England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[BamBam]

Having not seen a lot of 36, but reading a lot about him on this board and others I thought he was great.

It sounds as though he has more to give, I don't really remember him kicking, or many passes other than his terrific offloads, and he wasn't too tested in defence either. Seeing as many here said he was a "distributor" I can't wait to see how those skills show in the Test arena, he has to stay in the team in my book

[Alex_Germany]

Having not seen a lot of 36, but reading a lot about him on this board and others I thought he was great.

It sounds as though he has more to give, I don't really remember him kicking, or many passes other than his terrific offloads, and he wasn't too tested in defence either. Seeing as many here said he was a "distributor" I can't wait to see how those skills show in the Test arena, he has to stay in the team in my book

36 offloading to Tuilagi - and vice-versa - could be lethal.

[king_carlos]

A good game to watch for the most part where both teams could've played better. I'll always take a win though and there were many positives to take from it.

Even as one of Farrell big critics I must admit he proved a few of my ideas about him wrong today, let's just hope he can continue in that vain. Marler likewise held up well in the scrum against Murray and Cole was good as ever round the park. Parling and Launchberry impressed around the park and the back-row looked very good in my opinion.

Best of all I thought was how Twelvetrees took to Int rugby, I'd love to see him and Tuilagi start the next game but could understand if Barritt kept his place.

The few bad points would have to be too many kicks still going too deep and the line-out struggling at times. The offloading game was much better than we've seen for years but the players need to learn when to force it and when to crash it up/reset (something NZ and Aus are exceptional at).

All in all I'll definitely take that from the first game!

[stub]

I imagine that we will see it at some point (Manu and 36) . I'm not saying that it will necessarily be a bad thing but I reckon Barritt looks dangerous too. Nice problem to have.

[doctor_grey]

I'd be a little concerned ot take Barritt out of the midfield right now, even for Tuilagi. His defense is terrific. Probably the best time to try that combo would be against Italy. If Tuilagi is healthy, I wonder if he comes straight back in?

Next week's match will be immense, both teams showing well.

[nathan]

I'd be a little concerned ot take Barritt out of the midfield right now, even for Tuilagi. His defense is terrific. Probably the best time to try that combo would be against Italy. If Tuilagi is healthy, I wonder if he comes straight back in?

Next week's match will be immense, both teams showing well.

I can see there being a change at 50mins again. Next week will be interesting.

[doctor_grey]

Your'e probably right. But, for me, it goes against the grain to replace players if doing well. And, I am making the leap of faith they will be doing well. But, then again, Lancaster would probably make that change right there. Not sure why he doesn't consult with me.

[nathan]

Your'e probably right. But, for me, it goes against the grain to replace players if doing well. And, I am making the leap of faith they will be doing well. But, then again, Lancaster would probably make that change right there. Not sure why he doesn't consult with me.

Lol, I think he's trying to build experience through the whole squad. Think we'll see the rewards for that in the future when we hit high injury periods.

[doctor_grey]

No doubts. But I suppose my problem is that I struggle to reconcile today's results with the future. Next season, if 2013 is successful, we will look back and know Lancaster's moves were the right ones. But it doesn't make me feel better today. Thaht is probably why Lancaster doesn't consult with me.

[Taylorman]

Have to admit Englands looking good Doc. Couple of lapses in the same way the ABs let in tries- the long range ones when they drop their guard. So I suppose thats a good criticism.

Ive always thought the best teams always have good inside backs and Englands looking strong in this area with twelvetrees entering the fray- he looks the real mccoy.

Making those regular continuity gains made by the forwards count by the inside backs cant be underestimated- illustrated best by Sonny Bills exploits last year- it adds another dimension to the attack and England are appreciating that with the way they ripped through the middle against the AB's and against Scotland today- twelvetrees try for example.

Lancaster seems to have built an extra dimension into this side.

