Can Ireland beat Italy?

First topic message reminder :

Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

red_stag wrote:Have Jackson and Sexton been played at 12 much?

Personally I'm not a big fan of trying to accommodate our best players all under one team. I think that playing two specialist centres would be a better bet.

A little bit, but hardly a huge amount. I agree with you. It's only really being discussed because our other options are receding so rapidly!

red_stag wrote:Have Jackson and Sexton been played at 12 much?

Personally I'm not a big fan of trying to accommodate our best players all under one team. I think that playing two specialist centres would be a better bet.

As I mentioned Jackson has slotted in at 12 a few times this year and if Cave was 13 there would be the advantage of knowing each others game

Final game and ...well, THE LIONS.... now next thing on the radar.

Most people who know me know my opinion of the Lions (grand for those who like it, a soul stealer for Internationals who should be concentrating on Nation)

So...was it Kearney or someone who gave a hint that they now know Lion's tickets are the only thing left up for grabs...and inviting grabs they are.

If that's the motivation and if that gets us into some kind of driving seat against Italy, and if the players do another 'big' performance - and if O'Driscoll is out injured, in possibly his last 6N season

................. then I'm going to be happy that we restored much needed pride (and chasing Scotland's third place should be the goal...tries...points...not just winning.)

But I'm also going to be a tad angry, because if - as many seem to think - the players are often letting down the execution of the gameplan, then a lot of players have been criminally underperforming through this campaign as minds shift between Nation and Lions health and welfare issues. Meanwhile, an old player with creaking bones and possibly the only guaranteed ticket on the plane due to iconic status, a player who didn't have to do too much to keep in Gatland's mind, was playing himself to standstill in this campaign...for Ireland, not the Lions.

So if Ireland do a hatchet job on Italy, a team that has given most other sides plenty to think about, then I'll be a halfway house. Both happy and angry, and angry that O'Driscoll sits out a winning game in his possible last season.

geoff998rugby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Have Jackson and Sexton been played at 12 much?

Personally I'm not a big fan of trying to accommodate our best players all under one team. I think that playing two specialist centres would be a better bet.

As I mentioned Jackson has slotted in at 12 a few times this year and if Cave was 13 there would be the advantage of knowing each others game

Unless Jackson playing 12 is a regular thing I think that the idea of him and Cave knowing each others game is a theory that would not work in practice.

Cave is used to seeing Jackson as the first receiver with Wallace/Marshall between them. They may know each other to some extent.

Would you not say that Downey and Earls would also know each others game. Earls has a lot of international experience at 13 and Downey and him are a provincial pairing. Downey also gives us bulk in midfield.

By contrast playing Jackson and Cave would involve giving a chance to a guy with a handful of caps and pairing him with another player with barely any caps and having one of them playing in an unfamiliar position.

Nah I dont buy it. Start Jackson and bring on Jonny Sexton.

Geoff I'd love to remember the years of going to Croke Park on a regular basis but at the minute Ulster has Donegal and Tyrone a fairly distant 2nd in my eyes. Which in fairness is the same as the 2 teams challenging in Munster (Cork and Kerry) 2 in leinster (Dublin and Kildare) and 2 in Connacht (Mayo and Galway)

And for the "shoite" comment I was mostly getting at how poor Armagh have been the last few years.

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Have Jackson and Sexton been played at 12 much?

Personally I'm not a big fan of trying to accommodate our best players all under one team. I think that playing two specialist centres would be a better bet.

As I mentioned Jackson has slotted in at 12 a few times this year and if Cave was 13 there would be the advantage of knowing each others game

Unless Jackson playing 12 is a regular thing I think that the idea of him and Cave knowing each others game is a theory that would not work in practice.

Cave is used to seeing Jackson as the first receiver with Wallace/Marshall between them. They may know each other to some extent.

Would you not say that Downey and Earls would also know each others game. Earls has a lot of international experience at 13 and Downey and him are a provincial pairing. Downey also gives us bulk in midfield.

By contrast playing Jackson and Cave would involve giving a chance to a guy with a handful of caps and pairing him with another player with barely any caps and having one of them playing in an unfamiliar position.

Nah I dont buy it. Start Jackson and bring on Jonny Sexton.

Jackson may only have played 12 a little bit this season, but in previous years he has played plenty of 12. Pretty sure he played a good bit at 12 for u20s even. He's definitely solid enough for it, surprisingly good in defence.

Cave outside him could further boost our familiarity advantage if Gilroy and maybe Trimble get wing spots.

I'm not saying its an excellent backline, but it might be the best considering. It certainly would not be 'laughable' as DOD suggests.

