Fuentes - evidence of wider offences destroyed?

First topic message reminder :

I'm shocked hear that Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria has ordered evidence in the form of blood samples that could have pointed to a broader event than cycling to be destroyed.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

This just sounds perverse and does nothing to dispell concerns of wilder involvement. Still, when one thinks of what's been suggested in terms of Olympians etc, and suspicions of the integrity of the Spanish authorities, it isn't completely surprising to me. Regrettable though.

But that's a story spread by Murray, hence HE won't accept it as proof...

socal1976 wrote:I agree Laverfan a lot of people are using performance enhancing drugs in their day to day lives. I don't know what the answer is but I am just tired of all this silly innuendo and witch trials. I mean drugs enhance regular natural human performance other than pleasure there is no other reason to take drugs.

Do you honestly think there is no other reason to take peds? You are talking about peds right?

laverfan wrote:@HE...

Andy won the Orange Bowl Championships in Florida at 12. Two years later, he played for Britain in the finals of the Under-16 Championships against Spain. There, he met a young Spaniard named Rafael Nadal, who regaled him with stories of outdoor tennis played year-round on red-clay courts against Tour players like Carlos Moya. Andy returned, indignant, to his mother in Dunblane: "How am I supposed to get better just hitting inside with you?" Judy agreed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3726728

Do I have to look for photographs of Murray/Nadal partying in Mallorca or Barcelona, next?

Sorry that doesn't convince me at all... In fact it does the opposite. In March 2002 Murray was 14 and had yet to move to Spain. Someone told me here on606v2 that he was yet to even choose tennis as a career as he was offered a contract with a football club when he was 15 (Rangers?). Nadal had turned pro in 2001 and was already playing a fairly full calender of future tournaments. I doubt that Murray spoke Spanish and I also doubt that Nadal spoke much English. They were moving in completely different areas and yet we are told that Rafa "regaled" Murray with stories of outdoor tennis on red clay. Pfft! Did they do it by a bonfire whilst drinking lashings of ginger beer? I may be inclined to think there was more in it if last year when it was Novak who was the flavour of the month with the British media and not Rafa there hadn't been all the stories about Murray and Novak being so close they were practically brothers growing up. Pfft! You lot believe anything...

Andy Murray's journey to becoming the first British Wimbledon finalist since 1938 might never have occurred but for a chance post-match conversation with a talented Spanish 15-year-old back in 2001. Murray, then aged 14, had been playing in Andorra in an international junior tournament and was passing time with a Spanish competitor. As the teenagers chatted, the two compared training regimes. 'This guy was telling me he practised with people like Carlos Moya, who had been world No 1,' said Murray.
...
Rejecting an opportunity from the LTA to train at Queen's Club, Murray, then 15, left his Dunblane home and embarked on a new life at the academy.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2170261/Wimbledon-2012-The-day-Rafa-Nadal-set-Andy-Murray-road-stardom.html#ixzz2S5Be3fKW

Andy was invited for trials at Rangers FC, but to the surprise of envious friends declined, preferring to concentrate on his tennis. But until they were in their mid-teens, Jamie was considered a more promising player. Andy began playing in his local men’s league at just eight (precociously advising his doubles partner, an architect in his 50s, to stand closer to the net) and at 14 he won the national junior championships. But the decision that set him on the path to greatness came in 2002, after he lost to a youthful Rafael Nadal in an international junior tournament, and the Majorcan boy later told him how he was able to practise for four and a half hours each day, often with top players, because he lived in a warm country with long evenings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2201853/Andy-Murray-super-brat-superhero.html#ixzz2S5CqazdA

Does this help your timeline issue?

LuvSports! wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I agree Laverfan a lot of people are using performance enhancing drugs in their day to day lives. I don't know what the answer is but I am just tired of all this silly innuendo and witch trials. I mean drugs enhance regular natural human performance other than pleasure there is no other reason to take drugs.

Do you honestly think there is no other reason to take peds? You are talking about peds right?

No you miss the point entirely all non-recreational drugs are PEDS one way or the other from coffee to steroids.

Danny_1982 wrote:LF - I admire your quest, but I'm pretty sure it will be a fruitless one. Sometimes you've just got to laugh.