[Hood83]

I think there's a fair bit more to come from both teams. On England:

- I still think in the first half we were attacking too slow and from too deep. Our guys need to come on to the ball at a LOT more pace regularly. I think the slowness of Scotland's line speed, which on occasion was awful, helped massively.
- Our rucking appears miles better than previously. Not necessarily in technique but in aggression. I thought Hartley was good when he came on but Tom Youngs rucking alone is worth keeping him in the team for now.
- I think the mobility of Wood, Robshaw, Parling and Launchbury is generally a massive plus, but worried me when Beattie started running. It's good they can get to the action quickly, but are they collectively a little below the power to beat a team like SA?
- Haskell. I know he can be a plonker, and I'm not saying i'd start him, but he was the only player who physically bested Beattie. His ripping work was incredible as was his defence. If his fitness looks good, he's not far off starting for me, possibly for Wood.
- Couldn't see anything from B Youngs to convince me he should be ahead of Care, who i still believe has a better, quicker pass.
- Hope Morgan is alright, he was a having a top game.
- Our depth is brilliant. Lawes looked good when he came on.
- Not entirely convinced by the double FB approach. I'd rather Brown at FB and a winger on the wing.

[nathan]

I think there's a fair bit more to come from both teams. On England:

- I still think in the first half we were attacking too slow and from too deep. Our guys need to come on to the ball at a LOT more pace regularly. I think the slowness of Scotland's line speed, which on occasion was awful, helped massively.
- Our rucking appears miles better than previously. Not necessarily in technique but in aggression. I thought Hartley was good when he came on but Tom Youngs rucking alone is worth keeping him in the team for now.
- I think the mobility of Wood, Robshaw, Parling and Launchbury is generally a massive plus, but worried me when Beattie started running. It's good they can get to the action quickly, but are they collectively a little below the power to beat a team like SA?
- Haskell. I know he can be a plonker, and I'm not saying i'd start him, but he was the only player who physically bested Beattie. His ripping work was incredible as was his defence. If his fitness looks good, he's not far off starting for me, possibly for Wood.
- Couldn't see anything from B Youngs to convince me he should be ahead of Care, who i still believe has a better, quicker pass. - Hope Morgan is alright, he was a having a top game.
- Our depth is brilliant. Lawes looked good when he came on.
- Not entirely convinced by the double FB approach. I'd rather Brown at FB and a winger on the wing.

Am I the only one who thought b. Youngs had a good game??

[doctor_grey]

Right, Taylor. The team is certainly playing to a plan and have the players to do it. Its a nice change for England to have the good centres and now there might actually be competition at 12 and 13. And that will drive performance even further.

My critiques about the game are only a few.
Agree about the Scotland long range tries, I think the team was so sucked into attack they were no in position when the ball was turned over.

I also think the team is chucking the ball around too much. Most of the turnovers were from too much ball movement. How many times did England lose the ball down near the Scotland line? A lot, and most were unforced. The scoreline could have been much more one sided. Regarding passing too much, people much remember this is England. We simply don't do this.

Finally, the England kick-offs were too long. England couldn't contest for any of them. Rugby is a contest and almost every type of play should be contested, whenever possible or appropriate.

Its nice, though, to sit here after a good win and think about all the positives. There were quite a few, which makes it easier to think about the negatives, because there were not too many.

[mystiroakey]

"
Am I the only one who thought b. Youngs had a good game?"


certainly not- almost everyone else has praised his performance

[doctor_grey]

Nathan, Youngs was fine. Only complaint was his delivery was sometimes a little slow. But clearly did well.

[Hood83]

I think there's a fair bit more to come from both teams. On England:

- I still think in the first half we were attacking too slow and from too deep. Our guys need to come on to the ball at a LOT more pace regularly. I think the slowness of Scotland's line speed, which on occasion was awful, helped massively.
- Our rucking appears miles better than previously. Not necessarily in technique but in aggression. I thought Hartley was good when he came on but Tom Youngs rucking alone is worth keeping him in the team for now.
- I think the mobility of Wood, Robshaw, Parling and Launchbury is generally a massive plus, but worried me when Beattie started running. It's good they can get to the action quickly, but are they collectively a little below the power to beat a team like SA?
- Haskell. I know he can be a plonker, and I'm not saying i'd start him, but he was the only player who physically bested Beattie. His ripping work was incredible as was his defence. If his fitness looks good, he's not far off starting for me, possibly for Wood.
- Couldn't see anything from B Youngs to convince me he should be ahead of Care, who i still believe has a better, quicker pass. - Hope Morgan is alright, he was a having a top game.
- Our depth is brilliant. Lawes looked good when he came on.
- Not entirely convinced by the double FB approach. I'd rather Brown at FB and a winger on the wing.

Am I the only one who thought b. Youngs had a good game??

Don't worry, i think i'm in the minority here. I thought he was good, i just thought Care was better. Young's pause pass drives me mad.