Also might I add, The tournament is over, its Italy we are playing, and we can avoid shoving the youngster back into the shadows by playing him outside Sexton. It would be good for Jackson and good for Ireland to continue to show faith in him ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

I think in his 3rd int game Clive he should continue to play 10. If anyones moved to 12 it should be Sexton. More experienced and shows faith in keeping PJ at 10 even if we know who 1st choice is.

To be honest Clive it just looks like a way of accommodating Jackson in the starting team with Sextons return. In my opinion it is in no way the best backline available.

I also think its completely needless to draft in Trimble on the wing for familiarity.

Cant say I agree or that I think its a good option to have Jackson (or Sexton) in at 12.

Cave is a tidy little player and I wouldnt mind seeing him and Earls get another go together if we don't have Downey or McSharry. We saw that combo in New Zealand maybe we could see it again in Rome.

It would be not the best option, but if Marshall and BOD don't make it there are not a lot of good options. I think this familiarity thing is a red herring. Jackosn only moves to 12 in games for Ulster later on, its not like its a tried and tested partnership.

Whilst Jackson is capable enough of playing that role it isn't like Jackson and Cave is a seasoned centre partnership. Even Marshall and Cave has some way to go to develop that chemistry. Jackson and Marshall have chemistry together because they've played together right the way through schools and age group rugby, to professional rugby in Ulster to the international test side. Paddy Wallace and Darren Cave would have a similar chemistry having played together so much for Ulster.

But it's not like they just play the odd game and then they are suddenly on the same wavelength. Agree about showing faith in Jackson, but as a 10. Shifting him into a different role isn't doing that. Either start him or don't.

Exactly Notch agree in full.

I am actually very happy at the thought of Paul Marshall and Jonny Sexton coming into the game. Has the ability to give us a new lease of life - a far cry from Eoin Reddan and Ronan O'Gara.

red_stag wrote:I am actually very happy at the thought of Paul Marshall and Jonny Sexton coming into the game. Has the ability to give us a new lease of life - a far cry from Eoin Reddan and Ronan O'Gara.

Seconded.

But lets face it Jackson and Marshall may get to wear ROG and Reddans hallowed 22 and 21 jerseys but they won't automatically inherit their respective contractually obliged 67 and 72 min off the bench cameo roles.

I actually think the coaching team have greatly improved with a lot of the issues in last years 6 Nations but we still have a very poor use of the bench which has been a key reason for our lack of an 80 minute game.

Team is announced on thursday yeah?

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I am actually very happy at the thought of Paul Marshall and Jonny Sexton coming into the game. Has the ability to give us a new lease of life - a far cry from Eoin Reddan and Ronan O'Gara.

Seconded.

But lets face it Jackson and Marshall may get to wear ROG and Reddans hallowed 22 and 21 jerseys but they won't automatically inherit their respective contractually obliged 67 and 72 min off the bench cameo roles.

Nor can Henderson expect Leo Cullen's 79th minute cameos.

GunsGerms wrote:Team is announced on thursday yeah?

I assume so. Otherwise I'd imagine that we'll see An O'Ther covering a few positions.

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Team is announced on thursday yeah?

I assume so. Otherwise I'd imagine that we'll see An O'Ther covering a few positions.

Bizarre thing there too. They said on Tuesday last week when they announced a team with no 10s that they were doing it despite the injury concerns because they needed to get all the media duties out of the way early in the week. This week, not such a big issue postponing it.

red_stag wrote:I actually think the coaching team have greatly improved with a lot of the issues in last years 6 Nations but we still have a very poor use of the bench which has been a key reason for our lack of an 80 minute game.

Its not the only reason for our inability to perform for 80 minutes but its not stretching it to say that it arguably cost us the scotland game, maybe the French one too.

I don't think our conditioning is good enough, especially Mike Ross and our scrum has deteriorated badly late in each game and our over reliance on defence and poor kicking game leaves us knackered late on too. Mentally too many players have crumbled under pressure aswell.

However the hairbrained substitutions have certainly exasperated things, especially when all the losses have been one score games heading into the final quarter.

Rodders I made the point on the pub thread that it was a massive strenght of ours in our Grand Slam year.

Stringer was a brilliant sub and the contast with Tomas O'Leary made us very dangerous. Remember the impact that our super subs Stringer and Heaslip had against Scotland in 2009.

Rory Best was another guy who was great to bring on for Flannery and Denis Leamy in the backrow.

We have the players I think to be able to do that but the timing and manner of subs is appalling.

red_stag wrote:Rodders I made the point on the pub thread that it was a massive strenght of ours in our Grand Slam year.

Stringer was a brilliant sub and the contast with Tomas O'Leary made us very dangerous. Remember the impact that our super subs Stringer and Heaslip had against Scotland in 2009.

Rory Best was another guy who was great to bring on for Flannery and Denis Leamy in the backrow.

