Fuentes - evidence of wider offences destroyed?

First topic message reminder :

I'm shocked hear that Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria has ordered evidence in the form of blood samples that could have pointed to a broader event than cycling to be destroyed.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

This just sounds perverse and does nothing to dispell concerns of wilder involvement. Still, when one thinks of what's been suggested in terms of Olympians etc, and suspicions of the integrity of the Spanish authorities, it isn't completely surprising to me. Regrettable though.

lydian wrote:Ok Socal, it's all above board, nothing to see here, let's move on.

Yep, exactly, because if it was so evil why did he admit it in the first place and why is it not illegal?

You have all the answers Socal, nothing to see here.

lydian wrote:You have all the answers Socal, nothing to see here.

I am sorry Lydian, it isn't about me having the answers it is about your own arguments not being internally logical. Again if it is so nefarious why is it legal? And we will see how effective and difficult it is to get when I go in for an appointment I will report back my findings.

Look Socal my point (logic) is that these devices are performance enhancing as they lead to a boost in oxygen carrying capacity. On top of that they're also used to mask EPO use. I would therefore just rather see them banned. Sure there aren't many CVAC devices around but there are loads of hypoxic tents...we have no idea whether Djokovic or any other tennis player continues to use non-CVAC hypoxic approaches. As devices in themselves clearly you say so what...but if they are used as EPO masking devices (albeit a risky method) then we're into a whole different area.

lydian wrote:Look Socal my point (logic) is that these devices are performance enhancing as they lead to a boost in oxygen carrying capacity. On top of that they're also used to mask EPO use. I would therefore just rather see them banned. Sure there aren't many CVAC devices around but there are loads of hypoxic tents...we have no idea whether Djokovic or any other tennis player continues to use non-CVAC hypoxic approaches. As devices in themselves clearly you say so what...but if they are used as EPO masking devices (albeit a risky method) then we're into a whole different area.

And again this report doesn't state that just these devices could mask EPO, it says living and training at altitude can, oxygen tents and other devices as well. Additionally, it didn't work as a cover for Armstrong either.

But I am interested with all this talk to go in and try it. In fact, I think I will schedule a series of these appointments in coming weeks and see the long term effect depending on my time and the cost of a session.

Given Armstrong never tested positive for EPO why do you say it didn't work?

We don't know how prolonged the spell would need to be at altitude for it to work as a masking agent. Given Armstrong could have used that approach but instead was advised to use chambers/tents we can only assume its a prolonged period...perhaps too prolonged for sports stars who can't stay in one high altitude place for too long given their regular travelling/touring commitments?

Unless you're a high performing athlete you'd probably be wasting your money on hypoxic sessions.

You are right, he didn't test positive for epo, he tested positive for corticosteroids.

As I said, I just don't see it as being a big deal, but frankly I will try it and find out if I can get these people to return a phone call. So if Armstrong didn't test positive for EPO it is proof that it worked? There is no proof that he even went to these centers. Either way I just don't know how air pressure and oxygen changes can be regulated by a doping agency, and I don't know how this provides you with a competitive edge when there are businesses who rent out the time. And also if it help athletes recover and it isn't a proscribed drug, so what?

Frankly, if they want to ban it go ahead, I don't think it makes that much of difference one way or the other as I stated the fitness as be all to a tennis champion argument I think is wildly overstated.

But if its value is as cover for EPO, well that's a completely different thing. I hope you're not thinking of testing it for that purpose socal!

bogbrush wrote:But if its value is as cover for EPO, well that's a completely different thing. I hope you're not thinking of testing it for that purpose socal!

Of course but it is not conclusive that it does that, two physioligists I found online said that a biological passport will catch CVAC use and EPO use, by the way they also think it should be banned. I need to be the best, broken down fat tennis player at my club, the payoff is simply too high bogbrush to resist the allure of PEDs

Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Here is the link to the physiologists comments, by the way they think it should be banned if it is as effective as blood doping but they do not conclude that CVAC sessions are as effective as blood doping.

http://mariposaxprs.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/a-physiologists-initial-take-on-the-cvac-pod/

Damn it playing on Wednesday, will try to move the session up to Tuesday night the guy had times.

