Fuentes - evidence of wider offences destroyed?

First topic message reminder :

I'm shocked hear that Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria has ordered evidence in the form of blood samples that could have pointed to a broader event than cycling to be destroyed.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

This just sounds perverse and does nothing to dispell concerns of wilder involvement. Still, when one thinks of what's been suggested in terms of Olympians etc, and suspicions of the integrity of the Spanish authorities, it isn't completely surprising to me. Regrettable though.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Emancipator, keep your comments about the tennis, not about the posters.

Careful Julius

I would not want to use my freelance moderator status to ban you

emancipator wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Emancipator, keep your comments about the tennis, not about the posters.

Careful Julius

I would not want to use my freelance moderator status to ban you

You'd be doing me a favour.

lydian wrote:This raises the question of whether the ITF has sufficient resources to conduct a thorough anti-doping program and whether the current testing program is sufficient to catch potential blood doping violations.

Why should ITF be solely responsible for such investment? Why are the NADOs/NAGOs hiding behind their respective National laws?

I provided an example, where if the French National Laws legalised doping, what jurisdiction would ITF/WADA have? What jurisdiction did ITF/WADA have over the Puerto evidence?

Trying to make a single body which has only advisory capacity responsible, is setting up the policies for failure, correct? It should be in the interest of the NADOs/NAGOs to have their respective contingents be clean, before they show up in an international competition.

I would even go one step further and any athlete from a nation, that is not compliant with WADA code, should not be given a medal or trophy or prize money.

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Just scheduled my first session on Wednesday at 500pm it costs 75 dollars for 3 twenty minute sessions, hardly seems inaccessible to me.

Yeah but your CVAC is probably a cheapo version.

Screechinator likely has the super duper version.

There seems to be one machine it is listed as an approved location on their site. I have a lesson on Monday and a match on Wednesday so it will be a good little test of the egg chamber. I feel sorry for my poor opponent Wednesday night he thinks he is playing socal but in actuality he will be playing a superman doped up on oxygen and air pressure changes.

Take it easy on him. The shock of seeing a short, bespectacled, middle-aged, fat, bald guy running around like Screechinator may kill him

I guess that is funnier than your usual moronic banter about BOO. Let me clue you since you seem to be special nobody found that schtick funny the first time you trotted out that retarded 5 year old BS and its even less funny the one thousandth post you do on it. I hope you find BOO and he kicks your backside for being unfunny and uninteresting. No wonder I drink I have tolerate mental midgets that are about as funny as a case of jock itch.

Sorry dude I didn't mean to get your description wrong. I'll try again. The shock of seeing a Nalbandianesque empa panda (whatever that is), doughnut eating, hirsute, bespectacled, drunk, with possible homosexual leanings (not that there's anything wrong with that), middle aged man, running around like the Screechinator may kill him.

Hope that's better

Now where was I ? Oh yes.... BOOOO000000oooooo.........



emancipator

Boo, oh Boo where are you and what have you done with emancipator's few remaining brain cells and limited humor? You do realize how stupid and unfunny your Boo schtick is? Nobody knows what the hell you are talking about and it gets less and less funny over time. But it is a good cover for someone who doesn't have much else to say. I hope BOO is out there and he is sticking your mother and sister with his soggy.

Don't know if it's been posted already and I missed it in the debate about egg-chambers, but Rafa agrees with Murray:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22409004

Thanks CJ. Does anyone know when the Tennis Bio-Passport is coming into effect?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Don't know if it's been posted already and I missed it in the debate about egg-chambers, but Rafa agrees with Murray:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22409004

Big difference is that Nadal was asked his view. Murray voluntarily shouted his "outrage" on twitter.

lydian wrote:It is a good discussion Socal and we should all keep open minds to points and counterpoints. If I may on your points...

1. $75,000 is a lot of money. If sessions for hiring are readily available then fair enough. But only in the US as far as we know. What we don't know is how much tents are being used, which will of course be all over the world. The Wiki link above states an expensive option pursued is converting entire bedrooms to high altitude. CVAC presumably works quicker.

