Lions Capt announcement

First topic message reminder :

It seems the only player who will know that he is going on tour prior to the squad being announced is the lions 2013 Tour Captain.

What a huge honour and responsibility to be that man. I would love to have him to dinner and offer him my sister but that's unlikely as i have no sister.

Anyway. There is no obvious candidate and i think that compounds the uncertainty everyone feels about this tour. I was there in 09 for every minute of every Test. We could have won, should have won. Against the mighty Boks POC was the right choice, in the Johnson mould, an abrasive forward who would lead his thin red line into battle like Gordon's Highlander's, carrying into the melee that is a Bok pack.

For me a forward capt is vital for that reason. You need a sentinel who stand out in the siege like atmosphere of a Lions series. Johnson is a RWC winning skipper but for me his zenith was as the winning Capt in 97. 2001 was a great fiasco, a tour we should have won but didn't, 2005 seemed to set a new bar for a fiasco and we all know why. 2009 meanwhile was almost glory.

Personally I think the Wallabies are eminently beatable. There is disarray in camp, the suggestion Deans is a marked man, uncertainty over the real talent in the amazing backline that is, for me, the best in the world. The timing is right. But there are ominous signs for the Lions. Debate over the Capt is the least of our worries; an embarrassment of riches at backrow, a paucity in the centres, no real creativity anywhere. is our plan going to be a la Wales, round the corner bang it up, round the corner bang it up.....my wife complains about variety and now i get it.

If we buy into the weak Aussie pack theory and hope we can destroy them up front then we may just be lead like lambs not Lions, to the slaughter. Ask Wales. If Oz gain any parity up front then their backs are just classier. Natural fleet footed footballing players. We have one, maybe 2 who fit that bill. But BOD's bod is buggered and JD2 is nowhere near the Aussie class on his own. So we have to field a massive aggressive set piece orientated tight 5 and a rampaging back row. I fully expect Tips and Warbs to figure after standing up in that huge 6 Nations decider. Likewise i feel Philips extra physicality at 9 is key, there is no point us even trying to go toe to toe with Genia even if he is just returning.

Ultimately what seems key is the foundation of the touring party and i think the Capt is that foundation. He must not be a squad Capt but a guaranteed starter, a man who will deal on and off the pitch and if necessary, rather as Johnson did, be willing to forego photo opps. I want a guy who is mean, frowning and aggressive and who lets it be known he is there for 1 thing only. The W. For me then it should be POC if he is fully fit. he did a job in SA, has returned to MOM form and has been outside Ireland's camp in this 6 Nations - a clear advantage. i love BOD and considered him but will he even start? Robshaw was up there had Eng won but they didn't. Warbs is no Lions Capt - he should be left to just do his job.

So, over to you...i am sure in the next few days this form will come back to life but in the meantime....................

1. Who SHOULD your Capt be?
2. Who WILL Gats select?
3. Who is your BOLTER Capt?
4. Will there be a squad skipper and if so who?

So Gatland says one of the mian reasons for appointing Sam was his relationship with referees, tells us 2 things. 1. He regards him as a Test starter 2. He is a buffoon; he has now revealed that he thinks his player can influence refs, what will the refs do, ensure there is no perception that they are being influenced by a player. Seriously, Gatland is like Austin Powers, no internal monologue and doesn't know when to SHUT THE FECK UP

Austin Powers.


"Oh, behave baby, behave...."

100%beefy wrote:So Gatland says one of the mian reasons for appointing Sam was his relationship with referees, tells us 2 things. 1. He regards him as a Test starter 2. He is a buffoon; he has now revealed that he thinks his player can influence refs, what will the refs do, ensure there is no perception that they are being influenced by a player. Seriously, Gatland is like Austin Powers, no internal monologue and doesn't know when to SHUT THE FECK UP

It is difficult to argue with that. How many times must he say to himself, now did I say that or think it. OOPS

Yeah, that's brilliant Gatland mind games again All refs will now be against the Lions #niceonefatgatt

100%beefy wrote:So Gatland says one of the mian reasons for appointing Sam was his relationship with referees, tells us 2 things. 1. He regards him as a Test starter 2. He is a buffoon; he has now revealed that he thinks his player can influence refs, what will the refs do, ensure there is no perception that they are being influenced by a player. Seriously, Gatland is like Austin Powers, no internal monologue and doesn't know when to SHUT THE FECK UP

1. Most had already woked out he will be a test starter by being named Captain!
2. A good relationship does not mean influence. Not much influence at RWC '11 s/f was there?

