Welsh clubs back Anglo-French tournament

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Didn't see that coming, though I haven't been following this particularly closely.

actually i take it back slightly. i just read LastKnights last post on the warriors forum and i cant re-quote it. just too offensive.

Actually think it is nothing more than an internal Welsh squabble.

Reading the tea leafs it seems that most of the issues are close to being resolved and this changes nothing.

This just looks like the Welsh teams trying to gain a level independence the same as the English and French clubs.
Will be interesting to see how the WRU react

None of know the details of any agreement, or even if an all Union agreement has been found. The little amount of detail released thus far doesn't really allow us that much.
It can be an emotional subject for some, and sometimes things are said in the heat of the moment. Things we wouldn't normally come out with, or even believe to be true.
From what I'm reading there seems to be many Welsh disappointed with the recent RRW statement, and these guys have been against the PRL/LNR proposals from the beginning.
Maybe some should hold fire at least until some facts come to the fore, and even then be mindful that insults can find unintended targets.

For RRW to join the new competition against the wishes of the WRU they would need not just what they were getting in the HEC but all the other funding the were getting from the Union. Seriosuly cant see that coming from the one competition so it would seem to me that its union sanctioned. Presumably this means that all the Pro12 unions are in too and the welsh clubs are the first to announce it.

Or am i reading that wrong?

Golden wrote:For RRW to join the new competition against the wishes of the WRU they would need not just what they were getting in the HEC but all the other funding the were getting from the Union. Seriosuly cant see that coming from the one competition so it would seem to me that its union sanctioned. Presumably this means that all the Pro12 unions are in too and the welsh clubs are the first to announce it.

Or am i reading that wrong?

if WRU support WRR (my reading too) then it doesnt mean the other unions are in. it just means we have at least a 3 nation competition sanctioned by 2 unions (assuming FFR still on fence). no necessary requirement for the other unions to have conceded yet.

in reality, if the WRU/WRR agreed to the tough prl/lnr terms and are willing to join RCC on that basis, it totally pulls the rug out from under IRFU/SRU/FIR. but that doesnt mean they have agreed yet. WRU have no obligation to look out for the interests of SRU/IRFU/FIR

It's either a seditious act against it's Union OR it's part of some choreography................ not necessarily a choreography sanctioned by the WRU either BTW.  It could be a prompt from new 'friends' to see how the other rats might react to a presumed sinking ship.

All speculation of course, but then idle chat and rumours never stopped this place before, don't see why it should do so now

troublemaker  

Golden wrote:For RRW to join the new competition against the wishes of the WRU they would need not just what they were getting in the HEC but all the other funding the were getting from the Union. Seriosuly cant see that coming from the one competition so it would seem to me that its union sanctioned. Presumably this means that all the Pro12 unions are in too and the welsh clubs are the first to announce it.

Or am i reading that wrong?

That's pretty much what I assumed. Until there's actual confirmation that it really has been agreed by all parties and we've seen the details of what's been agreed, I don't really see how some of the vitriol aimed at RRW can be justified. It may well be that there is a tournament structure everyone will find acceptable and has agreed to.

If the welsh clubs have done this without the wru sanction they could be in deep trouble if they try to break away. No rabo to play in, no money from the WRU.

I read it as they are trying to ratchet up pressure on the WRU but it could be a deal for all and they are fitrst to announce. However they do not way a deal is done and insinuate in the release that the WRU are not on side

Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

If the welsh make a deal for the franglo cup.  To get the other unions they can't do it by league as it would affect the deal with the welsh. ie they can't offer 3 places to wales at the top table and then change it to top 7 but has to include three welsh.

If the welsh did blink first forcing the others to have to fold expect the big money the welsh get for Pro12 to be shared and not kept by themselves.

quinsforever wrote:troublemaker  

Self-labeling is sooo yesterday  

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

Its clear its not the WRU tho - its a mouthpiece for the clubs

i can't requote it as its just too offensive. but here's the link for anyone minded to gawp. last post. isnt there some kind of legal restrictions against these types of inciting remarks on public forums?

http://www.glasgowwarriors.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8057&start=330

TJ wrote:If the welsh clubs have done this without the wru sanction they could be in deep trouble if they try to break away.  No rabo to play in, no money from the WRU.

