Gatland blasts critics...good on ya Gats

First topic message reminder :

http://www.allblacks.com/news/22679/Gatland-blasts-critics

Back home for you Gats, if they can't respect ya, we've plenty of teams that will.

.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Munchkin wrote:..Gat's has had his feelings hurt, and now he's in a strop, and can't enjoy the result now because of all those nasty things those nasty people said. Rubbish. Gat's loves it...

On Talksport this morning, they were saying that Gatland's family had come under attack. If true, that would have been a lot more disturbing for the man.

If that's true then it's an absolute disgrace, and those responsible should be held accountable for their actions. At that end of the day it's only a sport, a game, for people to enjoy, but unfortunately there are those who lack any sense of perspective in all walks of life. I can't really add more comment than that as I don't know what's supposed to have happened, or whether or not it's been verified as accurate. Will wait and see.

Lets not paper over the cracks. A weakened Aussie Team (over an almost first choice Lions), if they took the 15 points on offer could have been going into the second half 12 points ahead. The same could have been said for the first test. When we analyse the series people are going to say it was mitigated disaster.

2 Flyhalfs taken
Players made to play out of position
Players who have shown no intention of playing at International level were picked
Picking players who are known to have a particular weakness in their game for a high level test atmosphere
Selecting players who were carrying injuries over players who had performed well in the first test

and on and on

Metal Tiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I wish Gatland could have been the bigger man here. He won the series, he is a winner he could have afforded to be magnanimous.

So far he has told the press he "is not gloating about dropping O'Driscoll" and how he cannot enjoy the victory because people were mean to him. Feels like he wants to get payback.

What is more surprising is the amount of people who fail to say, "I was wrong he was right", and learn from the experience in the future.

A great result and a great win to be sure. As a Lions fan I am delighted & very hung over this morning. That does NOT mean I think Gatland was right in all his selections and he made mistakes. Philips for one was an awful decision.

You still think that even though you have been proved wrong time and time again?

I don't see your point of view at all. It makes no sense.

yes first its the full gats is crazy and doesnt know what hes doing...then after the thrashing that no one on the planet predicted its all about where he could have done better. ...mind boggling.

Gatland is getting even more pathetic - looking for sympathy now after shafting BOD when there was no need for it, so he can live with the consequences now.

He is lucky - losing Warburton to injury was a lucky stroke as well - it allowed him pick the best backrow.

Can anyone explain to me why he persisted with Mike Phillips? It was obvious from the first game he played with Sexton that they were not gelling.

Taylorman wrote:yes first its the full gats is crazy and doesnt know what hes doing...then after the thrashing that no one on the planet predicted its all about where he could have done better. ...mind boggling.

Did he know what he was doing for was he just lucky? The Lions looked like losing yesterday until Conor Murray came on (who didn't even make the bench for the first test despite being the best scrumhalf by a country mile).

One inside centre on tour has a few question marks over it as well. They could have done with James Hook on tour.

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:yes first its the full gats is crazy and doesnt know what hes doing...then after the thrashing that no one on the planet predicted its all about where he could have done better. ...mind boggling.

Did he know what he was doing for was he just lucky? The Lions looked like losing yesterday until Conor Murray came on (who didn't even make the bench for the first test despite being the best scrumhalf by a country mile).

One inside centre on tour has a few question marks over it as well. They could have done with James Hook on tour.

I am almost positive if Hook had toured you would state the opposite.

maestegmafia wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Taylorman wrote:yes first its the full gats is crazy and doesnt know what hes doing...then after the thrashing that no one on the planet predicted its all about where he could have done better. ...mind boggling.

Did he know what he was doing for was he just lucky? The Lions looked like losing yesterday until Conor Murray came on (who didn't even make the bench for the first test despite being the best scrumhalf by a country mile).

One inside centre on tour has a few question marks over it as well. They could have done with James Hook on tour.

I am almost positive if Hook had toured you would state the opposite.

So you agree that Murray was hard done by  

At least Hook has some experience and would have been a decent bench option and maybe Hogg might have got a chance to play in his usual position.

Gatland made very hard work of what should have been a very easy series - Australia were playing without an outhalf ffs!

