AUSTRALIA v B&I LIONS - TEAMS FOR 2ND TEST

by alive555 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 4:24 am

First topic message reminder :

flyhalffactory wrote:British & Irish Lions
15 Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues, Wales)
14 George North (Scarlets, Wales)
13 Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster, Ireland)
12 Jonathan Davies Scarlets, Wales)
11 Tommy Bowe (Ulster, Ireland)
10 Jonathan Sexton (Leinster, Ireland)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, England)
8 Jamie Heaslip (Leinster, Ireland)
7 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, Wales, Cap)
6 Dan Lydiate (Newport G Dragons, Wales)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, England)
4 Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, Wales)
3 Adam Jones (Ospreys, Wales)
2 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, England)
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England)

16 Richard Hibbard (Ospreys, Wales)
17 Ryan Grant (Glasgow, Scotland)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, England)
19 Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, England)
20 Sean O'Brien (Leinster, Ireland)
21 Conor Murray (Munster, Ireland)
22 Owen Farrell (Saracens, England)
23 Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues, Wales)

Australia
15 Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels)
14 Israel Folau (NSW)
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW)
12 Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies)
11 Joe Tomane (Brumbies)
10 James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels)
9 Will Genia (Reds)
8 Wycliff Palu (NSW)
7 Michael Hooper (NSW)
6 Ben Mowen (ACT)
5 Kane Douglas (NSW)
4 James Horwill (Reds - Cap)
3 Ben Alexander (ACT)
2 Stephen Moore (ACT)
1 Benn Robinson (NSW)

16 Saia Fainga'a (Reds)
17 James Slipper (Reds)
18 Sekope Kepu (NSW)
19 Rob Simmons (Reds)
20 Liam Gill (Reds)
21 Nick Phipps (Rebels)
22 Rob Horne (NSW)
23 Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

So that's it folks
Representation Split
9 Wales - 3 Cardiff Blues, 2 Ospreys, 2 Scarlets, 1 NG Dragons
7 England - 5 Leicester, 2 Saracens
6 Ireland - 4 Leinster, 1 Munster, 1 Ulster
1 Scotland - 1 Glasgow

That's FIVE CHANGES for Saturday's second Test in Melbourne. Two positional Lydiate in and Croft dropping to the bench, while Bowe replaces the unlucky Cuthbert who is benched with Maitland dropping out after ironically his best game on Tuesday. Injuries see Ben Youngs replaces Mike Phillips at scrum-half, while lock Geoff Parling and prop Mako Vunipola step in for the injured Paul O'Connell and Alex Corbisiero.

Nothing unexpected but Gatland has laid his cards on the table, he is shoring up the defence with Bowe and Lydiate, whilst possibly the shock coming in with Mako Vunipola starting at Loose Head instead of Ryan Grant. The bench however is a different story with no specialist cover at Lock, Centre, or Full Back, and no enterprise, versatility, or speed on the bench with Evans, Gray, Tuilagi, Hogg, Maitland all not considered.

Come on the Lions ROOOAR

by Casartelli Thu 27 Jun 2013, 6:59 pm

Looks like Team Lions (GB & Ire) may well have used their Colditz Staff Car Escape early in the series.

The injuries are unfortunate, but 'Gats' could still have picked a better 'team' than this? Mike Phillips has done exactly what he's done for the past decade - but suddenly that doesn't cut it any more? And what's 'Gats' got against the Scots?? And why does he love BOD, Lyds and ToB so much? But only has moderate bench love for SOB?

Aussies, with proper studs in their boots, by 15.

by wales606 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:03 pm

Farrell has played centre at international level

Bowe played centre for the Lions, and played a fair amount of games there when he was at the Ospreys

Fullback might be an issue, but it is probably worth the risk to have a powerful winger on the bench who can replace Bowe or North without sacrificing much - including the power gameplan

by majesticimperialman Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:07 pm

And why does he love BOD, Lyds and ToB so much?

BOD Because it is his last year at international rugby.

Lydate and Toby F. Because they are Welsh.

