Fuentes - evidence of wider offences destroyed?

I'm shocked hear that Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria has ordered evidence in the form of blood samples that could have pointed to a broader event than cycling to be destroyed.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

This just sounds perverse and does nothing to dispell concerns of wilder involvement. Still, when one thinks of what's been suggested in terms of Olympians etc, and suspicions of the integrity of the Spanish authorities, it isn't completely surprising to me. Regrettable though.

Sports is now a multi-billion-dollar industry, if a business man did the business equivalent he would have been jailed for 10 years. They are sentencing him like he gave the cheat code to a local arcade game

Anyone who was expecting any "names" to come from this trial didn't understand the nature of the trial or the case itself...

I am just bored with the cycle of doping, deceit, and witch trial. I think we need to look for another route. Frankly I don't care anymore who dopes or not.

Having studied this extensively, i am not surprised by this at all.
It is not in their interests to uncover doping scandals implicating their biggest stars.

kingraf, the way you put that together sounds a lot like someone who believes doping is rife in sport and yet you do not. Interesting.

LS- My point is that if a businesman got caught fraudulently creating fake CV's for fortune 500 CEOs or any other unfair widespread business practise, he wouldnt get a one-year suspended sentence. Sports is mega money, as such transgressors of this scale need mega punishment.

all the more reason to cling onto that money for dear life!

I suppose, but
Fuentes
Ariza
Conte,
these are known dope-dealers and they are allowed to work with athletes again, no questions asked. I sometimes feel like these agencies dont give a **** about doping. Its all good and well to punish known athletes, but athletes are generally idiots, seeing their mate caught wont make them stop doping, but losing a supplier at least makes it tougher.

I do care. I'm happy for them to have a dopers championship but fact is nobody would watch it. These guys smuggle themselves into competition with honest athletes and take the money.

Life bans from clean sport every time in my book, but by all means feel free to have a dopers event and let people choose what to watch.

Don't agree bb. Post festina, the culprits were welcomed back and the spectators did not change at all!
They want these superhuman efforts, not these slower, less exciting displays.

kingraf wrote:I suppose, but
Fuentes
Ariza
Conte,
these are known dope-dealers and they are allowed to work with athletes again, no questions asked. I sometimes feel like these agencies dont give a **** about doping. Its all good and well to punish known athletes, but athletes are generally idiots, seeing their mate caught wont make them stop doping, but losing a supplier at least makes it tougher.

Let me add Ferrari, Galea, Del Moral, ... Conte (the whole of BALCO) carried on this thing as a legitimate business.

Absolutely despicable. I am with BB. I had much rather have a Dope Olympics and let them be put in a Roman Circus (oh wait e have Cage Fighting, WWE/WWF).

and bodybuilding....

But in all seriousness that won't stop doping, you will still get those saying they are clean but continue to dope. This "win at all costs" mentality erodes everything else, and nothing atm can or will change that.

Look at wheelchair marathons vs the abled-bodied. If the clock was all people cared about The wheelchair races would have its own circuit. We want the human effort and struggle.

When the cycling dopers started getting caught, it wrecked the sport in South Africa, it went from having one of the prime slots, to just the TdF showing, with no mention in the news

I'm not going to comment on something I know very little (if anything about) so I'll leave it to Britain's beloved tennis player...

British tennis player Andy Murray has expressed his disbelief at the Spanish authorities overseeing cycling scandal Operation Puerto, asking if it is the "biggest cover-up in sports history".

Doctor Eufemiano Fuentes was convicted on Tuesday over his role in supplying blood transfusions to cyclists.

Murray tweeted after a Spanish court ordered 211 blood bags to be destroyed. "Case is beyond a joke," he said. "Why would court order blood bags to be destroyed? #coverup."

TSJ

I presume that's C&P from the BBC website.

I, and anyone that knows about Fuentes and Operacion Puerto, know that it is not a cycling scandal but one that spreads across other sports. Fuentes was definitely involved with Spanish track and field athletes prior to the 1992 Olympics and has strongly hinted at links to Spanish football and tennis. No way is any cover up to protect cycling and cyclists...

