Fuentes - evidence of wider offences destroyed?

First topic message reminder :

I'm shocked hear that Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria has ordered evidence in the form of blood samples that could have pointed to a broader event than cycling to be destroyed.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

This just sounds perverse and does nothing to dispell concerns of wilder involvement. Still, when one thinks of what's been suggested in terms of Olympians etc, and suspicions of the integrity of the Spanish authorities, it isn't completely surprising to me. Regrettable though.

laverfan wrote:

Someone, a wise-person I know, says, that when one points a finger at someone else, there are three pointing back at themselves.

I, personally, dislike the idea of suspecting one and not another.

That's why it didn't fit well when Murray volunteered his outrage about a drug trial. Waving his finger and pointing elsewhere. By participating in pro sport he is under as much suspicion as any other player who hasn't been proved guilty. He is not and can't be outside suspicion and shouldn't act like he is. If a player is asked his opinion he of course has to give it. But I don't see the point of harassing innocent players for their views. They will all say the same thing. For anyone with an interest (or an obsession) with catching drug cheats the focus should be testing and ensuring the testing stays ahead of the game. Not getting the players to vouch for their innocence and throw suspicion elsewhere as a deflection.

hawkeye wrote:

laverfan wrote:

Someone, a wise-person I know, says, that when one points a finger at someone else, there are three pointing back at themselves.

I, personally, dislike the idea of suspecting one and not another.

That's why it didn't fit well when Murray volunteered his outrage about a drug trial. Waving his finger and pointing elsewhere. By participating in pro sport he is under as much suspicion as any other player who hasn't been proved guilty. He is not and can't be outside suspicion and shouldn't act like he is. If a player is asked his opinion he of course has to give it. But I don't see the point of harassing innocent players for their views. They will all say the same thing. For anyone with an interest (or an obsession) with catching drug cheats the focus should be testing and ensuring the testing stays ahead of the game. Not getting the players to vouch for their innocence and throw suspicion elsewhere as a deflection.

What nonsense. If there is evidence available which would enable drug cheats to be caught, then anyone with an interest in catching drug cheats would want that evidence revealed. Murray obviously knows himself whether he takes drugs and can act as innocent as he likes. I'm also intrigued to know who you think he pointed the finger at - I don't recall him mentioning any names.

@BS... Murray and Nadal have both suggested that the names associated with Fuentes should be made public.

laverfan wrote:@BS... Murray and Nadal have both suggested that the names associated with Fuentes should be made public.

So they have.

Let's see the legalities play out because they will need following carefully. As Lydian and I have suggested there are likely to be complex interlocking rights (Lydian mentioned privacy rights) which mean that it's not a straightforward issue for the Courts as to whether they want to expose cheats or not. In the above scenario it is whoever has the 'privacy' or other rights and is insisting on them who will be responsible for the attempts to block disclosure. I'd very much like to know who such people/organisations are - if it is individual sports people their identities are likely to remain secret, it would be far more interesting if it is sports bodies. If it is the latter then enormous public pressure could be brought to bear on them by, say, a select group of Spanish sports stars highlighting how their own governing bodies are insisting on rights which are casting suspicion on them all - perhaps the likes of Alonso, Sergei Ramos, David Villa, Iniesta, Nadal, Ferrer, and Contador(?) could club together and make the process more interesting?

Even so, if it is sports bodies they may have a contractual duty to their membership at large which means they have to support rights which would block disclosure. Alternatively, there may have been a 'deal' pursuant to which the prosecutors were able to use the evidence requiring them to be destroyed.

Like Lydian I strongly suspect that there will not be disclosure - but I will want to know exactly why and, to as much detail as possible, who is opposing disclosure before the Courts so the power of embarrassment might start to work away.

It's not impossible if the above scenario is right that some people calling for disclosure also know damn well that it will never happen, so that they are getting a bit of risk-free kudos - we'll see.

The issue for me here is that, whilst doping was not illegal in Spain, it will have been illegal in whichever sporting field the athletes were competing in. Consequently, the argument that they have a right to privacy seems to me to be morally extremely weak. They will have known what they were doing was against the rules of their profession. However, legally, I suspect it probably stands up and won't be successfully overturned.

barrystar wrote:It's not impossible if the above scenario is right that some people calling for disclosure also know damn well that it will never happen, so that they are getting a bit of risk-free kudos - we'll see.

