Starting England XV for the november internationals.

Based on current form in the premiership, what would your ideal starting XV look like?
Mine would be

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
youngs
Burns
twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Strettle
Yarde
Brown.

On form I think Webber would be ahead of Hartley and is th man in possession after the Argentina tour, or Youngs if you go on Lions form.
I think Lancaster prefers the more mobile secondrow so would expect Launchbury to be in ahead of Attwood.
Vunipola has been shunted to 6 by Saracens and Morgan is on the bench for Gloucester.  Either would do, just not Wood there please.
Farrell would I have thought got the nod at 10, although I would prefer Burns (or Ford).
After Strettle got dropped in Argentina I think he will be lucky to get in ahead of Ashton.
I like Brown and his stats for beating opponents is good, but Foden makes more yards per carry and for me adds a bit more quality.

I couldn't argue with any of your selections and over the course of 3 matches presumably all will get some time.  I do hope Twelvetrees gets all 3 games so we can see how good he is.  I don't blame him for all the hype he gets, but it would be nice to see him get a real chance to prove what he can do.

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Atwood
Parling
Wood
Morgan
Robshaw
Youngs
Farrell
Ashton
Twelvetrees
Tualagi
Yarde
Foden

Mako
Youngs
Wilson
Launchbury
Billy V
Care
Burns
May ( Very tricky but I go for eastmond,daly or
tait but I think all our injured at present.

I'm not sure we've seen enough of players yet to know who's really on form so just from very quick glimpses at the moment I would go with:

Corbs Webber Wilson
Attwood Launchbury
Wood Morgan Robshaw
Youngs Farrell
Yarde Twelvetrees Tuilagi Wade Foden

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Care, Parling, B Vunipola, Eastmond, Burns. I'm assuming everyone but Croft is fit by then.

Neutral in peace here lol, watch very little of the Aviva so how's Ben Morgan going. For me the guy is class and whilst I understand why he didn't choose Wales I wish he had.

He is a throw back to your typical no frills barn storming No8s of years gone by, is his fittest or fittest for full 80 still a bit suspect?

A bit like Deano in that respect.. that guy must have been near 130kg in his prime. In those days there was no such thing as rolling subs though. What a player mind. Game was a bit slower but even against the quickest of sides he was hardly ever shown up.

Going by current form I would pick Billy Vunipola over Ben Morgan but of course there's plenty of time.

When I was watching the Saracens vs Gloucester game the commentators mentioned that Big Billy Vunipola had lost some weight, and he did look very fit and powerful in that game.
Based on his current return in the premiership so far, I'd say Yarde has to be a shoe in for a position on the wing.

billy vunipola doesnt look ready for a start at test level to me. he often takes the wrong option and gets himself isolated and turns over ball. He also knocks on in contact a fair bit. also sarries have deployed him at 6 in every game i believe, i prefer no.8's to play no. 8.

I understand why people have suggested he should start for england as he has great impact ball in hand but i would still go with morgan. problem is gloucester would rather start the in form kalamafoni at no. 8 so morgan is getting the gametime england would like him to.

HQ matt now that Brown is fully fit I think that Vunipola will move back to 8.

I also think that in scrums that Vunipola has been at the back. 6 and 8 can be relatively interchangeable in my opinion.

Vunipola is less experienced agreed but if Morgan can't get into the Gloucester side and is not showing good enough form it's tough to ignore Vunipola.

flankertye agree about Yarde. He's been getting those all important tries.

On the other wing I think Ashton has looked a lot sharper and far better in defence than last season.

As of the minute:

1 Corbs
2 Webber
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

9 Youngs
10 Farrell / Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

And to replace tuilagi...Will Tomkins be fit and raring to go? Otherwise Joseph may get his chance to nail down a place. Do we try Eastmond there. I'm not sure as Tuilagi is one of my nailed down starters.

a few people selecting webber to start, for me he is still 3rd choice, hartely has had a superb start to the season.

also suprised no-one wants to see toby flood involved.. I know he has been injured but for me, fit and on form, he is still englands best fly half. it seems to me being under 25 is the most important selection variable in most peoples eyes.

Hartley for me has taken a step backwards for me after his commentsto Barnes but think Youngs has struggled a bit with the new scrum.

I'm always slightly disappointed in Flood in regards to the fact he should be leading the way for England but just when we need him to put 2 or 3 performances together his form seems to dip. Just not sure he can handle to pressure. That I find his kicking out of hand very hit and miss.

Please god not Strettle, will never be a world class winger.

Tuilagi IMO is a massive blow, England need some punch in midfield and he was it. 12trees and Eastmond?

Morgans form is worrying but Vunipola is going well.

I'm not sure how some of these selections can be "based on current form" as the OP asks given how little game time (from an already limited season) some of them have had due to injury.