Good communication and respect are attributes that define "A good relationship"

RDSguru wrote:

100%beefy wrote:So Gatland says one of the mian reasons for appointing Sam was his relationship with referees, tells us 2 things. 1. He regards him as a Test starter 2. He is a buffoon; he has now revealed that he thinks his player can influence refs, what will the refs do, ensure there is no perception that they are being influenced by a player. Seriously, Gatland is like Austin Powers, no internal monologue and doesn't know when to SHUT THE FECK UP

1. Most had already woked out he will be a test starter by being named Captain!
2. A good relationship does not mean influence. Not much influence at RWC '11 s/f was there?

Good communication and respect are attributes that define "A good relationship"

He was named Tour Captain not Test Captain so your conclusion is inaccurate and premature at this point, secondly if you think that this disclosure won't lead to a change in relationship to prevent the perception of influence, then you must be more naive than Gatland.

And the bitterness and envy continues - God knows what some of these guys are going to feel like if Warburton leads his team to victory in Aus. Shame really, he's a top bloke and a top player - Hey ho, can't please 'em all

I'll start by saying I think Warbs was probably the wrong choice because of his form and injuries, but as a professional there is no better!!!

The guy trains twice on Xmas day, doesn't drink, but considers his odd bar of chocolate a fetish and addiction.

What he did do at the world cup was keep an open dialogue with ref's whos responded favourably to him, as he is polite, asks questions and never throws a dirty look or whinge at the ref.

He also led a squad who was widely praised for it's professionalism, and became very popular in NZ by all accounts (possibly buoyed by the England circus opposing).

So if I'm looking for the positives Warbs will lead a squad who will be professional and focus'd, and will attempt to deal with the media circus and attempts to get to the squad, dig for contraversy etc.. well.

RubyGuby wrote:And the bitterness and envy continues - God knows what some of these guys are going to feel like if Warburton leads his team to victory in Aus. Shame really, he's a top bloke and a top player - Hey ho, can't please 'em all

I am not sure there is ANY bitterness towards Warburton - you keep mixing up frustration with Gatland and a genuine feeling that Warburton may not be the right choice for captain based on form and the competition for places as bitterness to the Welsh and Warburton

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'll start by saying I think Warbs was probably the wrong choice because of his form and injuries, but as a professional there is no better!!!

The guy trains twice on Xmas day, doesn't drink, but considers his odd bar of chocolate a fetish and addiction.

What he did do at the world cup was keep an open dialogue with ref's whos responded favourably to him, as he is polite, asks questions and never throws a dirty look or whinge at the ref.

He also led a squad who was widely praised for it's professionalism, and became very popular in NZ by all accounts (possibly buoyed by the England circus opposing).

So if I'm looking for the positives Warbs will lead a squad who will be professional and focus'd, and will attempt to deal with the media circus and attempts to get to the squad, dig for contraversy etc.. well.

Cant argue with that at all.

Riskysports wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:And the bitterness and envy continues - God knows what some of these guys are going to feel like if Warburton leads his team to victory in Aus. Shame really, he's a top bloke and a top player - Hey ho, can't please 'em all

I am not sure there is ANY bitterness towards Warburton - you keep mixing up frustration with Gatland and a genuine feeling that Warburton may not be the right choice for captain based on form and the competition for places as bitterness to the Welsh and Warburton

No confusion here - the envy and bitterness is written all over these boards - its a shame really but like I said hey ho, that's life

RubyGuby wrote:And the bitterness and envy continues - God knows what some of these guys are going to feel like if Warburton leads his team to victory in Aus. Shame really, he's a top bloke and a top player - Hey ho, can't please 'em all

He comes across as being very boring and not much of a laugh. You need a few head cases to help the players gel (like Andy Powell & DOC or even Austin Healy) and I don't see anyone there to fill that role. Only ones who could be regarded as being a bit of a laugh are probably Mike Phillips (BOD & POC singled him out as being great fun).