Socal - If I make up that I was also friends with a 16 year old Rafa, do I get superpowers too?

No but the ladies will like you more, I heard that Andy's pickup line to Kim was "you know as a lad I knew Rafa, so do you want to catch a night cap?"

I

kingraf wrote:No one seems to care about doping in team sports. Thats a fact!

I don't care about doping in any sports. I just think they are all doping and it frees my mind to actually enjoy the entertainment value of the sport and not get caught up in lame witch trials and cloak and dagger nonsense. You guys do realize that we are watching grown men hit a fuzzy, rubberized tennis ball and whether one or the others urine is clean or not has little or no impact on the fate of the planet? I just don't care anymore, let them all use their arses like pin cushions, I love a good cheeseburger but if you took me to a slaughter house and meat packing plant I might vomit and swear off meat.

Morpheus Ill take the blue pill please, have fun on your crappy little spaceship?

laverfan wrote:Andy Murray's journey to becoming the first British Wimbledon finalist since 1938 might never have occurred but for a chance post-match conversation with a talented Spanish 15-year-old back in 2001. Murray, then aged 14, had been playing in Andorra in an international junior tournament and was passing time with a Spanish competitor. As the teenagers chatted, the two compared training regimes. 'This guy was telling me he practised with people like Carlos Moya, who had been world No 1,' said Murray.
...
Rejecting an opportunity from the LTA to train at Queen's Club, Murray, then 15, left his Dunblane home and embarked on a new life at the academy.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2170261/Wimbledon-2012-The-day-Rafa-Nadal-set-Andy-Murray-road-stardom.html#ixzz2S5Be3fKW

Andy was invited for trials at Rangers FC, but to the surprise of envious friends declined, preferring to concentrate on his tennis. But until they were in their mid-teens, Jamie was considered a more promising player. Andy began playing in his local men’s league at just eight (precociously advising his doubles partner, an architect in his 50s, to stand closer to the net) and at 14 he won the national junior championships. But the decision that set him on the path to greatness came in 2002, after he lost to a youthful Rafael Nadal in an international junior tournament, and the Majorcan boy later told him how he was able to practise for four and a half hours each day, often with top players, because he lived in a warm country with long evenings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2201853/Andy-Murray-super-brat-superhero.html#ixzz2S5CqazdA

Does this help your timeline issue?

Thank you for the research. But I'm sorry I remain unconvinced. Not unconvinced that Murray knew of Nadal. I'm sure he did. Nadal was an exceptional contemporary. He might have even drawn inspiration from him... I'm sure many have. But I'm unconvinced they were in any way "friends". It makes a good story for the British Media. To convince me what I need is some quote from Nadal saying something similar about Murray. But if you can find a photo of them both out partying in Majorca that would do to I would be quite interested in photos of the young Andy and Novak partying in Serbia as well... Not to mention young Andy and Del Potro. I bet Roger is quite relieved he is too old to have to pretend to be Andy's best Buddie too.

It does not look good though who knows how much discretion the judge has under Spanish law. I am no legal expert but from what I know:

- doping was legal in Spain at that time, so legally there would be no wrongdoing anyway

- doctor/patient confidentiality could perhaps be considered to be violated if the samples were made available, and given that nothing illegal was being done, it may not be so easy to do so

That said, I do not know how the legal rules work so it may well be that the judge had option to make samples available. If that is the case, then her decision is extremely disappointing.

On the general topic of doping, my personal feeling (admittedly with no evidence other than what we know of past doping cases in various sports, and based on my general take on how life works) is that doping is likely far more prevalent than most people expect.

A few months ago I asked posters here how many players out of ATP 100 they expected to be doping and typical response was in the 10-15 range (with one zero included). My personal hunch would be more like 70-80. Who knows, maybe I am just being cynical, but the 10-15 strikes me as very optimistic.

If it is 70-80 out of the top 100 or anything approaching that number do we really want to know, I know I don't. I also don't believe that number is anywhere approaching that I think it is close to the 10-15 number.

