Can Ireland beat Italy?

First topic message reminder :

Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

For all the talk of Kilcoyne he has shown precious little of his ball carrying at international level, it must be taken in to account that he has not had that much game time but he needs to step up, if I was Kidney Court would be starting

Jackson should start, yes we want to win and Sexton may increase the likelyhood of it happening but the more experience Jackson gains the better it will be down the line and means going into the November game against the ABs will probably have meant he had 5 consecutive starts and be a stronger, more experienced back up to Sexton

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Archer-Toner-Henderson-Marshall-Jackson-Fitzgerald

No lineout, no bench, average scrum, one decent ball carrier, busted centres, out of sorts back 3.....

Italy by 12.

Enjoy your retirement Brian

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Archer-Toner-Henderson-Marshall-Jackson-Fitzgerald

No lineout, no bench, average scrum, one decent ball carrier, busted centres, out of sorts back 3.....

Italy by 12.

Enjoy your retirement Brian

and no DOC.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Archer-Toner-Henderson-Marshall-Jackson-Fitzgerald

No lineout, no bench, average scrum, one decent ball carrier, busted centres, out of sorts back 3.....

Italy by 12.

Enjoy your retirement Brian

and no DOC.

Holey schmoley didn't notice Donnacha Ryan there...thats the lineout back at least.....Italy by 7.....

Whoops! Meant to be DOC on the bench.

yeah I can see Italy winning this one lads if they can emulate last week's performance

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:For all the talk of Kilcoyne he has shown precious little of his ball carrying at international level, it must be taken in to account that he has not had that much game time but he needs to step up, if I was Kidney Court would be starting

In fairness, its not easy to make an impression when sitting on the bench!

I don't see Italy winning it. England were not trying too hard last week. Ireland will be trying because they'll show Italy more respect.

profitius wrote:I don't see Italy winning it. England were not trying too hard last week. Ireland will be trying because they'll show Italy more respect.

I don't think effort or respect come into it. I think we just aren't a particularly good side and are there for the taking. This side is bereft of attacking ability and power and if Italy can edge the set piece I don't really see us causing them much problems, bar through a bit of individual magic from Gilroy or BOD.

Wait there is no DOC.

Is that him done then?

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:I don't see Italy winning it. England were not trying too hard last week. Ireland will be trying because they'll show Italy more respect.

I don't think effort or respect come into it. I think we just aren't a particularly good side and are there for the taking. This side is bereft of attacking ability and power and if Italy can edge the set piece I don't really see us causing them much problems, bar through a bit of individual magic from Gilroy or BOD.

I agree with this. Unless their 10 has a tactical nightmare (which is very possible) I don't see a part of the game other than perhaps the breakdown where we are better than they are. Italy will fan out in defence and let us have the ball, this is bad news as it will encourage us to move laterally and we won't make the most of the fast ball because it is simply not part of our game plan

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Wait there is no DOC.

Is that him done then?

I'd say its more down to Ryan being an injury worry and Toner being needed for his prowess in the lineout (Ryan & POM have been taking most of the lineout to date).

Sexton out.....

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Wait there is no DOC.

Is that him done then?

I'd say its more down to Ryan being an injury worry and Toner being needed for his prowess in the lineout (Ryan & POM have been taking most of the lineout to date).

Isn't Donners contracted until the end of 2014?

I think he looks in decent nick actually and can definitely do another season at least for Munster and Ireland, maybe even make the RWC, if only as a squad man. He hasn't had the volume of injuries that POC and Cullen have had.

Madigan onto the bench. Sexton has damaged his ligaments.

Poor Johnny. Hope that doesn't overly affect his Lions chances.

Apparently out for a month. That could ruin his lions chances

Blimey I'm impressed that Italy put together 2 excellent performances this 6N. My gob would be smacked and my flabber well and truely gasted if they managed 3.

Ireland by >7. Altho' they will need to work for it.

Don't underestimate Italy. They have weaknesses for sure but they remain a very dangerous beast.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Apparently out for a month. That could ruin his lions chances

Nah sure there aren't many decent 10's around. At this rate Jackson could make the plane if he gets a good showing in. Sexton and Farrell are nailed on.

Notch wrote:Don't underestimate Italy. They have weaknesses for sure but they remain a very dangerous beast.

Totally agree Notch. We could well get embarrassed here. I've been championing Italy this year, and I'm always chuffed to see them play well. They play some fantastic rugby at times. And if we fail to take our chances, it could be a major banana skin here.

If Sexton is in on piece he will be in the Lions

Is that your wish or are you second guessing Gatland? I can see Gatland going for Madigan.

I just think Sexton, and Farrell, are already pencilled in - bar injuries.

Third 10 spot up for grabs.

Glas a du wrote:Is that your wish or are you second guessing Gatland? I can see Gatland going for Madigan.

Even though he's likely to have about 20 mins total test rugby behind him at that stage?