Hence a 'full' disclosure (name-and-shame) and appropriate defense is better, IMVHO.

Born Slippy wrote:The issue for me here is that, whilst doping was not illegal in Spain, it will have been illegal in whichever sporting field the athletes were competing in. Consequently, the argument that they have a right to privacy seems to me to be morally extremely weak. They will have known what they were doing was against the rules of their profession. However, legally, I suspect it probably stands up and won't be successfully overturned.

I had even suggested stripping the country of Spain from all it's trophies and prizes during the alleged period as far as international competition is concerned. The moment an athlete steps into an international competition, governing laws of that specific international authority override national legal boundaries.

If an athlete was doping in Spain for X period, did that athlete get rid of the gains from such, when stepping into an international competition?

But would it be "name & shame" or "name & claim"?

i.e. a raft of lawsuits are pursued by those athletes wrongly named, or named but completely innocent.

What a missed opportunity for Spanish authorities to improve the name and image of their sport. This will just leave clouds of speculation over any successful Spanish athlete.

lydian wrote:But would it be "name & shame" or "name & claim"?

i.e. a raft of lawsuits are pursued by those athletes wrongly named, or named but completely innocent.

Why not just ignores Fuentes' names and release the evidence of the blood bags themselves?

Some big names were probably implicated otherwise why not just release the list.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Some big names were probably implicated otherwise why not just release the list.

Because footballers don't dope

dummy_half wrote:

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Some big names were probably implicated otherwise why not just release the list.

Because footballers don't dope

After reading the link provided by (?Lydian) a few days ago about the history of doping in football I'm starting to think it's probably endemic at the top level.

It's so depressing. Unlike some people I'm not for drug amnesties or for burying our heads in the sand. I want them CAUGHT. Those dirty, filthy, cheating, scumbags. I hates them, I hates them.

Clearly the governing bodies of international sport are not interested in making making a concerted effort to catch the cheats. No governing body wants the negative publicity that comes with failed tests for their high profile stars. In most sports (read tennis, boxing, football etc) you'd have to be completely incompetent as a human being to get caught such is the laxity of the testing regimes.

emancipator wrote:
Clearly the governing bodies of international sport are not interested in making making a concerted effort to catch the cheats. No governing body wants the negative publicity that comes with failed tests for their high profile stars. In most sports (read tennis, boxing, football etc) you'd have to be completely incompetent as a human being to get caught such is the laxity of the testing regimes.

Quite so - and it works so as long as Joe Public continues to provide money pouring into these sports, which we are. The more money in the sport, the more powerful the initial opposition to those who wish to uncover the truth. Whilst officials would no doubt like a clean sport, they won't want the sh$tstorm caused whilst cleaning up to happen on their watches - much better leave it for future generations of officials.

For all I know, in football there's probably enough money for some involved to be prepared to threaten others' lives if there's a risk of uncovering systematic cheating. Even if that's not the case, the way in which the top brass at FIFA conduct their financial affairs does not fill one with confidence that they are searchers for the truth in other areas. I doubt football will ever be brought to book unless something like Puerto could reveal conclusively that mega-stars at mega-clubs were at it with the connivance of their clubs. If, as I suspect, the evidence is destroyed the world of sport, and Spanish sport in particular, will have lost a golden opportunity to make a difference. As I have said, if that were to happen I'll never believe in an exploit by a Spanish sportsman or team, or a Spanish-trained sportsman or team, ever again without conclusive proof of innocence.

Along with others, I don't see why the fact that doping was not illegal should make any difference - I've always believed that there should be no confidence in dishonest conduct, and doping would have been against the rules that every such sportsman was playing to and submitted to. If the bags are clear evidence of sporting cheating, then I don't understand why any right of privacy is maintainable by the people whose blood is in the bags. That is different to the right of individuals not to be wrongly named as having undergone dishonest treatment - but that can be relatively easily dealt with by blood tests I would have thought. The process could involve a letter to certain sportsmen saying we believe that you may be the person whose blood was kept in the bag labelled AB on the following grounds, please submit to a blood test to show the truth one way or another. If they agree we'll know, if not then their names can be published and the sporting body can take appropriate steps.

