Ireland post Mortem/new coach/new team thread

[Standulstermen]

First topic message reminder :

May as well let the match thread die and have all our ramblings in one place.

Is kidney gone?
Who will be the new coach?
Will BOD, D'arcy, ROG retire?
Changes for France?


All in here guys.

My own selection for France would be

Kilcoyne (Healy if allowed)
Best
Ross
Ryan
Henderson (would be tempted by him at 6 but our tight 5 needs ball carriers)
POM
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Jackson
Gilroy
Marshall
BOD
?
Kearney

Cronin, court, fitz, DOC, O'Donnell, Reddan, madigan, ?

Can't decide on who spdeserves the wing/outside back bench slot. Best, Kearney need good games.

[Standulstermen]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Agree with that. He can stand indicted on previous selections but he made progressive selection there. We all called for it and sadly it backfired

[GunsGerms]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Agree with that. He can stand indicted on previous selections but he made progressive selection there. We all called for it and sadly it backfired

Backfire?? Thought the debutants were excellent.

[funnyExiledScot]

I thought Luke Marshall played well, very encouraging. BOD has messed up his fair share of two on ones over his career, and at times his passing has been nothing but average, so I think it's harsh to mark down Marshall too much for putting that pass too far in front of Gilroy, and his knock on at the end was 50/50 really. The pass from ROG wasn't ideal.

I think you'd have won the game had Heaslip simply kicked the available points in the first half. I really think that was your undoing. By giving Scotland a chance to defend you were always taking a gamble.

I don't think Kidney is maximising Ireland's potential, and I think he'll probably go at the end of the tournament, but Heaslip et al need to take a big chunk of the blame for yesterday.

[red_stag]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Agree with that. He can stand indicted on previous selections but he made progressive selection there. We all called for it and sadly it backfired

Backfire? I dont think it backfired at all. Marshall made mistakes but overall he did well.

Every player makes some mistakes. That was my point.

I think selection arguments gets over stated in the arguments against Kidney. The reason I think he should leave is that he always had two big strenghts:

- Surrounding himself with quality coaches

- Getting the best out of his players using his man management skills

He hasnt done either very well IMO and he hasnt had the results to back it up.

I dont see point in firing him at this stage. Just let he contract run out in May and look elsewhere.

Ideally appoint a man with no ties to Irish Rugby. Accusations of bias destroy the togetherness of our fans.

[rodders]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Agree with that. He can stand indicted on previous selections but he made progressive selection there. We all called for it and sadly it backfired

Backfire?? Thought the debutants were excellent.

Me too, you guys have lost your marbles.....

[SecretFly]

You may not like it but it is true. His job at this level is not to teach people how to pass, execute 2 on 1s etc. The approach and tactics were spot on the stats may not reflect the result but they do emphatically endorse the game plan. If he has lost the dressing room then that is more of a problem, but the only spat I have heard of is with BOD and he will be gone sooner rather than later. Kidney does not seem to be a hugely inspirational character and maybe this is a problem especially with the established leaders in the team coming to an end of their careers. Maybe he needs to do what Gatland did. Bring a crop of young players who are somewhat in awe of him and will chew broken glass to keep him happy

Kidney has done more for Ireland International in Rugby terms than O'Driscoll? O'Driscoll is the stick in the spokes? O'Driscoll is the bad karma around camp? O'Driscoll is the one responsible for the sourness and lack of confidence in Kidney's great system?

Hmmm..................... no response needed.

On the next point - what does Kidney do? What does he get paid for? Why is he around? Why has he a good enough salary (better than the average industrial wage anyway ?

Why Dragon? We've already been told years ago that he doesn't coach. He doesn't do the technical stuff. That's after he was given the credit for the GS. So it moved on that he was more just a perfect man manager, who knows instinctively how to get the best out of players. Well, that worked for a while, a short while...and then that man management thing began to unwind.

So then we got told it's because the 'Golden Generation' were coming to the natural end of their cycle and he didn't have sufficient players coming in to take over their substantial roles. 'Huh?', I said - 'so that means Munster success was more the actual players on the field during the good times than anything Kidney was doing?' Because if he could do it then - with then unknowns - and was given public credit for being the one doing it - then surely starting out again with Ireland is just more of the same please?

So what does Kidney actually do if he doesn't do the practical coaching and he isn't all that great at the inspiration or in choosing best players? He's just gotta be getting paid to do something! I hope! Ireland can't afford him if not. And even if we can, we can't

[red_stag]

Rodders I am not saying it was a bad decision to play Luke Marshall. Read my post again. It is association fallacy.

