The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[Triangulation]

Where have they insisted they got everything right?

Granted that was probably an unfair comment on my part. However, as responded by Higher_Ground I'd go with the consistently making certain selections and tactical decisions as evidence that they back them as correct. It shouldn't take a defeat to make them look at what is and isn't working and react accordingly, and I'll believe they've done that when we see the results on the pitch.

Lancaster has now had 17 of the 40ish games that come between his taking over and the start of RWC2015 preparations. I.e. we are nearly half-way there, yet I'm struggling to see any progress - let alone evidence that we are/will be one of the favourites to win the thing. I'd be delighted if the team proved me wrong, but right now my confidence is not high.

Far too pessimistic there. Lancaster had to overhaul the team selection to start with! Pretty certain we've seen a lot of progress too. Away wins in Paris, Edinburgh, Dublin (English graveyard of last 8 years), a win over New Zealand. Not too shabby.

Yes we got deservedly beaten up in Cardiff but the areas to fix should be clear enough to an honest and hard working coaching set up. We've all identified what needs to happen and they will too. We've a fantastioc opportunity in Argentina to continue to test combinations and players and to blood some very promising up and coming options.

[mystiroakey]

England are in good shape. Just took a battering as all teams do sometimes.

Overall the curve is upwards..

[Taylorman]

Thats true Mysti, they are on an upward curve. The point is probably that they need to be able to win the ones that really matter. This was one of them and they fell well short.

The only thing bigger for England is the World cup final so Lancaster now needs to fine tune what is a pretty good unit to peak at the right times, get practice for the 2015 battles ahead so to speak.

[GloriousEmpire]

He should start by not manufacturing animosity between the team and the referees, I suggest.

[Knackeredknees]

He should start by not manufacturing animosity between the team and the referees, I suggest.

You mean like most other managers have done in recent years?

[english warrior]

Lancaster should NOT manufacture animosity between teams and Referee's, and would do well to take a leaf out of a certain Mr Gatlands book if he wants to remain uncontroversial.

[Big]

Thats true Mysti, they are on an upward curve. The point is probably that they need to be able to win the ones that really matter. This was one of them and they fell well short.

I'm sorry but I'm struggling to see any upwards curve. If there had been a massive improvement in the training camp, personally I'd have expected to see more evidence of it on the pitch. MJ had his problems as coach - on the face of it refusing to drop some of his old team-mates (who were inexplicably joined in the undroppable camp by Hape), and not enforcing the right kind of ethic. It seems that Lancaster to his credit has gone a long way to address that. But at the same time there seem to be new undroppable favourites from his academy days - and, much to my disappointment given the way he ran the Saxons, we have really gone into our shells in terms of playing style. As a consequence of that results on the pitch haven't really improved in the last 3 or 4 years from what I can see. In his 18 months we've had some good moments like the win over NZ, but there were some highs before he came like the away win over Aus, and then absolutely stuffing them at home. There has also been plenty of drab rugby that his predecessors would have been criticised for - I don't really see this years wins over France and Italy as any better than the world cup wins over Scotland and Argentina.

So I think I'll just have to agree to disagree on us being on an upwards curve. It will become apparent whether we really are or not over the next year or so - so won't have to wait too long to find out. I'd like to be wrong, and I'd like to think the team will get much better - but that's about all I can say, so I think I'll leave the debate at that.

[TrailApe]

Lancaster should NOT manufacture animosity between teams and Referee's, and would do well to take a leaf out of a certain Mr Gatlands book if he wants to remain uncontroversial

You mean like this?

"Warren Gatland has outlined a succession of rough refereeing calls that he insists have gone against Wales this autumn and claimed it is time the 50-50 decisions “started to go our way”.

The Kiwi coach expressed his concerns about the way Wales matches have been officiated, pinpointing a number of incidents he believes have had a bearing on his team’s fate.