Sadly the rise in social media usage has made directly abusing people and even threatening them and their families so much easier and an instant thing.

Reportedly Cian Healy received a lot  of threats after the Cole incident.

Now we start to hear that Gatland (and Farrell and Rowntree) got the same stuff, with their families involved.

It is sad to think that some of the bile and vitriol we see on here at times, is small fry compared to tw@tterverse.

Healy got an anonymous threatening letter into the Ireland camp (he may have got other stuff, but that is what freaked him out).

The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible. It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

LondonTiger wrote:Sadly the rise in social media usage has made directly abusing people and even threatening them and their families so much easier and an instant thing.

Reportedly Cian Healy received a lot  of threats after the Cole incident.

Now we start to hear that Gatland (and Farrell and Rowntree) got the same stuff, with their families involved.

It is sad to think that some of the bile and vitriol we see on here at times, is small fry compared to tw@tterverse.

People just don't understand the weapon they themselves have created.  They think they do, but they don't.

The gamut of opinions you get on social media is the very essence of the product.  In general, people are so ready to use it as if they can't actually exist without it.  Most people in the developed world now are wired up and have their accounts and their million 'friends', their YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and the many forums

What they seldom realise is that everyone is invited...and everyone goes to the same club.  Everyone.  

People comfortably enough chat freely away to other people who, if they met in real life, would never have a single thing in common.  Not in upbringing background, schooling background, music interest background, fashion background, personal political background, cultural identity background.  
In social media, the bad side of town goes to the same drinking establishments of the super rich.  The working class canoodles with the Etonians.  The inner city dangerous thugs debate issues with mammy's boys computer nerds.

Unusual chatting partners is the continuing hidden joke of social media.

People get all upset that people say bad things and yet fail to realise that people always say bad things. It's just that before the electronic social media age, most people would never hear those bad things because they wouldn't cruise in circles where the vicious language and attitude is norm.

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

Showing your class as usual, Scrumdown. A genuine Hibernophile. Thanks for your continuing posts of love.

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

So all that carry on with regard to how Shane Williams got about 500 chances to prove himself on the last Lions could be put down to the Welsh suffering of delusions of grandeur (I won't go into what his cameo appearance on this Lions tour was all about or the 1000
testimonial games in the Millenium stadium)!  

PS - think Gatty has won 2 GSs (just like Ireland)! Get your history facts right. Even though Warran was supposedly not coaching the last 6Ns, Wales actually lost to Ireland in the Millenium stadium in Cardiff.

"

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection."



That's right, Scrumdown...let it all out... It's this sort of vitriolic garbage that lets forums such as this down. Hope you feel better though.

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

Showing your class as usual, Scrumdown.  A genuine Hibernophile.  Thanks for your continuing posts of love.

It's not only the Irish who are guilty, everyone does it! Before the tour was underway, from the moment the original touring party was named, the closet nationalist backlash has been out of proportion. Despite being a success, this tour has convinced me more than ever that the majority of 'fans' only watch the tour with eyes for their own country's players and feck all else. With some contempt though without naming any names, I'm glad to say I didn't partake and supported everyone wearing red over the three tests.

Each individual camp has a man they've defended as if he were the second coming, even in response to some perfectly valid and plausible criticisms. For the Welsh it's been Phillips and Lydiate (I rate them both but how some people don't seem able to tolerate hearing a word against them is astonishing!). Needless to say many Irish people behaved very similarly when BOD was dropped. I have trouble criticising Maitland without somebody Scottish on my back about it afterwards. My point is everyone's been guilty of the same type of conduct while simultaneously blaming each other for exactly that conduct.

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

The only thing contemptible was Gats feeling so insecure around O'Driscoll's presence that he firstly picks a monosylibic, charisma free, out of sorts player ahead of him as captain and then drops him for the decider after carrying said captain, with the help of O'Connell, through the tour.  

Oh and Drico has still beaten Australia more times than ol Warren, food for thought for Warren before he receives his knighthood.