Just as an aside:
There are threads about Fuentes and Operacion Puerto on the cycling, tennis and football sections of 606v2.

Cycling has about 20 comments (it's not a busy board), this thread is now over 300 comments. Football board? No replies to the original post. No-one there is interested in anti-doping.

Because they don't see it as an issue in the sport

Guess its old news in cycling, and football doesn't think it has a problem (as LS says). In tennis we fear there is a problem but don't know how big, or who may be doing it. What we do know is that testing is woeful so we know its highly possible players get away with it if using PEDs - with or without any use of masking oxygen tents/chembers, etc.

Even though most testing across all sports is DIABOLICAL, tennis is doing more, not saying much at all mind, than some other sports where it is just an absolute sham!

LuvSports! wrote:Even though most testing across all sports is DIABOLICAL, tennis is doing more, not saying much at all mind, than some other sports where it is just an absolute sham!

Tennis is talking more about it.

Doing it is another matter. The other sports you're talking about just don't bother trying to spin it.

To my eyes, Djokovic did not defeat Nadal physically. He just bought his physical level up to the same as Rafa's to allow his otherwise superior game superior backhand etc to win out without physicality costing him the loss of that advantage.

The World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) has lodged an appeal against a decision to destroy 200 blood bags used in the Operation Puerto trial held in Spain.

Source: BBC.

Henman Bill wrote:The World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) has lodged an appeal against a decision to destroy 200 blood bags used in the Operation Puerto trial held in Spain.

Source: BBC.

Perhaps this may be too draconian, but disallow Spanish participation in international events till that evidence it is properly analysed, documented by WADA.

Pursuing such a line would make the Spanish authorities feel the pressure.

laverfan wrote:Perhaps this may be too draconian, but disallow Spanish participation in international events till that evidence it is properly analysed, documented by WADA.

Pursuing such a line would make the Spanish authorities feel the pressure.

I knew that you were a wolf in sheep's clothing . All that "innocent until proven guilty", "zero dopers in top 100" talk was just to confuse the enemy. In reality you know and worry more about the doping in sports than perhaps anyone on the boards.

This suggestion sounds too harsh even for me.

summerblues wrote:

laverfan wrote:Perhaps this may be too draconian, but disallow Spanish participation in international events till that evidence it is properly analysed, documented by WADA.

Pursuing such a line would make the Spanish authorities feel the pressure.

I knew that you were a wolf in sheep's clothing . All that "innocent until proven guilty", "zero dopers in top 100" talk was just to confuse the enemy. In reality you know and worry more about the doping in sports than perhaps anyone on the boards.

This suggestion sounds too harsh even for me.

I would love to see the innocence being separated from the guilt. This is about a negotiation tactic, there are no individuals being accused a priori. This about an embargo. I am sure someone is going to take me to task about collective and cruel punishment for Spanish sport.

Zero-dopers-in-top-100 is Tennis-specific, while the Spanish travesty is cross-sport.

I am not suggesting everyone is guilty at any point in this discussion, am I?

Let the 200 bags that hide the guilty be catalogued, named and shamed, so hundreds of others can continue pursuing what they love.

BTW, I have been watching PBS and Wolves and their Social structure in a series, the 'wolves' should be innocent till proven guilty. They have a bad reputation, like the Spanish.

laverfan wrote:the 'wolves' should be innocent till proven guilty. They have a bad reputation, like the Spanish.

I see, you have it all nicely covered

More seriously, I certainly appreciate your approach to doping discussions - taking it all seriously and being quite concerned about it, while being careful not to accuse individuals without proof. It is all too easy to do it just the other way around.

Thanks, SB.

It is to see that LA is considered the mold in which all other sportsmen are now being cast. Like the Spanish authorities, he has given a bad name to others.