The rest of you thread ???

by Casartelli Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:13 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:And why does he love BOD, Lyds and ToB so much?

BOD Because it is his last year at international rugby.

Lydate and Toby F. Because they are Welsh.

The rest of you thread ???

'ToB' is Tommy Bowe, not Toby Fals. FGS.....!

Anyone who knew anything about the Lions, and rugby in general, would've known that.

The rest of YOU thread.

by flyhalffactory Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:40 pm

MarcusHalberstram wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
MarcusHalberstram wrote:Team seems a little odd, but always happens come the second test.

Not sure why people are still banging on about Hogg - he may have a future, but he's clearly not ready for this level yet, and has been more noted for his frailties than strengths on this tour (and I'm not talking about him playing at fly-half).

Do you care to expand for the whole forum of course, and not just us very very bitter one eyed Scottish posters.

I really would like you to expand on your statement if you please

I just don't think he's been very good! Neither does anyone else I've watched games with. I was looking forward to seeing him on tour, and a lot of people had him in their test team before the tour, but I just think he's looked out of his depth in attack and defence.

Ahh that old adage "me an all the people.......
ALL THE PEOPLE
SO MANY PEOPLE
THEY ALL GO... HAND IN HAND
SAYING WE DON'T LIKE STUART HOGG....... THATS LIFE (live with it, coz I can't really give provide you with evidence You Know What I mean!!)

Come on Marcus old bean, you are digging a mighty big hole there chum, and now including all your "rugger friends"
Where's the meat on the bone?, where's the bleeding evidence that he has been poor in defence and attack?.......... Us one eyed scots are getting impatient bonzo

by Guest Thu 27 Jun 2013, 7:58 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:And why does he love BOD, Lyds and ToB so much?

BOD Because it is his last year at international rugby.

Lydate and Toby F. Because they are Welsh.

The rest of you thread ???

Good answer Madge. Whilst it's a daft question, it's an equally daft answer. Of course, a stupid question does warrant a stupid answer, but I think you actually believe what you wrote.

by glamorganalun Thu 27 Jun 2013, 8:05 pm

The Hogg issue is typical Gatland, move him to a position he is not very good and then drop him, similar to J Hook + other Wales players (Peel, Popham, Delve, R Jones) while giving ordinary players lots of chances (A Powell, R Preistland, S Jones, G Copper, D Jones). There is no doubt he has his favourites like D Lydiate, G Jenkins, M Phillips, S Warburton none of which should have been first choice on this tour! Welcome to the world that is Welsh rugby under Gatland. Gatland law was bent for Jenkins and Phillips and no doubt Lydiate next year but not for the likes of Peel.

by Guest Thu 27 Jun 2013, 8:06 pm

If Grant had started, I'd have been delighted with the team really. Hopefully with Lydiate being in, it means Warburton won't be required to do the tackling this week and can have a bash at jackalling (if permitted by Mr Joubert of course).

No second row cover on the bench isn't ideal, but I think Lydiate could do a job there. He had to go two backrowers on the bench I feel, so unless he went 6/2 split, it was always going to be a lock dropped. People like Gray and Faletau are pretty unlucky though.

I hope for a good game and I also hope that people don't try scrutinising performances too much. I'm sure Lydiate will be "quiet" again etc, but if he's "quiet" and we win, well good luck to him. I'm sure everybody is an expert on these matters though.

by flyhalffactory Thu 27 Jun 2013, 8:23 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
tigertattie wrote:The Gatland bashing is down to his bare faced lies!

"I will pick on form"

Yeah. Ok Warren! Yer pal Lydiate has been on great form! Gatland is becoming the next Clive Woodward and making a mockery of the Lions!

Stat of the week: Gray made one less tackle than Lydiate in the game on tuesday!

We all know Maku cannot scrummage and with a lightweight 2nd row behind him, Ooooft. That scrum is gonna struggle! And there is 2nd row cover!!!!

Thats just silly!

If a 2nd row goes down, or a centre or a fullback then the Lions could be struggling big time!