Warren will now be blogging on The Rugby Site (if you want to give him some advice!)

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/377-warren-gatland-joins-the-rugby-site-by-the-rugby-site?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Warren+Gatland+Joins+The+Rugby+Site&utm_content=Warren+Gatland+Joins+The+Rugby+Site+Version+A+CID_21644de695884627d09d01d96c222090&utm_source=email&utm_term=Warren%20Gatland%20Joins%20The%20Rugby%20Site

"He comes across as being very boring and not much of a laugh. You need a few head cases to help the players gel"

Yeah - that approach worked well for England and Ireland in the 2011 RWC.

Warburton is a top bloke and there are plenty of players in there capable of having a craic - Ianto is a complete nut case and prankster; Hibbard is a complete lunatic and will get in to trouble given the opportunity and Mike's your man if the lads are out for an evening at Macdonalds - There are plenty of others from the other nations. Thankfully the players have far greater respect for Warburton both as a player and as a leader than most of the Lions fans on here do (at the moment). I can live with that and I'm sure Sam can as when it comes down to it; it's the players view that really matters

RubyGuby wrote:"He comes across as being very boring and not much of a laugh. You need a few head cases to help the players gel"

Yeah - that approach worked well for England and Ireland in the 2011 RWC.

Warburton is a top bloke and there are plenty of players in there capable of having a craic - Ianto is a complete nut case and prankster; Hibbard is a complete lunatic and will get in to trouble given the opportunity and Mike's your man if the lads are out for an evening at Macdonalds - There are plenty of others from the other nations. Thankfully the players have far greater respect for Warburton both as a player and as a leader than most of the Lions fans on here do (at the moment). I can live with that and I'm sure Sam can as when it comes down to it; it's the players view that really matters

I'd put him in the same category as Wilko, everyone respects him, but he is still boring and isn't going to help gel the team. The captain is meant to set the tone of the tour (and quickly). Warburton is there for Gatty because he knows he won't challenge him.

[quote]Ian McGeechan's comments on Warburton in the telegraph: Warburton knows better than many about the highs and lows of international rugby. His red card against France in the 2011 Rugby World Cup semi-final defeat was followed by a Six Nations Grand Slam in 2012. After this success came an eight-game losing streak, including four reverses at the hands of the Wallabies, but Warburton’s topsy-turvy life evened itself out again when he helped Wales to victory in the 2013 Six Nations decider against England last month. Given that he has now been named captain, and thus ticked off two consecutive career triumphs, can he now expect a major ordeal Down Under? Gatland will be hoping his young skipper has shaken off the habit.[/quote]

He doesn't sound too confident of him, does he?

Sin é wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:And the bitterness and envy continues - God knows what some of these guys are going to feel like if Warburton leads his team to victory in Aus. Shame really, he's a top bloke and a top player - Hey ho, can't please 'em all

He comes across as being very boring and not much of a laugh. You need a few head cases to help the players gel (like Andy Powell & DOC or even Austin Healy) and I don't see anyone there to fill that role. Only ones who could be regarded as being a bit of a laugh are probably Mike Phillips (BOD & POC singled him out as being great fun).

Warren will now be blogging on The Rugby Site (if you want to give him some advice!)

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/377-warren-gatland-joins-the-rugby-site-by-the-rugby-site?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Warren+Gatland+Joins+The+Rugby+Site&utm_content=Warren+Gatland+Joins+The+Rugby+Site+Version+A+CID_21644de695884627d09d01d96c222090&utm_source=email&utm_term=Warren%20Gatland%20Joins%20The%20Rugby%20Site

I actually agree with Sin on this. The last lions tour had a lot of good characters in it, the likes of Powell, Murray, DOC, Ugo seemed to help create a good team spirit in the camp. I think this is something that could be really lacking from the squad this year.

