up on their tackling, very solid today

[Barney McGrew did it]

Lots of positives for England, most of all the persistent attacking intent. A little surprising given a somewhat defensive selection. Farrell does seem to be growing into the role. 36T had a good debut. Vunipola didn’t get carded. However, too many handling errors, a few lost lineouts, not enough pace in the back 3, some poor decision making in defence (Goode & Brown), Morgan going off injured.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

Both? Drop Barritt?

Although I will say Mike Brown definitely looked like a FB on the wing today... Positionally poor a few times. A better kick chase team will punish him!

[BamBam]

Surely we have to keep 36 in, and my own biased opinion is that Tuilagi is undroppable. Hard on Barritt, but 36-Tuilagi combo could be very very good

[Geordie]

It would be interesting to see 36 and tuilagi get some gametime this 6n

[nathan]

20 point win flattered England. 31-18, or if Beattie had latched onto that ball 31-25 would have been a fairer reflection.
Still own worst enemy, ball retention poor. Need Rennie back ASAP.
Still Maitland & Hogg I'll buy you each a pint after that. Also Visser good to see someone's been brushing up on their tackling, very solid today

Not really fair to say that. If England had finished all there missed opportunities Scotland would of still been 20 points behind, perhaps even more.

[nathan]

It would be interesting to see 36 and tuilagi get some gametime this 6n

I agree, I'd like to see that too.

[GLove39]

20 point win flattered England. 31-18, or if Beattie had latched onto that ball 31-25 would have been a fairer reflection.
Still own worst enemy, ball retention poor. Need Rennie back ASAP.
Still Maitland & Hogg I'll buy you each a pint after that. Also Visser good to see someone's been brushing up on their tackling, very solid today

Not really fair to say that. If England had finished all there missed opportunities Scotland would of still been 20 points behind, perhaps even more.

Don't kick a man when he's down!

[R!skysports]

Beattie was in form again at least

[GLove39]

Someone fancy starting a thread where we can lick our wounds and plot out how we're going to dispatch the Azzurri, without being interrupted by the Manu - 12trees debate?

[ChequeredJersey]

20 point win flattered England. 31-18, or if Beattie had latched onto that ball 31-25 would have been a fairer reflection.
Still own worst enemy, ball retention poor. Need Rennie back ASAP.
Still Maitland & Hogg I'll buy you each a pint after that. Also Visser good to see someone's been brushing up on their tackling, very solid today

Well done to Scotland for the tries but I disagree completely. England offered far more in attack all game, butchered and had tries ruled out and build pressure. Scotland scored tried based on individual errors and brilliance, one true breakaway completely against the run of play and one try literally handed over by Brown's silly kick then more importantly naievity in defence. England were far far from perfect and Scotlanf were enterprising but the scoreline, IMBiasedO, flattered Scotland

[nathan]

20 point win flattered England. 31-18, or if Beattie had latched onto that ball 31-25 would have been a fairer reflection.
Still own worst enemy, ball retention poor. Need Rennie back ASAP.
Still Maitland & Hogg I'll buy you each a pint after that. Also Visser good to see someone's been brushing up on their tackling, very solid today

Not really fair to say that. If England had finished all there missed opportunities Scotland would of still been 20 points behind, perhaps even more.

Don't kick a man when he's down!

Sorry mate! Scotland looked good in parts which is an improvement from last year. They'll only get better now!

[ChequeredJersey]

Plus Beattie was on fire

[EnglishReign]

Hogg the biggest Scottish threat for me. Very dangerous, scintillating pace.

Overall, pretty happy. Can't remember an English 6N start as convincing as that and there are still a few errors to get rid of. A tasty looking Irish side awaits next week, I will really fancy England's chances if we win that.

[George Carlin]

Well played England - no real complaints - they looked like a team that had played together for longer. Good offloading, very good in defence and made a couple of crucial turnovers. Farrell excellent, Robshaw very good, Launchbiry very good, Youngs was busy.

Scotland have some work to do in the tight but at least Hogg played well and the wings looked for work.