I.e your point was that Kidney should not have picked Earls as he made mistakes. If we take that rationale Kidney should not have picked Luke Marshall.

Keith Earls made a mistake and messed up a 2 on 1
Kidney was wrong to pick Earls who made a mistake
Luke Marshall made a mistake and messed up a 2 on 1
Kidney was wrong to pick Marshall who made a mistake

Individual mistakes are not Kidneys fault. However as I say above he is not managing players correctly nor is his team providing the right tactical coaching.

Nothing to do with him accepting responsibility for knock ons.

[Standulstermen]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Agree with that. He can stand indicted on previous selections but he made progressive selection there. We all called for it and sadly it backfired

Backfire?? Thought the debutants were excellent.

It backfired in that we didn't win the game and we missed 3 from 4 which is all a lot of people will see. Jeez you guys are getting precious

[The Great Aukster]

I dont see point in firing him at this stage. Just let he contract run out in May and look elsewhere.

Ideally appoint a man with no ties to Irish Rugby. Accusations of bias destroy the togetherness of our fans.

Agree with this. Kidney doesn't deserve to be fired because after all he was the man in charge for the GS. It is interesting that he did that with the guts of Eddies team, but crucially added some player depth so that injuries didn't scupper the Championship run. Deccie's problem is that he didn't replace EOS's tactical input into the team, and has consistently failed to do so through the coaches under him - hence the inexorable slide into mediocrity.

The problem is finding a coach who can blend the provincial players into a unit that ignores their natural provincial rivalries, and actually has some form of rugby plan for them to play with.

[Artful_Dodger]

Rodders I am not saying it was a bad decision to play Luke Marshall. Read my post again. It is association fallacy.

I.e your point was that Kidney should not have picked Earls as he made mistakes. If we take that rationale Kidney should not have picked Luke Marshall.

Keith Earls made a mistake and messed up a 2 on 1
Kidney was wrong to pick Earls who made a mistake
Luke Marshall made a mistake and messed up a 2 on 1
Kidney was wrong to pick Marshall who made a mistake

Individual mistakes are not Kidneys fault. However as I say above he is not managing players correctly nor is his team providing the right tactical coaching.

Nothing to do with him accepting responsibility for knock ons.

I don't want to be a pedant but Earls has a hell of a lot more experience and has been on a Lions tour, yet didn't even attempt to execute his 2 on 1. Luke Marshall was on his first cap and at least tried to execute the obvious which Earls failed to do, simply because he has no passing game at all.

[GunsGerms]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Agree with that. He can stand indicted on previous selections but he made progressive selection there. We all called for it and sadly it backfired

Backfire?? Thought the debutants were excellent.

It backfired in that we didn't win the game and we missed 3 from 4 which is all a lot of people will see. Jeez you guys are getting precious

Not sure how thats being precious. Not too concerned by Jackson's missed kicks. I fancy him to turn that around next match. We should always have a second kicker in the team anyway but for some reason never do which is bizarre.

[SecretFly]

Jackson was thrown in at the deep end. Yes, he welcomed it and wanted it and therefore that wasn't an issue - the dumping of him in there at quick notice.

The issue was simply the kicking - and as we all now know in Ireland (even the casual rugby observers who tune in only for the 6N) - 'kicking' is never simple in Ireland.

It was an issue before O'Gara made it into the side, it was only an oh so recent monumental issue between O'Gara and Sexton. Jackson is young...but he ain't that young not to remember the Sexton/O'Gara battles and to be aware of how much emphasis was given to goal kicking in Ireland's overall gameplan with O'Gara in his prime. You prove yourself as an Irish ten in the kicking department and most especially when your team is underperforming for so long. Points are needed when hard yards are gained.

So Paddy was alive to all that in his young mind. Technically he lost us the game (going on points he left there in the game). Realistically he wasn't in any way to blame. This team is operating on ghostly ideas that it is somehow always better than it turns out to be on the scoreboard. And that's why individual players continue to get it in the neck for bringing down the 'what-might-have-beens.

The team - this team - is not better than the scoreboard has been proving over the last number of years. We're as good as those scoreboards. That's all we are as a team...and sliding to a seven or eight point victory over a Scottish side that never looked like they were going to do too much scoring of their own - that would have been only curtain dressing - a veneer, a smokescreen.

We're in bad shape - we've been in bad shape...With Sexton we've been in bad shape. Paddy Jackson has no blame to carry.