Cycling has become the scapegoat because they have actually acted (to a limited extent) on the evidence available, resulting in bans for a few high profile riders (Basso, Valverde, Ullrich).

Spanish authorities seem to determined to make every one of their sports look guilty as hell.

I want to see tennis players like Nadal, Ferrer and others, and football players in Spain, both foreigners like Ronaldo, Messi and Spaniards like Iniesta, Xavi, Villa, Sergio Ramos etc speaking out. Why don't the innocent call for the bags to be released? Continued silence from Spanish politicians as well.

dummy_half wrote:TSJ

I presume that's C&P from the BBC website.

I, and anyone that knows about Fuentes and Operacion Puerto, know that it is not a cycling scandal but one that spreads across other sports. Fuentes was definitely involved with Spanish track and field athletes prior to the 1992 Olympics and has strongly hinted at links to Spanish football and tennis. No way is any cover up to protect cycling and cyclists...

Cycling has become the scapegoat because they have actually acted (to a limited extent) on the evidence available, resulting in bans for a few high profile riders (Basso, Valverde, Ullrich).

Yeah it was taken from the Sportsday bit. There's a full article up now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22363860 . I understand what you're saying; this guy's at the centre of something serious but there's probably no way of proving anything.

Cycling was an easy target because it requires so much endurance. Testosterone levels drop sharply during a TdF, which would harm their race against the clock.


www.slate.com/articles/sports/explainer/2012/06/lance_armstrong_charged_why_is_there_so_much_doping_in_professional_cycling_.html?original_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DWhy%2Bcyclists%2Bdope%2Btestosterone%26btnG%3D%26client%3Dms-opera-mini-android%26channel%3Dnew

kingraf

doping has been going on in cycling for as long as money has been paid for winning races (check out the stories of Major Taylor or the Pelissier brothers to see what was going on 100 years ago). The only difference is that oxygen vector doping (EPO and blood doping) is much more effective in performance enhancement than earlier techniques.

I'm not in any way defending cycling's involvement with the likes of Fuentes, just pointing out that the article TSJ copied twice refers to Puerto as a cycling scandal whereas it is much more wide-ranging than this.

Henman Bill wrote:Spanish authorities seem to determined to make every one of their sports look guilty as hell.

I want to see tennis players like Nadal, Ferrer and others, and football players in Spain, both foreigners like Ronaldo, Messi and Spaniards like Iniesta, Xavi, Villa, Sergio Ramos etc speaking out. Why don't the innocent call for the bags to be released? Continued silence from Spanish politicians as well.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/02/nadal-operation-puerto-doctor-should-name-names/46334/

They kind of have

Why is Murray getting involved? It just looks like PR. Is he trying to hint that he knows something? Or is he just using it as an opportunity to declare that he got his muscles without the use of drugs? Too much talk by players who know nothing could in itself be damaging as it gives the impression that do perhaps know something. Of course if they are asked a question they have to answer but they should be under no obligation to keep declaring their innocence. Maybe some of them are as bored with the topic as we are...

Innocent until proved guilty. Not innocent or guilty because of what you say or don't say.

I get Andy's angle. I follow him on twitter and he frequently gets into it with cyclists and general sports fans about doping, so I dont think he is just paying lip service, I think he is genuinely annoyed, both as a fan and a fellow athlete

I think Murray was speaking as a sports fan, rather than a sportsman.

A lot of people are very interested in who was working with Fuentes. No surprise that someone with as keen an interest in sports as Murray would be outraged at the intention to destroy potential evidence.

hawkeye wrote:Why is Murray getting involved? It just looks like PR. Is he trying to hint that he knows something? Or is he just using it as an opportunity to declare that he got his muscles without the use of drugs? Too much talk by players who know nothing could in itself be damaging as it gives the impression that do perhaps know something. Of course if they are asked a question they have to answer but they should be under no obligation to keep declaring their innocence. Maybe some of them are as bored with the topic as we are...

Innocent until proved guilty. Not innocent or guilty because of what you say or don't say.

