Lions Capt announcement

by 100%beefy Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

It seems the only player who will know that he is going on tour prior to the squad being announced is the lions 2013 Tour Captain.

What a huge honour and responsibility to be that man. I would love to have him to dinner and offer him my sister but that's unlikely as i have no sister.

Anyway. There is no obvious candidate and i think that compounds the uncertainty everyone feels about this tour. I was there in 09 for every minute of every Test. We could have won, should have won. Against the mighty Boks POC was the right choice, in the Johnson mould, an abrasive forward who would lead his thin red line into battle like Gordon's Highlander's, carrying into the melee that is a Bok pack.

For me a forward capt is vital for that reason. You need a sentinel who stand out in the siege like atmosphere of a Lions series. Johnson is a RWC winning skipper but for me his zenith was as the winning Capt in 97. 2001 was a great fiasco, a tour we should have won but didn't, 2005 seemed to set a new bar for a fiasco and we all know why. 2009 meanwhile was almost glory.

Personally I think the Wallabies are eminently beatable. There is disarray in camp, the suggestion Deans is a marked man, uncertainty over the real talent in the amazing backline that is, for me, the best in the world. The timing is right. But there are ominous signs for the Lions. Debate over the Capt is the least of our worries; an embarrassment of riches at backrow, a paucity in the centres, no real creativity anywhere. is our plan going to be a la Wales, round the corner bang it up, round the corner bang it up.....my wife complains about variety and now i get it.

If we buy into the weak Aussie pack theory and hope we can destroy them up front then we may just be lead like lambs not Lions, to the slaughter. Ask Wales. If Oz gain any parity up front then their backs are just classier. Natural fleet footed footballing players. We have one, maybe 2 who fit that bill. But BOD's bod is buggered and JD2 is nowhere near the Aussie class on his own. So we have to field a massive aggressive set piece orientated tight 5 and a rampaging back row. I fully expect Tips and Warbs to figure after standing up in that huge 6 Nations decider. Likewise i feel Philips extra physicality at 9 is key, there is no point us even trying to go toe to toe with Genia even if he is just returning.

Ultimately what seems key is the foundation of the touring party and i think the Capt is that foundation. He must not be a squad Capt but a guaranteed starter, a man who will deal on and off the pitch and if necessary, rather as Johnson did, be willing to forego photo opps. I want a guy who is mean, frowning and aggressive and who lets it be known he is there for 1 thing only. The W. For me then it should be POC if he is fully fit. he did a job in SA, has returned to MOM form and has been outside Ireland's camp in this 6 Nations - a clear advantage. i love BOD and considered him but will he even start? Robshaw was up there had Eng won but they didn't. Warbs is no Lions Capt - he should be left to just do his job.

So, over to you...i am sure in the next few days this form will come back to life but in the meantime....................

1. Who SHOULD your Capt be?
2. Who WILL Gats select?
3. Who is your BOLTER Capt?
4. Will there be a squad skipper and if so who?

by dragonbreath Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:28 pm

Gretgael1 wrote:If Australia are at least as smart as Wales would they not have deployed the same tactics as Wales in the world cup when they played Ireland two weeks previous to that? It's not like he took them by surprise in the world cup, sob was European player of the year, hardly under the radar! Anyway, I think people are doing him a huge injustice by saying he is just a ball carrier, he's more than that. He was great against Wales this year, he hit everything that moved and his work rate is phenomenal. He needs to be used correctly, I think that's the biggest problem.

They played you first, were probably looking toward harder games ahead and didn't do their homework as well as we did. No doubt the Welsh management team watched that Australia game and used it to inform their tactics. Unlikely to happen twice. I agree O'Brien needs to be used correctly. As an impact player

by dragonbreath Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:30 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Robshaw, well little more than a hard working pro, I wouldn't even take him on the plane, but that is unlikely as it would be seen as an insult to England to leave their captain on the beach.

sorry Dragonsbreath disagree with that...

But you would start Lydiate i assume...

Joe Worsley was derided for being a tackle machine and nothing more...yet Lydiate similarly a tackle machine and no more, is celebrated as a MUST for the lions 6 spot...

Interesting.