2. LA didn't test +ve for EPO during his competitive career. However, the point is he was told to use these devices to mask his EPO use - the guy has said this himself, what's to argue there? We don't know if he used tents or not but I'd be surprised if he didn't given he wasn't caught in open competition.

3. It did work for Lance as he didn't test EPO positive during his competitive career despite many blood samples tested over the years.

4. Yes, I was amazed how anyone can play 11 hrs of exhausting tennis with limited rest in between. Its unreal. I'm also not the only one amazed by that...the press/media links are out there. It doesn't mean I'm accusing him of EPO doping during AO.

5. CVAC/hypoxic tents are known to result in an increase of EPO in the blood. However, it does it in a different way to EPO doping. The link I provided explained the acidic/alkaline differences. The masking is because it confuses the EPO drug test.

6. No, the fluff relates to you booking sessions to assess these devices. Hardly scientific and you need to be an athlete at the end of your endurance to draw the type of benefit discussed here.

7. No, they can't fly around with CVAC. But perhaps an athlete uses CVAC for aggressive benefit purposes when able to, then uses an hypoxia tent at other times? After all, if someone has become a fan of hypoxic conditions wouldn't they continue to do it via other means, which might require longer periods of immersion such as the bedroom conversions, or other known applications? But the ability to experience hypoxic conditions isn't limited to CVAC. Interestingly, we saw Federer practicising on what looked like a relatively high altitude clay court in Switzerland recently...that's the old fashioned way perhaps of boosting fitness for the clay season rigours ahead. Other athletes may want benefits quicker than that, may want benefits during tournaments and as discussed with LA may want to use the chambers/tents for whole different reasons.

Yes no need for hostility, this is an open discussion but I haven't really read much to counter the validity of hypoxic tents/chambers as performance enhancing devices...with added benefits too it would seem for those who seek to gain advantage.

1. I think it is established it isnt' expensive and not inaccessible in fact it is just as accessible for other players as it is for djokovic. The tour travels in the US and to three times a year passes in CVAC hotspots

2. LA didn't test positive his whole career, a player who witnessed what Armstrong went through and how his ultra sophisticated masking techniques were eventually ferreted out would see the detterent of that. As laverfan noted he had 6 EPO tests comeback positive, years later but that is usually how this stuff works as the testing is behind the tricks of the dopers.

3. You claim it did work for Lance, no it didn't because he got caught, he wasn't caught for much of anything during his career why would epo be different? Also there is no direct evidence with all the information that came out that he used this methods. Plus I am sure the guy also altitude trained as well, living in the mountains can have the same confusing results on an EPO test

4. Fine point 4 is settled and I appreciate that

5. I read the link and again the operative word is "may"? A great many things can confuse blood tests types of food, training at altitude etc, now I am talking all kinds of tests not just tests for EPO. The only famous example we have is that of LA who we know was advised about these tents and still got caught about EPO that cut against what you are saying in a big way

6. Again I am not a world class athlete by any stretch but I play religiously 12 months of the year with CA weather and not to toot my own horn I am pretty good. If this egg chamber helps in recovery by getting lactic acid out faster then I could certainly benefit and report on the results because playing on hardcourts multiple times a week 12 months a year creates problems. I may not give a fair gauge of the high level endurance aspects but I can report back on recovery, its benefits that it touts for your sleep etc.

7. By the way according to the CVAC info gained in my recent research, CVAC is not as high in terms of oxygenation as other procedures. It uses changing pressure levels and temp, and gives you up and down cycles of O2, as opposed to tanks and tents that flood your body with oxygen at a constant rate.