Gatland is looking for that balance to shift in tomorrow’s campaign finale against Australia, which will be overseen by England’s Wayne Barnes"

Yeah that looks pretty uncontroversial (if you have only one eye and a chip on both shoulders)

[maestegmafia]

New Twist

Turns out that the IRB’s review of refereeing during the Six Nations, which will include England’s demands for clarification of Steve Walsh’s refereeing during their defeat by Wales, will be used to determine the selection of referees for future matches.

Looks like Rowntree and Lancaster's big stance was to avoid getting Walsh in the future?

This seems very unfair on Steve Walsh. Most people think Walsh has in the last few years become a very fine referee and had a great six nations.

[gregortree]

Oh dear, Wayne Barnes, how did that final match go ? was Gatland happy with that reffing ?

[Triangulation]

New Twist

Turns out that the IRB’s review of refereeing during the Six Nations, which will include England’s demands for clarification of Steve Walsh’s refereeing during their defeat by Wales, will be used to determine the selection of referees for future matches.

Looks like Rowntree and Lancaster's big stance was to avoid getting Walsh in the future?

This seems very unfair on Steve Walsh. Most people think Walsh has in the last few years become a very fine referee and had a great six nations.

I have been making this point repeatedly. This was the point of them going public. Not sour grapes and all that tosh. We just never want to be reffed by him again. His interpretation of the breakdown is just "anything goes", he doesnt know what he's doing at scrum time (and to be fair - who does?), his manner with England players is just appalling. Rfuses eye contact talks at us. Tells us where to stand when setting up for scrums etc. AND there is a strongly held perception that he is anti-England. There is well documented history there. How he came to ref this game in the first places is beyond me.

[maestegmafia]

New Twist

Turns out that the IRB’s review of refereeing during the Six Nations, which will include England’s demands for clarification of Steve Walsh’s refereeing during their defeat by Wales, will be used to determine the selection of referees for future matches.

Looks like Rowntree and Lancaster's big stance was to avoid getting Walsh in the future?

This seems very unfair on Steve Walsh. Most people think Walsh has in the last few years become a very fine referee and had a great six nations.

I have been making this point repeatedly. This was the point of them going public. Not sour grapes and all that tosh. We just never want to be reffed by him again. His interpretation of the breakdown is just "anything goes", he doesnt know what he's doing at scrum time (and to be fair - who does?), his manner with England players is just appalling. Rfuses eye contact talks at us. Tells us where to stand when setting up for scrums etc. AND there is a strongly held perception that he is anti-England. There is well documented history there. How he came to ref this game in the first places is beyond me.

Walsh is one of the top five referees in the game. He has taken a long hard road to get there but he and Nigel Owens were by far the best in the tournament.

Though considering the inaptitude of the referees like Garces, Joubert or Clancey that took charge of the games england won, who all received glowing reports from the England Management I am not surprised at your ridiculous opinions on referees.

When they played Wales at Cardiff, England were given a pasting in the scrum and conceded a load of penalties, Dan Cole has been giving away bucket loads of penalties all through the six nations. It was no surprise to see England on the receiving end against the best front five in the tournament.

Regarding the breakdown, England weren't there. Croft was on the wing, the Locks in the backline tackling or waiting for ball, Wales had a field day.

Wales did their research on England and took them apart. Walsh had nothing to do with that result. You should learn not to be such a sore loser.

[Triangulation]

New Twist

Turns out that the IRB’s review of refereeing during the Six Nations, which will include England’s demands for clarification of Steve Walsh’s refereeing during their defeat by Wales, will be used to determine the selection of referees for future matches.

Looks like Rowntree and Lancaster's big stance was to avoid getting Walsh in the future?

This seems very unfair on Steve Walsh. Most people think Walsh has in the last few years become a very fine referee and had a great six nations.

I have been making this point repeatedly. This was the point of them going public. Not sour grapes and all that tosh. We just never want to be reffed by him again. His interpretation of the breakdown is just "anything goes", he doesnt know what he's doing at scrum time (and to be fair - who does?), his manner with England players is just appalling. Rfuses eye contact talks at us. Tells us where to stand when setting up for scrums etc. AND there is a strongly held perception that he is anti-England. There is well documented history there. How he came to ref this game in the first places is beyond me.