Is he not allowed to comment on what is a serious issue? Take your 'I hate Murray' hat off.

Ridiculous, Hawkeye.

Is Murray trying to hint that he knows something? He does know something! He knows that blood tests were ordered to be destroyed.

As for why he's getting involved... Yeah, how dare a sportsman speak out to try and protect the transparency and fairness of sport. Perhaps all sportsmen and women should just ignore that's its going on. That's usually how these things get resolved, by everyone sticking their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on!?

As BB said, ridiculous!

He doesn't "know" anything, but it should be obvious to him that there's a decent probability some blood bags belong to Rafa.
And he almost certainly uses a different doctor, so has nothing to worry about :P

Lest HE forget, Murray trained in Spain under Sanchez for two years.

Murray became frustrated when he realised that he was losing ground, in particular to Rafa Nadal, less than a year older than him. "Suddenly they were getting bigger and stronger, and he didn't like that," Judy says. "He played for Britain in the under-16 championship and they played Spain in the final. After the final was over he went off and played racketball with Nadal, and he came on the phone afterwards and said, 'I've just played racketball with Rafa and do you know what? He trains with Carlos Moya [then the world number one]. Who have I got to play with - you and my brother! Rrararar!' I was on the phone, thinking, 'Great' because it was all coming from him that I'm not doing enough, and he went, 'I wanna go and train in Spain!'"
....
The biggest problem back then was stamina - he didn't have the strength and he hadn't put in enough hours. Sánchez says Murray grew as a player in his two years in Spain, and has been impressed by the progress he has made since he left.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/jun/09/tennis.features

In 2002 age 15, Andy Murray left Britain to attend Academia Sanchez‐Casal where he trained for the next two‐and‐a‐half years, before going on to win the 2005 US Open junior title and then turning professional.

http://www.soyouwanttowinwimbledon.com/TG%20SANCHEZ-CASAL%20DOC%201.pdf

Hawkeye would you like some cream served up with that waffle?

One significant bit (despite Samaranch Senior's involvement) is how, with such non-compliance with International laws and regulations regarding doping, it still managed to be awarded Barcelona Olympics.

Well the IOC don't really care about doping, they want records being broken every 4 years and good viewership etc.

LastDamnation wrote:Well the IOC don't really care about doping, they want records being broken every 4 years and good viewership etc.

It is business LastDamnation, and the line between what is a bad drug and what is commonplace is pretty thin. What about asthma medicine, Novak when he hurt his ankle in the DC match was given anti-inflammatories by the ATP trainer and he openly talked about them kicking in and helping him win the match, is that PED? Yes of course it is but I don't have a problem with its use.

By the way who here does have a problem with a player who twists his ankle and gets anti-inflammatories? And should that be allowed, if not for those anti-inflammatories I think Serbia loses that DC match and maybe the tie.

laverfan wrote:Lest HE forget, Murray trained in Spain under Sanchez for two years.

Murray became frustrated when he realised that he was losing ground, in particular to Rafa Nadal, less than a year older than him. "Suddenly they were getting bigger and stronger, and he didn't like that," Judy says. "He played for Britain in the under-16 championship and they played Spain in the final. After the final was over he went off and played racketball with Nadal, and he came on the phone afterwards and said, 'I've just played racketball with Rafa and do you know what? He trains with Carlos Moya [then the world number one]. Who have I got to play with - you and my brother! Rrararar!' I was on the phone, thinking, 'Great' because it was all coming from him that I'm not doing enough, and he went, 'I wanna go and train in Spain!'"
....
The biggest problem back then was stamina - he didn't have the strength and he hadn't put in enough hours. Sánchez says Murray grew as a player in his two years in Spain, and has been impressed by the progress he has made since he left.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/jun/09/tennis.features

In 2002 age 15, Andy Murray left Britain to attend Academia Sanchez‐Casal where he trained for the next two‐and‐a‐half years, before going on to win the 2005 US Open junior title and then turning professional.