Can Ireland beat Italy? Yes and so they should. With all that has gone before, the injuries the 'blooding' and the collapsing. I would expect Ireland to enter this game with a certain determination about them. Regardless of how Italy have played previously, Ireland will be focused on their own game.

This has not been the worst championship for Ireland, given the circumstances. Kidney just might get out of jail with this one. I could be wrong(hedging) but I suspect he is going to be retained for the RWC. My impressions of the IRFU are that they are not slaves to public opinion. They will plough their own furrow regardless of who thinks they are barking up the wrong tree(or just barking) and their ambitions are probably slightly more realistic than those of the average rugby follower in Ireland.

Frustrated as I am with performances over Kidney's reign, as has been mentioned by some non-Irish posters here, he is not the worst coach around nor is he close to the best. I know the 'T' word sends a few into a rage but realistically(that word again) that is exactly where we are and we will come out of this a better team(and coach).

T = Transition

I just want no more injuries...

Can anyone provide me a stream for this game tomorrow? I just found out I have to work.

mankiaow wrote:Can Ireland beat Italy? Yes and so they should. With all that has gone before, the injuries the 'blooding' and the collapsing. I would expect Ireland to enter this game with a certain determination about them. Regardless of how Italy have played previously, Ireland will be focused on their own game.

This has not been the worst championship for Ireland, given the circumstances. Kidney just might get out of jail with this one. I could be wrong(hedging) but I suspect he is going to be retained for the RWC. My impressions of the IRFU are that they are not slaves to public opinion. They will plough their own furrow regardless of who thinks they are barking up the wrong tree(or just barking) and their ambitions are probably slightly more realistic than those of the average rugby follower in Ireland.

Frustrated as I am with performances over Kidney's reign, as has been mentioned by some non-Irish posters here, he is not the worst coach around nor is he close to the best. I know the 'T' word sends a few into a rage but realistically(that word again) that is exactly where we are and we will come out of this a better team(and coach).

T = Transition

Can't agree with that Mankiaow. You're saying Ireland have to suffer a few ignominious results to motivate them to go into a game with determination - really? If that were the case it would indicate a coach bereft of ideas and selecting players intent on passing themselves at Test level rather than actually winning anything... hang on...

If indeed the IRFU are happy with the mediocrity being served up then they could very well keep Kidney as he is the architect in chief of that ethos, however I'd hazard a guess that the "public" aren't happy with a team that is content to be regularly rolled over by England, Wales and Scotland. If the IRFU don't care about their market - they could find it increasingly hard to sell the tv rights to a half empty Aviva.

Naturally non-Irish posters don't rate Irish players compared to their own, so therefore they think that a coach who presides over such a bunch of substandard players must be uber-talented to deliver any results at all. Needless to say I actually rate a few Irish players to be better than that and the overwhelming substandard performance is that of the coach who manages to drag them down to his level.

Mickado wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Is that your wish or are you second guessing Gatland? I can see Gatland going for Madigan.

Even though he's likely to have about 20 mins total test rugby behind him at that stage?

Glas thinks Fionn Carr is a good player too so Madigan would be best holding fire on packing his suit case just yet ......

The Great Aukster wrote:

mankiaow wrote:Can Ireland beat Italy? Yes and so they should. With all that has gone before, the injuries the 'blooding' and the collapsing. I would expect Ireland to enter this game with a certain determination about them. Regardless of how Italy have played previously, Ireland will be focused on their own game.

This has not been the worst championship for Ireland, given the circumstances. Kidney just might get out of jail with this one. I could be wrong(hedging) but I suspect he is going to be retained for the RWC. My impressions of the IRFU are that they are not slaves to public opinion. They will plough their own furrow regardless of who thinks they are barking up the wrong tree(or just barking) and their ambitions are probably slightly more realistic than those of the average rugby follower in Ireland.

Frustrated as I am with performances over Kidney's reign, as has been mentioned by some non-Irish posters here, he is not the worst coach around nor is he close to the best. I know the 'T' word sends a few into a rage but realistically(that word again) that is exactly where we are and we will come out of this a better team(and coach).

T = Transition

Can't agree with that Mankiaow. You're saying Ireland have to suffer a few ignominious results to motivate them to go into a game with determination - really? If that were the case it would indicate a coach bereft of ideas and selecting players intent on passing themselves at Test level rather than actually winning anything... hang on...

If indeed the IRFU are happy with the mediocrity being served up then they could very well keep Kidney as he is the architect in chief of that ethos, however I'd hazard a guess that the "public" aren't happy with a team that is content to be regularly rolled over by England, Wales and Scotland. If the IRFU don't care about their market - they could find it increasingly hard to sell the tv rights to a half empty Aviva.

Naturally non-Irish posters don't rate Irish players compared to their own, so therefore they think that a coach who presides over such a bunch of substandard players must be uber-talented to deliver any results at all. Needless to say I actually rate a few Irish players to be better than that and the overwhelming substandard performance is that of the coach who manages to drag them down to his level.