Here is the main point, if you read these two physioligists on the link I provided it states that the bio passport because it tracks the players blood levels year round and would point out odd spikes and detect both EPO and CVAC use (if the CVAC is that effective) to cause these spikes. By the way neither doc claims the CVAC is as effective as blood doping, but they both say it can be tested with the biopassport, and both think it should be banned anyway. So it isn't like they are on my side of the argument for everything.

socal1976 wrote:both think it should be banned anyway. So it isn't like they are on my side of the argument for everything.

So if both think CVAC should be banned just WHAT is your argument?

lydian wrote:

socal1976 wrote:both think it should be banned anyway. So it isn't like they are on my side of the argument for everything.

So if both think CVAC should be banned just WHAT is your argument?

Again, I don't care as much about their opinion that they share with you as much as their analysis that the biopassport would catch both EPO and CVAC use (if CVAC use is really that effective and they are not convinced that it is)

Socal, it feels that you're a little in denial because CVAC in tennis is linked to Djokovic. Would you argue the same if Djokovic hadn't used it? You're basically denying or going to some length to question all stated benefits of the system but then move on to the passport. You hinge a lot of credibility on 2 scientists who haven't tested the system so can't say if it works or doesn't.

CVAC say the system is twice as effective as blood doping, the endurance athlete I linked at the bottom of the previous page who tested the system said it made a huge difference for him, Michael Phelps used it daily for a year before winning 4 golds and 2 silvers last year at OG. There are probably others too. Phelps must have felt the gains to keep using it for a whole year. As discussed, these chambers are also used to mask actual doping - as LA was advised and as many other sources report. I don't see how these things are whiter than white/ineffective.

The biopassport is good but how much abuse and how many unfair advantage gains have already happened in tennis with their poor controls and testing. Who knows. Better late than never but is the passport system perfect/foolproof - what if an athlete's base level is made artificially high using CVAC/EPO and that becomes their benchmark passport?

lydian wrote:

socal1976 wrote:both think it should be banned anyway. So it isn't like they are on my side of the argument for everything.

So if both think CVAC should be banned just WHAT is your argument?

Hehe

As usual he doesn't have one.

Don't worry Socal there is still time for you to become a disciple. I will show you the light oh child Socal. Together we can end this despair. Egg chambers and alcohol are not the way.



emancipator - forever in the service of all intergalactic beings

eman what is the opposite of opposite?

Consider yourself bamboozled! They call me the bamboozler!

or for those who drink a lot the bam(boooooze)ler

So basically in a nutshell CVAC is a major performance enhancer which basically works the same way as EPO.

Now I understand why Socal doesn't like Ped 'witch hunts'.

Hello bamboozler, emancipator at your service.

Yep it raises EPO levels with the added benefit that if you also inject EPO it masks that too. A dopers delight.

Yeah it's interesting how Novak has stopped talking about it once the world at large learnt exactly what it was. I think he made a bit of a faux pas admitting to using it.

Interesting how he also transformed from a quitter with supposed breathing problems into an 11 hour marathon man in the space of a few months.

Just saying..

Ah but of course, the egg doesn't give u an advantage, it just keeps u warm at night.

lydian wrote:Socal, it feels that you're a little in denial because CVAC in tennis is linked to Djokovic. Would you argue the same if Djokovic hadn't used it? You're basically denying or going to some length to question all stated benefits of the system but then move on to the passport. You hinge a lot of credibility on 2 scientists who haven't tested the system so can't say if it works or doesn't.

CVAC say the system is twice as effective as blood doping, the endurance athlete I linked at the bottom of the previous page who tested the system said it made a huge difference for him, Michael Phelps used it daily for a year before winning 4 golds and 2 silvers last year at OG. There are probably others too. Phelps must have felt the gains to keep using it for a whole year. As discussed, these chambers are also used to mask actual doping - as LA was advised and as many other sources report. I don't see how these things are whiter than white/ineffective.

The biopassport is good but how much abuse and how many unfair advantage gains have already happened in tennis with their poor controls and testing. Who knows. Better late than never but is the passport system perfect/foolproof - what if an athlete's base level is made artificially high using CVAC/EPO and that becomes their benchmark passport?