[clivemcl]

Jackson was thrown in at the deep end. Yes, he welcomed it and wanted it and therefore that wasn't an issue - the dumping of him in there at quick notice.

The issue was simply the kicking - and as we all now know in Ireland (even the casual rugby observers who tune in only for the 6N) - 'kicking' is never simple in Ireland.

It was an issue before O'Gara made it into the side, it was only an oh so recent monumental issue between O'Gara and Sexton. Jackson is young...but he ain't that young not to remember the Sexton/O'Gara battles and to be aware of how much emphasis was given to goal kicking in Ireland's overall gameplan with O'Gara in his prime. You prove yourself as an Irish ten in the kicking department and most especially when your team is underperforming for so long. Points are needed when hard yards are gained.

So Paddy was alive to all that in his young mind. Technically he lost us the game (going on points he left there in the game). Realistically he wasn't in any way to blame. This team is operating on ghostly ideas that it is somehow always better than it turns out to be on the scoreboard. And that's why individual players continue to get it in the neck for bringing down the 'what-might-have-beens.

The team - this team - is not better than the scoreboard has been proving over the last number of years. We're as good as those scoreboards. That's all we are as a team...and sliding to a seven or eight point victory over a Scottish side that never looked like they were going to do too much scoring of their own - that would have been only curtain dressing - a veneer, a smokescreen.

We're in bad shape - we've been in bad shape...With Sexton we've been in bad shape. Paddy Jackson has no blame to carry.

Agree. Kidney knew Jackson doesnt kick at Ulster , and he would have been gauging his kicking abilities at training camp. Either he genuinly lost it on the day, or he was knowingly poor and kidney hoped it wouldnt matter.

I'm still struggling to figure out why Kearney and BOD were so anonymous.

I still think BOD was not in a good enough position quickly enough to recieve Earl's pass. He was directly behind him initially and too deep. Perahps at the very last second he was available, but anyone knows you've made your decision before you get within five metres of the defender at that pace.

[GunsGerms]

I still think BOD was not in a good enough position quickly enough to recieve Earl's pass. He was directly behind him initially and too deep. Perahps at the very last second he was available, but anyone knows you've made your decision before you get within five metres of the defender at that pace.

There was nothing stopping Earls from slowing up and bringing BOD into play. It was poor from Earls, you would never see the likes of Shane Horgan do that.

Unfortunatly the likes of Earls and Fitz have bags of talent but just dont have the rugby intellegence to make the right choices at times. Disapointed in particular with Earls because he did so much very well just to ruin it with a bad choice.

Its about having composure when your heart is racing when faced with a key moment.

[rodders]

Rodders I am not saying it was a bad decision to play Luke Marshall. Read my post again. It is association fallacy.

I.e your point was that Kidney should not have picked Earls as he made mistakes. If we take that rationale Kidney should not have picked Luke Marshall.

Keith Earls made a mistake and messed up a 2 on 1
Kidney was wrong to pick Earls who made a mistake
Luke Marshall made a mistake and messed up a 2 on 1
Kidney was wrong to pick Marshall who made a mistake

Individual mistakes are not Kidneys fault. However as I say above he is not managing players correctly nor is his team providing the right tactical coaching.

Nothing to do with him accepting responsibility for knock ons.

Well the difference is Marshall is 21 and was our best player and Earls is a seasoned international, had a shocking game and season after season makes the same mistakes. He did the same thing against SA and England last year. He makes breaks and ignores his support runners. It is unforgivable at this level.

[red_stag]

Rodders apart from this incident what did Earls do that resulted in him having a shocking game.

Did O'Driscoll not do badly at times? Did Jackson not miss kicks? Did Rob Kearney not do poorly? Did Best not fluff a lot of lineout throws? Did Heaslip not make mistakes.

Earls made a mistake my point is so did a lot of other players that day.

To me this just looks like focusing in a big way on a single incident when we could do the same with any aspect of the game.

[100%beefy]

? course it did, selection of heaslip as captain and jackson at 10, rog on th bench and selection of all the players who are now injured

[rodders]

Rodders apart from this incident what did Earls do that resulted in him having a shocking game.

Struggled under the high ball and conceded at least one penalty on the deck for holding on.

Players make mistakes and thats fine, what is frustrating about Earls is time and time again he does the same thing. That is why BOD was furious with him.

What I can't understand is how Fitzgerald and Earls have leapfrogged Trimble and McFadden both of whom are in excellent form.