I dont see what being monosyllabic and 'charisma' free have to do with being a captain of a sports team? Its not Hollywood. Have you seen Martin Johnson?

rodders wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

The only thing contemptible was Gats feeling so insecure around O'Driscoll's presence that he firstly picks a monosylibic, charisma free, out of sorts player ahead of him as captain and then drops him for the decider after carrying said captain, with the help of O'Connell, through the tour.  

Oh and Drico has still beaten Australia more times than ol Warren, food for thought for Warren before he receives his knighthood.

You need some sugar for those sour grapes?

O'Driscoll is one of the most overhyped players the world has ever seen.

Rodders, Conor Murray has more wins than Gats against Australia when you include Munster's win against Australia.

See where Gats is now saying that it was tougher than it was in South Africa because the game's becoming more and more physical.''

Thats because of you Gats - you are the one whose gameplan revolves around beating up the opposition.

Anyone issuing threats against anyone is too sad to even warrant consideration. Let alone because of sport.

I have to say that I have seen no such rubbish on here, thankfully.

What I have seen is some pretty unpleasant abuse posted at some folks who happened to express an opinion on selection/game plan which involved any criticism of Gatland.

People should be free to express their disappointment or opinion about this tour without being called whingers, not real rugby fans, sore losers etc. It is afterall, a rugby forum.

kingjohn7 wrote:I dont see what being monosyllabic and 'charisma' free have to do with being a captain of a sports team? Its not Hollywood. Have you seen Martin Johnson?

Don't even think of comparing Warburton & Jonno. Jonno has presence, Warburton talks to refs nicely.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

rodders wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

The only thing contemptible was Gats feeling so insecure around O'Driscoll's presence that he firstly picks a monosylibic, charisma free, out of sorts player ahead of him as captain and then drops him for the decider after carrying said captain, with the help of O'Connell, through the tour.  

Oh and Drico has still beaten Australia more times than ol Warren, food for thought for Warren before he receives his knighthood.

You need some sugar for those sour grapes?

O'Driscoll is one of the most overhyped players the world has ever seen.

Na, Shane Williams has that title.

If you think Warbs was a poor choice fine, but using being "monosyllabic and charisma free" as an argument against him is ludicrous. Unless you have never been part of a sports team and base your decisions on who comes across well on tv.

GloriousEmpire wrote:
O'Driscoll is one of the most overhyped players the world has ever seen.

That is your opinion. Ridiculous one, but why should we ever expect you to change your spots.

O'Driscoll was once a great player. He is no longer, as years have taken their toll. He could still have done a job yesterday, but Roberts was always coming back if fit as he fitted the gameplan better. JD2 had put in the best OC displays on tour, and in the second half yesterday he fully vindicated his selection.

Those attacking Warburton in such a pathetic manner as if that makes BOD look better are sadly deluded. Warburton had, until yesterday, played better than any other 7. SOB was really good, but based on last week and the continued progression in his performances suggest Warburton would have been just as good.

Frankly far too many people need to grow up. Whichever side you are on, perhaps show as much dignity as both O'Driscoll and Warburton have demonstrated.

LondonTiger wrote:

Frankly far too many people need to grow up. Whichever side you are on, perhaps show as much dignity as both O'Driscoll and Warburton have demonstrated.

+1

RDSguru wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Frankly far too many people need to grow up. Whichever side you are on, perhaps show as much dignity as both O'Driscoll and Warburton have demonstrated.

+1

+2

RDSguru wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Frankly far too many people need to grow up. Whichever side you are on, perhaps show as much dignity as both O'Driscoll and Warburton have demonstrated.

+1

+3  

LondonTiger wrote: Whichever side you are on, perhaps show as much dignity as both O'Driscoll and Warburton have demonstrated.

What had Warburton to be dignified about?

rodders wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:The irish reaction to the dropping of O'Driscoll was contemptible.  It showed more than anything that irish rugby is suffering from delusions of grandeur.  

It seems to have been forgotten by some that Warren Gatland has won more Grand Slams than Ireland have in their entire history. Food for thought for those irish 'greats' who slated his welsh dominated selection.

The only thing contemptible was Gats feeling so insecure around O'Driscoll's presence that he firstly picks a monosylibic, charisma free, out of sorts player ahead of him as captain and then drops him for the decider after carrying said captain, with the help of O'Connell, through the tour.  