http://www.soyouwanttowinwimbledon.com/TG%20SANCHEZ-CASAL%20DOC%201.pdf

I found that Guardian article interview interseting laverfan. It talks about Britain playing Spain in the under 16 championship. It implies that Murray played Nadal in that championship. I've tried to find out if he did but couldn't track down what event this was, Do you know? I think from the article it was before Murray moved to Spain so he was 14? And Rafa would have been 15? I've always had doubt about the connections that Murray (and never Nadal) says he has with Nadal from an early age. Murray was 15 (+?) when he moved to Spain speaking I presume no Spanish. Nadal was barely a year older but didn't train at an academy and barely at that time spoke any English. He was also a little bit further in his career as he turned pro in 2001 when he was barely 16 (at the same time that Murray attended the academy in Spain). The idea put about (by Murray) that they were in any way "friends" at this time doesn't quite add up. It may have been useful at the time (for Murray) to play up such connections.

@SoCal... recall Prohibition in the US. Now, Drink Responsibly is the beer manufacturers's motto.

Social mores change

https://imgur.com/NrTptP4

I agree Laverfan a lot of people are using performance enhancing drugs in their day to day lives. I don't know what the answer is but I am just tired of all this silly innuendo and witch trials. I mean drugs enhance regular natural human performance other than pleasure there is no other reason to take drugs.

hawkeye wrote: It talks about Britain playing Spain in the under 16 championship. It implies that Murray played Nadal in that championship. I've tried to find out if he did but couldn't track down what event this was, Do you know?

Please see... (notice the two teams, GBR and ESP).

http://old.tenniseurope.org/PDF/junior/Winter%20Cups/History/B16/2002.pdf

hawkeye wrote:

laverfan wrote:Lest HE forget, Murray trained in Spain under Sanchez for two years.

Murray became frustrated when he realised that he was losing ground, in particular to Rafa Nadal, less than a year older than him. "Suddenly they were getting bigger and stronger, and he didn't like that," Judy says. "He played for Britain in the under-16 championship and they played Spain in the final. After the final was over he went off and played racketball with Nadal, and he came on the phone afterwards and said, 'I've just played racketball with Rafa and do you know what? He trains with Carlos Moya [then the world number one]. Who have I got to play with - you and my brother! Rrararar!' I was on the phone, thinking, 'Great' because it was all coming from him that I'm not doing enough, and he went, 'I wanna go and train in Spain!'"
....
The biggest problem back then was stamina - he didn't have the strength and he hadn't put in enough hours. Sánchez says Murray grew as a player in his two years in Spain, and has been impressed by the progress he has made since he left.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/jun/09/tennis.features

In 2002 age 15, Andy Murray left Britain to attend Academia Sanchez‐Casal where he trained for the next two‐and‐a‐half years, before going on to win the 2005 US Open junior title and then turning professional.

http://www.soyouwanttowinwimbledon.com/TG%20SANCHEZ-CASAL%20DOC%201.pdf

I found that Guardian article interview interseting laverfan. It talks about Britain playing Spain in the under 16 championship. It implies that Murray played Nadal in that championship. I've tried to find out if he did but couldn't track down what event this was, Do you know? I think from the article it was before Murray moved to Spain so he was 14? And Rafa would have been 15? I've always had doubt about the connections that Murray (and never Nadal) says he has with Nadal from an early age. Murray was 15 (+?) when he moved to Spain speaking I presume no Spanish. Nadal was barely a year older but didn't train at an academy and barely at that time spoke any English. He was also a little bit further in his career as he turned pro in 2001 when he was barely 16 (at the same time that Murray attended the academy in Spain). The idea put about (by Murray) that they were in any way "friends" at this time doesn't quite add up. It may have been useful at the time (for Murray) to play up such connections.

Are you being serious? You think Murray is lying about knowing Rafa as a kid to gain benefits?

Oh... My.... God!!

socal1976 wrote:I agree Laverfan a lot of people are using performance enhancing drugs in their day to day lives. I don't know what the answer is but I am just tired of all this silly innuendo and witch trials. I mean drugs enhance regular natural human performance other than pleasure there is no other reason to take drugs.