Ok first session scheduled for Tuesday at 500 pm

socal1976 wrote:Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Yeah but your CVAC is probably a cheapo version.

Screechinator likely has the super duper version.

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Yeah but your CVAC is probably a cheapo version.

Screechinator likely has the super duper version.

There seems to be one machine it is listed as an approved location on their site. I have a lesson on Monday and a match on Wednesday so it will be a good little test of the egg chamber. I feel sorry for my poor opponent Wednesday night he thinks he is playing socal but in actuality he will be playing a superman doped up on oxygen and air pressure changes.

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Yeah but your CVAC is probably a cheapo version.

Screechinator likely has the super duper version.

There seems to be one machine it is listed as an approved location on their site. I have a lesson on Monday and a match on Wednesday so it will be a good little test of the egg chamber. I feel sorry for my poor opponent Wednesday night he thinks he is playing socal but in actuality he will be playing a superman doped up on oxygen and air pressure changes.

Take it easy on him. The shock of seeing a short, bespectacled, middle-aged, fat, bald guy running around like Screechinator may kill him

I don't look like that rather unflattering portrait you painted, but thanks I guess. As for fat I am more like Nalbandianesque than really fat and the rest of the description does not fit my Adonis like visage either.

eman

All nice fluff Socal, I hope the session is worth $75 if you're sub-athletic. However, its skating around the surface. LA was never caught for EPO use (which you were wrong about) and he was advised to use CVAC-type devices to mask EPO. Clearly it seemed to work pretty well and his success was unparalleled. Therefore, why would he have been advised to use hypoxic approaches if they were ineffective at raising/masking EPO levels? It would have been a suicidal risk to take just hoping the CVAC covered the EPO. What's more likely is that they knew precisely how the technique worked, and were able to monitor its progress through blood measurements. It seems to be a wonderfully simple & effective method if you're an EPO doper with the benefit of dual gains.

Really, Lydian fluff you mean like your innuendo that Djokovic took secret flights to recover in the egg chamber that you threw out there on another thread? That is what I call fluff. But if it makes you feel better to chalk up Novak's dominance to egg chambers and the rain feel free. It is pretty shallow sauce if you ask me. First you claim it is more effective than blood doping and now you claim it is a cover for blood doping.

By the way, I am not sub-athletic play about 8 hours a week, just have a little bit of Nalbandian going on around my waist. Frankly, I just don't care ban it if you like, chalk up Nadal's defeats to eggs ad rain if you like. I just don't care anymore.

Was LA's 1999 sample not the one that lead the French to correlate EPOs to LA?

In August, L'Equipe, a French sports newspaper, reports new tests on six urine samples allegedly taken from Armstrong during the 1999 Tour and frozen were positive for erythropoietin (EPO). Armstrong maintains he has never taken performance-enhancing drugs.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-08-23/lance-armstrong-timeline/57258518/1

PS: Yes, that is the case.

Also...
From 1998-2005, they couldn't test for blood doping or HGH. In addition, EPO "has a very narrow testing window" and wasn't even testable until 2000. Testosterone is notoriously hard to detect as well.

From Lydian's BusinessInsider link.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-lance-armstrong-never-tested-positive-2012-10#ixzz2SHqWYTnl

-----------------

I am very curious about SoCal's experiment and results. Bravo SoCal.

One session should not be a life-altering experience, though.

BTW, does Ellison have one installed in his house? It is not listed here, AFAIK.

http://www.cvacsystems.com/index.php/locations/

http://www.cvacsystems.com/index.php/corporate1/technology_overview/

laverfan wrote:Was LA's 1999 sample not the one that lead the French to correlate EPOs to LA?

In August, L'Equipe, a French sports newspaper, reports new tests on six urine samples allegedly taken from Armstrong during the 1999 Tour and frozen were positive for erythropoietin (EPO). Armstrong maintains he has never taken performance-enhancing drugs.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-08-23/lance-armstrong-timeline/57258518/1

PS: Yes, that is the case.

Also...
From 1998-2005, they couldn't test for blood doping or HGH. In addition, EPO "has a very narrow testing window" and wasn't even testable until 2000. Testosterone is notoriously hard to detect as well.