My father owns a factory in Iran from many years ago, and one day he decided to do drug testing. Iran has a huge drug problem as there are many hopeless youth, alcohol is expensive and drugs are dirt cheap. He tested a sample group of 20 of his workers of the 20 that he tested 12 came back positive. Instead of firing his workers, he just disbanded the drug policy. Really had no other choice. If it is anything approaching the numbers you claim summerblues, I don't want to know.

But honestly I think tennis of the major sports is pretty clean. I think the real number is probably lower than even 10 or 15 percent of the top 100.

I would also think tennis, of the major sports, is clean. in recent history, only Nadal and Djokovic have been victorious playing back to back five setters in tournament semis & finals, and that was in Australia (i.e at the beginning of the season). Countless guys ranked sub-40 are physically finished playing vs Nadal/Djoko, so if they are on the juice, they need to check its expiration date.

summerblues wrote:On the general topic of doping, my personal feeling (admittedly with no evidence other than what we know of past doping cases in various sports, and based on my general take on how life works) is that doping is likely far more prevalent than most people expect.

A few months ago I asked posters here how many players out of ATP 100 they expected to be doping and typical response was in the 10-15 range (with one zero included). My personal hunch would be more like 70-80. Who knows, maybe I am just being cynical, but the 10-15 strikes me as very optimistic.

I would be very surprised if it was anywhere near that level - which would be basically the same sort of levels as cycling was. First, there isn't such an obvious gain to be made in a technical sport. More importantly, there are not teams to lead tennis players down that path (apart from a couple of countries who have big tennis squads). It's also hardly the type of thing which would be discussed in the locker room. It would therefore require 80 odd individual decisions to dope and I just don't see that as at all likely. I'd be surprised if it is more than ten.

The decision can be appealed, and I think I have read that it will be. This is a crucial moment for the sagging credibility of Spanish sporting bodies and players/athletes who are Spanish or who work and train in Spain.

Courts should be above these sorts of considerations, but if this can seriously affect football thet would be absolutely huge. The money in football dwarfs every other sport - I expect that the best paid 10 in the Barcelona squad take more salary home on aggregate than the ATP top 10 win over a year.

I'd v. much like to see the Judge's decision translated into English, because the specific situation is probably more complex in terms of interlocking rights and so on than would seem obvious to us.

Even so, if those bags are destroyed and the wider results of Puerto and the other investigations are not investigated further with a view to catching cheating individuals and organisations, for me the burden of the doubt on Spanish sport shifts. If I am to believe that any sportsman or team is not cheating I'll need that to be conclusively proven against a default position of assumption of cheating.

The appeal, IMO, wont make a difference. Those bags and names on them will never see light of day for many reasons. Its a legal minefield given Spanish privacy laws, threats of lawsuits from anyone named who may actually be innocent - how can the contents or labelling of the bags be assumed to be irrefutably correct after 7 years, and the fact doping (bizarrely) was legal in Spain in 2006 when this case dates from. WADA may lay claim that Spanish law doesn't override global drug doping rules but I don't think they'll be able to override the privacy (human right) laws. I cant see a whistleblower coming forward as the broader sports involved are very different from cycling. It could perhaps eventually go as far as the European Human Rights courts but I would think the privacy/confidentiality rule would be upheld given the original circumstances. As mentioned, defence council may also argue from technical point of view how sound are the blood bags as evidence given 7 years has passed and any number of people could have had access to them. This doesn't mean any of this is right, that fingers wont be pointed at Spain for a long time and Spanish individuals tarred but I just don't see there's going to be enough jurisdiction and/or internal Spanish will to get those bags/names into the open.

Is Bill Roache in them?

You'd have to ask Michael Le Vell?

Or The Hairy Cornflake.

hawkeye wrote:Thank you for the research. But I'm sorry I remain unconvinced. Not unconvinced that Murray knew of Nadal. I'm sure he did.

I am surprised that a Nadal-Murray friendship irks you so much that you are willing to deny the existence of such.

hawkeye wrote:Nadal was an exceptional contemporary. He might have even drawn inspiration from him... I'm sure many have. But I'm unconvinced they were in any way "friends".