[GunsGerms]

Rodders apart from this incident what did Earls do that resulted in him having a shocking game.

Did O'Driscoll not do badly at times? Did Jackson not miss kicks? Did Rob Kearney not do poorly? Did Best not fluff a lot of lineout throws? Did Heaslip not make mistakes.

Earls made a mistake my point is so did a lot of other players that day.

To me this just looks like focusing in a big way on a single incident when we could do the same with any aspect of the game.

I think Earls mistake was the most disapointing though because he is experienced and should by now be bringing his team mates into play when he makes the blistering runs he makes. It was a key error in the match as it was a certain try.

I can understand the likes of Marshall and Jackson messing up to a certain extent but would expect more from Ealrs. Dont buy the theory that he cant pass. Just think his vision is poor at times.

[SecretFly]

I think it's more than not making the right decisions or a lack of intelligent rugby... I think it's blatantly self-aggrandising rugby.

You'd have Earls in every game for Ireland with a scurrying break-free and run like that... You wouldn't have him for the red-mist that decends on him when in possession and in a position like that.

It's not that he doesn't think, it's that he thinks of personal glory. That's as blunt as the truth gets and that's why he ran tunnel-visioned out of space and out of options. That kind of selfishness has to be killed in players of his calibre. That's where raw and pointed coaching comes into the deal - hard analysis of games and hard and fast rules adopted to kill errors. There is no place for egos bigger than the team - O'Driscoll passed his chance in the Welsh game and got all the credit for the try. Had Earls passed and had a try come from it, he would have got his adulation. His cold eyed selfishness turned his glory moment to soup.

This is not an anti-Earls post. Earls has many positives...and by God, he initally had me excited with that dash - and it's the players Ireland need to perform, the ones who like to take possession and change tempo and team mood with it. But disciplin is needed so that effort is not so easily wasted.

[Standulstermen]

Not on for the earls bashing but he went up against maitland for a bouncing ball once and he didn't look interested. That worried me. It was like a 50/50 tackle in soccer and he chickened out a bit I felt. He just looked like ge didn't want it.

I think I would give him a chance to redeem himself. He is still a potent attacking weapon. I think all notions of him at 13 should be put to bed though. Let him develop on the wing

[rodders]

If you ignore a support runner and go for an outside arc you have to score, its that simple. He went for glory and butchered a try, not for the first time. With Earls its his default option and thats unacceptable at this level.

[Notch]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

I have to agree, selection isn't the issue. We have the same problems regardless of who starts. It's in the details. When we get into a position, we have no idea what we should be doing. Like a few yards out against an organised defence- it's one out passes to static forwards, slow ball, repeat. In all of our games! It's just not going to break defences. Generally once we get into multi-phase play all the pattern and structure goes out of our game. There's almost a sense of panic about us at these points without any genuinely powerful ball carriers from 4-8.

We are overly dependent on a few things at the breakdown like the choke tackle and Best coming into jackal and a team with an aggressive clear-out and/or a sympathetic ref could counter us at which point again- no ability to change things. In terms of the set piece, our backrow and locks don't exactly look like they are putting their backs into it in the way the Scots did yesterday. A little more technique and working as an 8 and we could be doing a lot better here.

Support lines- where are they? Almost a surprise for the team to see Marshall and Earls make those breaks. It was encouraging to see Paddy Jackson bringing the ball to the line and interesting defences and people running off him- a glimpse of the future- but once those linebreaks were made, only one was adequately supported. We were forcing Marshall to slow up in the middle of the park and look for wide-angled supporting runs from the wingers leading to a more difficult long pass. Why isn't our backrow or anyone else on his shoulder? Credit to BOD for getting on Earls' shoulder and head in hands for Earls deciding not to use him.

There are issues we can't solve with selection like the lack of any experienced, in-form goal kicker behind Sexton and a generally physically lightweight pack- a lack of genuinely powerful ball carriers. A Picamoles or even a Beattie would make such a difference to this team. But even then, there are very basic things we are not doing well and crucially, these haven't been improved upon for several years.

[rodders]

No Notch selection is not the main issue but the cohesion of the team and tactics are and part of that is down to selection.

My point was that Keith Earls has history of not passing when he makes breaks....so in his case you can't blame him but the coach who keeps picking him.

Same with Jackson, he isn't going well with the place kicking so you can't scapegoat him when he misses place kicks if the coach picks him knowing there are question marks over his kicking.