Lydiate is a tactical selection. He has been off form but it makes sense. Genia caused the Lions the most problems last week. Lydiate's strength is his tackling and defensive work around the fringes. There is talk that Sexton is injured and not defensively as useful as he normally is or perhaps they just want to protect him as Gatland sees him as a key man for a series win. Either way Lydiate has been brought in to do a specific tactical job it seems.

OFF FORM!!........... this beggar belief
He has been out for what 12 months with a serious injury, since they he has been improving game on game, for goodness he has been the leading tackler in every game he played, almost twice as many as his rival blindside Croft and way ahead of SOB. Seriously tell me how in your eyes is he off form.

Of course its a tactical selection ahem!, "horses for courses"...... like every other selection is in any game.

He is in the test side because he is the best traditional blindside (when on top form) in the NH bar none, he might not be 100% yet but a 90% Dan is the main man. He is in the side because Mike Phillips is not playing and Youngs will need a "protector" and there is no way that Croft will be able to do that, its just not in his mindset to tackle all day. When Murray comes on then Croft will follow as Conor doesn't need the protection that Youngs will require.

by wales606 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:10 pm

glamorganalun wrote:The Hogg issue is typical Gatland, move him to a position he is not very good and then drop him, similar to J Hook + other Wales players (Peel, Popham, Delve, R Jones) while giving ordinary players lots of chances (A Powell, R Preistland, S Jones, G Copper, D Jones). There is no doubt he has his favourites like D Lydiate, G Jenkins, M Phillips, S Warburton none of which should have been first choice on this tour! Welcome to the world that is Welsh rugby under Gatland. Gatland law was bent for Jenkins and Phillips and no doubt Lydiate next year but not for the likes of Peel.

What position was Peel tried out in?

Where was Delve moved too?

Ordinary player...Stephen Jones???!!!

Gatland's law doesn't exist and never had - he has stated he will favour welsh based players if they are ON A LEVEL CRITERIA with foreign based players. Gethin Jenkins and Mike Phillips are CLEARLY the best in their position, therefore are selected.

Think you need to get your paranoia checked

by Totalflanker Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:14 pm

Just hope the first scrum goes well.........

can see the case for Vunipola starting but if that is your pick then IMO you need a stronger scrummaging second row than Parling - so Evans or Gray are needed. But if the lineout is your worry then you pick Parling but pick Grant as the better scrummaging LH. Vunipola and Parling together is all your eggs in one basket......and with Croft as second row cover, Gatland has swapped the basket for a very small purse - just hope Joubert is true to form when reffing the scrum.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:20 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
tigertattie wrote:The Gatland bashing is down to his bare faced lies!

"I will pick on form"

Yeah. Ok Warren! Yer pal Lydiate has been on great form! Gatland is becoming the next Clive Woodward and making a mockery of the Lions!

Stat of the week: Gray made one less tackle than Lydiate in the game on tuesday!

We all know Maku cannot scrummage and with a lightweight 2nd row behind him, Ooooft. That scrum is gonna struggle! And there is 2nd row cover!!!!

Thats just silly!

If a 2nd row goes down, or a centre or a fullback then the Lions could be struggling big time!

Lydiate is a tactical selection. He has been off form but it makes sense. Genia caused the Lions the most problems last week. Lydiate's strength is his tackling and defensive work around the fringes. There is talk that Sexton is injured and not defensively as useful as he normally is or perhaps they just want to protect him as Gatland sees him as a key man for a series win. Either way Lydiate has been brought in to do a specific tactical job it seems.

OFF FORM!!........... this beggar belief
He has been out for what 12 months with a serious injury, since they he has been improving game on game, for goodness he has been the leading tackler in every game he played, almost twice as many as his rival blindside Croft and way ahead of SOB. Seriously tell me how in your eyes is he off form.

Of course its a tactical selection ahem!, "horses for courses"...... like every other selection is in any game.