The only evidence produced on this whole thread about this stuff masking doping is in relation to one case of a man who we have no idea if he used these oxygen techniques and who 6 times despite hypothetical masking abilities of these tests, actually tested positive on 6 different samples for EPO, so it isn't a very effective mask in light of ever improving testing techniques if at all. Other things like living in altitude will also give you the same hypothetical masking quality.

Again more logical inconsistency here, you state that CVAC is twice as effective as doping and it is legal. So why would you do the blood doping and not the CVAC? Is it more effective than blood doping or a masking agent for blood doping the case is not as clear as you present it. Nowhere in any research or cite that I have seen has anyone other than you stated that CVAC is twice as effective as blood doping. In fact the quote I produced by these two physiologists is very skeptical that the same results from oxygenation can occur as occur with blood doping.

As for my experiment I plan on doing a lengthy test myself of this stuff. I am sure it has some impact, but like those two physiologists I don't believe it is at twice the level of blood dopping or anything like that and a lot of the presumed effects may be overstated. I don't know that is why I want to try it out.

lydian wrote:Yep it raises EPO levels with the added benefit that if you also inject EPO it masks that too. A dopers delight.

Not so delightful for LA who had the most sophisticated conspiracy to scam the tests of any athlete in recent memory. Worked for awhile till it didn't.

emancipator wrote:Yeah it's interesting how Novak has stopped talking about it once the world at large learnt exactly what it was. I think he made a bit of a faux pas admitting to using it.

Interesting how he also transformed from a quitter with supposed breathing problems into an 11 hour marathon man in the space of a few months.

Just saying..

Ah but of course, the egg doesn't give u an advantage, it just keeps u warm at night.

Yeah supposed breathing problems which he had a surgery to try and correct, keep enlightening us. The more you talk the less I want to listen.

But Socal how can we be sure that you will reporting the correct results?

Prospective client sheet from the egg chamber people:

The CVAC™ Process: Information for the Prospective Client

Are you considering the CVAC process to improve your fitness? Before you start, here are some things you need to know:

The Cyclic Variations in Adaptive Conditioning™ (CVAC™) process has been shown in University-based scientific studies to improve physical fitness similar to exercise training, but the person sits comfortably. Exercise training requires the body to adapt to increased workloads to improve fitness. A person’s body responds similarly to the dynamically cycling changes in barometric pressure, temperature and air density of a CVAC session. We call it effort-free physical conditioning-- fitness benefits without aggressive physical exertion.

Any person with a chronic or serious medical condition must receive approval from their licensed healthcare provider via the form: Approval to Take CVAC™ Sessions provided by CVAC Systems, Inc.

The CVAC technology is safe; however, difficulty in equalizing the pressure between the middle ear and the Eustachian tubes can occur in some individuals. This is similar to an individual’s difficulty in equalizing this pressure during such activities as air flight, traveling in mountainous areas, swimming or diving. A brief presentation providing recommended ear-clearing techniques and when to use them is provided to each individual.

To assure safety and comfort in each CVAC session, all individuals must affirm that they are without any physical indicators of an acute cold, flu, sinus allergies or infection, toothache or dental infection, swelling in the throat, or any condition that would prevent them from equalizing the pressure in their ears while using the CVAC system. Please do not schedule any CVAC session if you have any of the physical indicators outlined above.





















The CVAC process is intended to provide adaptation-based physical conditioning. The CVAC technology is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, heal, lessen, manage or prevent any disease or other medical condition.




© 2013, CVAC Systems, Inc. All rights reserved. CVAC, CVAC logos, CVAC Pod, Cyclic Variations in Adaptive Conditioning and Effort-free Physical Conditioning are trademarks or registered trademarks of CVAC Systems, Inc.

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:Yeah it's interesting how Novak has stopped talking about it once the world at large learnt exactly what it was. I think he made a bit of a faux pas admitting to using it.