Again with ROG, you are getting what you'd expect. Hes afraid of contact and doesn't want to be out there anymore.

These individual errors and shortcomings aren't out of character for many of these players.

[Notch]

At the same time, a good coach will be able to get the best out of limited players by playing to their strengths.

I found it baffling that we didn't have McFadden in the squad now we actually need another reserve placekicker.

[mankiaow]

D'Arcy is completly crocked but has been pretty good in his last few games he has played for Ireland. Would be a decent back up to Marshall for at least another year.

I wouldnt have even brought Rog to the WC. Makes 0 sense to have him in the Ireland squad. Shame, he was once a tremendous talent.

BOD will retire after the Lions if he makes it. His place may be in doubt now that he has had two average games. Though in fairness after witnessing the birth of his child hours prior to the England game Im surprised he was able to focus at all. It is a completly exhausting and overwhelming experience at least it was for me.

I know, mothers just don't appreciate how tough it is for us!

[SecretFly]

I'd like to spend a week looking in on all aspects of training camp Ireland. That'd tell me a hatful of what I need to know. Right now I'm only guessing and I'm guessing right Hefty time devoted to the mincemeat stuff of breakdown, scrum, defensive formations... maybe even some time devoted to attack...but not the bulk... and nothing cohesive about the two.

The reason break-away players don't get support, the reason the kick-chase fails to ignite, the reason we don't try to offload ourselves out of the midfield punch and grind collisions is simply because they are never part of the training routine. I'd be very surprised if all that was part of our training systems, drills etc.... as Notch says, nobody expects the 'unexpected' because it's not required of the regime during the weekdays.

The sense of panic when players use instinct and then quickly start to forward pass and over-kick, or do absolutely bizarre stuff like O'Gara did at the end; the reason all that happens is because it's all off the cuff stuff - it's automatic instinctive juice injected by frustrated players...nobody else is ever ready or wanting to engage with, to run support, or to chase down kicks because it's not expected in the 'gameplan'.
There is nothing solid to talk about. Maybe it's no mystery at all why player performance gets more yardage in the after-game speeches than the real issue of no effective gameplan - even with 80% possession!

[clivemcl]

D'Arcy is completly crocked but has been pretty good in his last few games he has played for Ireland. Would be a decent back up to Marshall for at least another year.

I wouldnt have even brought Rog to the WC. Makes 0 sense to have him in the Ireland squad. Shame, he was once a tremendous talent.

BOD will retire after the Lions if he makes it. His place may be in doubt now that he has had two average games. Though in fairness after witnessing the birth of his child hours prior to the England game Im surprised he was able to focus at all. It is a completly exhausting and overwhelming experience at least it was for me.

I know, mothers just don't appreciate how tough it is for us!

As a father of a four year old who was brought into a theatre full of beeping noises to a sight of four hands inside a belly, whilst my wife was high as a kite ... i couldnt agree more!

[rodders]

I don't think there is even a great team spirit anymore fly, against England and Scotland the players looked to be playing as individuals rather than each other.

As you say the defensive patterns seem strong but the attack is all over the shop. Rushed and predictable and easy to defend against. Everyone was panicking and trying to win the game on their own.

[SecretFly]

I don't think there is even a great team spirit anymore fly, against England and Scotland the players looked to be playing as individuals rather than each other.

As you say the defensive patterns seem strong but the attack is all over the shop. Rushed and predictable and easy to defend against. Everyone was panicking and trying to win the game on their own.

+1...as frustration grows, the heroism grows, the mistakes multiply.

[Gibson]

Some good sensible soul-searching here, midst us Ierse folk. We are as one at last. God how we love wallowing in collective misery. All our songs and poetry are based on it. It seems to be the same way in Sport. I actually believe it makes us content somehow.

As to the players body-language... Could it be they know the end is nigh for Deccie? And have known for some time now? I have seen it in BOD for a while now. 4 International years wasted. The SLAM was a post-Eddie SHAM. We all know that now.

Maybe its just me? I used feel so alone on here (and BBC 606), for years. Now I have sooo many new-found virtual frens...

Im soo virtually happy.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Just for you Gibbo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUuQgt0kh0w

Wingey wingey wingey wingey moan, its the Irish way. Thankfully I have a British passport.

[Notch]

Manus Lappin, whose opinion I respect, is willing to swim against the tide and ask Kidney be given more time.

http://www.emeraldrugby.com/News/Blogs/Manus/A-case-for-Kidney-must-be-made.aspx?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I disagree Manus! But it's still worth reading. Because he asks the difficult question we're all avoiding and ignoring...