Who mentioned Lydiate Doh

by Geordie Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:32 pm

Every welsh fan on 606 Wink

by dragonbreath Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:33 pm

thomh wrote:I don't think Brown and Jones are better blindsides than Tom Wood at all, though they do cover other positions to a higher standard. Brown's best form in the Six Nations was as a scavenging openside.

Yeh so good, Lawes was selected in front of him. Wood will be lucky to travel and is cetainly not in the running to lead the squad. And I repeat this is a Captain's thread. Wood is irrelevant to this discussion

by dragonbreath Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Every welsh fan on 606

ERR don't think I did though warning

by Geordie Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:35 pm

Well in that case i retractn that statement your the only Welsh fan on 606 who hasnt... Wink

And Lawes went to 6 as Wood was moved to 8.

by offload Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:43 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well in that case i retractn that statement your the only Welsh fan on 606 who hasnt...

And Lawes went to 6 as Wood was moved to 8.

Geordie - Do you mind if I mention Lydiate. Wink

I'm not making any comparisons across the back row (I happen to think that Robshaw and particularly Wood are excellent players) but it's not fair to call Lydiate just a tackle machine. He was the stand out player in the 2012 6N's and had an excellent WC. He's a complete 6 imo with a very high work rate at the breakdown.. I don't think he's done enough since injury though and I would be surprised if he tours.

by MDB Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:58 pm

Apologies, wasnt mentioning SOB as a captain candidate. Brown is way ahead of him in terms of that

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:02 pm

I personally don't see SOB at 6, I see him as an 8 or a 7.

by Geordie Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:03 pm

Offload feel free Very Happy

by Scrumpy Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:06 pm

Neil Jenkins has been appointed as an assistant coach for this summer's British and Irish Lions tour to Hong Kong and Australia.

Jobs for the boys, i'd love to see Edwards face now! Very Happy

by Gretgael1 Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:15 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
Gretgael1 wrote:If Australia are at least as smart as Wales would they not have deployed the same tactics as Wales in the world cup when they played Ireland two weeks previous to that? It's not like he took them by surprise in the world cup, sob was European player of the year, hardly under the radar! Anyway, I think people are doing him a huge injustice by saying he is just a ball carrier, he's more than that. He was great against Wales this year, he hit everything that moved and his work rate is phenomenal. He needs to be used correctly, I think that's the biggest problem.

They played you first, were probably looking toward harder games ahead and didn't do their homework as well as we did. No doubt the Welsh management team watched that Australia game and used it to inform their tactics. Unlikely to happen twice. I agree O'Brien needs to be used correctly. As an impact player

I've mentioned that Australia played Ireland first but my point is that SOB didn't walk into that game as an unknown, they knew what he was bringing to the table and he still had a great game. Wales knew what he brought to the table but they were able to deal with it better, maybe Australia will fail again in nullifying him if selected.

Btw, I doubt Australia were looking to harder games in a group that consisted of Italy, USA and Russia. Ireland were clearly challenging them for top spot.

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:17 pm

VictorU3 wrote:Neil Jenkins has been appointed as an assistant coach for this summer's British and Irish Lions tour to Hong Kong and Australia.

Jobs for the boys, i'd love to see Edwards face now!

I suspect it was in Gatlands mind all along. Not picking Edwards & the later timing of Jenkins is all politics & not to be seen too Welshcentric.

by Geordie Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:28 pm

I suspect it was in Gatlands mind all along. Not picking Edwards & the later timing of Jenkins is all politics & not to be seen too Welshcentric.

But if he'd picked Edwards at least he could have said..well erm he's English Very Happy

thus no welsh bias...

by offload Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:02 pm

VictorU3 wrote:Neil Jenkins has been appointed as an assistant coach for this summer's British and Irish Lions tour to Hong Kong and Australia.

Jobs for the boys, i'd love to see Edwards face now!

Edwards was out practising his kicking the other evening!

by dragonbreath Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:23 pm

Gretgael1 wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
Gretgael1 wrote:If Australia are at least as smart as Wales would they not have deployed the same tactics as Wales in the world cup when they played Ireland two weeks previous to that? It's not like he took them by surprise in the world cup, sob was European player of the year, hardly under the radar! Anyway, I think people are doing him a huge injustice by saying he is just a ball carrier, he's more than that. He was great against Wales this year, he hit everything that moved and his work rate is phenomenal. He needs to be used correctly, I think that's the biggest problem.