We have the players I think to be able to do that but the timing and manner of subs is appalling.

I mean stag I think use of the bench is a good thing but the players that are brought on have to be the right ones at the right time...bring a particular impact, especially if the result is in the balance.

Like why bring on Reddan for Murray when we were one score up? DOC for McCarthy and destablise the set piece at a crucial time for no reason?

These decisions cost games, you can't just throw players on for the sake of it in a close game.

I know madness isn't it. Decisions are obviously made that such a player gets 15 minutes and such a player gets 30 minutes and so on.

That wont work in test rugby.

I actually agreed with the Murray replacement. He had a good game (and I can be quite critical of him but he had a good one) but he was beginning to be less effective as France were pushing us back on our hocks.

He admitted himself that batteries were wilting. Just because he's good for the minutes he is good doesn't mean he's going to remain at that standard through the tough 'enduring' stage of a typical Irish game when the opposition come at us.

Redden wasn't the call that drew the draw upon us, as it were. Not for me anyway.

And just in case we get muddled into thinking it's another call by me just to go against the grain...O'Driscoll shouldn't have come back on either and the ref shouldn't have been his polite self to a 'legend' in calling it a blood injury. It was what it was - concussion.

What about the Children!!!!!!!!!

Back on Thurs/Fri for another mud slinging fest of fun and frolics

red_stag wrote:I know madness isn't it. Decisions are obviously made that such a player gets 15 minutes and such a player gets 30 minutes and so on.

That wont work in test rugby.

No maybe not all the time but every world cup Ireland more than any team struggles because we tend to use our squad and subs less than everyone else. We do actually need to think of International rugby as a 22 to 30 man game rather than a 15 man game. Otherwise we will continue to run out of steam and limp out of every tournament we enter.

SecretFly wrote:I actually agreed with the Murray replacement. He had a good game (and I can be quite critical of him but he had a good one) but he was beginning to be less effective as France were pushing us back on our hocks.

He admitted himself that batteries were wilting. Just because he's good for the minutes he is good doesn't mean he's going to remain at that standard through the tough 'enduring' stage of a typical Irish game when the opposition come at us.

Redden wasn't the call that drew the draw upon us, as it were. Not for me anyway.

And just in case we get muddled into thinking it's another call by me just to go against the grain...O'Driscoll shouldn't have come back on either and the ref shouldn't have been his polite self to a 'legend' in calling it a blood injury. It was what it was - concussion.

Agree with you about Murray. He was wilting (and the management probably knew it because can now monitor players more closely) and he put in a big shift on Saturday. Since up to recently, quite a few thought that Reddan should be starting, so its easy to say in hindsight that Murray shouldn't have been taken off. Reddan wasn't the problem anyway. It was all the injuries after his substitution that was the real problem (Marshall, BOD, McFadden & Reddan it would seem).

A lot of people were critical of Kidney for playing Mike Ross in the Fiji game - now they might be able to understand why he did. Ireland don't have the same back-up in props internationally the provincial sides do and that is why Ross will have to do the full 80 until Archer is good enough because it looks like Dec Fitzpatrick is always injured.

SecretFly wrote:I actually agreed with the Murray replacement. He had a good game (and I can be quite critical of him but he had a good one) but he was beginning to be less effective as France were pushing us back on our hocks.

He admitted himself that batteries were wilting.

Thats is what he said - do you believe it - I dont

The alternatvie was to say Kidney was wrong in taking me off

geoff998rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I actually agreed with the Murray replacement. He had a good game (and I can be quite critical of him but he had a good one) but he was beginning to be less effective as France were pushing us back on our hocks.

He admitted himself that batteries were wilting.

Thats is what he said - do you believe it - I dont

The alternatvie was to say Kidney was wrong in taking me off

The alternative interpretation would be that he was implying that Eoin Reddan isn't as good as he is - bad for squad development and particularly for him personally as the Reddan & Murray families live about a mile away from each other.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I actually agreed with the Murray replacement. He had a good game (and I can be quite critical of him but he had a good one) but he was beginning to be less effective as France were pushing us back on our hocks.

He admitted himself that batteries were wilting.

Thats is what he said - do you believe it - I dont

The alternatvie was to say Kidney was wrong in taking me off

The alternative interpretation would be that he was implying that Eoin Reddan isn't as good as he is - bad for squad development and particularly for him personally as the Reddan & Murray families live about a mile away from each other.

can we just agree that anything said by anyone to the media is not worth even listening to??

clivemcl wrote:
can we just agree that anything said by anyone to the media is not worth even listening to??

ROG is usually worth listening to

You DO have a sense of humour

To go back on my usual point when my opinion is questioned. I didn't really 'read' my opinion of the Murray replacement, or 'listen' to it from the lips of a player giving a media interview (funny though how some of you believe some of the comments coming from players, and we have long conversations about some of those beliefs; but then choose not to believe others.)