Who the feck is gonna want this job?

Because if Conor O'Shea and Joe Schmidt turn around and go "Thanks, but no thanks" we're down to Mike Ruddock and possibly a few hardy souls with insubstantial CVs. You have to look at the career trajectory of previous coaches. Whats Eddie O'Sullivan doing now? And I hardly think people will be beating down Kidneys door with offers. Gatland has gone onto be very successful but is hardly complimentary of the IRFU or glowing in his tribute to his time spent in Ireland.

If I was a young, innovative and talented rugby coach in the mould of O'Shea or Schmidt I would probably see the Ireland gig as a real career-killer.

[Gibson]

De Blessins of Allah on ya Hookie. Im going thro them all now. Pishin meself laffin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gemXAukhYGc

[Gibson]

Manus Lappin, whose opinion I respect, is willing to swim against the tide and ask Kidney be given more time.

http://www.emeraldrugby.com/News/Blogs/Manus/A-case-for-Kidney-must-be-made.aspx?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I disagree Manus! But it's still worth reading. Because he asks the difficult question we're all avoiding and ignoring...

Who the feck is gonna want this job?

Because if Conor O'Shea and Joe Schmidt turn around and go "Thanks, but no thanks" we're down to Mike Ruddock and possibly a few hardy souls with insubstantial CVs. You have to look at the career trajectory of previous coaches. Whats Eddie O'Sullivan doing now? And I hardly think people will be beating down Kidneys door with offers. Gatland has gone onto be very successful but is hardly complimentary of the IRFU or glowing in his tribute to his time spent in Ireland.

If I was a young, innovative and talented rugby coach in the mould of O'Shea or Schmidt I would probably see the Ireland gig as a real career-killer.

I actually believe it is one of the most attractive gigs on the Planet right now. Very little needs to be done to make it successful. In fairness to the IRFU (Yes I said it), the infrastructure is the envy of many. Its all there. Its all in place. The players, the overflowing Academies, the growing provincial power, the protection of players welfare. It just needs to be emancipated on the field.

I'll phookin do it for nowt.

Schmidt wont do it. Hes going home after he wins another HC next year, but Jonno Gibbes has been a constant through all of Leinsters success. With Cheika and Schmidt. He is proven. He is the real deal. I wonder would he fancy it, given the right coaching team around him?

A left-of-field choice, but so was Schmidt.

[SecretFly]

If I was a young, innovative and talented rugby coach in the mould of O'Shea or Schmidt I would probably see the Ireland gig as a real career-killer.

That's what Kidney has given us. He's dropped his own reputation into a cold wet sack, he's dropped some of his fellow coaches into a few more (or they've helped him into his! - whichever way that one works, he was the unfortunate chooser who chose and has to take the knife for it)...and he is rapidly dropping once good and great player reputations into sacks of their own. All of them ready to be fired into the lake by the laughing foreign lot of sneers.

That's what Kidney is giving us, and we continued to stick with him as the CVs of all concerned became less and less impressive.

But if O'Shea (God help us, I'm not his greatest fan) or Schmidt don't have the ability to turn Three Provinces with solid European credentials, and a fourth trier with some nice players, into something with the potential to hold their own with Scotland, Italy, France, Wales and even England then they are not worth much as coaches with potential of their own. Bluntly speaking.

Now, whether they'd want the job or not is one thing, but if they'd turn it down because they see no potential, then that would be showing their limitations not Ireland's.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Vern Cotter for me is the ideal candidate. Let him appoint who he wants to the national setup. That might include someone like Wayne Smith, an excellent coach himself, maybe Mike Ruddock as backs coach, Gibbs maybe in there. Its a blank canvas. O'Shea is a manager not a coach and if given a free reign to appoint the coaches he wanted he could be a success and in truth he is the only Irish candidate that may be up to the task.

I also think as an outside bet Robbie Deans would be an excellent appointment. I think things have got stale with Australia, he was overlooked by the All Blacks and he has nothing to prove at Super 15 level. He brings in young talent and has a long term vision. The Ozzy press seem to be down on him at present, but what he has achieved with the single worst Australian pack (bar Hooper and Pocock) in my lifetime really is testament to his talents

[Gibson]

Im liking this conversation.

I read that article Notch. Lots of truth in it. But. Sometimes, just sometimes, players lose faith in the coach and it shows in their play. Too many players panicing at key moments. So many missed chances, for too many years now. Is that the fault of every individual player who took the field for us over the last 3/4 years?