From Lydian's BusinessInsider link.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-lance-armstrong-never-tested-positive-2012-10#ixzz2SHqWYTnl

-----------------

I am very curious about SoCal's experiment and results. Bravo SoCal.

One session should not be a life-altering experience, though.

BTW, does Ellison have one installed in his house? It is not listed here, AFAIK.

http://www.cvacsystems.com/index.php/locations/

http://www.cvacsystems.com/index.php/corporate1/technology_overview/

And laverfan to the rescue. First we hear that Lance Armstrong was told to go into the egg chamber to mask epo results, and that it worked because he never tested positive for epo. Now we find out that Lance Armstrong tested positive 6 times for EPO and that prior to 2000 there was no test for EPO at all. Apparently if LA used the egg chamber it didn't (which we have no corroboration for whether he used it or not) mask his EPO well enough to cause 6 positive tests. I am accused of producing a bunch of fluff but we have arguments like one 20 minute session is like 200 trips up and down a mountain now where is the proof in that statement. We hear how not every athlete can afford it and how access is an issue because it costs 75,000 and off the companies website I schedule 3 twenty minute sessions for 75 dollars. On another thread we hear about secret flights on private planes to visit the egg chamber all just made up with not a shred of corrobaration. Every single argument used to cast aspersions on Djokovic in particular and the CVAC have been debunked. This is why despite assurances that this isn't an attempt to discredit Djokovic and to make excuses for why he is dominating and other players aren't, it becomes quite clear that this is precisely what it is. Apparently, oxygen and air pressure on a machine that costs 75 dollars an hour is an unfair advantage. Furthermore, I produce two physiologists on a link that state that EPO and CVAC testing can be discerned from a biological passport, which Djoko and all the top players voted in favor of.

Laverfan I scheduled (3) 20 minute sessions. Apparently, 75 dollars represents a massive hurdle to other players and an unfair edge to Djokovic. I think I will do a long term test of this stuff to see if it turns me into superman like some claim.

Here is another nail in the coffin of CVAC being a masking agent for EPO, CVAC from news releases on its website had its initial tests in 2005 the year Lance Armstrong won his last tour de france. Wow Michele Ferrari and Lance Armstrong must have been psychic to predict how CVAC a product in initial testing and not even in use the year Armstrong retired would mask EPO testing.

LuvSports! wrote:You are right, he didn't test positive for epo, he tested positive for corticosteroids.

No you are wrong as usual, do you do anything but cheerlead for people that attack me with cheap insults and morons who pretend like they know what someone looks like and what their sexual preference is online. Tenez's backside needs some kissing isn't it about time you visited another site?

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Yeah but your CVAC is probably a cheapo version.

Screechinator likely has the super duper version.

There seems to be one machine it is listed as an approved location on their site. I have a lesson on Monday and a match on Wednesday so it will be a good little test of the egg chamber. I feel sorry for my poor opponent Wednesday night he thinks he is playing socal but in actuality he will be playing a superman doped up on oxygen and air pressure changes.

Take it easy on him. The shock of seeing a short, bespectacled, middle-aged, fat, bald guy running around like Screechinator may kill him

I guess that is funnier than your usual moronic banter about BOO. Let me clue you since you seem to be special nobody found that schtick funny the first time you trotted out that retarded 5 year old BS and its even less funny the one thousandth post you do on it. I hope you find BOO and he kicks your backside for being unfunny and uninteresting. No wonder I drink I have tolerate mental midgets that are about as funny as a case of jock itch.

Socal, you call it innuendo - infact you're the one blatantly joining all the dots together - I'm just exploring possibilities of how 'a player' might access these devices when their resources are very deep. If you can list other players using CVAC or hypoxic tents then its good to expand the discussion, after all is this not an interesting line of discussion under what is a doping thread? Clearly from your replies its fuelled your interest and wasn't an angle you had considered before? It now strikes me that you sound almost desperate to find ways to denounce the method, it's access, it's benefits, the flaws in the LA case, etc...ever heard the expression "the (wo)man doth protest too much methinks"? You're now going full tilt at sarcasm and strawman building by going on about it turning you into superman, and accusing me of all sorts when I'm merely pointing out the practices of the now known doper Armstrong being advised to use these devices. Let's be clear, I am not accusing Djokovic of EPO doping. You seem to be the one doing that via denial (which I'm not asking for) in your various summing ups. What I protest at is use of these devices for a number of reasons, it's my opinion based on what I've read (which could admittedly be wrong of course, I keep an open mind) and I stand by it until evidence to the contrary that these devices provide no significant artificial sports performance benefit. CVAC may not have been available until recently but why limit this discussion to CVAC when it's more about hypoxic tents/chambers in general, CVAC is probably just an evolution of the method where the benefits are achieved even quicker. Let's discuss any athlete using CVAC/hypoxic tent methods.