Oh and Drico has still beaten Australia more times than ol Warren, food for thought for Warren before he receives his knighthood.

Of all the bile that has been posted in the last week or so I think that tops the lot. You may not disagree with him being chosen as captain or O'Driscoll being dropped for the 3rd test but Warburton deserves more respect than that. He was outstanding in the 2nd test as well despite your criticism. Besides which your comment about him being monosyllabic and charisma free - what's that all about? Really sad to see these sort of comments after a great victory which the whole squad, SW and BOD as much as any, played a big part in.

LondonTiger wrote:
O'Driscoll was once a great player. He is no longer, as years have taken their toll. He could still have done a job yesterday, but Roberts was always coming back if fit as he fitted the gameplan better. JD2 had put in the best OC displays on tour, and in the second half yesterday he fully vindicated his selection.

If he wasn't good enough to be selected in the Test team, why was he brought on tour? Surely the decent thing to do would have been to leave him at home and not trot him out in front of a press conference the day he was going to be dropped. That is cruel what Gatland did to him. Johnny Wilkinson read the situation well and stayed at home.

Those attacking Warburton in such a pathetic manner as if that makes BOD look better are sadly deluded. Warburton had, until yesterday, played better than any other 7. SOB was really good, but based on last week and the continued progression in his performances suggest Warburton would have been just as good.

Warburton had one good game in the 6Ns against England. Other than that he was fairly ordinary. Tipuric was the difference for the fightback against Ireland, not Warburton. I don't rate Warburton and never have. The only reason why he was tour captain was because he won't challenge Gatland. AWJ should feel aggrieved by the way he has been used by Gatland. Far better leader.

Cadair Idris wrote:
Of all the bile that has been posted in the last week or so I think that tops the lot. You may not disagree with him being chosen as captain or O'Driscoll being dropped for the 3rd test but Warburton deserves more respect than that. He was outstanding in the 2nd test as well despite your criticism. Besides which your comment about him being monosyllabic and charisma free - what's that all about? Really sad to see these sort of comments after a great victory which the whole squad, SW and BOD as much as any, played a big part in.

Outstanding the 2nd test - thats the test that the Lions lost! Outstanding wasn't good enough then.

He comes across as being no crack - a bit surprising to hear one of the Welsh players saying that Paul O'Connell had great banter when asked what he learned on tour - its as if he is surprised that a good captain can be good fun.

Jamie Heaslip posted a photo of a group of the players out for a meal after the first Test - it was noticeable that there were no Welsh players in the group. I'd expect the tour captain to be making a big effort that the tour didn't divide into a Wales and everyone else situation, though in fairness to Cuthbert, he seems to hang around with the rest (once he got dropped). Even Zebo commented about how the Welsh lads seemed to spend all their time on the computers and didn't mix with anyone else.

  They couldn't afford to mix Sin - they were playing rugby at the end of the week - Zebo and the others had plenty of time to relax, have a few pints and a good craic. This is the Lions by the way not UCD 4th team out on the lash - Heaslip needs to get a wider lens on his camera. Tee total welshmen on their computers - That's hysterical, I love it

Sin e, my god you spout some drivel mate.

Is the sun not shining in your part of the world today.

Peace  

Sin é wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
O'Driscoll was once a great player. He is no longer, as years have taken their toll. He could still have done a job yesterday, but Roberts was always coming back if fit as he fitted the gameplan better. JD2 had put in the best OC displays on tour, and in the second half yesterday he fully vindicated his selection.

If he wasn't good enough to be selected in the Test team, why was he brought on tour? Surely the decent thing to do would have been to leave him at home and not trot him out in front of a press conference the day he was going to be dropped. That is cruel what Gatland did to him. Johnny Wilkinson read the situation well and stayed at home.

Those attacking Warburton in such a pathetic manner as if that makes BOD look better are sadly deluded. Warburton had, until yesterday, played better than any other 7. SOB was really good, but based on last week and the continued progression in his performances suggest Warburton would have been just as good.