HQ Matt in regards to Flood - he's been good for Tigers but hasn't really performed for some time at international level in my opinion.

Would be nice to know how long Tomkins is out for. I don't know personally.

Disappointing to hear about Manu. He's a class player when on form.

So thats Tomkins, Tuilagi AND Eastmond out??

Hhmm going well...

Tuilagi is a huge blow. Leaves some interesting decisions to be made both in the backs and the pack as without him our only really heavy duty ball carrier is Morgan or Billy V. Yarde and Tom Youngs are powerful but not in the same weight bracket and Twelvetrees packs a very good punch for a play maker but again isn't a guy to crash through a strong defensive line.

It may in fact force a change of game plan in attack as, with Tomkins and Barritt out injured as well, we really don't have the players to go with the crash it up the middle until something breaks approach we seem to have employed for far too long!

1.Corbs
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchberry
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan/Vunipola - Let form separate them

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Daly - I'd expect Lancaster to go with Joseph but I rate Daly very highly and if we want to play at a high tempo and offer a threat out wide he's perfect for the 13 role IMO
14.Wade
15.Brown

16.Webber
17.Vunipola
18.Wilson
19.Attwood - In Webber, Mako, Wilson and Attwood we'd have three subs capable of adding real bulk to the pack in open play if needed
20.Haskell or Kvesic - Both offer versatility and added ball carrying to the back row if needed
21.Care
22.Burns
23.Eastmond

I'll probably get crucified for Daly (not least because he's injured!) but without Manu at 13 we can't continue with a 'crash ball until something happens' approach to attack. We need to start getting the ball outwide and bringing the back three into play and Twelvetrees/Daly have the skill set to make this happen. They both also have a massive boot which should take pressure of Youngs and Farrell hopefully leading to less poor kicking.

In the forwards if we are playing a high tempo game looking to up the pace and put width on the ball the likes of Youngs, Launchberry, Parling, Wood and Robshaw are perfect to employ that due to their work rate around the park. That pack will also offer a big shift in defence which will be extremely useful when playing with a new and young backline.

[quote]we really don't have the players to go with the crash it up the middle until something breaks approach we seem to have employed for far too long![quote]

Well ive just posted on the other 13 thread...saying id like to see Eastmond and Twelvetrees alternating on relevant plays in attack and defence. If your looking for a heavy carrier...you could do the same with 12 Twelvetrees 13 Burrell. This could lessen the lack of playmaking skills that Burrell posseses but still utilize his power..

Personally i think the team that will take to the field will be:

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Parling
5 Attwood
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan / Vunipola

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Wade / Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Joseph
14 Ashton
15 Foden

Now Tuilagi has gone, suddenly I'm at a loss as to what 13's could step in and lay down a marker. How was Joseph been so far?

As an outside bet what do people think of Trinder's chances of getting a call up? He seemed to have a quality game against Saints (knock on over the line excluded) with his defence being a real suprise bonus for me. While in the past his attitude has been called into question which could be a killer in Lancaster's eye, does he still have a chance?

Burrell has been playing very well for Saints and has shown that he does have ball handling skills as well as bulk and pace. He would work very well with 36 and the opposition would never know if the ball was going along the line and / or where / if a crash ball was coming or it was going to the wings.

There is a big advantage in having two centres that can both crash and handle the ball.

Difficult selection now with Tuilagi out, who's one of the primary carriers and only power carrier in the backs. At present the choices for 13 could be something like: Joseph, Eastmond, Tomkins, Trinder, Burrell, Allen, Banahan, Tait... I could go on.

Frankly I'd like to see either Tomkins or Eastmond get a go there. Very different players and Eastmond only gets a go in my view due to his exceptional ability to beat people inside and outside. Tomkins has to be favourite. I've seen some really nice passing from him recently and he has the size and offload to do a Tuilagi type job there.

Joseph hasn't been bad but I've not seen the undoubted talent he has shine through yet. Trinder has played well so far but needs a good season to be in with a shot. Could see Banners back there but unlikely I think.

My overall XV would be, given injuries:

1. A Corbisiero
2. T Youngs
3. D Wilson
4. J Launchbury
5. D Attwood
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan
9. T Youngs
10. F Burns
11. M Yarde
12. B Twelvetrees
13. J Tomkins
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

16. R Webber 17. M Vunipola 18. D Cole 19. C Lawes 20. B Vunipola 21. D Care 22. O Farrell 23. K Eastmond

Assuming no further injuries, this is the side i expect to see Lineup against Australia on 2nd November:

1 Corbisiero
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling
6 Wood (c)
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan
9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Joseph
14 Ashton
15 Brown

16 Youngs 17 Marler/Vunipola 18 Wilson 19 Lawes 20 Kvesic/Vunipola 21 Care 22 Flood 23 Foden

So I have chickened out slightly on the Vunipolas. Everything suggests that Stuart Lancaster still has Marler ahead of Mako - after all Marler was in possession in the last 6Ns. However I can see that we may well see Mako on the bench instead. Billy vs Kvesic really depends on what cover SL feels he needs most. Against aus I reckon he will want the extra scavenger available.