He is in the test side because he is the best traditional blindside (when on top form) in the NH bar none, he might not be 100% yet but a 90% Dan is the main man. He is in the side because Mike Phillips is not playing and Youngs will need a "protector" and there is no way that Croft will be able to do that, its just not in his mindset to tackle all day. When Murray comes on then Croft will follow as Conor doesn't need the protection that Youngs will require.

Sorry, FHF, what is this 'protector' role that you have penned in for a blindside like Lydiate? I thought he was a chopper extraordinaire? Anything that moves gets tackles. As long as they have the ball. How does that offer the scrum-half protection? Is Youngs allowed to shirk tackling duties that Phillips would otherwise get involved with? I feicin hope not. Is there something extra that Lydiate offers at the breakdown to protect his scrumhalf? Not that I've ever seen, he's often at the bottom of the ruck having made a tackle. Please can you explain?

by Fred Windsor Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:44 pm

I'm a bit mistified by this "Youngs will need a "protector" and there is no way that Croft will be able to do that," Youngs regularly plays with Croft at 6. Both times Youngs has started as part of a winning team against Australia, Croft started as 6. Can someone help me out?

by justified sinner Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:45 pm

Aus by 10

by sensisball Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:53 pm

With a weak scrum Faletau would have been a better choice for 8 than Heaslip who thrive on front foot ball. TB is much better at clearing up crap ball.

Thinking back to how poor Youngs passing was for Hogg two weeks ago, behind a failing scrum the perfect storm of Vinopolu, Parling, the excellent but lighter Tom Youngs with Croft or Lydiate covering 2nd row alll points to a really tough ask of this pack to even gain scrum parity let alone dominate the Aussies.
If Parling or Wyn Jones are forced off with injury in the first half then all bets are off for a Lions win.
With poor ball from Youngs Sexton will have his work cut out without the power of Roberts in the 12 shirt.

I am really looking forward to Gats and Rowntree's excuses if it all goes belly up.

by Newsilure Thu 27 Jun 2013, 11:02 pm

Lydiates inclusion makes a lot of sense, although making him play most of a match on Tuesday before including him doesn't .... to me that seems like the decision was left very late.

in the first test the Australians made 14 off loads to our 7 and even with North and Cuthbert running well the Australians made 25% more metres. If we don't stop them offloading and running they showed they can score trie. So, someone has to come into the team and do that job, no one is better at that than Lydiate.. he might not be fully fit but he still made more tackles than anyone else on Tuesday, a total of 15 without missing one. As far as I can see his inclusion is the only one of the 5 changes that is a clear improvement.

by flyhalffactory Fri 28 Jun 2013, 12:22 am

Fred Windsor wrote:I'm a bit mistified by this "Youngs will need a "protector" and there is no way that Croft will be able to do that," Youngs regularly plays with Croft at 6. Both times Youngs has started as part of a winning team against Australia, Croft started as 6. Can someone help me out?

Let me help you out Freddie

Just because Croft and Youngs play with each other club level doesn't mean that they are the best option at International level.

Croft at blindside does not close off the half back channel quick enough or tackles with the same intensity or volume as Lydiate....... if you want further help have a look at the stats on the Lions tour.

Now Youngs is not the abrasive 9 that Phillips is, at 5 inches shorter and 2 stone lighter hence he requires protection to gain the micro-seconds to make decisions. Now at the base of the scrum a 9 is going to get battered in a pack going backwards by the opposing 7 the very fast very hard hitting (Hooper at 15 1/2 st) and 8 (Palu nearly 19 st) and probably the rapid Christian Leali'ifano.

By the way Dan is 2 inches shorter and over a stone heavier than Tom, He tackles around the scrum at the 7/8/12 channels and will provide more protection than Tom to Ben.