Warburton had one good game in the 6Ns against England. Other than that he was fairly ordinary. Tipuric was the difference for the fightback against Ireland, not Warburton. I don't rate Warburton and never have. The only reason why he was tour captain was because he won't challenge Gatland. AWJ should feel aggrieved by the way he has been used by Gatland. Far better leader.

Sounds highly paranoid, almost superstitious I'd say but I'll bite. For one thing I can't see where your complaints originate from. Did BOD not start two tests? He was dropped tactically for the third and not to bad effect at that. Secondly despite the career he's had, what is it that makes BOD an exception to the rules that apply to all players? What makes him so special and privileged that a Lions tour is only worth his time if he's guaranteed a start? Most people generally agreed that Hogg wasn't going to start over Halfpenny, that Cole wasn't going to start over Adam Jones and that Farrell wasn't going to start over Sexton. Does that effectively mean it wasn't worth taking them? It's called having options and I don't know about you but most people don't consider BOD, as good as he may be, to be above having to be an option or earmarked as an automatic starter on every tour he attends.

Regarding your second paragraph, Warburton played well in two of the three games he started in the 6N (Scotland and England) and to say he didn't feature at all this tour is just plain wrong. He put in good performances against the Waratahs and in the second test or maybe you saw it differently in which case feel free to elaborate. As for claiming Warbs was only named skipper for not challenging Gatland's calls, how could you imply such a notion without being in the camp and knowing this first hand? It irks me how often people construct theories of this nature and assume they're right on a hunch and without any solid evidence. Are you on speaking terms with Gats? Does he give you a breakdown behind all his coaching decisions and selection policies? If not then why word it as if he does?

RubyGuby wrote:  They couldn't afford to mix Sin - they were playing rugby at the end of the week - Zebo and the others had plenty of time to relax, have a few pints and a good craic. This is the Lions by the way not UCD 4th team out on the lash - Heaslip needs to get a wider lens on his camera. Tee total welshmen on their computers - That's hysterical, I love it

Ruby - Sexton & Farrell managed to play 3 test matches (and wasn't that the evening Mike Phillips got into trouble for breaking his curfew  

Actually, his comments about them spending so much time on the computer made them sound a bit pervy.

Maybe they were training knowing they had a game the next day or maybe the photo shows they are the antisocial group, who knows, meaningless.

 Ok! Sin so they like a bit of porn on line, can't fault that can we. Next month I'll send you the DVD of Hibbard does Darwin - Real blockbuster and he has a few 1/2 lagers in between

Knowsit17 wrote:
Sounds highly paranoid, almost superstitious I'd say but I'll bite. For one thing I can't see where your complaints originate from. Did BOD not start two tests? He was dropped tactically for the third and not to bad effect at that. Secondly despite the career he's had, what is it that makes BOD an exception to the rules that apply to all players? What makes him so special and privileged that a Lions tour is only worth his time if he's guaranteed a start? Most people generally agreed that Hogg wasn't going to start over Halfpenny, that Cole wasn't going to start over Adam Jones and that Farrell wasn't going to start over Sexton. Does that effectively mean it wasn't worth taking them? It's called having options and I don't know about you but most people don't consider BOD, as good as he may be, to be above having to be an option or earmarked as an automatic starter on every tour he attends.

I'll explain again what I have a problem with. Gatland wheeled BOD out to a press conference on the day he was going to drop him which lead everyone to believe that that not only would he be starting the Test, he would probably be captaining the team in the absence of Warburton. That was a nasty thing to do. Then Gatland (having won the series) starts whinging about how nasty the press have been to him.

Regarding your second paragraph, Warburton played well in two of the three games he started in the 6N (Scotland and England) and to say he didn't feature at all this tour is just plain wrong. He put in good performances against the Waratahs and in the second test or maybe you saw it differently in which case feel free to elaborate. As for claiming Warbs was only named skipper for not challenging Gatland's calls, how could you imply such a notion without being in the camp and knowing this first hand? It irks me how often people construct theories of this nature and assume they're right on a hunch and without any solid evidence. Are you on speaking terms with Gats? Does he give you a breakdown behind all his coaching decisions and selection policies? If not then why word it as if he does?