I think not. Its a continuing ball of confusion, emanating from the top. If Ireland were a business and we are now in deep rugby recession, Deccie would have gone/been shot by now.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Gibbo if the Scotland match was isolated we could shrug our shoulders and say 'it's not Kidney's fault that player X dropped the ball, or player Y can't finish a simple two on one'. But we have had four years of it. The answer is either the players are each to a man not good enough, or the coaching ticket isn't up to it. Maybe its the former and not the later. Only a new head coach will prove it either way. We bemoaned Eddie for his selections but his teams, bar the final Six Nations where everyone knew he was finished, never played as badly as we have in the past 18 months. Steady Eddie looks like halycon days right now

[Notch]

I would love Robbie Deans. I would give him three years before I turned on him all snarling and jackal like. You couldn't ask for more!

Seriously though, would be a smart choice. I don't see sticking with Kidney as an option. If he had an idea how to make us more consistent he would have implemented it by now. He radiates a certain kind of desperation. Has the answers? I'm not convinced he even knows the questions.

Agree with you in full Gibson. This current Scotland team are probably the poorest test side he's lost to so far (coming out with 20/30% possession after dominating the two set pieces is abysmal stuff) but it's not the first time his substitutions have had a negative impact on the game, or an oversight in selection has cost us. It's not the first time we've collapsed in the second half or looked panicky and without a plan when we get into the opposition 22. These are all recurring motifs, for quite a long time now.

[SecretFly]

Yep...there is no risk now in trying something that might even get worse....you only risk when you're winning. Losing is no reference for continued employment and the only few guys losing continuously are the coaches. The players are changing, they're getting younger - the old wrecks are being put into horsemeat burgers bit by bit...the only thing constant is the absent plan of action, the eternal inconsistency and the constant presence of ailing coaches.

If a guy's heart is starting to weaken you don't go off and do a transplant operation on his friend, hoping the guy with the weak heart will make a full recovery.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Notch, if rugby matches were as long as football ones we would also have lost to Wales after being 30 points up. That was bad enough. But Scotland are a really, really poor side. It is shameful to lose to them, but under the statistics of Sunday it is even worse.

[Gibson]

Notch (you will have to change that name soon btw), I think it was Hookisms who said it earlier, we have lost far too many 2nd-halves of big games. We have been sussed-out tactically, too many times, far too easily, mid game. That speaks volumes.

I really dont want to castigate this man any longer. Its not my MO. So IRFU, please make the big call.

He is a gracious, loyal, intelligent, sincere, gentleman - out of his depth in modern rugby. I hope he makes that call himself.

[SecretFly]

He's a lovely man by all appearances. Nothing personal against him at all...only wish he had the joy of having a better, more fruitful tenure. That would have been good for him, for players and for us. But the sad truth is that it hasn't worked out that way.

The longer the union continues, the longer the coaches and players will continue to damage each other's reputations. It's reached a natural ending...nature is acting on it. You might even suggest that nothing new in ideas would now work as the relationship has dried up. The players need a few new heads (a few of them - not just Kidney) and Kidney and his coaches need something new to to re-energise their enthusiasm. Sometimes a relationship between coaches and teams just comes to a natural ending. This one is kind of gone on possibly longer than it should have but the truth is out there, and it's clear.

[Sin é]

I think it's more than not making the right decisions or a lack of intelligent rugby... I think it's blatantly self-aggrandising rugby.

You'd have Earls in every game for Ireland with a scurrying break-free and run like that... You wouldn't have him for the red-mist that decends on him when in possession and in a position like that.

It's not that he doesn't think, it's that he thinks of personal glory. That's as blunt as the truth gets and that's why he ran tunnel-visioned out of space and out of options. That kind of selfishness has to be killed in players of his calibre. That's where raw and pointed coaching comes into the deal - hard analysis of games and hard and fast rules adopted to kill errors. There is no place for egos bigger than the team - O'Driscoll passed his chance in the Welsh game and got all the credit for the try. Had Earls passed and had a try come from it, he would have got his adulation. His cold eyed selfishness turned his glory moment to soup.

This is not an anti-Earls post. Earls has many positives...and by God, he initally had me excited with that dash - and it's the players Ireland need to perform, the ones who like to take possession and change tempo and team mood with it. But disciplin is needed so that effort is not so easily wasted.