I am responding to the OP's original question. While most of the performances this season have been unacceptable in terms of where we believe Ireland to be, the mitigating circumstances have to be considered. I sure you will agree that, chances are, Ireland will want to set some sort of record straight, even if that comprises of avoiding the dreaded spoon. I am in no way condoning a watered down level of expectation, just trying to be a bit more realistic then many of the comments I see and hear.

I think you will find that the IRFU are relatively happy to be in some sort half-way paradise where no one is accountable and those in charge can point to WC quarter-finals, the odd stirring, passionate victory, Triple Crowns and second/third place 6n finishes as being about as good as we can be. As long as you have that sort of mentality at the top, there are going to be no radical decisions. And there is a certain arrogance there.

A loss today, however, would see some sort of change being unavoidable as we would be relegated from that paradise. The blazers will be forced to take action. A bit like Kidney making a change to his regular starting line up. The players seem to still have Kidney's ear (publicly anyway) so maybe they might do it for him. Although quite why they need that sort of motivation is beyond me.

It reminds me of the Fianna Fail mantra after the economic collapse, 'We are where we are'.

I take your point about the non-Irish posters.

Unless Ireland have one of their "we are really pumped up" performances or Italy have one of their "we enjoy shooting ourselves in the foot" performances then I think Ireland are going to be in trouble.

With Sexton on board I thought we'd be able to get through this without a horrific scare as we would be so dominant in the halfback region but now I am less than sure.

That Italian backrow and front row looks very good. You could also say that their back 3 is better than ours

The continuous clueless vilification of kidney on here by idiotic armchair experts is hilarious. In a lot of cases the players just have not performed and on the back of the provinces hitting a downward trend in addition to a horrendous injury list with a major amount of rebuilding going on then the arguments are even more brainless than usual. Kidney has not covered himself in glory either recently and is also pressurised by irfu requirements.

So lets go with change for the sake of change...the same feeling abounded when Ashton took charge in that we weren't doing as good as we should have been and we all know how that ended up. Its been small margins the last year or so and kidney has proven not to have much luck on his side recently...

Ah shure lets get someone foreign and see where that ends up...

Is BOD playing for his Lions place today?

Fortunately for him there's not exactly a mob of competitors for the 13 shirt.
But his captaincy chance is already gone imo.

What I don't see, is how Kidney is going to implement the offloading game we need to break down defences. Is he the man to get our forwards running with the ball in two hands? Is he going to start us running support lines and always make sure the ball carrier has an option other than dying with the ball?

If not, then why on earth would we give him another contract. There's change for the sake of change, but there's also stagnation for the sake of stagnation. Change might not work, not changing definitely won't.

I'm not saying its easy to do his job, and there's no shame in him failing to build on his initial success. But he's completely failed to implement the gameplan we need to be successful. We can't play the way he wants us to play and win. Not without size and power. We're just going to end smashed behind the gainline.

I have a lot of respect for the man, he's handled one of the highest pressure jobs I can imagine with grace and dignity. When he finishes out his contract he can leave with his head held high.

I think Ireland will play well today. I have a feeling they'll go for it and with Italy playing a more expansive style it could turn into a good game.

I predict Ireland by 10pts.

Cmon Ireland.

The game is exactly one second old, and the BBC mention the pope.

Outstanding.

Unfortunately Kidney is done. Finito. Anyone with two eyes knows he's finished. He's had some bad luck for sure but he's entire tactical outlook simply will not do the job. I feel sorry for him with all the vitriol from some but such is he way of sporting management. We've chatted about it at length for several months now so no point going over it again. With a full side (ignoring of course players in form for his favourites) the side wasn't performing. No excuses, he's not up to the task.

BOD could still be Lions captain. Robshaw is playing well but is he really more likely to start than BOD? I doubt it. A good player but seems an utterly uninspiring captain. Being captain of a winning side doesn't make you a great captain- I don't really see what makes him the outstanding candidate other than England winning.

Rory Best's throwing is feicing awful. Its the same with most irish hookers.

Good start by Ireland, big error by Murrey.

That was a poor lift and bad throw. There's more to the lineout than throwing. If a jumper can get his fingers to t they ought to do better

Mike Ross stripped by the Italian 9. Dreadful

Should of gone wide from heaslip there.

Good Italian lineout. Gets up in front of Ryan with a great steal. Can't blame anyone for that

bit harsh on ireland there.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Good Italian lineout. Gets up in front of Ryan with a great steal. Can't blame anyone for that

The italians lineout is bloody good

Afternoon Everyone.

Happy Super Saturday to you, whatever you're doing for it.

Italy should equalize here now...

Awesome maul. They love it.

wasn't harsh at all, he may of not tackled the player but he certainly wasn't on his feet.