Contemporary to whom, HE? Murray, Djokovic, Federer, Soderling,...

hawkeye wrote:It makes a good story for the British Media. To convince me what I need is some quote from Nadal saying something similar about Murray. But if you can find a photo of them both out partying in Majorca that would do to I would be quite interested in photos of the young Andy and Novak partying in Serbia as well... Not to mention young Andy and Del Potro. I bet Roger is quite relieved he is too old to have to pretend to be Andy's best Buddie too.

Since you have the expertise re Fedal, perhaps Nadal's biography would help. Pretty certain you have read it thoroughly.

The blood bags are not the only evidence. This sort of an operation requires tracking to the nth degree to ensure no dangerous mix ups happen. Secondary records usually do exist.

Spanish judiciary is protecting itself, and Guardia, and many other organizations, from potential international exposure. The more this goes on, the harder it is to ignore that Spanish Sports is unwilling to be transparent about a shameful past.

CONI, UCI and many others have already asked and have been refused access to evidence.

Does Fuentes have a book/movies deal in the works?

They seem to be good friends from what I've seen, Nadal once said this:
"A lot of people believe that competition is like life. That's not how I see it. I love to win, I love the competition and I will try my best until the last moment but what happens away from the court is not going to affect what happens on the court. We can try our best on the court and when we are off it we can be close friends, because we are talking 10 minutes before the match. I always go with the good people, not with the bad people or arrogant people. I know Andy is not like this. He's a normal guy. He hasn't changed with all the victories. That's always a very positive thing for our sport, a positive example for all the kids and everybody. That's why I like him and that's why I wish him all the best."

In contrast Djokovic says he cant be friends with the other top 3:
"I can’t be friends with Andy, though. I really like the guy — but how can you go and be best friends with a guy who you know you are going to be doing battle with? It is true for myself, Roger, Rafa and now Andy. We like each other and there is mutual respect but common sense tells you we can’t be best friends and hang out. When we are all retired the four of us will go to a bar, drink too much beer and look back on all the great matches we’ve had. But, for now, we must keep a professional distance. I see us being very good friends in the future but the reason I can’t be friends with him now is a compliment. It means I now see him as a very real threat for this Grand Slam and many to come"

So right there you have contrasts in how Nadal and Djokovic see friendships with key rivals during their career. Nadal is able to switch off friendships once they hit the court, Djokovic doesn't engage friendship from the outset. I also find the part interesting where Nadal says "I always go with the good people, not with the bad people or arrogant people. I know Andy is not like this. He's a normal guy. He hasn't changed with all the victories." - I wonder if Nadal had anyone in mind with that reference or was it generic.

Makes no odds LF...I'm pretty certain those bags/names wont see light of day.

lydian wrote:Makes no odds LF...I'm pretty certain those bags/names wont see light of day.

Understood. This does leave a bad after-taste though.

hawkeye wrote:

laverfan wrote:@HE...

Andy won the Orange Bowl Championships in Florida at 12. Two years later, he played for Britain in the finals of the Under-16 Championships against Spain. There, he met a young Spaniard named Rafael Nadal, who regaled him with stories of outdoor tennis played year-round on red-clay courts against Tour players like Carlos Moya. Andy returned, indignant, to his mother in Dunblane: "How am I supposed to get better just hitting inside with you?" Judy agreed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3726728

Do I have to look for photographs of Murray/Nadal partying in Mallorca or Barcelona, next?

Sorry that doesn't convince me at all... In fact it does the opposite. In March 2002 Murray was 14 and had yet to move to Spain. Someone told me here on606v2 that he was yet to even choose tennis as a career as he was offered a contract with a football club when he was 15 (Rangers?). Nadal had turned pro in 2001 and was already playing a fairly full calender of future tournaments. I doubt that Murray spoke Spanish and I also doubt that Nadal spoke much English. They were moving in completely different areas and yet we are told that Rafa "regaled" Murray with stories of outdoor tennis on red clay. Pfft! Did they do it by a bonfire whilst drinking lashings of ginger beer? I may be inclined to think there was more in it if last year when it was Novak who was the flavour of the month with the British media and not Rafa there hadn't been all the stories about Murray and Novak being so close they were practically brothers growing up. Pfft! You lot believe anything...