Walsh is one of the top five referees in the game. He has taken a long hard road to get there but he and Nigel Owens were by far the best in the tournament.

Though considering the inaptitude of the referees like Garces, Joubert or Clancey that took charge of the games england won, who all received glowing reports from the England Management I am not surprised at your ridiculous opinions on referees.

When they played Wales at Cardiff, England were given a pasting in the scrum and conceded a load of penalties, Dan Cole has been giving away bucket loads of penalties all through the six nations. It was no surprise to see England on the receiving end against the best front five in the tournament.

Regarding the breakdown, England weren't there. Croft was on the wing, the Locks in the backline tackling or waiting for ball, Wales had a field day.

Wales did their research on England and took them apart. Walsh had nothing to do with that result. You should learn not to be such a sore loser.

Excuse me buyt you can retract that lat commetn please. I have credited Wales with the win more than once. Wales would have won with any ref. Wales were better at scrum and breakdown and even in lineout where with croft back i thought we might get an edge. That does not mean that walsh is an acceptable ref to us. He has history. You did your homeowork on england yes and we had a farily poor selection but also you adapted quicker to walsh's non reffing of the breakdown. that is a skill and well done to wales for that.

In your rush to celebrate a terrific comeback from a very dark place pre 6 nations and in your rush to claim most Lions spots for your boys (all fair enough) a lot of welsh supporters and commentators have condemned england for dareing to question walsh. England waited a respectful period before doing this precisely to allow you to enjoy the moment and to not tip vinegar on the whole thig. The only reason this has gone public is because i am convinced that we simply do not want walsh ever again. simple.
Finally well done to wales agian on a terrific win. Well deserved. walsh did not make the difference but we do not want him ever again. for aforesaid reasons.

[maestegmafia]

I hope Walsh referee's England again soon. So you can see how unequivocally biased and ridiculous your outrageous statements are.

[jelly]

Rowntree didn't give Joubert a glowing report - he sought clarification over the breakdown area as he felt it was inconsistent. As for Clancy, the report would be described as anything but "glowing".

[maestegmafia]

Rowntree didn't give Joubert a glowing report - he sought clarification over the breakdown area as he felt it was inconsistent. As for Clancy, the report would be described as anything but "glowing".

He said glowing before.

You'll have to show links if you refute...?

[RuggerRadge2611]

Joubert had whistle tourretes in the Scotland Wales game, he ruined that game for everyone who watched it.

[jelly]

Sorry I was just making stuff up, like you. Is that not the way the game is played? Maybe I need someone to clarify the rules.

Rowntree has never said he gave glowing reports in all his wins, which you keep making up, he said in the majority of games (no mention of winning or losing).

[lostinwales]

Round and round it goes where it stops everyone knows.

The take I have on the game from what I have read is not necessarily that Walsh did stuff 'out of the envelope' although I think there are questions - but that in discussion before the game he told Rowntree one thing about his interpretations of some rules then did something else during the game.

[Triangulation]

I hope Walsh referee's England again soon. So you can see how unequivocally biased and ridiculous your outrageous statements are.

maestegmafia

all you're doing is throwing stones now.

we consider that we have an irretrievably broken relationship with one ref out of all the refs who ref the game. just one. walsh. that may in part be our fault. relationships are two way streets.

it was staggeringly crass of the IRB to appoint him for this match.

im not saying walsh was biased against us in the wales game. im just saying we cant stand his style of reffing and in the past he has clashed with england. our win record is precisely 50% of what it is under other refs. again that may in part be our fault but at the end of the day our position is simple we just dont him.

that takes nothing away from a wonderful welsh perdformance

[Triangulation]

Rowntree didn't give Joubert a glowing report - he sought clarification over the breakdown area as he felt it was inconsistent. As for Clancy, the report would be described as anything but "glowing".

He said glowing before.