[Duty281]

I agree, 12Trees and Tuilagi should start next week. It's harsh on Barritt, but you only have to look at Foden to see how uncompromising selection is.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Well played England ferocious in defence and strong in attack, good luck for the rest of the tourney

[lostinwales]

Good game - outside of the breakdown (and that was pretty crucial) Scotland played well - pace was really important. But....

England were immense. Handling right the way through (bar Cole's gut) was so impressive. They never panicked and kept up the pressure all the way through. Thought 36 was really good too - made a couple of early mistakes but never let it get to him. Good start.

Nice to see a game where there just werent controversial ref decisions either - he just didnt need to do too much.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I thought Rolland was beans. He missed a good few forward passes from England, but it changes nothing. England were immensely strong and deserved winners

[allyt2k]

Good English team started where they left off against New Zealand. Scotland just had no ball at all, England were rampant at the breakdown, hardest thing now for England is keeping that pace of the game until 2015.

Positives for Scotland, when we have the ball we have the players who can do something with it now

[lostinwales]

twelvetrees - offers more than tuilagi on this display.

Not yet he doesnt. He does more things than Tuilagi - but Tuilagi is amongst the best attacking centers in the world at the moment. He has scored tries against everyone and he does it because hes not just about running into other players and using power - hes got a step and pace too. We are very very lucky to have him.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Twelvetrees offers more than Barritt you mean.

Tuillagi is pretty one dimensional, but a far better runnerand gamebreaker than either

Lets also not forget that 36 was helped to look good in attack by England seeking to be adventurous and use quick ball through the backs

[majesticimperialman]

I agree, 12Trees and Tuilagi should start next week. It's harsh on Barritt, but you only have to look at Foden to see how uncompromising selection is.

I disagree with you there, next week if both 36 And Manu are fit then i would start with 36 and have Manu on the becnh as cover.

England cannot afford another Mathew Taite type of player. Play him in 1 game, and watch him get tackled and dumped on his rear end (Like Gavin Henson did to Taite ) and then not pick him any more.

[IanBru]

Well done England, you very much deserved to win today. I have no particular bitterness - the ref got some calls wrong, but no single call in isolation would have changed the result.

I wouldn't say Scotland were bad per se, just that England were a solid 25% better in all aspects of the game for 70 minutes.

[Duty281]

I agree, 12Trees and Tuilagi should start next week. It's harsh on Barritt, but you only have to look at Foden to see how uncompromising selection is.

I disagree with you there, next week if both 36 And Manu are fit then i would start with 36 and have Manu on the becnh as cover.

England cannot afford another Mathew Taite type of player. Play him in 1 game, and watch him get tackled and dumped on his rear end (Like Gavin Henson did to Taite ) and then not pick him any more.

That the same Matthew Tait that started in a World Cup Final?

[HammerofThunor]

I agree, 12Trees and Tuilagi should start next week. It's harsh on Barritt, but you only have to look at Foden to see how uncompromising selection is.

I disagree with you there, next week if both 36 And Manu are fit then i would start with 36 and have Manu on the becnh as cover.

England cannot afford another Mathew Taite type of player. Play him in 1 game, and watch him get tackled and dumped on his rear end (Like Gavin Henson did to Taite ) and then not pick him any more.

? He said he'd drop Barritt to the bench. He's had more than 1 game.

Scotland looked decent with the ball they had. Hopefully they'll progress as the competition goes on.

Last time this happened was 2007. We ended up in 3rd following a loss to a Wales team coached by Jenkins and had lost every other game. First match doesn't mean a lot.

[Exiledinborders]

twelvetrees - offers more than tuilagi on this display.

Obvious solution. Play both
12 36
13 Manu

Seems harsh on Barritt who is so solid but in truth does not offer much in attack. Only downside is that Barritt leads the defence.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I dont think Farrell is a fan favorite yet but he is slowly changing opinions...nice vision that ford couldnt show last night....

Really? Why not? His kicking's very good.

This is the first game hes ever really bought the backs to life from the off. His lack of running threat and previously standing deep has blunted england as an attacking force in many games, hence why he got dropped for Flood.

This game though weve seen the difference having acreative 12 outside him makes. Something a lot of people were calling for from last winter, a combination of 36 and Tuillagi outside him when the sides playing with that kind of confidence would have fabulous balance.