Nadal only started to really play Futures later in 2002 - he had played 2 events in 2001. He was still primarily playing juniors. I would be intrigued to know the circumstances in which they went to play racquetball after the match - you would have thought there would be coaching teams/parents around etc. Maybe it was an agreed social event after the final. Nadal must have been able to communicate in English to some degree - as Murray definitely couldn't speak Spanish. Whilst it does appear unlikely they were BFFs, I take it even you accept it would be a very odd for Murray to completely make up a game of racquetball?

Andy Murray admitted that current world No. 1 Rafael Nadal had a big influence on his tennis development. Meeting the Spaniard during his junior days, Murray confessed that if it was not for the Spaniard’s training habits, he may not have become the player that he was today.

“Some of you probably know that Nadal and I have been competitors and good friends since our teenage years, but you may not realise he was a major influence in my decision to leave home at 15 to move to Spain [to train at the Sanchez-Casal Academy in Barcelona]. We were part of a group of guys playing racquetball. I was asking all the guys in this group who they were practising with and when Nadal said Carlos Moya, it was a big wake-up call. I realised I was not doing enough and knew I had to move.

“As well as helping me become a tennis player, I also met my two best friends there, one from Peru and the other from Venezuela. Dani travels with me as my hitting partner and is a very good player. Given this, you would think I’d be able to speak Spanish well. Sadly, it’s pretty ropey. I understand quite a lot when people are speaking but the problem was everyone spoke English there, because it was an international academy. So while I tried to speak to my friends in Spanish, they would reply in English, so I didn’t learn as much as I would have liked.”

http://tennisconnected.com/home/2011/01/22/murray-lends-career-success-to-nadal/

Andy Murray revealed how a chance conversation with Rafael Nadal while he was still in his teens put him on the road to tennis stardom.

Murray said Nadal's comments, over a game of racquetball during a junior competition, prompted him to leave home and move to a Spanish tennis academy aged just 15.

"I was asking all the guys in this group who they were practising with and when Nadal said Carlos Moya, it was a big wake-up call. Back home, because we never had the opportunity to play sport in school... I could only practise for 90 minutes, four days a week with my coach. Yet here was a rival hitting with one of the world's best players and training four or five hours a day for five days a week. I realised I was not doing enough and knew I had to move."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Murray+says+Nadal+chat+put+him+on+track-a01612414766

The implication is they spoke and knew each other pre-senior tour. Given Murray cant speak Spanish clearly Nadal could probably speak some English.

I like this story of Murray's single-minded determination to succeed connected to the above story:

As Murray became one of the best juniors in Great Britain, he was reluctant to leave Scotland because his brother had been unhappy training in England. Then he had a pivotal conversation with Rafael Nadal. The two teenagers, playing at the European junior 16-and-under team championships, became fast friends (Spain won). And they played racquetball.

"He phoned and he said, 'I've just been playing racquetball with Rafa, and you know what he was telling me?' " says Ms. Murray, who still teaches children at Stirling and is the coach of the British Federation Cup team. " 'He trains with Carlos Moya, he doesn't go to school, he plays X hours a day, he does this, he's training on clay, hrrr, hrrr, hrrr, hrrr. And what've I got? I'm playing with you and my brother at university!' " Ms. Murray says she overlooked the teenage rant and was delighted by her son's desire to improve. "We were running out of options for him."

Murray eventually enrolled in the Sánchez-Casal Academy in Barcelona, when he was 15. He had played a practice match against Emilio Sánchez Vicario, a retired pro, as a tryout; when it was over and his mother asked him how it went, Murray said nothing and walked to the showers. Sánchez then explained how the young Murray had taken him apart. "He said, 'It took him six games to work me out and that was it—he's got something,' " Ms. Murray recalls.

Murray obsesses over tactics and his opponent's tendencies. As a boy, he played mostly older, stronger kids and adults, and beat them by "messing them around," as his mother puts it. At 16, he had to stop training for six months after he discovered that he was born with a bipartite patella (his right knee didn't fuse and is held together by bony cartilage; he manages it through conditioning). Unable to play tennis, Murray studied it on television and scratched meticulous notes in a notebook.