LF, the fact remains Armstrong never failed an EPO test in competition. Whatever he was doing at the time worked. Only in retrospect has technology improved to allow more subtle EPO testing, however it was testable from 2000 so Armstrong could in theory monitor his own levels since then if he was using some kind of EPO system? However, I'm no EPO expert, nor am I massively versed on the case.

Lydian, I am not building strawmen:

1. You claim the technology is expensive and inaccessible it isn't, the whole tour comes to Indian wells approximately one hour from the nearest CVAC center, also there is one in LA as well, not to mention New York and the Miami area and it costs 75 dollars an hour

2. You then claim that LA didn't test positive for EPO yes he did, and he never tested positive for anything during his career so that counter argument I find unpersuasive

3. If the device and devices similar to it mask EPO why did it not work for Lance?

4. You mention Novak's 11 hour marathon in Australia being unbelievable and not in a good way on this thread that is where I got my impression of innuendo

5. In previous threads you state that CVACs are even more effective than blood doping now you claim they mask blood doping, this doesn't make sense to me because if something is legal and more effective than blood doping than why blood dope in the first place?

6. I produce a post by two physioligists, who while they don't come out and say CVACs are as effective as blood doping do say that if it is as effective as blood doping it should be banned and that biological passport that Djoko voted for would detect both blood doping and CvAC use and you call it fluff

7. There is no way that a player could travel around with an egg chamber or fly out in between events for treatment in the egg without making it real obvious but in past posts you allude to this possibility which is frankly unbelievable

I don't want this to get hostile, but I don't believe I have created any strawmen. The technology is not expensive, it is as accessible to anyone else on tour as it is to Novak. Novak is the only one who has admitted using it doesn't mean others haven't done so. And like I said I don't care whether they ban it or not, go ahead and ban it if it is suspicious. Although I do find it weird that the World Anti-doping agency would have jurisdiction over oxygen and air pressure and I find overreaching. These are the issues that make me question the motivations of this whole debate, I could be wrong I am no expert either. But I find numerous inconsistencies in the arguments raised above. You are entitled to your opinion, and frankly I want to try out and will report my results as unbiasedly as possible. I play tennis 3-5 times a week at a relatively advanced level and experience lots of body pain, if it helps I will say so. If it doesn't I will say so.

Don't take offense and honestly look at the points I raise and tell me they aren't valid, I like the fact that we can have these discussions without getting personal. I know you have good knowledge of the game and good intentions. I can't say that about everyone on this thread, but I also feel you have your biases as do I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_tent

The basic concept of living or training at altitude is to cause the body to adapt to the lower oxygen content by producing more oxygen-carrying red blood cells and hemoglobin. This improves the athlete’s ability to perform work, because more oxygen is available to the working muscles.

Sleeping in a simulated altitude environment allows the body to achieve some of the positive adaptations to altitude while still permitting the athlete to perform workouts at an oxygen-rich lower altitude where muscles can perform at their normal work level. An altitude tent is one way to enable athletes living at any elevation sleep in a high altitude-like environment. A more expensive option gaining popularity amongst professional athletes is to convert their entire bedroom to altitude.

The ethics of the use of these devices by athletes has been discussed by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), which claimed that it could be equivalent to blood doping and therefore they should be banned; however, on September 16, 2006, Dick Pound of the WADA announced that "...the overwhelming consensus of our health, medicine and research committees – was that, at this time, it is not appropriate to do so," No explanation was given as to how WADA would have enforced a ban.

The USADA report on doping in the Lance Armstrong case also indicates that sleeping in an altitude tent can be used to hide doping using EPO, as natural Erythropoietin production is increased, confusing the tests.