[RDW]

I've given my comments on the Scotland thread but just wanted to say well done England - awesome physicallity that we just couldn't cope with. We did our best to make life easy for you with our terrible defencive system, but we just couldn't cope.

So well done England - very well deserved win.

[Geordie]

Seems now.that the coach coaching teams ideas are slowly coming together. Not perfect but we can see what they are trying to achieve and their loyalty in the boys are beginning to come through...and as a huge Farrell critic...I'm beginning to be converted...control the.game at ten then play from 12 & 13. Morgan showed his running presence also...

[Alex_Germany]

I've given my comments on the Scotland thread but just wanted to say well done England - awesome physicallity that we just couldn't cope with. We did our best to make life easy for you with our terrible defencive system, but we just couldn't cope.

So well done England - very well deserved win.

It didn't look too easy. For scotland, I don't think England at Twickenham is the right place to judge. Calcutta cup is always different. The true test is can you beat beat Wales and Italy at Murrayfield. i think you can. Ireland are looking good though, and France in Paris is as likely as winning away against Australia

[nobbled]

Anyone else like the idea of 36 Tuilagi backline?

[lostinwales]

Anyone else like the idea of 36 Tuilagi backline?

Everybody - but then Barritt is looking better every game he plays. He isnt as 'offensive' as the other two but his defense is so good -he never seems to make errors and hes more and more visible in attack

[Geordie]

I agree barritt looked like he actually had something today. Is this the coaches system slowly coming in?

And are the players starting to understand it and play to it.

There will be defeats but...it's encouraging

[sickofwendy]

I don't think goode has enough pace to be an international full back.I also think Ben youngs was replaced too early.I also learned that mako vunipola has a great sidestep and that James haskell has matured into a great player.I think next week will be a cracker and will come down to very fine margins.
P.S.mike brown really wants to score a try.

[BristolDave]

Barritt certainly seems to be growing into test rugby after a slowish start. Can only be good for England if he continues to improve.

[Geordie]

IsI'd also prefer to see brown at 15 and a winger at 11.... BUT Lancs is doing things small steps at a time so...let's see where we go.

Defeats will come...but hey 2015 is slowly becoming interesting...

[lostinwales]

Interesting interview with Goode in the Indy today (sat) . Talks a bit about how demands and fashions change with full back probably more than any other position, and that there are two basic kinds - the playmaker and the speedster, and we know what type he is. How necessary he is with the arrival of 36 is another question. He is an intelligent player which can be a valuable thing, and he'll have much better games than today.

It also says that Goode is faster than he looks 'low slung' but you cant help thinking what you see.

[Hood83]

IsI'd also prefer to see brown at 15 and a winger at 11.... BUT Lancs is doing things small steps at a time so...let's see where we go.

Defeats will come...but hey 2015 is slowly becoming interesting...

Agree with this.

Also, if Scotland had had any sort of line speed I think today could have been a little different. The tardiness of their backline gave us acres of room. It seems I am now the only guy who thinks Farrell has quite a way to go to be a top FH.

[lostinwales]

IsI'd also prefer to see brown at 15 and a winger at 11.... BUT Lancs is doing things small steps at a time so...let's see where we go.

Defeats will come...but hey 2015 is slowly becoming interesting...

Agree with this.

Also, if Scotland had had any sort of line speed I think today could have been a little different. The tardiness of their backline gave us acres of room. It seems I am now the only guy who thinks Farrell has quite a way to go to be a top FH.

Farrell - he may have a long way to go but after today I am beginning to believe he can make it.

[DaveM]

Really pleased with the way England played. They are trying to develop a proper attacking game based on moving the ball and off-loading. They were generating quick ball, and some turnovers conceded are inevitable in those circumstances.

Positives for me:

- The breakdown. England have gone from being hopeless to being really good in about a year.
- Coming onto the bal at pace: I've not seen an England side in recent years who got the ball to people arriving at pace so often. Time and time again England got over the gainline - highly impressive. I could add that the Quins style off-loading is coming on nicely too.
- Mike Brown: I thought he was fantastic, staying on his feet and making ground
- Twelvetrees: Like many others I've thought for years he'd be a natural at IC for the senior side, and he is. Carrying the ball on good lines in both hands - it sounds easy but it clearly isn't. Farrell looks a far better player with him in the side.