"I'd be making the tea and he'd be going, 'This is what I would do if I was playing Safin, I would do this and I would do this,' " Ms. Murray says. "He spent so much time just watching the top players."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304636404577291470637871782.html

Nadal does come off as incredibly nice, and seems to help pros out with their games more than most sportsmen, he seems to want players to be at their best, so he can see where he matches up.

Lydian; the "messing them around" was what you mentioned the other day. The only time he's used that capability in recent years was to cope with the wind at the USO in 2012. Worked ok then.

You could probably point to Wimbledon 2008 as the day 'messing them around', as a primary tactic, died

Yep, "messing them around" saw him rise in this way...

1st ATP Match - April 18, 2005 - 17y 11m 3d
Top 100 - October 3, 2005 - 18y 4m 18d
Top 50 - February 20, 2006 - 18y 9m 5d
Top 25 - August 14, 2006 - 19y 2m 30d
Top 10 - April 16, 2007 - 19y 11m 1d
Top 4 - September 8, 2008 - 21y 3m 24d

It was always his go-to tactic, move guys around, junkball them, mix it up at baseline and net...basically drive them mad. The guile/bamboozle approach seemed to work pretty well from Apr 05 to Sep 08.

lydian wrote:Andy Murray revealed how a chance conversation with Rafael Nadal while he was still in his teens put him on the road to tennis stardom.

Murray said Nadal's comments, over a game of racquetball during a junior competition, prompted him to leave home and move to a Spanish tennis academy aged just 15.

"I was asking all the guys in this group who they were practising with and when Nadal said Carlos Moya, it was a big wake-up call. Back home, because we never had the opportunity to play sport in school... I could only practise for 90 minutes, four days a week with my coach. Yet here was a rival hitting with one of the world's best players and training four or five hours a day for five days a week. I realised I was not doing enough and knew I had to move."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Murray+says+Nadal+chat+put+him+on+track-a01612414766

The implication is they spoke and knew each other pre-senior tour. Given Murray cant speak Spanish clearly Nadal could probably speak some English.

If Murray say's that Nadal was a big influence then no doubt he was. But that's not really whats implied. It's implied that they were great buddies growing up. Even you quotes here don't give the impression they had more than a passing meeting. A chance comment by Nadal whilst in a group with several others about who they train with might have been influential but it is hardly any indication of a friendship. I bet Nadal was boasting to the others. My practice partner is a slam holding number one. Ha ha! Not every day I bet...

I'm not sure Murray was good at recognizing the positive things about his own situation. His mum was a tennis coach and he had an older brother who could hit the ball a bit. Did he only play for 90 minutes 4 times a week when he was 14/15? It makes you wonder why he didn't play more. I wouldn't have expected him to play much tennis in school. The reality was he was in a similar position to Nadal (minus the occasional hit with a friendly number 1) as he had a family member who could coach. Also he didn't copy Nadal anyway. In fact he did the opposite. He went from a similar situation to Nadal (staying in school, living at home and fitting tennis round that) to living in an academy. Nadal or his parents I believe refused offers from tennis academies and chose to keep him at home.

In some of the articles quoted Murray sounds exactly like he does today...

l

laverfan wrote:

I am surprised that a Nadal-Murray friendship irks you so much that you are willing to deny the existence of such.

Because there is no evidence that they were "friends" growing up. I'm sure there are a lot of contemporaries of Nadal will now in hindsight have memories of him. Don't you think it strange that there are so many stories from Murray's side implying they were friends at a young age and not one single thing from Nadal? I do get irked when I'm fed rubbish from the media and think it odd that so many lap it up even when it doesn't add up.

kingraf wrote:I would also think tennis, of the major sports, is clean. in recent history, only Nadal and Djokovic have been victorious playing back to back five setters in tournament semis & finals, and that was in Australia (i.e at the beginning of the season). Countless guys ranked sub-40 are physically finished playing vs Nadal/Djoko, so if they are on the juice, they need to check its expiration date.