Interesting how he also transformed from a quitter with supposed breathing problems into an 11 hour marathon man in the space of a few months.

Just saying..

Ah but of course, the egg doesn't give u an advantage, it just keeps u warm at night.

Yeah supposed breathing problems which he had a surgery to try and correct, keep enlightening us. The more you talk the less I want to listen.

Ah yes the famous surgery.

Apparently for 24 years Schreechinator's nose wasn't working properly. He also apparently gad coeliac disease and hay fever and asthma. How did this guy ever become a professional sportsman.

Yes he had surgery because of hypochondria and a non-problem. Just another lame bully boy who attacks people for their medical conditions. When you are not making up a hypothetical sexual orientation and appearance for someone you have never set eyes on and thankfully never will. In short, most all of what you write is unsupported nonsense go back to babbling about BOO at least then we can just ignore your nonsense in peace.

Wasnt the surgery in 2004-5? Seriously.

kingraf wrote:Wasnt the surgery in 2004-5? Seriously.

Careful KR, Socal won't like you saying that

The environment provided by the CVAC process employs very short-duration exposures to hypoxia (contrary to other methods that use nitrogen titration, thus providing a constant hypoxic environment).

Read more: The New Altitude Training: Sit Back and Relax : LAVA Magazine http://lavamagazine.com/training/the-new-altitude-training-sit-back-and-relax/#ixzz2SLeuOziu

Again, if you are using for hypoxic effect CVAC gives you a lower masking effect than oxygen tents and masks. It cycles short bursts in order to get your body to respond and it plays with air pressure. Hyperbaric chambers, tanks, and tents provide a steady stream of oxygen while a large part of CVAC is playing with the air pressure not just oxygenation. If Armstrong was consulted that hypoxic treatments mask EPO then CVAC is the least likely masking agent. It is not a traditional oxygen flooding treatment.

PS if Djokovic was using to mask blood doping, why would he freely admit to it if that is the case?

kingraf wrote:Wasnt the surgery in 2004-5? Seriously.

Yes my point is he had a lengthy history of respiratory problems so the date is not really that important.

So how did he suddenly become the Screechinator if it wasn't the operation that sorted out his breathing problem?

You have to admit its kinda suspect how he went from being the biggest quitter on tour to outlasting Rafa in the space of a few months.

emancipator wrote:So how did he suddenly become the Screechinator if it wasn't the operation that sorted out his breathing problem?

You have to admit its kinda suspect how he went from being the biggest quitter on tour to outlasting Rafa in the space of a few months.

Was it a space of a few months, did you see the USO 2010, Madrid 2009. His breathing problems were sporadic sometimes he would huff and puff in the first set sometimes he could play for 4 hours. And we know again, very well documented that a change in diet also cleared up a lot of problems. Not to mention that if you had asthma and allergies, I have very bad allergies and had asthma as a child. Sometimes they go away as you grow older. Sometimes they develop all of sudden out of nowhere it seems. In my teens I required an inhaler, by my mid twenties I threw it away and haven't needed one for decade or more now. I had a friend who loved nutella as a kid, one day in his early 30s we had to rush him to the hospital after he ate a bar that had hazelnut in it. He almost died of an allergy he acquired in the middle of his life, his face swelled up like a balloon and his breathing passage swelled up till he couldn't breathe. Allergies can come and they go, I know this because I had them, and also rushed my friend to the hospital and the doctor said he had a late occurring food allergy that developed all of sudden when it had not existed before.

It wasnt an attack on Socal (who I often agree with), its just that the said surgery didnt really factor in into how Djokovic started outlasting Nadal.

This CVAC sounds a bit like those PowerBalance bands to me. I really just dont bite. Maybe when Socal comes back with a result will I be convinced either way. I am inclined to believe that the change in diet did a lot more for Djoko than CVAC. What I still dont get is how he has won four of his six majors in conditions where his hay fever is relatively bad

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:So how did he suddenly become the Screechinator if it wasn't the operation that sorted out his breathing problem?