------------------

So it seems likely WADA couldnt ban these devices because there is no enforceable method of detection of use. Not that the devices themselves are ok per se given their blood doping-like benefits. It's the last paragraph that particularly raises eyebrows though, the masking element. Given WADA are currently unable to ban these devices it doesnt take Einstein to see there is potential for increased EPO abuse with them?

Rafa has spoken out on the subject this morning:

"The ruling wasn't positive for anyone," said Nadal. "The only ones that benefited were those who cheated. The ones that are hurt are Spanish athletes and sports in general."
Fuentes, who received a one-year suspended sentence for endangering public health, has worked with tennis players as well as runners, footballers and boxers, although he has not said whether he helped them dope.
“
That the ruling wasn't positive for anyone. The only ones that benefited were those who cheated
”
Rafael Nadal
"The image this transmits to the world isn't the one we were hoping for," Nadal, the former world number one, who has won 11 grand slams, added.
"I think it is a mistake that the names (of Fuentes' clients) are not known, but that is what happened. We will keep working so that sports stays clean and this doesn't happen again in the future."

lydian wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_tent

The basic concept of living or training at altitude is to cause the body to adapt to the lower oxygen content by producing more oxygen-carrying red blood cells and hemoglobin. This improves the athlete’s ability to perform work, because more oxygen is available to the working muscles.

Sleeping in a simulated altitude environment allows the body to achieve some of the positive adaptations to altitude while still permitting the athlete to perform workouts at an oxygen-rich lower altitude where muscles can perform at their normal work level. An altitude tent is one way to enable athletes living at any elevation sleep in a high altitude-like environment. A more expensive option gaining popularity amongst professional athletes is to convert their entire bedroom to altitude.

The ethics of the use of these devices by athletes has been discussed by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), which claimed that it could be equivalent to blood doping and therefore they should be banned; however, on September 16, 2006, Dick Pound of the WADA announced that "...the overwhelming consensus of our health, medicine and research committees – was that, at this time, it is not appropriate to do so," No explanation was given as to how WADA would have enforced a ban.

The USADA report on doping in the Lance Armstrong case also indicates that sleeping in an altitude tent can be used to hide doping using EPO, as natural Erythropoietin production is increased, confusing the tests.

------------------

So it seems likely WADA couldnt ban these devices because there is no enforceable method of detection of use. Not that the devices themselves are ok per se given their blood doping-like benefits. It's the last paragraph that particularly raises eyebrows though, the masking element. Given WADA are currently unable to ban these devices it doesnt take Einstein to see there is potential for increased EPO abuse with them?

Well I don't know that WADA couldn't ban it, the biological passport the players voted on in the opinion of two physioligists I cited in my link say would detect EPO or CVAC use. And again not to beat the horse but LA was found out, and by the way we have no evidence of whether LA did or did not use similar technology. Training and living at altitude can also have the same effect as what we have discussed. Also as regards to an unfair playing field I think it is quite clear that Novak travelling on tour for 11 months has the same access to this instrumentality that costs 75 dollars an hour as anyone else.

All we know about the LA incident is that LA was told this "could" mask the EPO, we don't know if he actually went through with it, and that despite this he tested positive for EPO once he was found out. So if he went through with it, it didn't work. And the argument that he wasn't found out till later is not convincing because that is true of his whole track record. A person knowing that LA was caught for EPO use would be crazy to rely on an egg chamber to mask EPO use, he better have a plan B at this rate.

It is a good discussion Socal and we should all keep open minds to points and counterpoints. If I may on your points...

1. $75,000 is a lot of money. If sessions for hiring are readily available then fair enough. But only in the US as far as we know. What we don't know is how much tents are being used, which will of course be all over the world. The Wiki link above states an expensive option pursued is converting entire bedrooms to high altitude. CVAC presumably works quicker.

2. LA didn't test +ve for EPO during his competitive career. However, the point is he was told to use these devices to mask his EPO use - the guy has said this himself, what's to argue there? We don't know if he used tents or not but I'd be surprised if he didn't given he wasn't caught in open competition.

3. It did work for Lance as he didn't test EPO positive during his competitive career despite many blood samples tested over the years.

4. Yes, I was amazed how anyone can play 11 hrs of exhausting tennis with limited rest in between. Its unreal. I'm also not the only one amazed by that...the press/media links are out there. It doesn't mean I'm accusing him of EPO doping during AO.