The players in italics:

Launchbury - I feel we need a touch more grunt. If fit (and SL is already having him rested by Leicester) Parling will play. I know he is not rated by many on these boards - but coaches and players do rate him. Tough on Launchbury, but i would like to see Attwood get a start.

Joseph - I am convinced he will play, but would love to see Eastmond get a go.

Ashton - is fighting with christian Wade for the 14 shirt. Will need to be back to his very best.

My feeling is that Lancaster is reasonably conservative and so the starting team is likely to be very similar to the 6N last season, with a few changes for injuries.

With that in mind, I think LT above has picked the starting team, there are quite a few players there who aren't the best form EQ in their position, but my feeling is that the squad is likely to be pretty settled.

Personally I would like to see Attwood and Billy Vunipola get some game time, if only from the bench.
Lawes is the safe bench option as he can cover 6 (in theory, I still have nightmare about his performance there!) but for me, I still don't see what he adds and would prefer some old fashioned bulk.

13 is a real worry, Manu has been our 'get out of jail option', give it to him and he will make ground. None of the other options can offer that, which means big pressure on the 10/12 combo to make things happen.

THe second row selection will be interesting.

Im not convinced Launchbury and Parling have enough as a combo. Launchbury will be a crackin player, but at the moment Parling probably edges him...and being a Lion, Prem winner etc is the obvious choice. But either Parling or Launchbury.

As for the t'other one..Attwood is looking the obvious one...but which other heavier 4's are about and playing well. How is Slater playing? Is it Matthews at Quins? Any others? Kruis?

Slater was immense against Bath, and very good against Falcons. However I see him as an excellent club player, but short of international class.

Londontiger I think both Vunipola bros should certainly be on the bench. Billy has shown he can also play at 6 so offers more from the bench than Ksevic.

Mako was a Lion and had a far better season than Marler, I would say he's ahead. Both brothers have also had decent starts to the season.

Don't understand your call for Joseph. The 13 shirt is certainly up for grabs but I can't see Joseph there.

everyone is picking Robshaw. No hissy fits from me

everyone is picking Robshaw. No hissy fits from me.

Thats becuase hes heads and shoulders ahead of any of the pretenders...which in itself is a concern if Robshaw gets injured...unless Wood moves to 7 in that scenario..

That and the fact Fraser is injured...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

everyone is picking Robshaw. No hissy fits from me.

Thats becuase hes heads and shoulders ahead of any of the pretenders...which in itself is a concern if Robshaw gets injured...unless Wood moves to 7 in that scenario..

Argh! Pick people in their actual postions please SL!

Center-wise, with current injuries I'd move Burrell across to OC with Twelvetrees IC

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I think both Vunipola bros should certainly be on the bench. Billy has shown he can also play at 6 so offers more from the bench than Ksevic.

Mako was a Lion and had a far better season than Marler, I would say he's ahead. Both brothers have also had decent starts to the season.

Don't understand your call for Joseph. The 13 shirt is certainly up for grabs but I can't see Joseph there.

Read what I said. Not my call - but who I think Lancaster will pick at 13.

Of course you think both Vunipolas should feature. Billy though has not shown he can play at 6. Defensively he has been found wanting. Kvesic can play all 3 positions, and as I said I suspect that they will want extra openside option on the bench.

As to Mako v Marler - our beliefs are diametrically opposed and we will never, ever agree i suspect. For what it is worth i feel Mako is a better bench option, but should Corbs be injured I would rather see Marler start.

Yes Will Fraser looked very impressive ill agree. See what hes like when he comes back.

Bathman...i want players in they're correct positions aswell but Wood covers 7 very well. And whilst the youngsters need games i agree like Kvesic etc... non are showing form that suggests they should get a start. Wood is a very good 7 and that would allow us to bring in another big 6.

Baring in mind this was only IF Robshaw was to get injured.

Shame Fraser got injured but because of that I think if Robshaw did get injured Kvesic would come in rather than move Wood, especially given Crofts injury. I think any new 6 would be as much of a risk as Kvesic and he was there in the summer hence he's a step ahead. If everyone is fit Vunipola to get the bench role covering the back row as we more urgently need to solve the lack of a genuine (or even suitable emergency cover) at 8 so he needs tp be blooded.