...they had good craic...but they lost.

...maybe humour by the poolside ain't what it's craiced up to be?

Every crowd has a prankster or a giddy little joke devil, this group of men will be no different. Someone will emerge as the class clown.

Warburton is there for Gatty because he knows he won't challenge him.


Give over mate - I'm not going to convince you of anything so we can beg to differ - Geech is entitled to his opinion - POC didn't exactly set the team alight on his tour of duty but the romance when the years go by is amazing - Let's wait and see eh

SecretFly wrote:...they had good craic...but they lost.

...maybe humour by the poolside ain't what it's craiced up to be?

Every crowd has a prankster or a giddy little joke devil, this group of men will be no different. Someone will emerge as the class clown.

I'm not even talking about prankster - I'm talking about needing extroverts who don't take themselves too seriously.

RubyGuby wrote:Warburton is there for Gatty because he knows he won't challenge him.


Give over mate - I'm not going to convince you of anything so we can beg to differ - Geech is entitled to his opinion - POC didn't exactly set the team alight on his tour of duty but the romance when the years go by is amazing - Let's wait and see eh

I think Martyn Williams said he was the best captain he has every played with (and he would have a few on his cv). This is what Geech had to say about him. He also doesn't take himself too seriously and seems to be great company (according to some of the Welsh players anyway).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10033275/Lions-2013-Sir-Ian-McGeechans-interactive-guide-to-squad.html

Sin e - Warburton aside are you suggesting that the welsh team after 2 successive championship wins do not posess players who like the craic. On Thursday evening I was watching a documentary with Halfpenny who's a top bloke and he said the first thing that he and a few fellas were going to do was to rib the anglos about the 30-3 game - As Fly has stated; this Lions tour party will have as much of a craic as any that has gone before - Maybe Warburton is in fact the exact foil they need. I'm sure the Irish lads will take great pleasure in ribbing the welsh about their win in Cardiff - Don'y worry about the craic as a consequence of Warburton - For feck sake; BOD seems the most sternest of individuals never mind Warburton

I actually see Warburton's decision to decline the captaincy during the 6 nations as a sign of strength; he was calculated, concentrated on his game and had a stormer against England. That for me is someone making the right decision when he needed to. I know others want to see it differently. But compare the positive reaction to Jonny bottling the Lions offer. Jonny gets eulogised for his calculated decision and Warburton gets criticised. Like I said, I can deal with the differing opinions and Geech has become a complete turn coat since the decision was made.

RubyGuby wrote:Sin e - Warburton aside are you suggesting that the welsh team after 2 successive championship wins do not posess players who like the craic. On Thursday evening I was watching a documentary with Halfpenny who's a top bloke and he said the first thing that he and a few fellas were going to do was to rib the anglos about the 30-3 game - As Fly has stated; this Lions tour party will have as much of a craic as any that has gone before - Maybe Warburton is in fact the exact foil they need. I'm sure the Irish lads will take great pleasure in ribbing the welsh about their win in Cardiff - Don'y worry about the craic as a consequence of Warburton - For feck sake; BOD seems the most sternest of individuals never mind Warburton

Thats exactly what you don't want. How do you think the Anglos will enjoy that? Immediately setting up Wales v England.

RubyGuby wrote:I actually see Warburton's decision to decline the captaincy during the 6 nations as a sign of strength; he was calculated, concentrated on his game and had a stormer against England. That for me is someone making the right decision when he needed to. I know others want to see it differently. But compare the positive reaction to Jonny bottling the Lions offer. Jonny gets eulogised for his calculated decision and Warburton gets criticised. Like I said, I can deal with the differing opinions and Geech has become a complete turn coat since the decision was made.

Pretty much everyone says that Johnny isn't bottling the tour - he is fullfilling his contract with Toulon.