Medical studies under a scientific umbrella can establish what drugs can enhance athletic abilities outside normal tolerances.

Daily medical assistance vs. EPO becomes a more technical debate and morality then gets included in such.

I agree that a witch hunt is overkill, but a regular regimen of classified enhancements being tested for, would restore faith in many a sport.

Danny_1982 wrote:Are you being serious? You think Murray is lying about knowing Rafa as a kid to gain benefits?

Oh... My.... God!!

Let us approach this logically, Danny. I am quite willing to defend Murray using documented facts. HE has a right to be skeptical, but hopefully I can turn her skepticism into a tacit agreement that Murray and Nadal have known each other since Junior days.

Danny, Nadal is so super special that knowing him as a child can have residual positive affects for a player and a human being. He is like the baby jesus and Andy just wishes he was lucky enough to be Rafa's little drummer boy.

LF - I admire your quest, but I'm pretty sure it will be a fruitless one. Sometimes you've just got to laugh.

Socal - If I make up that I was also friends with a 16 year old Rafa, do I get superpowers too?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Spanish authorities seem to determined to make every one of their sports look guilty as hell.

I want to see tennis players like Nadal, Ferrer and others, and football players in Spain, both foreigners like Ronaldo, Messi and Spaniards like Iniesta, Xavi, Villa, Sergio Ramos etc speaking out. Why don't the innocent call for the bags to be released? Continued silence from Spanish politicians as well.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/02/nadal-operation-puerto-doctor-should-name-names/46334/

They kind of have

True, I know about this, and I as I have said in the past Nadal's call for Fuertes to provide names works in his favour and could mean he is innocent. (Of course, it could also mean he gets what he needs elsewhere or already knows Fuentes won't release the names.) I wonder if he will call for the bags not to be destroyed though? Shouldn't he do so? It is a separate questions. Fuentes lips may be sealed forever more, let's see the bags.

But why is there even less focus in the football media? You don't see footballers speaking out at all. Is there any history of Spanish football players commenting on doping that wasn't reported in the English press?

Barcelona just lost 7-0 on aggregate. Maybe they decided to tank this one as it was starting to look suspicious. Just kidding.

No one seems to care about doping in team sports. Thats a fact!

HB - or maybe Barca stopped taking the good stuff, hence the result?

I'm joking of course. But I fear we'll never know the names of the sports stars in question.

laverfan wrote:

hawkeye wrote: It talks about Britain playing Spain in the under 16 championship. It implies that Murray played Nadal in that championship. I've tried to find out if he did but couldn't track down what event this was, Do you know?

Please see... (notice the two teams, GBR and ESP).

http://old.tenniseurope.org/PDF/junior/Winter%20Cups/History/B16/2002.pdf

Wow! That's interesting. So they did play. It's also interesting how few juniors make it throught to pro level. The only names I recognise apart from Nadal and Murray are Jamie Baker and Marcel Granollers.

I'm not saying that Murray and Nadal didn't know of each other. Murray must have been well aware of Nadal as he was barely a year older and already extremely successful. But that's not quite whats implied. It's implied that they were friends. Sorry unless someone can provide evidence I think that's "baloney" (they didn't even speak the same language). Very convenient baloney as far as promoting Murray goes. Anyway I'm not sure he had time to be best friends with Rafa because from what I've read he was too busy being best friends with Novak. Articles prior to Wimbledon last year implied that Andy and Novak were as close as brothers growing up. Ha ha!

it gets better...

@HE...

Andy won the Orange Bowl Championships in Florida at 12. Two years later, he played for Britain in the finals of the Under-16 Championships against Spain. There, he met a young Spaniard named Rafael Nadal, who regaled him with stories of outdoor tennis played year-round on red-clay courts against Tour players like Carlos Moya. Andy returned, indignant, to his mother in Dunblane: "How am I supposed to get better just hitting inside with you?" Judy agreed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3726728

Do I have to look for photographs of Murray/Nadal partying in Mallorca or Barcelona, next?