I agree, people overblown the impact of fitness in most tennis matches, yes it is important but look at Tsonga or Del Po, I don't think any of these two could ever run a marathon, Tsonga at times looks a bit portly, Nalbandian was waistline challenged and famously so and all these guys were consistent top ten players. It is an advantage being very fit but in no way does it determine the outcome of as many matches as people give it credit for. Nadal and Djoko as fit as they are win most of their matches easily from the opening bell, that comes from how well they hit a ball and execute consistently and little to do with cardiovascular fitness. Don't get me wrong it is important but the fitness levels required are in no way prohibitive to an athletic young person.

The key thing is length of ralleys socal. If you're constantly playing 10+ strokes per ralley then over 5 sets you're going to need to be really fit. If you tend to keep points shorter then on balance across a whole event you'll be on court less. Tsonga and Nalby are aggressive players who keep points shorter, they don't have to be as fit...until they want to push on to become top 4/5. That's the dividing line...anything above top 6 position now requires unreal fitness, at 6 and below you can get through 5 set matches, keep a high ranking by playing a different way.

HE...I'm not suggesting they were friends growing up. Clearly they came together in than EU Team sport event when they were 14-15 years old. They will have knocked about abit at that event and then known each other afterwards I suspect once Murray moved to Barcelona - ok, Nadal didn't train there but I'm sure he was a frequent visitor, so they will have seen quite a lot of each other. From these early days Murray clearly put Nadal up on a pedestal...and you can see his H2H vs Nadal is much worse than vs Fed or Djokovic. Its either down to sheer difficulty in playing Nadal or/and Murray having a mental issue when facing him due to those early days, etc.

Yes, Lydian you have to be tremendously fit but do you have to be fitter than marathon runners, triathletes, and cyclists. My point is that the fitness levels aren't such that a normal, healthy, and clean young athlete can not attain. And as you posted in your post, the dividing line is a tough 5 set match late in a slam. That is where fitness can play an integral role. But lets take even Tsonga, who has never struck me as a super fit guy with a lot of off court work. Did he lose that match at RG to Djoko where he held matchpoint because of fitness or did he just choke? I would posit that he choked and it wasn't because he lost his legs or his wind.

Federer made a statement a while ago (Cincy post-match interview with Fowler/Cahill, IIRC) about being more 'reluctant' to play with Chiudinelli than the other top guys. Will try to find the video.

Here it is (8:15+)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X00C0LuOpbg

google 'djokovic fitness' and espn ask if he is the fittest athlete ever
http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/8132800/has-novak-djokovic-become-fittest-athlete-ever-espn-magazine

Maybe not, but clearly you have to be right up there when compared to other athletes. Once someone sets the bar e.g. Lendl, others have no choice but to keep upping it.

tennis fitness, is a very difficult thing to explain. I remember during the WTF's it showed that Djokovic barely covered 2km in a match, but when most of it is at full tilt, changing directions, and putting vooma into forehands its serious work.

JuliusHMarx wrote:google 'djokovic fitness' and espn ask if he is the fittest athlete ever
http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/8132800/has-novak-djokovic-become-fittest-athlete-ever-espn-magazine

Maybe not, but clearly you have to be right up there when compared to other athletes. Once someone sets the bar e.g. Lendl, others have no choice but to keep upping it.

Espn is the godfather of all hyperbole, the statement on its face is pretty ludicrous, how on earth would you know if Djokovic is the fittest athlete ever, what factual way is there to tell. Don't get me wrong, the intensity of top level tennis and chasing down shots hit with that kind of pace, precision, and consistency is a world different than what we do down at the club. Every step up in quality also is a step up in fitness. But if you are looking at raw calories burned in a five set match, even the most grueling around it is not even close to the endurance sports. Djoko v. Nadal at the AO the two guys probably burned about 8000-10,000 calories, that is a crap load but nothing like doing a triathalon. I mean my friend a the club who is a big guy has one of those wrist bands and after we hit for 2 hours has one of those wristbands that measure your caloric intake and he ranges from 1200-1500 for two hours of hitting. Plus the guy weighs well over 200 pounds and is 6 foot 2. So even assuming much higher intensity levels of rallies it still doesn't approach tour de france or triathalon status.