His goalkicking is the trump card. I dont think there can be an argument that Owf has grown rapidly since been selected by England. A big game player. I was converted from a sceptic in the NZ game, Im now firmly impressed by him. Flood can do things he cant (and tried to show his running game in his cameo) but OF looked in total control today. Hes been in great for for Saracens too

[WELL-PAST-IT]

What interested me the most was that when Morgan went off injured, Wood played 8 and Haskell 6. I thought he looked very comfortable there, possibly a way of getting Croft back into the team.

A back five of Launchberry, Lawes, Parling perm 2 from 3, Croft, Robshaw and Wood, would be a very aggressive defensive unit and by most standards a great attacking threat, by back 5 standards pace accross the whole unit, good at making the yards in the tight and very good in the looser stuff.

[mystiroakey]

"This is the first game hes ever really bought the backs to life from the off. His lack of running threat and previously standing deep has blunted england as an attacking force in many games, hence why he got dropped for Flood."

incorrect - did you not watch the NZ game for starters..

[George Carlin]

For someone of his age, Farrell is exceptional.

When talking Lions, he doesn't have the overall game that Sexton has but there's no reason whatsover that he should have. Sexton has 6 years on him. Farrell no. 2 for the 10 jersey and is clearly some distance ahead of Burns, Ford or Cips. England safely have a 10 that they can build their team around and they should be grateful for that.

Some abysmal decisions by the gigantic girl's shirt that is Rolland and the forward pass for 36 made me very, very angry because he was standing right on the gain line and should have called it, but as pointed out above, none of his Stevie Wonder-esque calls would have affected who won the game.

[HammerofThunor]

"This is the first game hes ever really bought the backs to life from the off. His lack of running threat and previously standing deep has blunted england as an attacking force in many games, hence why he got dropped for Flood."

incorrect - did you not watch the NZ game for starters..

One try for Tuilagi breaking tackles. One try from Tuilagi intercepting. One try from Barritt going through a big hole. Farrell created nothing in that game for the backs. He kicked well and defended well. This time he seemed to hardly kick at all and passed well.

[mystiroakey]

BUt i do agree that flood proved what he can do- that silky run when he came on was something else..

Also another shout out for youngs.. he didnt miss a pass all game and he was quick and selected well.

We did 100% take the second half play against NZ in to this game because we were running hard and fast at the scotish defense and we were knocking him back. But i think we were slightly slower in getting players in to rucks at breakdowns.

I think Scotland should also feel quite positive to be honest. I saw alot to be positive about

[mystiroakey]

"This is the first game hes ever really bought the backs to life from the off. His lack of running threat and previously standing deep has blunted england as an attacking force in many games, hence why he got dropped for Flood."

incorrect - did you not watch the NZ game for starters..

One try for Tuilagi breaking tackles. One try from Tuilagi intercepting. One try from Barritt going through a big hole. Farrell created nothing in that game for the backs. He kicked well and defended well. This time he seemed to hardly kick at all and passed well.

I would have to rewatdh the game to verify that- But from what i can remeber he created alot for backs- second half.. We may not have converted from those oppourtunities though..

[Alex_Germany]

Nice game to watch.

For Scotland - I thought visser looked vulnerable from the moment he completely failed to deal with Morgan. But Beattie, Hogg and Maitland looked "Lions-class". The rest were failing to deal with tackles.

For England, some points:
- I thought Cole was merely good. His "least-best" game for a while with a number of dropped balls.
- Rest of the pack looked very good. Haskell performed really well when he came on.

The back three was a bit of mess. A mis aimed kick and no chase led to Scotland's first try. Then caught in possession near the end. Centres and Half backs were great - I think that was the difference between the sides. 36 had a great debut - looks a real threat in attack.

Restarts weren't well claimed - I seem to recall one or two kicks were the player coming forward wasn't allowed to take the ball as someone coming back was there. Need to sort that.

Next week:
- Choose a winger for the left wing. Foden, Goode and Browne are great players and looked fine in attack but a bit out of it in defence.
- If Manu is fit, that's a bit of a dilemma. Barritt has done nothing wrong and was again solid in defence, but a 36-Tuilagi partnership could be world class. Do we keep Barritt to shackle O'Driscoll? Or do we bring in Manu to "occupy" him?
- Morgan's injury looked a bit serious. Wood played well at 8 - or Haskell at 8 if Morgan's out.