The Telegraph

Wales flanker Sam Warburton is my pick to lead British and Irish Lions into battle, says Sir Ian McGeechan

Overview

I am encouraged by what I have seen. Some say it has been a middling championship but that does not have to be a concern. I am not downhearted at all. The Lions is all about chemistry, about matching players with other players and seeing one work off the other. You cannot look at players or teams in isolation. Ireland have not had a great tournament but how would their No 8 Jamie Heaslip fare if he were put between Sam Warburton and Justin Tipuric? Pretty well, I would say.

Scotland wing Tim Visser showed what a good finisher he was on Saturday night at the Stade de France. We have seen enough to know that the Lions will trouble Australia. It was great that the championship finished on a real high at the Millennium Stadium, with big-game players such as Mike Phillips and Jamie Roberts, both Lions in 2009, really stepping up. Wallabies take note.

Captaincy

For me Sam Warburton has come through strongly. The biggest question mark hanging over him was his ability to stay fit. It was not an indictment of Warburton for him to be held back from the Wales captaincy. Rob Howley did exactly the right thing. What gets you on the plane for the Lions is playing well. Leadership qualities never go away. Your form or fitness can. His last two games have answered all the questions

Sin é wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Sin e - Warburton aside are you suggesting that the welsh team after 2 successive championship wins do not posess players who like the craic. On Thursday evening I was watching a documentary with Halfpenny who's a top bloke and he said the first thing that he and a few fellas were going to do was to rib the anglos about the 30-3 game - As Fly has stated; this Lions tour party will have as much of a craic as any that has gone before - Maybe Warburton is in fact the exact foil they need. I'm sure the Irish lads will take great pleasure in ribbing the welsh about their win in Cardiff - Don'y worry about the craic as a consequence of Warburton - For feck sake; BOD seems the most sternest of individuals never mind Warburton

Thats exactly what you don't want. How do you think the Anglos will enjoy that? Immediately setting up Wales v England.

Sin - If that's your view then you have no idea what having the craic involves mate - that is exactly the sort of thing between players that gels and bonds - These players can take it, unlike the fans it seems

I think that was written just after the 6Ns (middle of March) before Paul O'Connell's return to playing. He obviously has changed his mind since then. Listen to the video commentary on the telegraph.

He might have changed his mind but he wasn't that negative about Warburton - POC will struggle with the pace in Aus anyways

RubyGuby wrote:
Sin - If that's your view then you have no idea what having the craic involves mate - that is exactly the sort of thing between players that gels and bonds - These players can take it, unlike the fans it seems

I'd say we know a bit more understanding from our provincial set-up about gelling groups of players to form one competitive team when the bulk of the players come from 2/3 competitive teams

RubyGuby wrote:He might have changed his mind but he wasn't that negative about Warburton - POC will struggle with the pace in Aus anyways

He didn't the last time we beat Australia down there

RubyGuby wrote:For feck sake; BOD seems the most sternest of individuals never mind Warburton

There are some Irish players who look like the Grinch stole all their Christmases as young children. Scowls and frowns both on and off the field. A part of that is looking tough, a part of it is just acting but you can't really read their true personality unless you're around them so you judge on what you see.

But it always amazes me how outsiders see O'Driscoll. Many seem to respect him obviously for his achievements but can't warm to him, think him up his own arse, think him (like you've just said) a stern, no-humour, ego-driven machine.

I see a number of Irish players who might fit that portrait but I can't see the evidence for it with O'Driscoll. He has left plenty of material in his wake about off-field personality - and it's a boyish, giggling, skiggling, open, approachable one mostly; interviews, in the stands, running on as water-boy etc...always a giddy smile waiting on the corner of his lips - nothing like the grim warrior on the field. It's why I've really been drawn to him since the beginning. That disparity between a pretty ordinary guy away from the field and the possessed warrior on it.

Who knows maybe Warburton is like that too. On field warrior - behind the scenes (the bit that worldwide rugby fans don't often get to see) a much more soft rounded character?

BUT.............. it's the on-field personality that will decide a series win for all players, not off-field joking techniques.

I don't know why people think the tour's going to be a borefest just because Warburton's captain. Actually, I do know why: because he doesn't drink very often. Does that mean he's going to demand a dry tour? Does it bullocks.