Barritt was workmanlike but no more for me. He doesn't have the pace to regularly play 13 at international level and doesn't have the footballing skills of 36 at IC. Twelvetrees/Tuilagi has so much potential behind what is now a highly effective English pack.

[IanBru]

On a slight side note, does anyone else think Billy Twelvetrees looks exactly like Shooter McGavin?

[Hood83]

Really pleased with the way England played. They are trying to develop a proper attacking game based on moving the ball and off-loading. They were generating quick ball, and some turnovers conceded are inevitable in those circumstances.

Positives for me:

- The breakdown. England have gone from being hopeless to being really good in about a year.
- Coming onto the bal at pace: I've not seen an England side in recent years who got the ball to people arriving at pace so often. Time and time again England got over the gainline - highly impressive. I could add that the Quins style off-loading is coming on nicely too.
- Mike Brown: I thought he was fantastic, staying on his feet and making ground
- Twelvetrees: Like many others I've thought for years he'd be a natural at IC for the senior side, and he is. Carrying the ball on good lines in both hands - it sounds easy but it clearly isn't. Farrell looks a far better player with him in the side.

Barritt was workmanlike but no more for me. He doesn't have the pace to regularly play 13 at international level and doesn't have the footballing skills of 36 at IC. Twelvetrees/Tuilagi has so much potential behind what is now a highly effective English pack.

Agree with most of this except the coming on to pace bit, our back-line in particular received it very deep and often at a stand-still, they were then gifted about 15 metres to get some momentum by an appallingly slow Scottish defensive line. The only exception was for 36's try. I think we have a lot of work to do when we come up against a proper blitz defence.

But, pleased with the result and some good individual performances.

[DaveM]

I didn't think Scotland defended that badly, and I just don't think all those lines breaks were the result of a static or retreating defensive line. England had plenty of runners coming onto the ball and few of the once common incidents where people get the ball standing still and got knocked back.

[ChequeredJersey]

My views on the match and the players


Good at last to see an attacking game plan by both sides, was nervous for the first 10 but thought England offered far more throughout. However, individually the Scottish back 3 and Beattie looked more dangerous than any single English player. It also looks like we might be able to play a plan a and a plan b now!

Defensively both sides had frailties but that will always be the case in an attacking game. Ref was passable but not great as expected. Think Scotland will build on this and trouble another big team. Think England can get the Slam but equally could end up 3rd- Ireland and France will be hard, hard matches, the former have their tails up, the latter finally have some consistency, Club form and a great squad. Also Wales will want to make up for their first 50 mins and build on their last half an hour. Looking to be a great tourney.


As for the players:

England- Goode- 7. Important for the gameplan and his distribution adds a unique style to England, however he, like Brown, was culpable in defence and a little hesistant in attack

Ashton- 7. Some poor defence but an excellently finished try and some lively runs off his wing

Barritt- 6. Solid and unspectacular but showed glimpses of attacking intent. Good to know we have such a reliable option at centre. I really feel we will soon be building a first 15 plus a squad that can realistically fit in around it which is what we need.

Twelvetrees- 8. A couple of errors but some tasty runs, decent defence and a really good debut

Brown- 6. Really good in attack and never accepts he is tackled, always makes yards and beats men and plays with the aggression we need. When he makes his tackles they are great but I'm still angry about the kick and marking for the Maitland try, and the penalty he gave for holding late on. Should really be FB or not playing.

Farrell- 8. He can attack? As well as his kicks I saw a genuine passing and running threat for the first time ever.

Youngs- 7.5. Some average passing and not perfect but a real threat and looks like his form is back. Definitely the best 9 on show today as Phillips proved most of the doubts I have about him to be correct. Again.

Morgan- 7. As ever, faded from the game a bit but a couple of his runs were rampaging. Lacks the pace of Beattie but proved no easier to tackle

Robshaw- 8. Everywhere and doing everything, even made ground on the carry. With his helpers, dominated the breakdown.

Wood-7. Faded a bit but still a great foil to his captain, did surprisingly well at 8.

Parling- 7. Strong all around game capped with a try. Looks much better than I ever thought he would at this level

Launchbury- 7.5. Carried off where he started from, nearly scored, great at the breakdown

Cole-6. Quiet game with a couple of drops and helped Brown give Scotland a try but still vital at the breakdown and a force at the scrum where he dealt with the gifted Grant well. Only a 6 because his standards are so high, so it's a compliment.