5. CVAC/hypoxic tents are known to result in an increase of EPO in the blood. However, it does it in a different way to EPO doping. The link I provided explained the acidic/alkaline differences. The masking is because it confuses the EPO drug test.

6. No, the fluff relates to you booking sessions to assess these devices. Hardly scientific and you need to be an athlete at the end of your endurance to draw the type of benefit discussed here.

7. No, they can't fly around with CVAC. But perhaps an athlete uses CVAC for aggressive benefit purposes when able to, then uses an hypoxia tent at other times? After all, if someone has become a fan of hypoxic conditions wouldn't they continue to do it via other means, which might require longer periods of immersion such as the bedroom conversions, or other known applications? But the ability to experience hypoxic conditions isn't limited to CVAC. Interestingly, we saw Federer practicising on what looked like a relatively high altitude clay court in Switzerland recently...that's the old fashioned way perhaps of boosting fitness for the clay season rigours ahead. Other athletes may want benefits quicker than that, may want benefits during tournaments and as discussed with LA may want to use the chambers/tents for whole different reasons.

Yes no need for hostility, this is an open discussion but I haven't really read much to counter the validity of hypoxic tents/chambers as performance enhancing devices...with added benefits too it would seem for those who seek to gain advantage.

I will respond tomorrow it is 2:15 in the AM good post Lydian it is a discussion worth having.

lydian, we don't actually know that about LA, as there is strong evidence that suggests his 2001 tour de suisse positive test was covered up. I know its a small point but I thought it was worth noting.

Fair enough LS. What's your take on the tent/EPO stuff?

The tent / EPO connection is important, but in my opinion the smoking gun of doping is a sharp uplift in performance. Now if any of the implicated athletes have operated at a consistent level throughout their career then I think we have to give them the fullest benefit of the out.

I am surprised WADA and co allow it 2bh lydian.
Their extremely punitive and draconian banned list is just stupid at times, so I find it odd this is still allowed but i do think it will eventually be banned.

Didn't/doesn't feds have a less sophisticated recovery boosting device/machine?

If I understand this, correctly (probably not), the CVAC mimmicks altitude adaptation (doesnt do much for me, then as I live 1800m above sea-level). Why dont South American nations buy it, as they play Bolivia (3000m above) in WC qualifiers quite frequently, and their players nearly die everytime. Are they unaware of the miracle egg? Or is it not quite miraculous?

$75, 000? Im sure Messi and co can each take a few notes from their pockets and buy that.

I am asking because, I really dont see why this machine isnt bought more often, by cycling teams for one.

Rafa

lydian wrote:LF, the fact remains Armstrong never failed an EPO test in competition. Whatever he was doing at the time worked. Only in retrospect has technology improved to allow more subtle EPO testing, however it was testable from 2000 so Armstrong could in theory monitor his own levels since then if he was using some kind of EPO system? However, I'm no EPO expert, nor am I massively versed on the case.

As you pointed out, EPOs have a very short window of detection and the body's natural processes vs synthetic processes can confuse tests. This also brings in an unreliability factor that Ferrari exploited.

For example, would a 1-month training session produce affects similar to EPOs without the risks of synthetic chemicals.
Should ATP reduce events to allow longer breaks and recovery windows? Should tourneys be fewer and of longer duration?
Are Synthetic EPOs just a short cut to what athletes' busy schedule does not allow otherwise?
Should TdF be shorter and run for more than 30+ days?

Are we heading towards something like this? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0fa_BaljjQ

Yep, large gains are usually suspicious. What I find surprising is how it's gone deadly quiet in the media since Sept 2011...we hear nothing from the players, from WADA, or the press. I'm sure these devices are still being used by athletes, or at the very least other hypoxic chambers. Given the possibility of ongoing use and tennis' woeful testing regime out of competition the sport is still open to abuse.

But is tennis' testing regime really that bad?

yes

I dont personally think so, these guys get quite a few suprise urine tests, and a few blood tests. Is there much more they can do?

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Yeah but your CVAC is probably a cheapo version.

Screechinator likely has the super duper version.