It's possible to have a whale of a time without drinking. It's possible to drink and have a miserable time. I'm sure there'll be plenty of time on tour for a drink or two, but what's more important - far more important - is that we do all we can to come away with a series win.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't know why people think the tour's going to be a borefest just because Warburton's captain. Actually, I do know why: because he doesn't drink very often. Does that mean he's going to demand a dry tour? Does it bullocks.

It's possible to have a whale of a time without drinking. It's possible to drink and have a miserable time. I'm sure there'll be plenty of time on tour for a drink or two, but what's more important - far more important - is that we do all we can to come away with a series win.

Nothing to do with whether he drinks or not (DOC doesn't drink and I doubt if most players hit the drink that hard nowadays). He just comes across to me to way too serious and uptight.

PS - BOD is well able to take the urine out of himself (recently tweeting that the Amlin is the new Heino!)

How much have you seen of Warburton, Sin? If it's only in the build-up to matches, then it's no surprise that he's not laughing and joking.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How much have you seen of Warburton, Sin? If it's only in the build-up to matches, then it's no surprise that he's not laughing and joking.

He is portrayed in the media as being very serious and mature for a 23 year old. Also, just had a look at his twitter account. Kind of serious as well.

Maybe we just get to see more of him in Wales, because that's not how he comes across in the interviews I've seen. And I have to say, I'd rather my Lions captain was serious and mature than flippant and pulling pranks all the time. Martin Johnson doesn't come across as the life and soul of the party.

"He is portrayed in the media as being very serious and mature for a 23 year old"So you've formed your opinion of Warburton's overall character as a human being from..............the media. Well damn it man, what more evidence d'you need? pass me the black hat - let's sentence him..........

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Maybe we just get to see more of him in Wales, because that's not how he comes across in the interviews I've seen. And I have to say, I'd rather my Lions captain was serious and mature than flippant and pulling pranks all the time. Martin Johnson doesn't come across as the life and soul of the party.

But he did pull a few pranks in his day...............

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Maybe we just get to see more of him in Wales, because that's not how he comes across in the interviews I've seen. And I have to say, I'd rather my Lions captain was serious and mature than flippant and pulling pranks all the time. Martin Johnson doesn't come across as the life and soul of the party.

Its not about pulling pranks or being the life and soul of the party. Its about realising that you will bond better if you do have a bit of fun together (rather than slagging off England for losing to Wales - will Warburton be aware that slagging the English lads off for losing to Wales might not be the best way to go about gelling a group of players like the Lions together?

As for Johnson - I think he actually failed on that score in the 2001 Lions trip. I seem to recall reading some of the players commenting on how the Welsh players really resented the English players and just stayed together.

I for one am happy for Warburton and think he will do a good job. There are concerns of course, youth, form maybe but there were some concerns for all potential captains.

BOD - would his body hold up for 3 tests.
Robshaw - didnt tour in the end
POC - had his chance in the last tour and failed to drag his team over the line in a very tight second test. Does he deserve a second shot?

Its Warburton's time. Time to get behind him and show some support. Lets face it he will have plenty of support from BOD and POC etc.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of fun on tour; but if the players come back from Australia victorious and moan about how boring it was, will you be complaining?

GunsGerms wrote:I for one am happy for Warburton and think he will do a good job. There are concerns of course, youth, form maybe but there were some concerns for all potential captains.

BOD - would his body hold up for 3 tests.
Robshaw - didnt tour in the end
POC - had his chance in the last tour and failed to drag his team over the line in a very tight second test. Does he deserve a second shot?

Its Warburton's time. Time to get behind him and show some support. Lets face it he will have plenty of support from BOD and POC etc.

He also failed in the first test. He had more reason to fail in the 2nd test (with the number of injuries). I don't think its about getting another shot - its about who is best equipped for the job.

I don't recall anyone making comments that Johnson, BOD or POC needed the same amount of support to get them over the line.

Maybe they'll all get so bored over there that they'll decide to just win the series outright in the first Test and bugger off home???

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm sure there'll be plenty of fun on tour; but if the players come back from Australia victorious and moan about how boring it was, will you be complaining?