You have to admit its kinda suspect how he went from being the biggest quitter on tour to outlasting Rafa in the space of a few months.

Was it a space of a few months, did you see the USO 2010, Madrid 2009. His breathing problems were sporadic sometimes he would huff and puff in the first set sometimes he could play for 4 hours.

But now it appears to have completely disappeared.

Socal, you need to check your facts...CVAC mimics high altitude also...ie hypoxia. Lance was told to use the same system (in effect) as Djokovic's CVAC. This Q&A addresses it:

Is CVAC the same as hyperbaric oxygen therapy?
Answer: No, the CVAC process is opposite, and the two do not compare. A primary difference between the two lies in use of low pressure and use of high pressure. The CVAC process conditions the body to use oxygen more efficiently by adaptation to altitude, also called high-altitude acclimatization. The CVAC process does not stop at altitude adaptation; however, it combines the benefits of high-altitude adaptation with benefits similar to benefits achieved through total body resistance exercise.

How does CVAC compare to intermittent hypoxic training?
The CVAC user’s response is a safe, limited and controlled natural hypoxia to induce the high-altitude adaptation response. The breathed, less-dense atmosphere (clean, fresh air) that is produced during a CVAC session is natural, and does not employ chemical means.

On Tennis TT Warehouse they call him Ceevac Djokovic...lol.

Emancipator read my above posts on allergies. I edited to provide more information.

I still marvel at the Australian Open 2011. I mean, there's getting through a marathon, which would be transformation itself, but to go and top it two days later was quite unprecedented in the sport.

Resolving a breathing difficulty really has nothing to to with that.

Maybe Lydian I don't pretend to know more about than a google search I will ask questions when I go for the session. If you want forward me some questions to ask the guy.

Kingraf, the science behind hypoxic tents is pretty sound. Simulating high altitude conditions causes your kidneys to create more EPO which makes you produce more red blood cells which increases your oxygen carrying ability...aiding performance and recovery. High altitude is mimicked by these devices and we know athletes have been clamouring for synthetic EPO and its benefits since the late 90s.

I recently re-watched that Djokovic-Murray match at AO12 and it was completely brutal hitting and retrieving for 5 hrs (probably Murray's best match to date actually). It was Murray who was starting to flag more than Djokovic near the end. To then come back with just a days rest to then play an even more brutal match for 6 hrs was ridiculous...again, it was the opponent, Nadal, who flagged at the end, not Djokovic. Nadal had had an extra days rest and a shorter match but was the one who wilted. To have gone from a guy who often flagged in 3 set matches or heat to that 11hr marathon was quite some achievement.

Maybe, but only 20 have been sold. At $ 75, 000 I would have expected a lot more to be sold, Americans are generally the pioneers of Sports Science, and they dont seem to have caught on to the gimmick. twenty wouldnt even cover the NBA league, or the college circuits. Its very interesting.

To be honest KR, it's more that you can get similar levels of boosting performance with a range of much cheaper devices. That's the reason, not that the device itself doesn't work. For all we know Djokovic may have switched to other hypoxic devices now so when he says he doesn't use CVAC anymore it doesn't mean he isn't continuing to use tents/chambers.

Yeah, but then if there are devices, and other methods which work just as well (training camps in the Alps?) , then there is no real reason to single this out.

Yes there is because it was Novak himself who singled this device out when he inadvertently said "I think it really helps — not with muscle but more with recovery after an exhausting set. It's like a spaceship. It's very interesting technology". Realising his faux pas he seemingly backtracked when pressed further about the egg. Like I said, for all we know he decided to stop using CVAC for the bad publicity it was causing but being sold on the approach went on to use other chambers/tents that are more readily available globally.

Training camps for a few weeks in the alps isn't the same as daily use of these things. Armstrong slept in an hypoxic tent every night in the mid-2000s...probably to help keep his EPO levels sky high as well as mask the synthetic EPO he was using.