Anyway, I take all public pronouncements with a pinch of salt and only gave Murray's 'opinion' to back up the point...and the point is I made up my own mind and saw his wilting with my own eyes. I generally 'see' my own opinion materialising as I watch a game unfold, I don't wait for a pundit or player to tell me what it should be.

So there I was towards the end, saying to myself "take Murray off, he's falling off the pace.... take him off and get Redden on to put a little bite back into a receding side (Ireland)."

And low and behold, for once in my life, Declan Kidney seemed to agree with me! Soon after I started fretting, Murray came off. Like I said, he played a good one but was feeling the game towards the end. Keep a player like that on for-the-sake-of-it and you risk imploding completely. We've accused Ireland of doing the same in the past with their sub policies.

So in truth, I don't really care what Murray said; I always stand by my views based on my own observations.

I was listening to O'Driscoll being interviewed on 'off the ball' when I was cooking the dinner (didn't wash the vegetables) and he seemed very confident indeed of passing whatever test they do to prove their brain is OK. I think he'll be starting.

Feckless - Hibbard failed that test and he didn't even have a bang to the head

RubyGuby wrote:Feckless - Hibbard failed that test and he didn't even have a bang to the head

To be honest once we have either Marshall or O'Driscoll fit we should be ok.

Think that BOD, and Marshall, should miss this one due to the head injuries.
This may be BOD's last game for Ireland, but even so it's not worth the risk.

The independent says both should be back but Ryan is looking pretty bleak

Notch wrote:I'm kind of beginning to get swayed to hoping Ireland get shown up. I used to love this team. But you try and talk about it, it's never your team. Its YOUR players in OUR team.


Notch if you are basing this on the likes of Sin E and DOD then seriously catch yourself on.

You KNOW that these people are on the wind up.

It is feckall to do with Northern/Southern Ireland. Provincial bickering has always been there - Munster v Leinster was the big thing. Now that Ulster are at the top table there is a belief going around 606 that it is this sociopoliticalsectarian plot afoot.

Its usual provincial bickering thats all..

[b]

Nosiness got the better of me after the last couple of days and I had an auld gander at the bedwetting society thread...and just had to share the feelings and angst of some members. Its much better to get it out in the open and let us all help in overcoming our short comings...bless me father...what's that red stag two our fathers and a decade of the rosary...I hope for all our sakes you haven't graduated from under 12 c grade refereeing

DOD don't be ridiculous. I've long left 12C refereeing behind me. This weekend the Ballyspudmunchers Junior B2 Division 3 Wooden Spoon Champions have asked me to referee their inaugural 7 a side tournament.

I'll be Steve Walsh in no time. Sadly I had to turn it down as Rome beckons this weekend. I felt that two our fathers and a decade of the rosary wouldn't quite cut it so felt that in Fr Ted style I need to kick the Pope up the arse.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The independent says both should be back but Ryan is looking pretty bleak

You'd wonder how fit he was going into the France game.

This is my prediction:

Healy-Best-Ross
DOC-McCarthy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Archer-Toner-Henderson-Marshall-Jackson-Fitzgerald

Wouldn't be against seeing that team either.

I think you are right but to be honest Henderson apart that is a very weak forward bench.

DOD wrote:
Notch wrote:I'm kind of beginning to get swayed to hoping Ireland get shown up. I used to love this team. But you try and talk about it, it's never your team. Its YOUR players in OUR team.

Notch if you are basing this on the likes of Sin E and DOD then seriously catch yourself on.

stag: You KNOW that these people are on the wind up.

Interesting that Stag knows 'these people' are on the wind up considering he has me on ignore

Typical blind ref. At least Steve Walsh makes an effort to see what happened (even if he has his mind made up already).

Luke Marshall and BOD start

Paul Marshall on the bench

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Archer-Toner-Henderson-Marshall-Jackson-Fitzgerald

geoff998rugby wrote:I think you are right but to be honest Henderson apart that is a very weak forward bench.

I wouldn't fully agree. It depends on the circumstances. Kilcoyne, Cronin and Henderson are good ball carriers. Archer is better in the loose than Ross. The set pieces could become an issue with Archer and Cronin.

Hopefully its dry weather in Rome for the match.

The first requirment of front rowers is get the set piece right

Cronin and Archer fail that test and Kilcoyne is an,albeit promising, trainee at this level

profitius wrote:Hopefully its dry weather in Rome for the match.

Its been chucking it down with rain all week in Rome. Weekend is meant to be dry.

IRFU confirm that Sexton went over on his foot in training today. He is not expected to be in any danger of missing the match but Madigan will travel nontheless.