Bully for you then if you think there will be enough fun on the tour.

I couldn't give two tosses as to how boring the tour is for the players, but there won't be another tour if the players don't gell (and quickly). They won't gell if you have the likes of Halfpenny rubbing the noses of the English in their loss to Wales.

Sin é wrote:
He also failed in the first test. He had more reason to fail in the 2nd test (with the number of injuries). I don't think its about getting another shot - its about who is best equipped for the job.

I don't recall anyone making comments that Johnson, BOD or POC needed the same amount of support to get them over the line.

If anyone deserves a second chance its BOD as he only had a few seconds as captain and therefore really never got the chance to lead the Lions at all in a test match. There were questions over POCs fitness etc. prior to selection too. I think he would be a perfectly good choice for a captain but so would Warburton.

Johnson always had other good leaders in the teams he was in. Richard Hill for example for England. All good teams have a number of good leaders.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
He also failed in the first test. He had more reason to fail in the 2nd test (with the number of injuries). I don't think its about getting another shot - its about who is best equipped for the job.

I don't recall anyone making comments that Johnson, BOD or POC needed the same amount of support to get them over the line.

If anyone deserves a second chance its BOD as he only had a few seconds as captain and therefore really never got the chance to lead the Lions at all in a test match. There were questions over POCs fitness etc. prior to selection too. I think he would be a perfectly good choice for a captain but so would Warburton.

Johnson always had other good leaders in the teams he was in. Richard Hill for example for England. All good teams have a number of good leaders.

The 2001 team that Johnson captained was a failure, so I'm not sure why he is being held up as an example of a great Lions captain for this trip.

And once again, its not about 'deserving' a chance. Its about who is best equipped for the job - both BOD & POC have the experience of trying to get groups to gel together for Ireland.

Sin é wrote:I couldn't give two tosses as to how boring the tour is for the players

If that's the case, why does it bother you that Warburton's boring?

Sin é wrote:There won't be another tour if the players don't gell (and quickly). They won't gell if you have the likes of Halfpenny rubbing the noses of the English in their loss to Wales.

Don't you think the English players would be doing the same if the result was reversed? Don't you think the Irish players will be reminding the Welsh of their Six Nations opener? It's called banter and it's one of the things that'll help the squad to gel (one 'l').

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Sin é wrote:I couldn't give two tosses as to how boring the tour is for the players

If that's the case, why does it bother you that Warburton's boring?

Sin é wrote:There won't be another tour if the players don't gell (and quickly). They won't gell if you have the likes of Halfpenny rubbing the noses of the English in their loss to Wales.

Don't you think the English players would be doing the same if the result was reversed? Don't you think the Irish players will be reminding the Welsh of their Six Nations opener? It's called banter and it's one of the things that'll help the squad to gel (one 'l').

You see - you still see it as Wales v England - its not that anymore. Its got to be Wales & England to beat Australia.

No fun for anyone to be reminded of their failures. One man's 'banter' might not be someone else's banter. If any of the Irish players slag off any of the Welsh players, at least the Welsh players had the last laugh because they won the Championship. And if the English choose to slag the Welsh about their terrible record against Australia, how is that going to build confidence in the squad to beat Australia?

Do you think that Dan Cole and Cian Healy won't have a bit of a joke about what happened during the Ireland - England game? Would you prefer them not to talk about it and let it be the elephant in the room? It'll all be banter and nothing more. All the players know how privileged they are to have been selected, they'll all be pulling in the same direction.

And I understand the concept of the Lions, but thanks for reminding me.

I can only think Sin is not being serious here, but fair play you dragged us along for a while -

100%beefy wrote:It seems the only player who will know that he is going on tour prior to the squad being announced is the lions 2013 Tour Captain.

Do you have a URL for this?
Why is it just the captain - does he have some say in the remaining selection?

Last time some (at least) of the squad were told about a week beforehand. This time round Gatland has publicly admitted discussing selection with Wilkinson before the "announcement", so the inference is again that if a player hasn't heard before the announcement then the chances are they aren't going.