Just my opinion and it could well change dependant on how Mr G operates Warbs and Heaslip

by markb Fri 28 Jun 2013, 2:59 am

I'm really not convinced by starting Lydiate, it's definitely tending towards the negative. A lucky 1-0 up in the series I think the advantage needs to pressed and the game taken to the Aussies with SOB starting. We really lacked abrasive ball carriers in the backrow last time out and SOB is a significant plus there whilst still being quality in defence and at the breakdown. Some are suggesting Lydiate is there to curb Genia, but they've played against each other 8 times internationally now, and having seen most of those games I can't remember Lydiate (even when in better form) subduing Genia. I just don't see Lydiate being succesful enough defensively against the Aussies over what SOB can do in that regard and what he adds offensively.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 28 Jun 2013, 6:44 am

flyhalffactory wrote:...Now Youngs is not the abrasive 9 that Phillips is, at 5 inches shorter and 2 stone lighter hence he requires protection to gain the micro-seconds to make decisions....

How does Lydiate's - or anyone's - tackling prowess help protect the scrumhalf when we have possession? You can't tackle an opposition player trying to get to one of our men when he has the ball.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 28 Jun 2013, 6:54 am

Precisely

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:32 am

I'm starting to agree with an earlier poster that some people want the Lions to fail.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:33 am

Expand, Lucky?

by Guest Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:35 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:...Now Youngs is not the abrasive 9 that Phillips is, at 5 inches shorter and 2 stone lighter hence he requires protection to gain the micro-seconds to make decisions....
How does Lydiate's - or anyone's - tackling prowess help protect the scrumhalf when we have possession? You can't tackle an opposition player trying to get to one of our men when he has the ball.

Clearing out the rucks. You've all been moaning about slow ball. Lydiate will help to speed up the recycling of the ball. Or do you want Hooper et al. with they dirty mitts all over it?

by Guest Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:37 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Precisely

Yet you championed Kelly Brown for his tackle count and work around the ruck area. Confusing.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:38 am

Griff wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Precisely

Yet you championed Kelly Brown for his tackle count and work around the ruck area. Confusing.

I did and would continue to do so, were he not injured. But I'm struggling to see how a legendary "chopper" offers more protection than other types of blindside flanker skills on offer?

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:38 am

It could just be me, Asbo, but some of the sentiments on this thread seem to go beyond surprise / confusion over selection into a desire to be able to say 'I told you so'. As I say, it could just be me.

by Guest Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:39 am

It's not just you Luckless.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:40 am

Lucky, there will be plenty of that, I'm sure, regardless of whether they secure a series win on Saturday or not! I'm sure that 'facts' will be bent to fit a story too, tis the way!

by fa0019 Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:41 am

Lydiate is a decent choice on paper as you have to expect a frantic backlash... you have to expect AUS to throw everything they have at the Lions.... and they need tackling demons for that.
Lyidate fits this bill nicely but I still think O'Brien or Croft would have been a better choice.

I agree its a defensive choice, trying not to lose the match, rather than going out to win the match. Very dangerous ploy... not sure if it will work.

Lydiate will tackle his heart out no doubt... but we need something a little more than that.

by R!skysports Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:44 am

I think part of that is because a lot of us dread the years of gloating that tends to follow after a win in any form - so there is a secret small part of us that prefer certain teams to be taken down a peg or two

Lucky for us, Scotland have never been in that position, as we tend to lose most 6n and world cups :-)

For the record, I want the Lions to win, but at the same time, feel it is being slightly mis-managed, so am happy to get my point across

For the record again - I broadly agree with the starting team, but have very large reservations on the bench

GO LIONS

by Guest Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:47 am

Riskysports wrote:I think part of that is because a lot of us dread the years of gloating that tends to follow after a win in any form - so there is a secret small part of us that prefer certain teams to be taken down a peg or two

Lucky for us, Scotland have never been in that position, as we tend to lose most 6n and world cups :-)

For the record, I want the Lions to win, but at the same time, feel it is being slightly mis-managed, so am happy to get my point across

For the record again - I broadly agree with the starting team, but have very large reservations on the bench

GO LIONS

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:17 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Lucky, there will be plenty of that, I'm sure, regardless of whether they secure a series win on Saturday or not! I'm sure that 'facts' will be bent to fit a story too, tis the way!