I was responding to a claim that Warburton was outstanding in the 2nd Test. He made 9 tackles (3 less than Brian O'Driscoll) and the Lions lost. There is also the claim that he is the best 7 around - I don't agree (and the results are proof of the pudding if you look at the recent results - best performance of the Lions and Warburton was not playing.

I don't need to have spoken to Woodward to know that Martin Johnson was a great captain or Geech to know that Paul O'Connell is another one. Its just obvious when you see them playing and how others would look to them and speak about them. I don't see any of that with Warburton.

You forget that Gats was the Ireland coach, so we have a good insight into him from what various players have said about him as a lot of them have retired now.

glamorganalun wrote:Maybe they were training knowing they had a game the next day or maybe the photo shows they are the antisocial group, who knows, meaningless.

It was the night of the first Test - a group of about 10 went for a meal to a restaurant (test players in the group included Farrell, Sexton & obviously Heaslip).

Farrell doe not play for Leicester, they were in another party.

Well done A Murray making up for lack of Scots in the Lions team.

I was responding to a claim that Warburton was outstanding in the 2nd Test. He made 9 tackles (3 less than Brian O'Driscoll) and the Lions lost. There is also the claim that he is the best 7 around - I don't agree (and the results are proof of the pudding if you look at the recent results - best performance of the Lions and Warburton was not playing.

Those would seem to be selective stats considering the week before Warbs made more tackles than anyone and didn't get much credit for it (from you or anyone else). Likewise I recall some trying to argue that BOD getting pinged at the breakdown made his overall contribution good, while simultaneously claiming that Warbs' smarter approach to that area and higher tackle count made him worse off in comparison. Strange. But that's the first test.

You've conveniently ignored the 3 or 4 turnovers that Warburton won in Melbourne. And you mention we lost the second test as if it were down to him. In case you forgot, Lions didn't lose the game till Warbs had gone off injured. Funnily enough the Lions fell behind once BOD had been given the armband but I suppose you see that as a happy coincidence and nothing more...

I don't need to have spoken to Woodward to know that Martin Johnson was a great captain or Geech to know that Paul O'Connell is another one. Its just obvious when you see them playing and how others would look to them and speak about them. I don't see any of that with Warburton.

By recollection, POC's leadership in 09 was pretty dire. He didn't lead with much example and didn't show up to the best of his ability during many games so judging by what you've said against Warbs I can't see how you can call POC 'great' based on the job he did then. Being a great Munster captain doesn't mean he's *deep breath* up to every leadership job there is, the 09 tour being proof of that but then that doesn't seem to be something you're able to say without a virtual Irish lynch squad coming after you.

Come to think of it what has O'Connell achieved on the occasions where he has been made Irish skipper (and not just BOD's second man)? You'll find that Warbs has already won more in less time leading his country than POC has leading his and results speak louder than how social or vocal you are.

glamorganalun wrote:Well done A Murray making up for lack of Scots in the Lions team.

Indeed. Well done Andy Murray. Delighted for Andy, for all the fans, and in particular the Scots  

Fantastic achievement, and a great way to round off a brilliant sporting weekend for those of us in the UK and Ireland.

COME ON ANDY MURRAY.............. SUPERB MY MAN   

http://www.joe.ie/rugby/british-irish-lions/picture-stuart-hogg-looks-like-hes-ready-for-a-party-after-the-lions-victory/

And I think that picture vindicates Gatland bringing Hogg and has managed him perfectly. Living the dream

Knowsit17 wrote:

I was responding to a claim that Warburton was outstanding in the 2nd Test. He made 9 tackles (3 less than Brian O'Driscoll) and the Lions lost. There is also the claim that he is the best 7 around - I don't agree (and the results are proof of the pudding if you look at the recent results - best performance of the Lions and Warburton was not playing.

a) Those would seem to be selective stats considering the week before Warbs made more tackles than anyone and didn't get much credit for it (from you or anyone else). Likewise I recall some trying to argue that BOD getting pinged at the breakdown made his overall contribution good, while simultaneously claiming that Warbs' smarter approach to that area and higher tackle count made him worse off in comparison. Strange. But that's the first test.