Overall a pretty good performance against a pretty good Scottish side, but need to cut out handling errors.

[LondonTiger]

Mysti, the point being made was that this was the first time Farrell brought the backs into play from the off - ie from the start.

First half against NZ was a stunning display of aggressive defence (and top notch goal kicking) but England did not run the ball.

Today Farrell was very, very good. Excellent composure and a surprising mix of passing. 36 outside him really helped as he was always an attacking threat. Barritt was dependable - but is he an outside centre?

Finally full-back. I think it is great that we have 3 excellent options but should we shoehorn one into the team by picking them out of place? At times Brown was excellent, but at times he looked a touch naive. Goode did not have his best game for England, and perhaps looked a little lightweight.

[aitchw]

Seems to me that Lancaster is developing a player pool that has strength in depth. I'm far less worried about injuries wrecking the progress than I was 4 months ago. Ben Youngs finding some form again, real attacking intent from the backs, excellent work from the forwards, I'd say things are looking good. There's still a lot to work on but every game shows progress.

I was really glad to see some real signs that Scotland could have a decent side by the end of this campaign if injuries don't interfere.

Two great games today with the England performance the most reassuring.

[lostinwales]

Worth mentioning Cole's work in defense when Scotland were in the England 22 in the middle of the 1st half I think. He just stood his ground under waves of Scotland attack until he secured the turn over and penalty. I think he had one nice little run too - but the pass he tried to catch with his stomach was just funny (given that we won by so much)

[mystiroakey]

"Mysti, the point being made was that this was the first time Farrell brought the backs into play from the off - ie from the start.

First half against NZ was a stunning display of aggressive defence (and top notch goal kicking) but England did not run the ball.
"

Should we asume this is Farrels previous negatives or SL's game plan?

[HammerofThunor]

"Mysti, the point being made was that this was the first time Farrell brought the backs into play from the off - ie from the start.

First half against NZ was a stunning display of aggressive defence (and top notch goal kicking) but England did not run the ball.
"

Should we asume this is Farrels previous negatives or SL's game plan?

I think a reasonably big part is/was the plan. Nichol called it right. Lancaster has been building and developing the team and it does seem to be coming together. Much like with Tuilagi. Very good passing and offloading but not used. When he is it comes good.

[stub]

Seems to me that Lancaster is developing a player pool that has strength in depth. I'm far less worried about injuries wrecking the progress than I was 4 months ago. Ben Youngs finding some form again, real attacking intent from the backs, excellent work from the forwards, I'd say things are looking good. There's still a lot to work on but every game shows progress.

I was really glad to see some real signs that Scotland could have a decent side by the end of this campaign if injuries don't interfere.

Two great games today with the England performance the most reassuring.

+1 aitchw - bless you by the way!!

[LondonTiger]

Should we asume this is Farrels previous negatives or SL's game plan?

Probably both. Farrell is a young man and still rather inexperienced. His attitude is excellent and he will continue to improve. Meanwhile we can start to see how Lancaster wants them to play. Aggressive defence and looking to secure turnovers came first, but the high tempo, high offload game we saw today is the start of an attacking plan.

[Alex_Germany]

Worth mentioning Cole's work in defense when Scotland were in the England 22 in the middle of the 1st half I think. He just stood his ground under waves of Scotland attack until he secured the turn over and penalty. I think he had one nice little run too - but the pass he tried to catch with his stomach was just funny (given that we won by so much)

I'll have to rewatch. I thought he wasn't his usual world class today. Given the absence of our other "world class / Lions-class player"*, I thought today went great.

*I think the BBC pundits selecting their Lions didn't watch any rugby over the Autumn. I wonder if they'll have noticed Wales' performance today.

[stub]

twelvetrees - offers more than tuilagi on this display.

Obvious solution. Play both
12 36
13 Manu

Seems harsh on Barritt who is so solid but in truth does not offer much in attack. Only downside is that Barritt leads the defence.

I think stick with Barritt and Manu - 36 offers something different off the bench.

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