Youngs- 6. Solid game in most aspects but lost a try with a silly penalty and threw a couple of wayward passes.

Marler-7. Dealt with Murray easily enough at scrumtime. Finally showed a bit of what he can do in the loose and set up Ashton with a sweet pass.

Subs- all did OK, Care made some errors but passed well and scored a trademark try at the death. Didn't notice much from Strettle. Haskell looked hungry, powerful and worked hard.


May have gotten carried away but on the whole I think those scores are merited.


Scotland-

Hogg-8 looks the real deal, great attack throughout and great try

Maitland-6.5. Took his try well and looked dangerous but some defensive issues

Lamont- 5. Didn't notice him to be honest

Scott-6.5. Defence an issue but looks the best 12 Scotland have had in my memory.

Visser- 6. A threat in attack (sorry can't think if a better way to phrase that than that cliched phrase I have overused here!) but kicked too much

Jackson- 5. Poor game but deprived of a lot of ball

Laidlaw- 4. Not his best game, sure he will do better later in the tournament.

Beattie-8.5 my MOM, back with a bang. Worked hard, did his basics and looked silky smooth on the run, the out of the back of the hand dummy was sexual.

Brown- 6. Worked hard out of position and captained quite well but must take some responsibility for the breakdown.

Strokosch- 4.5. Was he on the pitch?

Gray- 6. Good lineouts, ok around the park. Good save on the crossfield kick.

Hamilton- 5.5. Solid and unremarkable. Does his job with little fuss.

Murray- 5. Did ok but was edged by Marler and Cole in the scrum

Hall- 5.5. Lineout looked ok to me, otherwise average

Grant- 6 lost out at scrum time but did well vs Cole. Looks an excellent find

Subs- Ford looked better than Hall to me. Kellock was meh. Pyrgos better than Laidlaw at 9.

[ChequeredJersey]

Ah, Stroks genuinely wasn't on the pitch for most of the match. I apologies to him. Denton was anonymous

[lostinwales]

Just checked match stats

Morgan ran 7 times for 48m - 2 clean breaks 5 defenders beaten
Beattie ran 9 times for 25m - 1 clean break 3 defenders beaten

Beattie looked good - but 'looked' better because he was running in space with the ball one handed late on in the game
Morgan was running right through heavy traffic early on

I am not trying to say Beattie wasnt good - but Morgan was better and was working harder than I expected (Even with Mr 'tackling optional' Visser..)

[belovedfrosties]

I agree lostinwales, Beattie made one flashy run (as did Morgan early on) but for the rest of the game was fairly easily contained. Morgan and Faletau were the best 8s on display today.

[ChequeredJersey]

Fair enough, if that's what the stats say

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Whisper it softly, but if England field the same starting XV in Dublin next week, they will have an aggregate of 201 caps compared with BOD's 127.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

On the Twelvetrees front, I fear that once again people are seeing one performance and seeing a career. Billy's performance was impressive yesterday but if put into perspective, it has to measured in the context of the strength of the opposition - Scotland. I thought that if anything, 36 pushed his own envelope a little to hard and forced things a little and overall accuracy was lost. England should in my opinion have put fifty points on the board.

For me the stand-out improvement came from Owen Farrell who played on the gain line and not 5m back. But again the proof of the pudding will be in Dublin next week where the opposition and the environment will be much less comfortable.

International coaches notice stuff. 36 will be analysed to the nth degree and I doubt that he'll be picked over Manu (if fit) because Ireland away is a different kettle of fish to Scotland at home and caution will probably prevail.

What Andy Farrell/SL plan for Owen is intriguing. I hope that they order more of the same front foot tactics from him in order to develop the burgeoning talent in the back line. But this, I repeat, is Ireland - a step up in class and difficulty.

[Taylorman]

On the Twelvetrees front, I fear that once again people are seeing one performance and seeing a career. Billy's performance was impressive yesterday but if put into perspective, it has to measured in the context of the strength of the opposition - Scotland.

I thought he went well and looked the part. Should he have played someone else yesterday.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

On the Twelvetrees front, I fear that once again people are seeing one performance and seeing a career. Billy's performance was impressive yesterday but if put into perspective, it has to measured in the context of the strength of the opposition - Scotland.

I thought he went well and looked the part. Should he have played someone else yesterday.