Not sure that is true lydian, djoko fell over after a point in the 5th set, he just hung on better but literally he collapsed!

...of which match? Besides that doesn't render the wonder at the 11hr marathon obsolete.

kingraf wrote:Maybe, but only 20 have been sold. At $ 75, 000 I would have expected a lot more to be sold, Americans are generally the pioneers of Sports Science, and they dont seem to have caught on to the gimmick. twenty wouldnt even cover the NBA league, or the college circuits. Its very interesting.

If as Lydian claims that with no side effects this device for 75k is twice as effective as blood doping then it would be much more widespread than we currently see. It simply hasn't taken off, and if it has any of these incredible attributes and is so pivotal to Djokovic's success it would be blowing up all over the place. When I called in to get an appointment I basically could get any appointment I wanted it wasn't like the guy was booked up or anything.



We keep hearing about LA this device didn't even exist when LA was cycling and using EPO. And it didn't work for him he was caught on 6 different sample tests.

lydian wrote:...of which match? Besides that doesn't render the wonder at the 11hr marathon obsolete.

That is what hundreds of people do in a single Ironman event in one day not over 48 hours.

By the way, if Djokovic was using this device to cover for blood doping he would be a functional idiot to come out and talk about its positive effects and bring it to light. He wasn't under investigation or subpoena or anything. If blood doping mask is the reason he used it why mention it in the first place. That would be like killing someone with poison and then advertising to the police how you have an innate knowledge of poisons.

Socal, it sounds like more denial about these devices. Djokovic went very quiet after making that statement, so perhaps it was a faux pas, or perhaps the interviewer found out he was using it and so he was caught cold in the questioning and said too much. I just said in an earlier post, having looked into this further, there are a plethora of similar cheaper devices out there. Who's going to spend $75k on a CVAC when you might get 80% of their effect from something 7 x cheaper? That would be an obvious reason for failed take-off.

I read somewhere else whilst reading around all this that LA slept nightly on an hypoxic tent. You keep saying he failed tests but he didn't whilst in active competition or else his career would have been over a lot earlier than 2012. During his active years his methods of EPO evasion worked.

Djokovic's new "ironman" capability as you put it is not just discussed here in these "4 walls"...for example a few days ago this article was put out there

http://www.thehoya.com/sports/drug-testing-flaws-cast-doubt-on-djokovic-1.3033663?pagereq=1#.UYVj1Yy9KK0

When budget isnt an issue, you arent going to buy something that 80% as effective just because its seven times cheaper.

I'm just quoting 80% in the same time frame of use, the cheaper devices may be just as effective over a slightly longer period...and there is only so much EPO the body can process, it's just a matter of how quickly you can get up to and sustain those max levels.

lydian wrote:Socal, it sounds like more denial about these devices. Djokovic went very quiet after making that statement, so perhaps it was a faux pas, or perhaps the interviewer found out he was using it and so he was caught cold in the questioning and said too much. I just said in an earlier post, having looked into this further, there are a plethora of similar cheaper devices out there. Who's going to spend $75k on a CVAC when you might get 80% of their effect from something 7 x cheaper? That would be an obvious reason for failed take-off.

I read somewhere else whilst reading around all this that LA slept nightly on an hypoxic tent. You keep saying he failed tests but he didn't whilst in active competition or else his career would have been over a lot earlier than 2012. During his active years his methods of EPO evasion worked.

Djokovic's new "ironman" capability as you put it is not just discussed here in these "4 walls"...for example a few days ago this article was put out there

http://www.thehoya.com/sports/drug-testing-flaws-cast-doubt-on-djokovic-1.3033663?pagereq=1#.UYVj1Yy9KK0

Yes read the article the lady just made it up that djokovic is somehow tarnished because of weak testing regiments in sports. By the way she isn't a scientist or doctor, and is writing a blog for a college newspaper. Not much of a source if you asked me.