I know it happens all the time, but I'd hope that one day out from such a huge match, we could disguise it a bit!

I'm a bit annoyed by this idea that all Dan Lydiate does is tackle. It's a while ago now, but have a look at his role in Cuthbert's try against France in 2012. Not only does he chop down Dusautoir, he's back on his feet to get the ball away sharpish. And he's not the quickest in the loose, but he does have good hands.

If all he did was tackle, he wouldn't be playing for Wales, let alone the Lions.

by lostinwales Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:20 am

Griff wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:...Now Youngs is not the abrasive 9 that Phillips is, at 5 inches shorter and 2 stone lighter hence he requires protection to gain the micro-seconds to make decisions....
How does Lydiate's - or anyone's - tackling prowess help protect the scrumhalf when we have possession? You can't tackle an opposition player trying to get to one of our men when he has the ball.

Clearing out the rucks. You've all been moaning about slow ball. Lydiate will help to speed up the recycling of the ball. Or do you want Hooper et al. with they dirty mitts all over it?

Having watched the game there didnt seem at any point to be any issue at all with slow ball. A lot of that was down to the ref's interpretation which meant minimal interference. This may change on Saturday. Speed of presentation/'protection' had nothing to do with Phillips not being there to use the ball when it came out.

The only difference better rucking might have made was when he went on his little runs and got chopped down. The easiest solution would have been for him to shift the ball faster. If he had got to the rucks faster in the first place he might have more time anyway.

An in form fit Phillips can be a hell of an asset. But for whatever reason he had, mostly, a horrible game last saturday

by flyhalffactory Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:26 am

ASBO

I was talking specifically Tom v Dan.

Do you really not see the difference between Croft and Lydiate at the scrum, ruck, maul.... all key areas whete the person distributing will be the 9 (forget about SOB as he was always going to the bench backrow cover)

by banshee007 Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:34 am

This is all about the Lions but I'm sure Gatland has one eye on the RWC. This is great preparation for his Welsh squad who will have gained much from this tour. If the Lions do get edged out tomorrow, there is the prospect of all 10 Welsh Lions playing next week, barring injury. What a game that will be.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:38 am

banshee007 wrote:This is all about the Lions but I'm sure Gatland has one eye on the RWC. This is great preparation for his Welsh squad who will have gained much from this tour. If the Lions do get edged out tomorrow, there is the prospect of all 10 Welsh Lions playing next week, barring injury. What a game that will be.

To quote an old tennis player, you cannot be serious?!

If you really think Warren Gatland would sacrifice a Lions series win and treat the third Test as some kind of World Cup warm-up game, then you are a fool and a bad innkeeper.*

* - Just a bit of Don Quixote for a Friday morning.

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:54 am

Croft vs. Lydiate

Clearly these two players have vastly differing skillsets and bring different positives to the table (as well as deffering negatives!!!).

With Croft you get the lineout skills, great mobility and pace around the park in defence and an ability to carry well and make good ground in wider areas.
With Lydiate you get great defence in tight areas, huge workrate and actually some decent carrying in the tight (which he is rarely credited for).

What I don't buy into, and therefore agree with asbo about, is that either one is better suited to this apparent 'protector role' that Ben Youngs supposedly needs as he's not as big as Mike Phillips.

When Ben Youngs reaches the back of a ruck and essentially, as all scrummies do, wants quick ball, it is going to be as a result of us having carried in to the contact. The way we get quick ball is by others players hitting the ruck hard and fast and getting past the ball clearing the shackle draggers defenders out of the way. Both Lydiate and Croft perform this role of hitting the ruck adequately well, albeit Croft hits more rucks wider out and Lydiate more in the central areas of the field. Neither are specifically a 'protector' for Youngs, and nor is it solely the blindsides responsibility to be clearing out bodies, but in fact is the responsibilty of the entire pack and in fact any player who happens to be close by.