There seems to be one machine it is listed as an approved location on their site. I have a lesson on Monday and a match on Wednesday so it will be a good little test of the egg chamber. I feel sorry for my poor opponent Wednesday night he thinks he is playing socal but in actuality he will be playing a superman doped up on oxygen and air pressure changes.

Take it easy on him. The shock of seeing a short, bespectacled, middle-aged, fat, bald guy running around like Screechinator may kill him

I guess that is funnier than your usual moronic banter about BOO. Let me clue you since you seem to be special nobody found that schtick funny the first time you trotted out that retarded 5 year old BS and its even less funny the one thousandth post you do on it. I hope you find BOO and he kicks your backside for being unfunny and uninteresting. No wonder I drink I have tolerate mental midgets that are about as funny as a case of jock itch.

Sorry dude I didn't mean to get your description wrong. I'll try again. The shock of seeing a Nalbandianesque empa panda (whatever that is), doughnut eating, hirsute, bespectacled, drunk, with possible homosexual leanings (not that there's anything wrong with that), middle aged man, running around like the Screechinator may kill him.

Hope that's better

Now where was I ? Oh yes.... BOOOO000000oooooo.........



emancipator

John Howard, an 18-time elite and masters USA cycling national champion, an Ironman world champion and professional coach plus holds world cycling records at both ends of the spectrum of madness - speed (152 mph) and endurance (539 miles in 24 hours!!), used the CVAC system....the report is here:

http://www.ascent-oc.com/lava-magazine-the-new-altitude-training-sit-back-and-relax/

The benefits to him were clear.

"Triathletes and cyclists who complete regular CVAC sessions report great improvement in power and endurance; I found improvements in time trials, and I have a gut feeling that I increased my VO2 Max. Other athletes who use CVAC in their training report similar experiences; the benefits we’re noticing are consistent with the findings of independent researchers. Many athletes who’ve used CVAC have also reported better recovery. The general consensus is that we are able to train longer and harder when we incorporate the CVAC sessions into our training. Improvements in muscle efficiency, muscle buffering, and the ability to tolerate lactic acid production are likely behind this, and I think this all could help ward against over training.

Although I was injury-free during my training, others have told me that they were sure their recovery was significantly accelerated by CVAC sessions. The bottom line is, CVAC sessions improve the efficiency of your workout—no matter what sport-specific applications you employ.

I finished in the top 25 in a major Pro-Am event with over 8,000 riders and over 100 professional and Cat 1 riders. After the race I felt relaxed and strong—the way I used to feel in stage races 30 years ago. This all may seem anecdotal, but my experience checks out with a 2009 study published in Wilderness and Environmental Medicine showing the CVAC process to improve the capacity of study subjects’ blood to carry oxygen. I’m not a scientist, but this data shows that this method of altitude acclimatization can provide the power and endurance many successful endurance athletes enjoy."

I think the egg is very suspicious.

Team Screech has a number of dodgy characters in it.



emancipator

Emancipator, keep your comments about the tennis, not about the posters.

Michael Phelps used a chamber daily for a year before Olympics 2012 - he didnt have a bad games: http://espn.go.com/olympics/swimming/story/_/id/7556022/michael-phelps-using-hyperbaric-chamber-aid-recovery

Re: anti-doping testing in tennis, yes its lax. In 2009, the ITF conducted only 21 tests for EPO. Not one of those tests was an out-of-competition control. EPO is a hormone that the kidney naturally produces to regulate red blood cell production. If injected subcutaneously or intravenously, EPO increases red blood cell production and is thus a banned performance-enhancing drug. Given that ITF testing data covers both male and female tennis players, the 21 EPO tests for all of 2009 is an extremely low number. The ITF does not offer any data about the number of EPO tests administered in 2010 but in 2011, ITF and WADA conducted only 21 out-of-competition blood tests – used to detect growth hormone, EPO, transfusions and other blood-doping substances.

Again, this invokes the theme that anti-doping efforts in tennis are weak in comparison to other sports. ESPN questioned the ITF about the low number of EPO tests and the ITF replied they were focusing more on detecting steroids and stimulants, rather than EPO. This raises the question of whether the ITF has sufficient resources to conduct a thorough anti-doping program and whether the current testing program is sufficient to catch potential blood doping violations.