They played you first, were probably looking toward harder games ahead and didn't do their homework as well as we did. No doubt the Welsh management team watched that Australia game and used it to inform their tactics. Unlikely to happen twice. I agree O'Brien needs to be used correctly. As an impact player

I've mentioned that Australia played Ireland first but my point is that SOB didn't walk into that game as an unknown, they knew what he was bringing to the table and he still had a great game. Wales knew what he brought to the table but they were able to deal with it better, maybe Australia will fail again in nullifying him if selected.

Btw, I doubt Australia were looking to harder games in a group that consisted of Italy, USA and Russia. Ireland were clearly challenging them for top spot.

Did I say group games. Too much reading what you want into words that say nothing of the sort.

by wayne Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:27 pm

I didn't bother going any further back than 1971, every Captain of the Lions from that date except BOD in 2005 has come from the Country who has won the 5 or 6 Nations title or finished runner up to France or in the case of Finlay Calder his team Scotland finished joint 2nd with England in 1989, by all accounts Warren Gatland always picks a forward as his Captain for series, he sometimes picks backs for one off games but not long term. Personally I would have had BOD, as he doesn't come in on under the above criteria, I don't believe he will be Captain. The Welsh Team Captain that won this years 6 Nations Title was Sam Warburton, as others have said the Bookies very rarely get it wrong.

by Gretgael1 Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:28 pm

Surely the objective for any team was to top their group? You can't look further ahead because you don't know the outcome of the other groups.

by SecretFly Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:39 pm

wayne wrote:I didn't bother going any further back than 1971, every Captain of the Lions from that date except BOD in 2005 has come from the Country who has won the 5 or 6 Nations title or finished runner up to France or in the case of Finlay Calder his team Scotland finished joint 2nd with England in 1989, by all accounts Warren Gatland always picks a forward as his Captain for series, he sometimes picks backs for one off games but not long term. Personally I would have had BOD, as he doesn't come in on under the above criteria, I don't believe he will be Captain. The Welsh Team Captain that won this years 6 Nations Title was Sam Warburton, as others have said the Bookies very rarely get it wrong.

Is all of the above that you quoted the reason they are rarely wrong though?
They do the sums on the history of who did what when in whatever year?
Surely picking a Captain should be a little more complex than all that? At this rate of going, the Wallabies will know the entire first test 15 based on what history throws up about who goes where when and how.

Stats don't lie, and obviously yours won't either, but that's a disappointing sight to see when everyone else was having such fun trying to work out who the captain would be.

He was already picked even before Gatland knew who he was going to choose...history chose him.

by dragonbreath Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:45 pm

Gretgael1 wrote:Surely the objective for any team was to top their group? You can't look further ahead because you don't know the outcome of the other groups.

Now there we have a typical NH mentality. Australia would have expected to win the group and were more focused on winning the tournament rather than just qualifying.

by wayne Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:54 pm

SecretFly wrote:
wayne wrote:I didn't bother going any further back than 1971, every Captain of the Lions from that date except BOD in 2005 has come from the Country who has won the 5 or 6 Nations title or finished runner up to France or in the case of Finlay Calder his team Scotland finished joint 2nd with England in 1989, by all accounts Warren Gatland always picks a forward as his Captain for series, he sometimes picks backs for one off games but not long term. Personally I would have had BOD, as he doesn't come in on under the above criteria, I don't believe he will be Captain. The Welsh Team Captain that won this years 6 Nations Title was Sam Warburton, as others have said the Bookies very rarely get it wrong.

Is all of the above that you quoted the reason they are rarely wrong though?
They do the sums on the history of who did what when in whatever year?
Surely picking a Captain should be a little more complex than all that? At this rate of going, the Wallabies will know the entire first test 15 based on what history throws up about who goes where when and how.

Stats don't lie, and obviously yours won't either, but that's a disappointing sight to see when everyone else was having such fun trying to work out who the captain would be.
I can't believe you would take that whole synopsis for the whole team when it only normally applies to the Captain, as I said I would have had BOD personally especially after WGs comments that the tour captain isn't guaranteed his position in the Test team even though I would have him at the moment.

He was already picked even before Gatland knew who he was going to choose...history chose him.

by Gretgael1 Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:00 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
Gretgael1 wrote:Surely the objective for any team was to top their group? You can't look further ahead because you don't know the outcome of the other groups.