Thats a load of Poopie anyway. You need to listen to this before proclaiming Earls to be a total egoist since you seem to have forgotten when he was playing centre for the 6Ns last year even Trimble got a try.

Keith Earls - I'm just starting to believe in myself now

http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.305.363/3052/blog_list/---Keith-Earls---I'm-just-starting-to-believe-in-myself-now

[Sin é]

Vern Cotter for me is the ideal candidate. Let him appoint who he wants to the national setup. That might include someone like Wayne Smith, an excellent coach himself, maybe Mike Ruddock as backs coach, Gibbs maybe in there. Its a blank canvas. O'Shea is a manager not a coach and if given a free reign to appoint the coaches he wanted he could be a success and in truth he is the only Irish candidate that may be up to the task.

I also think as an outside bet Robbie Deans would be an excellent appointment. I think things have got stale with Australia, he was overlooked by the All Blacks and he has nothing to prove at Super 15 level. He brings in young talent and has a long term vision. The Ozzy press seem to be down on him at present, but what he has achieved with the single worst Australian pack (bar Hooper and Pocock) in my lifetime really is testament to his talents

Why in the name of god would anyone like Wayne Smith want to coach Ireland (he already turned down England because he wants to remain in New Zealand to be close to his aging parents.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Rodders was it a bad job for Kidney to pick Luke Marshall.

He ruined a 2 on 1 with Gilroy (threw forward pass) and knocked on the final ball that cost us the game.

Now I thought Marshall had a superb game but just making the point; while I do feel Kidney has had his day I dont think selection cost us the game.

Seriously? That sorry excuse for a pass was Marshall's fault?

Also there is a clear difference from Marshall and Earls, to use an example of butchering opportunities. Marshall threw a horrible pass, but if you notice something about Marshall, every time he makes a break he looks to his other options outside of him. Earls clearly thought he could just run the pitch and score a wonder try. That was just pathetic, school boys would be heavily scrutinised for that.

[SecretFly]

I think it's more than not making the right decisions or a lack of intelligent rugby... I think it's blatantly self-aggrandising rugby.

You'd have Earls in every game for Ireland with a scurrying break-free and run like that... You wouldn't have him for the red-mist that decends on him when in possession and in a position like that.

It's not that he doesn't think, it's that he thinks of personal glory. That's as blunt as the truth gets and that's why he ran tunnel-visioned out of space and out of options. That kind of selfishness has to be killed in players of his calibre. That's where raw and pointed coaching comes into the deal - hard analysis of games and hard and fast rules adopted to kill errors. There is no place for egos bigger than the team - O'Driscoll passed his chance in the Welsh game and got all the credit for the try. Had Earls passed and had a try come from it, he would have got his adulation. His cold eyed selfishness turned his glory moment to soup.

This is not an anti-Earls post. Earls has many positives...and by God, he initally had me excited with that dash - and it's the players Ireland need to perform, the ones who like to take possession and change tempo and team mood with it. But disciplin is needed so that effort is not so easily wasted.

Thats a load of Poopie anyway. You need to listen to this before proclaiming Earls to be a total egoist since you seem to have forgotten when he was playing centre for the 6Ns last year even Trimble got a try.

My statement stands.

[Gibson]

Vern Cotter for me is the ideal candidate. Let him appoint who he wants to the national setup. That might include someone like Wayne Smith, an excellent coach himself, maybe Mike Ruddock as backs coach, Gibbs maybe in there. Its a blank canvas. O'Shea is a manager not a coach and if given a free reign to appoint the coaches he wanted he could be a success and in truth he is the only Irish candidate that may be up to the task.

I also think as an outside bet Robbie Deans would be an excellent appointment. I think things have got stale with Australia, he was overlooked by the All Blacks and he has nothing to prove at Super 15 level. He brings in young talent and has a long term vision. The Ozzy press seem to be down on him at present, but what he has achieved with the single worst Australian pack (bar Hooper and Pocock) in my lifetime really is testament to his talents

Vern Cotter. Yes. We need a strong individual to instruct the IRFU and the players as to the way forward. O Shea would just cause more internal Irish schitt. He has no respect for the IRFU, imo. But I agree with Notch. Robbie Deans would be perfect for this group of players and those coming through.

Just a question. Do people think we need change at the top of the IRFU Board itself? I do.

David Humphreys? Mick Dawson? Both massively successful. Both singularly driven to succeed.

[Standulstermen]

Deans is a good shout

Humph in some capacity would help increase the professionalism at the top of the organisation but will turkeys ever vote for Christmas ?

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