You'll have to show links if you refute...?

And actually i think you'll find that Rowntree said words to the effect " we normally give glowing reports etc"

I do not think that he named Joubert at all.

Maesteg you are getting a little bit out of hand here.

This has precisely nothing to do with Wales.

[RubyGuby]

I think the ref deliberatly penalised Wales in the last 10 minutes when there were 2 certain trys on. I don't know whether he did this because the result was a given but it really stopped us having momentum at crucial moments and this would have given a better reflection of the game on the scoreboard.

[LordDowlais]

Christ is one still going ?

[Triangulation]

Yeah apparently England are not allowed to seek clarification of refs decisions. There has been quite a broohaha about it.

Bad losers : England how very dare you!

[LordDowlais]

[R!skysports]

I actually believe there was a man with a whistle behind the grassy knoll

[english warrior]

Wales won, England lost, Walsh affected the result , but not materially, however the clown has to go because of his anti- English record, surely thats not too much to ask that a bloke, who can't control his prejudices , (at least for the duration of the Game) should not be in charge of a fixture of this magnitude. Fair play, thats all we ask for!!

[Glas a du]

Right, I know in going to cop flack for this.

However.

Good on Walsh.

England under SCW were all about flopping over rucks and sealing off. They got away with it for years. They seemed invisible to refs. Teams had hammerings, moaned about the Ref and were told "it made no difference to the result, you were outclassed, move on, deal with it, less of these sour grapes"

That by no means excuses bias (if that is the case, and I'm not convinced) it doesn't even excuse incompetence (although Walsh' style contributed to a game of cracking intensity) or even the odd howler (which I admit he did commit).

Before you moan about it, get a little perspective. You've benefitted from this sort of thing often enough.

We should all get together and lobby the IRB for a root and branch review of the laws:

A - to simplify the game, to take out 'interpretation' and make it easy enough for one man to ref it.

B - even if that is beyond them, at least to start with taking the hit out of the scrum as a matter of priority.

[nathan]

New Twist

Turns out that the IRB’s review of refereeing during the Six Nations, which will include England’s demands for clarification of Steve Walsh’s refereeing during their defeat by Wales, will be used to determine the selection of referees for future matches.

Looks like Rowntree and Lancaster's big stance was to avoid getting Walsh in the future?

This seems very unfair on Steve Walsh. Most people think Walsh has in the last few years become a very fine referee and had a great six nations.

I have been making this point repeatedly. This was the point of them going public. Not sour grapes and all that tosh. We just never want to be reffed by him again. His interpretation of the breakdown is just "anything goes", he doesnt know what he's doing at scrum time (and to be fair - who does?), his manner with England players is just appalling. Rfuses eye contact talks at us. Tells us where to stand when setting up for scrums etc. AND there is a strongly held perception that he is anti-England. There is well documented history there. How he came to ref this game in the first places is beyond me.

Walsh is one of the top five referees in the game. He has taken a long hard road to get there but he and Nigel Owens were by far the best in the tournament.

Though considering the inaptitude of the referees like Garces, Joubert or Clancey that took charge of the games england won, who all received glowing reports from the England Management I am not surprised at your ridiculous opinions on referees.

When they played Wales at Cardiff, England were given a pasting in the scrum and conceded a load of penalties, Dan Cole has been giving away bucket loads of penalties all through the six nations. It was no surprise to see England on the receiving end against the best front five in the tournament.

Regarding the breakdown, England weren't there. Croft was on the wing, the Locks in the backline tackling or waiting for ball, Wales had a field day.

Wales did their research on England and took them apart. Walsh had nothing to do with that result. You should learn not to be such a sore loser.

Making stuff up again Maes? Please enlighten us all to these reports, you must have a link to them if you know whats in them?

Dan Coles has mainly been giving penalties at the breakdown, not the scrums. But you already know this dont you...

You should learn not to make stuff up, you seem to do it a fair bit on here regarding england.