Not at all. 36 was already ready to step up as he's shown at Glaws this year. Just that some people extrapolate a lot in terms of expectations from little evidence. Overall he had an excellent day but it has to be set in context - this was a relatively weak/disappointing Scotland with a new coach on their first outing.

Farrell is my main focus of interest - will (can) he marshal an attacking style against a much superior side?

[mystiroakey]

"Farrell is my main focus of interest - will (can) he marshal an attacking style against a much superior side?"

Will SL have the balls to let him try and do that??

[Portnoy's Complaint]

"Farrell is my main focus of interest - will (can) he marshal an attacking style against a much superior side?"

Will SL have the balls to let him try and do that??

I honestly don't know. After initial misgivings about SL and in particular Andy Farrell, I'm slowly coming around to appreciate his appointment (leaving aside any necessity to sack MJ).

We must remember that the perceived 'progress' over the past twelve months is pretty stuttering - indeed up 'til the ABs game, it was at best flat-lining.

Nobody should be blinded into think that one one-off good performance against NZ and one fair one against Scotland should obscure the overall drabness of our performances in the Summer and the Autumn against SA and Australia.

So as David Cameron might say, your question is a very good one. If SL/AF have the balls to get OF out of the pocket against Ireland, France and Wales (they don't have to win each) and play with attacking intent, then I may buy into the new regime.

But until then I'd describe myself as optimistic but sceptical.

[mystiroakey]

I dont think we have flat lined at all..

I think SL would have to show balls(if not being slightly wishfall thinking if he thinks we should start the game in a complete expansive game v ireland)

I think SL has played things horses for courses and showed that we have many different plans available to us- because we can play all the styles (defensive, attrition, hitting teams on there weaknesses(ireland last year)- or expansive when we need to or can)

Look at every tour or tourny under SL..

6 nation last year.. started off getting the basics right- limit penalties given- then we improved and became more expanisove each game,.

V SA in SA- got better and more physical throughout the series and ended matching the Saffas


The AI's

the one poorish game under his reign v aus.. However we still competed- and still could have won..... V SA - i thought we had the morale victory(cough cough)- i thought we played better or at the worse matched them- But SA's confidence and experience took them over the oline(or you could even say a bit of luck- bouncing ball try- in horrid conditions!!)

then v NZ- played the perfcet kicking attrotion game and out played NZ., then when NZ hit us with what they can- we then had no other option but to try and match if not beat them with that style(they took control) but we beat them at it!

Then v scotland - first game to start off expansive.. It reminded me of a typical NZ performnace(or man u in football)- doesnt matter what you score- we will score more!!

But will SL start that way v ireland- I think he has a massive dilema on his hands tbh..

The irish will be fired up as well..

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Of course they will.
But you'd expect that from every Home nation.
That comes as part of the deal with being English.

[George Carlin]

I think that it would be braver of SL to drop Farrell now.

Was there anything actually wrong with his attacking play? The Parling try was down to him making the correct call. In any event, I'd rather my 10 was kicking goals at 100% first - improved attacking play comes with experience and confidence.

[mystiroakey]

I would never drop OF..

However my point is- Is SL telling OF how to play..

When we have someone that looks to be improving in his footballing skills yet is like an ICE queen when kicking we can not get rid!!

And I think all the OF sceptics will agree with that as well.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

If you read back George, I was praising Farrell for his play yesterday. The danger is that he's given instructions to sit back in the pocket again, then yes, he'll be picked for his kicking but not for the development of the back line attacking threat. That'd then be a real conundrum just as the Irish have had to face by keeping ROG on too long or even worse, Wales with Neil Jenkins who had to be played somewhere, somehow.

However England is blessed currently with some depth (apart from TH). So maybe there are realistic alternatives to OF if necessary.

[Taylorman]

I agree with Mysti, England are showing theyre definitely on the up. NZ had a similar match with Scotland recently- let in a couple- 3- tries but ran away in general in the same way England did.

Be interesting how France go against Italy but it looks like the winner will already be either England, France or Ireland- likely that order prior to seeing the French match. Wales are not going to get off the ground soon and could dip below 4th this year if we're all eyes open.

[yappysnap]

Pleased with that result, good to see the team have a gameplan of offloading and taking the ball at paice and aren't afraid to carry on trying even when they man sausage it up.

Very refreshing compared to past regimes.

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