You've conveniently ignored the 3 or 4 turnovers that Warburton won in Melbourne. And you mention we lost the second test as if it were down to him. In case you forgot, Lions didn't lose the game till Warbs had gone off injured. Funnily enough the Lions fell behind once BOD had been given the armband but I suppose you see that as a happy coincidence and nothing more...

I don't need to have spoken to Woodward to know that Martin Johnson was a great captain or Geech to know that Paul O'Connell is another one. Its just obvious when you see them playing and how others would look to them and speak about them. I don't see any of that with Warburton.

b) By recollection, POC's leadership in 09 was pretty dire. He didn't lead with much example and didn't show up to the best of his ability during many games so judging by what you've said against Warbs I can't see how you can call POC 'great' based on the job he did then. Being a great Munster captain doesn't mean he's *deep breath* up to every leadership job there is, the 09 tour being proof of that but then that doesn't seem to be something you're able to say without a virtual Irish lynch squad coming after you.

Come to think of it what has O'Connell achieved on the occasions where he has been made Irish skipper (and not just BOD's second man)? You'll find that Warbs has already won more in less time leading his country than POC has leading his and results speak louder than how social or vocal you are.

a) BOD is a centre, not an openside (though he still managed to win 1 turnover in Melbourne to Warbuton's 3). The selective stats in the 2nd Test have to do with the claim that he was outstanding in that Test. He was fine - he made his tackles (9) and secured 3 turnovers to BOD making 12 tackles and securing 1 turnover. Both gave away a penalty. As for losing the game - that was down to the very negative tactics of the team and of course, Davies missing a tackle on AAC, not BOD.

b) Your recollection is poor on Paul O'Connell's captaincy of the Lions in SA. Martyn Williams said he was the best captain he has ever played under (and he has played under a few) and AWJ has said similar kind of stuff recently.

You do realise AWJ couldn't hack it against what was then the best lineout combo in the world (Matfield & Bakkies). I wonder how well Warbs would have faired if Pocock was fit!

POC has rarely captained Ireland and when he did, we were usually missing our best player (Brian O'Driscoll).

It seems to be anyway that Warburton plays better when he isn't captain (England game) and has he ever played the full 6Ns that Wales have won a Gran Slam? I'd imagine beating SH opposition is fairly new to him as well and yet to be achieved by 23 Welshmen.

<yawn>

maestegmafia wrote:
I saw Keith Wood's comment, great bloke. Barnes seemed very quiet in commentary, until the win was in the bag, from what I remember yesterday. It was more the naysaying non apologists of 606V2 I was commenting on.

Everyone has a right to opinion, but admitting you were wrong and others were right takes a bit more... Also learning from the experience.

We have seen similar negative, un-praising voices, on here and in the published media deride and belittle the achievements of the same two coaches and group of players that have now been the key element in a RWC Semi Final, a GS, a consecutive Six Nations win and now the Lions tour of Oz.

Maybe now is time to say, "hey I was completely wrong and feel a bit of a pillock, these guys are really good".

To be fair Maestegmafia, and apologies if I've just missed it, but while you're calling out others on being wrong about Gatland and not apologising for it, I haven't seen comments from you anywhere admitting how wrong you were about the Farrells

thomh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
I saw Keith Wood's comment, great bloke. Barnes seemed very quiet in commentary, until the win was in the bag, from what I remember yesterday. It was more the naysaying non apologists of 606V2 I was commenting on.

Everyone has a right to opinion, but admitting you were wrong and others were right takes a bit more... Also learning from the experience.

We have seen similar negative, un-praising voices, on here and in the published media deride and belittle the achievements of the same two coaches and group of players that have now been the key element in a RWC Semi Final, a GS, a consecutive Six Nations win and now the Lions tour of Oz.

Maybe now is time to say, "hey I was completely wrong and feel a bit of a pillock, these guys are really good".

To be fair Maestegmafia, and apologies if I've just missed it, but while you're calling out others on being wrong about Gatland and not apologising for it, I haven't seen comments from you anywhere admitting how wrong you were about the Farrells

This is a good point. I've not read anyone congratulate the other coaches. Only garland, perhaps they should step of that bit of high ground and congratulate them.