[nathan]

Rowntree didn't give Joubert a glowing report - he sought clarification over the breakdown area as he felt it was inconsistent. As for Clancy, the report would be described as anything but "glowing".

He said glowing before.

You'll have to show links if you refute...?

How about you show us some links to these reports eh? All that was said by rowntree was that he's gave SOME glowing reports, not ALL and he didn't mention which ones.

So please Meas, i think you need to prove the following;

What's in these reports?
Which ones are deemed 'Glowing'.

[nathan]

Right, I know in going to cop flack for this.

However.

Good on Walsh.

England under SCW were all about flopping over rucks and sealing off. They got away with it for years. They seemed invisible to refs. Teams had hammerings, moaned about the Ref and were told "it made no difference to the result, you were outclassed, move on, deal with it, less of these sour grapes"

That by no means excuses bias (if that is the case, and I'm not convinced) it doesn't even excuse incompetence (although Walsh' style contributed to a game of cracking intensity) or even the odd howler (which I admit he did commit).

Before you moan about it, get a little perspective. You've benefitted from this sort of thing often enough.

We should all get together and lobby the IRB for a root and branch review of the laws:

A - to simplify the game, to take out 'interpretation' and make it easy enough for one man to ref it.

B - even if that is beyond them, at least to start with taking the hit out of the scrum as a matter of priority.

Nobody is taking anything away from Wales, they deserved the win - I'm not sure how i can get this across any clearer!

But you've just said yourself people moaning about the ref when England of past used to flop over the rucks and seal off. Now your asking us to not moan about it because we've benefited from it before? So other nations can moan about these things, but England can't? Wouldn't call that perspective.

[Glas a du]

No, you moan away, it's your right.

However, you should be aware of the context the rest of us will be evaluating the validity of your moan in.

[nathan]

No, you moan away, it's your right.

However, you should be aware of the context the rest of us will be evaluating the validity of your moan in.

hehe,

I'm English, i'm fairly certain other nations couldn't care less about my validity of moan!

[Glas a du]

We would never admit it, no. At least not to your face. However when England or NZ moan the establishment tends to listen. Lets face it, valid moans or not, there are wider issues here regarding the scrum that need to be resolved for all of us.

[blackcanelion]

We would never admit it, no. At least not to your face. However when England or NZ moan the establishment tends to listen. Lets face it, valid moans or not, there are wider issues here regarding the scrum that need to be resolved for all of us.

Really. If only it was so. SA and Australia both had influence on the refereeing reviews at the last world cup, whilst I see Wayne Barnes is still a referee. How many world cup finals has Wales been involved in as an additional host, whilst NZ lost any hosting rights in 2003. Those points in themselves speak for themselves.

[Glas a du]

So you're happy to be allowed to take a scrum down rather than take it on?

[blackcanelion]

So you're happy to be allowed to take a scrum down rather than take it on?

Not at all. Before I make any comments bear in mind my knowledge of scrumaging is less than thean the average high school student. Only having played at wing and full back gives me no qualifications to have an opinon on what is definitely the problem. having said that, according to the various coaches and players there's a lot going on. Players and coaches all have their opinions and they vary depending on who is talking. It's great that England are questioning the process and it's great that we all want the process to be improved. However I doubt there is a quick fix, I also doubt that NZ has any huge influence relative to everyone else. It;'s hard to tell what goes on in the halls of power. What we do from the IRB's own historical records is that NZ, South Africa and Australia traditionally had little influence in the rules of the game. Today it's likely that it's still about politics, national perspectives and biases.

[Guest]

According to the Independent today, Walsh has not been selected by the IRB for any of the 30 tests taking place this summer, with the exception if the Barbarians game. Perhaps he is taking a long holiday ? Seems strange as he is the main Oz ref on the IRB panel.

[RubyGuby]

According to the Independent today, Walsh has not been selected by the IRB for any of the 30 tests taking place this summer, with the exception if the Barbarians game. Perhaps he is taking a long holiday ? Seems strange as he is the main Oz ref on the IRB panel.