Now there we have a typical NH mentality. Australia would have expected to win the group and were more focused on winning the tournament rather than just qualifying.

That's what you got from that? Come on, you have to focus on the job in front of you. Every good team will not underestimate their opponent. Anyway, I'll leave it at that because it's not really relevant to the thread.

by thomh Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:03 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
thomh wrote:I don't think Brown and Jones are better blindsides than Tom Wood at all, though they do cover other positions to a higher standard. Brown's best form in the Six Nations was as a scavenging openside.

Yeh so good, Lawes was selected in front of him. Wood will be lucky to travel and is cetainly not in the running to lead the squad. And I repeat this is a Captain's thread. Wood is irrelevant to this discussion

Sigh. Lawes was not picked ahead of Wood, and I was responding to one of your own comments about the merits of various blindsides, so you can't say I've taken the thread off topic

by 100%beefy Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:16 pm

VictorU3 wrote:Neil Jenkins has been appointed as an assistant coach for this summer's British and Irish Lions tour to Hong Kong and Australia.

Jobs for the boys, i'd love to see Edwards face now!

2005...16/27 staff from England

by beshocked Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:23 pm

thomh wrote:I don't think Brown and Jones are better blindsides than Tom Wood at all, though they do cover other positions to a higher standard. Brown's best form in the Six Nations was as a scavenging openside.

I do think Brown is a better blindside than Wood as well as in any backrow position. Brown's best form in the 6 nations was at openside because he was picked in that position - it shows his ability to adapt.

Brown would contribute a lot more to the Lions - he's an in form player who can play 6,7 and 8 all to a good standard. He's currently Scottish captain so he has the leadership qualities necessary.

Wood in comparison struggled at no 8 for England.

Could well see a backrow of

6.Brown
7.Warburton
8.O Brien

by majesticimperialman Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:09 pm

offload wrote:
VictorU3 wrote:Neil Jenkins has been appointed as an assistant coach for this summer's British and Irish Lions tour to Hong Kong and Australia.

Jobs for the boys, i'd love to see Edwards face now!

Edwards was out practising his kicking the other evening!

Edwards out practicising his kicking you say. ermmmmm chin

I bet right now he feels like he as been kicked right in the B*********S. OUCH. Crying or Very sad

by SecretFly Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:49 pm

I feel a bus fight coming on when Gatland resumes his position as Welsh coach later in the year.

Go easy on him Shaun, he's had the accident so it won't be a fair fight.

by maestegmafia Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:42 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10008892/Picking-Sam-Warburton-as-Lions-captain-would-create-a-real-headache-in-the-back-row.html

Interesting Article on Potential of Warbs getting the captaincy

by B91212 Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:33 am

1. Who SHOULD your Capt be? - 1st choice POC, second BOD
2. Who WILL Gats select? - Warburton? (hope not)
3. Who is your BOLTER Capt? - K. Brown or Sexton
4. Will there be a squad skipper and if so who? Hopefully not. It's hardly a long tour, what if the tour captain doesn't play the first test, the first test team captain does well but due to injuries the tour captain is chosen for the second test. Just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

by dragonbreath Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:30 am

thomh wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
thomh wrote:I don't think Brown and Jones are better blindsides than Tom Wood at all, though they do cover other positions to a higher standard. Brown's best form in the Six Nations was as a scavenging openside.

Yeh so good, Lawes was selected in front of him. Wood will be lucky to travel and is cetainly not in the running to lead the squad. And I repeat this is a Captain's thread. Wood is irrelevant to this discussion

Sigh. Lawes was not picked ahead of Wood, and I was responding to one of your own comments about the merits of various blindsides, so you can't say I've taken the thread off topic

Sigh. That was a joke Doh

OK lets say that Wood is as good as Brown and Jones (even though IMO he isn't, he certainly is not as experienced at this level) he is not even in your wildest fanboy imaginings a candidate for the captaincy. He is I repeat a borderline passenger, a dirtracker at very best. Even you admit he does not have the versatility of Brown or Jones. Why would you take him?

by Geordie Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:38 pm

This is directing a bit off topic but ill just say Dragons Breath, in defence of wood..whilst the recent 6n proved he isnt an 8...he does play 6 and 7 to a very high standard as shown for England and the Prem and HC.
Plus whilst we want some versatility,...we do need some specialists in there...Jack of all...master...blah blah. Im a huge fan of Wood...but personally i wouldnt take him. I think Brown has shown up better in big games all season and the rest of the competition is impressive. Even Croft is not as good as Wood as a 6 (IMHO)...however he would give the lions a different prospect there.