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:google 'djokovic fitness' and espn ask if he is the fittest athlete ever
http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/8132800/has-novak-djokovic-become-fittest-athlete-ever-espn-magazine

Maybe not, but clearly you have to be right up there when compared to other athletes. Once someone sets the bar e.g. Lendl, others have no choice but to keep upping it.

Espn is the godfather of all hyperbole...

I thought that was you

socal, tdf riders will burn that many calories each day, do triathletes burn that more more calories than tdf riders?

I would think so (might be completely wrong, of course),
Five Kilo metre swim
180 km cyle
42.2 km run is brutal,

Ive messed around with a lot of sports, but that was definitely something I didnt want to look at

socal1976 wrote:Espn is the godfather of all hyperbole, the statement on its face is pretty ludicrous, how on earth would you know if Djokovic is the fittest athlete ever, what factual way is there to tell.

The same ESPN with the draw-fixing study at USO with 10-year data?

LuvSports! wrote:socal, tdf riders will burn that many calories each day, do triathletes burn that more more calories than tdf riders?

Yes and they do it for 3 weeks every day, now tennis has more strain on the joints but I can't see the fitness hurdle being prohibitive to someone who wants to do the work and is young. That is the point fitness is important but while the fitness requirements for tennis players are among are high they don't determine a large majority of the matches. Certainly, player's breakdown fitness wise and lose matches over their career, but for most players it isn't what separates a slam champion from a top 40 or 50 guy. The fitness requirements are more than in the past, but not in line with cyclists and triathletes.

laverfan wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Espn is the godfather of all hyperbole, the statement on its face is pretty ludicrous, how on earth would you know if Djokovic is the fittest athlete ever, what factual way is there to tell.

The same ESPN with the draw-fixing study at USO with 10-year data?

That is different because there was actual statistical analysis how do they prove Djokovic is the fittest athlete of all time. What statistical or objective evidence do they use?

I'd be very interested in what empirical methodology researchers are using to investigate. socal's right, comparing across sports is surely almost impossible due to the specificity involved. Even triathlon to distance running is hard enough to measure, let alone sports that are massively different.

kingraf wrote:I would think so (might be completely wrong, of course),
Five Kilo metre swim
180 km cyle
42.2 km run is brutal,

Ive messed around with a lot of sports, but that was definitely something I didnt want to look at

Like you say kingraf, an Iron Man takes the cake! Of course, we could talk about 100M ultramarathons too, whilst there's no tennis equivalent - unless you count the 2012 AO final in fairness, standard triathlons aren't as bad - 1500m swim, 40k cycle and 10k run.

It's tough to assess because people rarely ever compete at the absolute highest level of more than one sport, and even then certainly not a combination of triathlon and tennis. So we can't take sport specific training into account. From my experience as an amateur tennis player, distance runner and novice triathlete, I'd say that triathlon is the hardest to train for. But a long tennis match takes more out of me, presumably due to my build and other factors. Distance running is by far the easiest of the trio for me, but to others it'd be tougher than tennis. And none of that even matters, 'cos I'm just one person who's far down the rung of sporting excellence compared to the professionals. They're leagues away from us amateurs.

kingraf wrote:I would think so (might be completely wrong, of course),
Five Kilo metre swim
180 km cyle
42.2 km run is brutal,

Ive messed around with a lot of sports, but that was definitely something I didnt want to look at

Ive just saved a lot of time by reading silver's post and not typing out the ironman/triathlon ting

Well Silver you make some good points, nobody is questioning that world class tennis is extremely physical. But I find this Djokovic as the fittest athlete in the world stuff to be a bit specious. Especially in light of people who run a marathon, swim, and bike all in the same day. Ironman contestants spend 9-12 hours doing constant cardio with no changeovers, no breaks between sets, and no time between points. Yes tennis players are at times during points at full sprint and move more dynamically in short bursts. But if we want to measure just cardiovascular fitness all the thousands of people who show up at ironman's and marathons are fitter than Djokovic and Nadal by a great deal. So I don't see the big advantage of blood doping in tennis that I would see in triathlons or cycling. Especially, in light of the fact that most matches Nadal and Djoko play all year round are decided in exactly two sets and under two hours. The grandslam epic might take place once or twice a year, at tops 4 or 5 times a year.