Just to bring the attention of those that missed it, I was on the tennis has a steroid problem (THASP) website and there was some report referencing a G uardian article that says that Fuentes is basically now offering to sell the names of his clients to newspapers. No wonder he didn't reveal it in court, he is looking to profit from his immoral activities instead. That said, I hope the names do come out. Although at the moment there isn't much mention of tennis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/10/spanish-doping-doctor-reveal-sports

Would be brilliant but I suspect it's a bargaining tool that will see him let off in exchange for silence.

Spain really is a corrupt country in comparison to how this would be handled in Britain. It must be something in the Med - look at how that dancer has now decided she made it all up on Berlusconi?

I hadn't heard that and it's good to know that Berlusconi is now only guiilty of 85 immoral things instead of 86.

You might be right actually BB about it not coming out. But we'll see.

I don't think it's even that. It's not about being let off but money, the Spanish government will intervene and pay him off rather than see their big sporting names spewed forth in advance of a Madrid 2020 OG bid.

Those names will not see light of day.

Sadly, agree. Freedom plus Money = Silence

Hopefully someone on the inside, like Coe, is getting it clear that this means no Olympics. The best work is always done quietly.

Still if China can* poison Tibet with nuclear waste, supress freedom of speech, silence political opponents, not allow democracy, make random internet attacks on other countries, create a policy that leads to infanticide, bully Taiwan so it can't be recognised as a fully independent company when it clearly is and still win the Olympics then all bets are off. In fact, given all that it would be rude not to give Spain the Olympics.

* Allegedly.

@HB... I would even suggest the next 20 Olympics be given to African countries randomly.

If Rio with street murders can get it, why not Sudan or Rawanda.

How many indigenous tribes have been wiped out by illegal logging and quest for petroleum?

Evil racists, you can't say any of that, every countries systems are equally valid. We have so much to learn from Eastern wisdom, such as some of the things you mention, plus women's rights.

From my adopted country comes this sad news. No sure if it eclipses the Fuentes Spanish saga...

Major League Baseball is set to suspend some 20 players in the coming weeks due to a scandal involving performance-enhancing drugs, according to an ESPN report. The network says it is potentially the worst drug abuse case in the history of baseball.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/sport-baseball-scandal/?hpt=us_c2

@BB/Lydian... I am not taking blame for this cr@p.

Why is this sad news?

Exactly LS, I'm blaming LF for this being deemed sad news

I am with LS on this. I suppose it depends on what you view as the news here.

If you view the notion that players have been doping as the news, then yes, I can see why it would be sad.

But if you have thought all along that it was rather "likely" (to put it mildly) that players were using PEDs, then the only news is that they are caught, so you may not necessarily view it as so sad.

It is sad, because ...

We learn from History, that we learn nothing from history - GFWH.

...and that history repeats itself.

history teaches us that history teaches us nothing.

I see that former Tour de France winner Jan Ulrich has admitted to doping and being aided by Doctor Fuentes.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I see that former Tour de France winner Jan Ulrich has admitted to doping and being aided by Doctor Fuentes.

Today... - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23013133

In 2007... - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6523341.stm

All Fuentes' clients, revealed in the future, will have the following excuse...

However, Ullrich's lawyer Johann Schwenn responded: "After the irregularities of the Spanish investigation and at the UCI (International Cycling Union) it is perfectly possible that the apparent discovery is the result of manipulation."

Till, like Ulrich and Armstrong, they admit or take it to their respective graves. Absolute travesty of a sport.

Perhaps, Spanish authorities, like Ulrich, will also admit, in the future, of a list that they have had since 2006, and are waiting for the names on the list to retire.

Yes because it just happens in cycling 

LuvSports! wrote:Yes because it just happens in cycling 

Tennis has one of the toughest anti-doping policies in sport. If you're cheating, you'll get caught in tennis.

I managed that with a straight face.

Meanwhile, Nadal is well fancied for another major title and Djokovic has a great chance too.

But cycling is a travesty of a sport.

Do i need to repeat myself?

Do I need to add /sarcasm to my post?

djlovesyou wrote:Do I need to add /sarcasm to my post?

No, but perhaps you should learn to understand what people are saying before responding with ott sarcasm. I advise you re-read some of Luvsports previous posts and then consider his last post and your rather unnecessary sarcastic response.

thankyou timelord

Blimey charlie.

My sarcastic response was in support of what Luvsports said.

but ye i know ta