Gatland has gone with Lydiate for this game. I don't agree that it is the right decision, but I can understand him making it, as he clearly feels that Australia will run the ball and initially through the middle, so wants a tackling machine defending there (perhaps he does not trust Youngs defence as much as Phillips). If Australia do come at us that way it will be seen as a good decision. If they go fast, loose and wide off early phase ball, then it may not be seen as such a wise choice, as in a foot race out wide I think I'd prefer to see Croft trying get to Folau or Tomane than Lydiate.

One thing is for certain though, Gatland has selected the players he believes are most likely to get US a result. Yes people, US. The Lions. He's not picked players based on nationality, but on who he thinks will get the job done. In about 27 hours time, we will know one way or another if he was right.

by flyhalffactory Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:17 am

Ozzy

The blindside positioning (pure logistics) at the scrum and invariably follwing this is where the majority of the rucks and mauls occurs sees the oncoming 7,8 and these days the 12 attacking the 9. The halfback then has normally three options: box kick, run or distribute. Phillips as a rule liked to take on the openside or 8 with a view to the midfield gap or to take men out and redistribute hence Croft would be their in the 9 channel ready to take on the offensive line. Youngs is a different type of halfback, whilst always looking for the gap he normally looks for rapid distribution to the flyhalf and Oz will look to close down this area. Lydiate naturally (traditional blindside position) will quickly be protecting this area where Croft moves into the modern offensive position in the attacking line. That is why Lydiates tackle count is more than double that of Croft as a rule. I was probably a traditional blindside for the best part of 20 yrs, so appreciate the armoury of both players.

by Toadfish Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:20 am

Not for a second saying that stats are everything but these tour ones were in the Telegraph this morning for the Croft v Lydiate debate.

Category | Dan Lydiate | Tom Croft | L or C or E (Even)?
Appearances | 6 | 4 | N/A
Mins Played | 279 | 216 | N/A
Tries Scored | 1 | 2 | C
Carries | 23 | 21 | L
Metres Made | 27 | 87 | C
Clean Breaks | 0 | 3 | C
Defenders Beaten | 1 | 2 | C
Offloads | 1 | 3 | C
Tackles | 41 | 32 | L
Missed Tackles | 3 | 3 | E
Turnovers Won | 3 | 3 | E
Turnovers Conceded | 3 | 1 | C
Linouts Won | 5 | 8 | C

Interesting that the only areas Lydiate comes out on top were carries and tackles made. Given Lydiates played more on tour if you normalised these figures I think Croft would actually come out on top in terms of carries and they would be dead even in terms of tackle count. Obviously you take stats with a pinch of salt but thought they made an interesting read. (If they are wrong, blame the Telegraph!)

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:28 am

FHF

Sorry mate, but what you've put makes little sense to me and as far as I can see you are confusing which teams scrum half would be in what position at any time. If the opposition 7, 8 and 12 are attacking our 9 channel, then we don't have the ball going in to the ruck, so the half back who has the options on what to do is Genia not Youngs. At that point I would expect that Youngs would be retreating to a defensive position sweeping in behind the line.

If you our 7, 8 and 12 are attacking off the back of the scrum, then unless it's a blindside move wouldn't expect or 6 to be first to the subsequent breakdown and therefore would have no bearing on whether or no Youngs will get the quick ball that we all hope he does.

by lostinwales Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:33 am

Toadfish wrote:Not for a second saying that stats are everything but these tour ones were in the Telegraph this morning for the Croft v Lydiate debate.

Category | Dan Lydiate | Tom Croft | L or C or E (Even)?
Appearances | 6 | 4 | N/A
Mins Played | 279 | 216 | N/A
Tries Scored | 1 | 2 | C
Carries | 23 | 21 | L
Metres Made | 27 | 87 | C
Clean Breaks | 0 | 3 | C
Defenders Beaten | 1 | 2 | C
Offloads | 1 | 3 | C
Tackles | 41 | 32 | L
Missed Tackles | 3 | 3 | E
Turnovers Won | 3 | 3 | E
Turnovers Conceded | 3 | 1 | C
Linouts Won | 5 | 8 | C

Interesting that the only areas Lydiate comes out on top were carries and tackles made. Given Lydiates played more on tour if you normalised these figures I think Croft would actually come out on top in terms of carries and they would be dead even in terms of tackle count. Obviously you take stats with a pinch of salt but thought they made an interesting read. (If they are wrong, blame the Telegraph!)