As for Captain...why not Brown. Has ALL the credentials. Not many others really do. POC?

by **Pal Joey** Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:15 am

Warren Gatland was interviewed on Rugby HQ here.

He's said 28-30 players are on his list and when Timmy Horan asked him who is most likely to be Captain, WG mentioned BOD, Robshaw and after a slight pause... Warburton (in that order). So Warbs it is then, no?

by Geordie Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:22 am

Robshaw?

HHmmm that would suggest he is potentially a test starter which would be a very interesting call. Now im a huge fan of Robshaw for England...but i can appreciate arguements for others ahead of him in a Lions shirt.

The back row is such a competitive position.

by **Pal Joey** Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:46 am

I think he will definitely tour but maybe he is 3rd or 2nd choice at best to lead, Falcon?

by Geordie Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:05 am

I agree i think he has to tour...

Robshaw gives you a player with excellent alround skills (leadership, tackling, breakdown, link man and even lineout options) a non stop engine and great desire and never say die attitude. Its these types of players that allow your more skilled players the space and time to shine and do their stuff.

So he is a player i would definately take. and if he doesnt i would be very dissapointed with WG.

by damage_13 Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:21 am

erm.. when IS the captain announcement?

by Geordie Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:41 am

Its been announced Damage...

Im the Lions Captain Very Happy

by GunsGerms Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:14 am

At this stage Robshaw has most definitely done enough to tour without doubt. I think he is exactly the sort of guy you need on a tour like this. Seems like a very level headed guy and a work horse on the field.

Robshaw and indeed maybe Warburton are the last guys you would expect to get in any kind of off field trouble and they are in my opinion real leaders on the pitch.

That said and I know lots of people dont think he is a guarenteed starter but Id pick BOD as captain. I doubt he will be but beacuse of his experience and the fact that he is such an inspirational guy on the pitch I think he is the best choice.

by Breadvan Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:28 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its been announced Damage...

Im the Lions Captain

Not Spartacus then... Headscratch

by Geordie Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:42 am

Heres one that may not have been suggested before...

Would you go with a flank of
6 Robshaw
7 Warburton

??

by Breadvan Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:53 am

Wood/SOB
Tipuric
Faletau/Morgan

by GunsGerms Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:55 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Heres one that may not have been suggested before...

Would you go with a flank of
6 Robshaw
7 Warburton

??

6 Robshaw/SOB
7 Warburton/Tipuric
8 Heaslip/Faletau

I would bring these guys. I would take Ferris instead of one of the above if he was fit.

by Geordie Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:57 am

But then we leave behind Brown who's been simply outstanding this season.

The back row is a serious dilema...some real quality players are going to be left behind.

by GunsGerms Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:21 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:But then we leave behind Brown who's been simply outstanding this season.

The back row is a serious dilema...some real quality players are going to be left behind.

Someone has to be left behind. Might as well be the Scottish guy.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:24 pm

1) Brown or Robshaw or Jones or BOD
2) Warburton
3) Care Wink

4) No

by little_badger Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:58 pm

I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and say it shouldn't be Warburton. I think he works best when he concentrates on his own game. Someone like POC for me, he's experienced, a big game player and when faced with that raging around the pitch I wouldn't want to be an Aussie player.

by Scarpia Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:31 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anybody but Warburton pls

Qualification needed here please. Do you think he is not good enough or are you concerned that it would affect his form?

by ChequeredJersey Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:39 pm

If he's like me, it's because there is a lot of evidence that he is a good player but not necessarily Wales' best captain and it would have a strong (IMO negative) impact on the feel of the squad to have Gatland name his National Captain as Captain

by TJ1 Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:34 pm

Brown as captain. Balance the back row around him playing.

by R!skysports Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:41 pm

Not sure POC has done enough yet to be such a shoe in

Has come back from injury and played terrible one week then very good the next

This board really only has the ability to remember the last game!

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