Well the options would be:

Keep Wood at 6 and put Kvesic in...or Move Wood across and put the very experienced Haskell at 6.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well the options would be:

Keep Wood at 6 and put Kvesic in...or Move Wood across and put the very experienced Haskell at 6.

I havnt heard much about Haskell's form recently but he can play right across the back row and does add experience and grunt. He isnt first chioce material these days but is a bloody useful back up option

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well the options would be:

Keep Wood at 6 and put Kvesic in...or Move Wood across and put the very experienced Haskell at 6.

I havnt heard much about Haskell's form recently but he can play right across the back row and does add experience and grunt. He isnt first chioce material these days but is a bloody useful back up option

I was just going to moot that as an option myslef. I wouldn't have a problem with seeing Haskell in at 7 or 6, he played well with Wood there in the 2011 6N. He's injured at the moment but if he can get back in October for a few games he's got a good chance of making the bench.

Real shame that Will Fraser missed out on the Argie tour, he has the attitude to make it at the top level I feel. Robshaw at present has to be in pole but it's still early days to start calling the 'form' players.

Agree with most who are saying that Parling will start if fit. The problem is this: Attwood would be my preference at 4. but he's been groomed for the line-out and ran it very well in Argentina. How would those two play together in that environment? Just a thought.

If we say that Attwood and Parling are mutually exclusive, then who else do you pair Parling with? It seems to have been accepted even by SL that the Launch/Parling might be a bit underpowered. Therefore do you play: 4. C Lawes 5. G Parling - Lawes gives good power around the field but mainly in defence rather than set piece or carrying, which is what is required.

That leaves only Slater as a realistic option. He's looked good so far but LT alluded to him not having the class for international rugby? Would you want him making his debut in the AIs?

Hask is injured and won't feature in the AI's unless he recovers ahead of schedule.

Injured: Haskell, Manu, Tomkins, Eastmond.

Regardless of starters a bench of Marler/Vunipola, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood and Vunipola, Care, Burns/Flood, Brown

How about Lawes and Attwood? They cover all the bases and are a far more physical pairing. Lawes for all his hype and then subsequent bashing is still a quality lock and has had some stand out games for England.

yappysnap wrote:How about Lawes and Attwood? They cover all the bases and are a far more physical pairing. Lawes for all his hype and then subsequent bashing is still a quality lock and has had some stand out games for England.

In an ideal world that's the ideal combo as far as i'm concerned. With Launchburry on the bench.

Are Tompkins and Eastmond both long term injuries?

If that's the case then I would say that there is a good chance of Burrell forcing his way in there. He travelled to Argentina too so is in the mind of coaching staff. As another poster said it could be a good pairing with 36. Farrell-36-Burrell would be pretty solid defensively too.

Joseph is another option but has he played much for Bath? Think I've only seen him in 1 game so far - other games Bannahan was wearing 13.

Other options available to SL in the centers are - the Quins chaps, Lowe and JTH (JTH is injured) and Lowe isn't really hitting his straps yet. Hooper was in the Saxons but wont go any further in the international set-up.

Daly could be a good shout - but he wasn't involved in the initial squad selection for Argentina - suggesting he is still someway down on the pecking order.

CHjw

I have no problems with Attwood and Parling. That gives you 4 (along with Wood and Robshaw) lineout options, Attwoods added grunt, Parlings workrate and athleticism. A decent combo in my opinion.

I could happily have Attwood and Launchbury aswell though as launchbury is a cracker of a player and not really done anything wrong to warrant being benched...

It would be an interesting combo yappy, but I can't help thinking Parling is the man in posession currently and is unlikely to be dropped.

In the front row, Hartley has gone about things in the right way to get his England shirt back, it wouldn't be a surprise for me if he is starting.

With the current list it looks like Jospeh is going to have a chance to go out and demonstrate he's a top class centre.

Bathman_in_London wrote:It would be an interesting combo yappy, but I can't help thinking Parling is the man in posession currently and is unlikely to be dropped.

In the front row, Hartley has gone about things in the right way to get his England shirt back, it wouldn't be a surprise for me if he is starting.

I think we can take it as read that the Test Lions that are fit will all start.

Parling will start i dont think theres much debate about that...its who is alongside him that is te interesting one.

For me:

15- Brown/Foden (he's found form so I wouldn't be adverse to him starting)
14- Yarde
13- Joseph (but playing for his spot in the EPS as I think other options are in better form and not sure he looks likely to progress as once expected)
12- Twelvetrees
11- Ashton - Wade on his tail
10- Farrell
9- Youngs (Care on his tail)
8- Morgan - Vunipola on his tail
7- Robshaw
6- Wood
5- Attwood
4- Parling
3- Wilson
2- Youngs
1- Corbs

Vunipola, Webber, Cole, Launchbury, Kvesic, Care , Burns, Tait if he's fit, if not one of Brown and Foden