Maybe Croft does a lot of 'unseen' work

by Cyril Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:47 am

lostinwales wrote:
Toadfish wrote:Not for a second saying that stats are everything but these tour ones were in the Telegraph this morning for the Croft v Lydiate debate.

Category | Dan Lydiate | Tom Croft | L or C or E (Even)?
Appearances | 6 | 4 | N/A
Mins Played | 279 | 216 | N/A
Tries Scored | 1 | 2 | C
Carries | 23 | 21 | L
Metres Made | 27 | 87 | C
Clean Breaks | 0 | 3 | C
Defenders Beaten | 1 | 2 | C
Offloads | 1 | 3 | C
Tackles | 41 | 32 | L
Missed Tackles | 3 | 3 | E
Turnovers Won | 3 | 3 | E
Turnovers Conceded | 3 | 1 | C
Linouts Won | 5 | 8 | C

Interesting that the only areas Lydiate comes out on top were carries and tackles made. Given Lydiates played more on tour if you normalised these figures I think Croft would actually come out on top in terms of carries and they would be dead even in terms of tackle count. Obviously you take stats with a pinch of salt but thought they made an interesting read. (If they are wrong, blame the Telegraph!)

Maybe Croft does a lot of 'unseen' work

Aye. I think some of Lydiate's stats are 'unseen' too. He's so good his performance indicators are impossible to measure by mortal means.

by Guest Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:48 am

That was the joke that lostinwales was making

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:52 am

Griff wrote:That was the joke that lostinwales was making, removed

And I think Cyril was joking too Griff

by doctor_grey Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:53 am

Well, it's all kind of a moot point now. Croft is on the bench for lock.

by Cyril Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:56 am

Griff wrote:That was the joke that lostinwales was making

Mine was a variation on a theme Wink

Just joshing.

by lostinwales Fri 28 Jun 2013, 12:10 pm

We all were - hopefully.

I think both are fine players but that Croft has a very wide skill set, and Lydiate a much more limited one, but that its (I hope) very much horses for courses.

by Norfolklass Fri 28 Jun 2013, 1:11 pm

My theory why Mike Phillips has been rested....he didn't track back and chase Genia for Folau's first try. He simply stopped running. The management found this unacceptable. It is a punishment.

by gelodge Fri 28 Jun 2013, 1:28 pm

markb wrote:I'm really not convinced by starting Lydiate, it's definitely tending towards the negative. A lucky 1-0 up in the series I think the advantage needs to pressed and the game taken to the Aussies with SOB starting. We really lacked abrasive ball carriers in the backrow last time out and SOB is a significant plus there whilst still being quality in defence and at the breakdown. Some are suggesting Lydiate is there to curb Genia, but they've played against each other 8 times internationally now, and having seen most of those games I can't remember Lydiate (even when in better form) subduing Genia. I just don't see Lydiate being succesful enough defensively against the Aussies over what SOB can do in that regard and what he adds offensively.

Quite a few are discussing Croft v Lydiate because of the outgoing/incoming aspect, but I agree with this poster that SOB is who we should have in the 6 shirt. Based on where we lacked in the 1st test, with POC now out and no Roberts or Tuilagi in midfield we really need a powerful runner in the backrow. Against a side like the Aussies if you're starting Warburton & Lydiate I think you need an 8 like Morgan, that not being an option, with Heaslip or Faletau at 8 I think you need Warburton & SOB on the flanks, or if you want Lydiate, SOB at 7, but with Warburton as captain that isn't going to happen.

Do people really think SOB is so inferior to Lydiate tackling and at the breakdown?

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Jun 2013, 1:42 pm

At least Sean O'Brien's on the bench this time, Gelodge. The Wallabies won't look forward to him coming on.

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