I think he's on holiday in Llanrhidian dueing these Tests - Cottage was pre booked

[maestegmafia]

According to the Independent today, Walsh has not been selected by the IRB for any of the 30 tests taking place this summer, with the exception if the Barbarians game. Perhaps he is taking a long holiday ? Seems strange as he is the main Oz ref on the IRB panel.

Not good.

He is one of the best around these days and we, the rugby viewing public are the worst off for it. The number of decent refs at International/s15/HEC level is dwindling faster each year.

[gregortree]

According to the Independent today, Walsh has not been selected by the IRB for any of the 30 tests taking place this summer, with the exception if the Barbarians game. Perhaps he is taking a long holiday ? Seems strange as he is the main Oz ref on the IRB panel.

I think he's on holiday in Llanrhidian dueing these Tests - Cottage was pre booked

..............and prepaid by a grateful nation.

[RubyGuby]

According to the Independent today, Walsh has not been selected by the IRB for any of the 30 tests taking place this summer, with the exception if the Barbarians game. Perhaps he is taking a long holiday ? Seems strange as he is the main Oz ref on the IRB panel.

I think he's on holiday in Llanrhidian dueing these Tests - Cottage was pre booked

..............and prepaid by a grateful nation.

We even left some larva bread and brie in the fridge for him - We offered a full english but he didn't seem interested

[gregortree]

I think he prefers English DoomBar to Welsh Brains, so better check the fridge for that too.

[RubyGuby]

Yeah you're right there Gregor, anything with English and Doom on it and old Walshy is right there

[english warrior]

Just a Cottage!!! why he should be in a Luxury health spa for a few weeks after the job he did for Wales, i mean one good turn deserves another.


Mind you a Cottage is probably the Welsh idea of Luxury.

[maestegmafia]

And I guess Clancy lives to ruin another day for both sides and the fans...?

[Jimpy]

Right, I know in going to cop flack for this.

However.

Good on Walsh.

England under SCW were all about flopping over rucks and sealing off. They got away with it for years. They seemed invisible to refs. Teams had hammerings, moaned about the Ref and were told "it made no difference to the result, you were outclassed, move on, deal with it, less of these sour grapes"

That by no means excuses bias (if that is the case, and I'm not convinced) it doesn't even excuse incompetence (although Walsh' style contributed to a game of cracking intensity) or even the odd howler (which I admit he did commit).

Before you moan about it, get a little perspective. You've benefitted from this sort of thing often enough.

We should all get together and lobby the IRB for a root and branch review of the laws:

A - to simplify the game, to take out 'interpretation' and make it easy enough for one man to ref it.

B - even if that is beyond them, at least to start with taking the hit out of the scrum as a matter of priority.

Nobody is taking anything away from Wales, they deserved the win - I'm not sure how i can get this across any clearer!

But you've just said yourself people moaning about the ref when England of past used to flop over the rucks and seal off. Now your asking us to not moan about it because we've benefited from it before? So other nations can moan about these things, but England can't? Wouldn't call that perspective.

You could probably make it a bit clearer if you wrote it in the same style as that presented on a benefit claim form.

[RubyGuby]

Just a Cottage!!! why he should be in a Luxury health spa for a few weeks after the job he did for Wales, i mean one good turn deserves another.


Mind you a Cottage is probably the Welsh idea of Luxury.

Funny thing is Warrior the english back row; front row and Tuilangi are staying in the family cottage next to Walsh

PS - I do like your quaint stereotypes, it's so 80's

[Jimpy]

Just a Cottage!!! why he should be in a Luxury health spa for a few weeks after the job he did for Wales, i mean one good turn deserves another.


Mind you a Cottage is probably the Welsh idea of Luxury.

No 'cottaging' - the verb..

[RubyGuby]

You could probably make it a bit clearer if you wrote it in the same style as that presented on a benefit claim form.

Come on Jumpy - That's all computerised now, no writing required thank god

Mind you the writing was on the wall for you guys last Saturday

[Sponsored content]