I read it as they are trying to ratchet up pressure on the WRU but it could be a deal for all and they are fitrst to announce.  However they do not way a deal is done and insinuate in the release that the WRU are not on side

But surely it makes zero sense for them to isolate themselves from their union?

This is really seismic folks...despite the levity I show now and again.

This is really an all out power game between Union and clubs on this continent. It's much much more than the trials attendant to getting a new Competition off the ground.

It's big. It's juicy and it should be discussed at the UN.

None at all - but it looks like they have done so

"Consequently, RRW looks forward to working with the WRU to support their efforts and positive engagement in striving to ensure our teams are involved in strong, valuable European clubs competitions in time for next season."

Which I read as the RRW are hoping the WRU will not complain too much and will do our bidding

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

unless the WRR said to Roger "listen mate, do the flippin deal, get us our money, and we'll sign your participation agreement. after we sign up, the other celtic unions will have no choice but to follow. none."

quinsforever wrote:

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

unless the WRR said to Roger "listen mate, do the flippin deal, get us our money, and we'll sign your participation agreement. after we sign up, the other celtic unions will have no choice but to follow. none."

You think us Irish are that dumb, quins? ...we have spies everyhwere If the Welsh think they'd catch us on a hop, they don't know us. Philip Browne ain't no eejit.

Just read the article

"Wales have automatically seen at least three teams enter Europe's top tier, no matter where they finish in the Pro12.
The same is the case for Ireland's four teams plus two from each of Scotland and Italy."

What are the Beeb on? Ireland has never had 4 automatic qualification places!

The BEEB have their scripts written by PRL............ who know even less about Pro12 than they do.

Golden wrote:Just read the article

"Wales have automatically seen at least three teams enter Europe's top tier, no matter where they finish in the Pro12.
The same is the case for Ireland's four teams plus two from each of Scotland and Italy."

What are the Beeb on? Ireland has never had 4 automatic qualification places!

you misread it. the same "at least three teams" for irelands four teams

The cheek of them Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians for having auto places when the English and French have to..................... em..................... the cheek of 'em!

Hubert Davenport wrote:Great news. Bye bye ERC. Can't wait to see the Irish fold now. Totally predictable sabre rattling by a group of Celtic nations that don't have a pot to pi55 in! Brilliant.

Not so simple as that.

Welsh teams: "We're backing the PRL and NRL!"
Pro8 team: "Fine, when the current Pro12 deal runs out your clubs won't be allowed back in the Pro 12"
Welsh teams: "We're sorry!!"
Pro8 teams: "Get back in line! and btw, theres new terms and conditions you need to sign up to"

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

unless the WRR said to Roger "listen mate, do the flippin deal, get us our money, and we'll sign your participation agreement. after we sign up, the other celtic unions will have no choice but to follow. none."

You think us Irish are that dumb, quins?  ...we have spies everyhwere  If the Welsh think they'd catch us on a hop, they don't know us. Philip Browne ain't no eejit.

havent made any comment on the irfu SF. they might be geniuses for all i know. i just always thought the celtic alliance was made of paper (money) rather than steel. hence each has to look after their own interests at a certain point.

profitius wrote:

Hubert Davenport wrote:Great news. Bye bye ERC. Can't wait to see the Irish fold now. Totally predictable sabre rattling by a group of Celtic nations that don't have a pot to pi55 in! Brilliant.

Not so simple as that.

Welsh teams: "We're backing the PRL and NRL!"
Pro8 team: "Fine, when the current Pro12 deal runs out your clubs won't be allowed back in the Pro 12"
Welsh teams: "We're sorry!!"
Pro8 teams: "Get back in line! and btw, theres new terms and conditions you need to sign up to"

LOL, that would be the dream scenario for the welsh regions. they would be able to join the AP, a much-cherished ambition of theirs, and i am sure the AP would find a way to make it work...

we might have to rethink the HC qualification places again though LOL

Well well, not even The Saint seen this one coming... Wonder how a switch to the RCC will be possible when the Regions won't have the backing of their fans or the WRU? Very disapointing behaviour from RRW, and not for the first time either.

Quins - and which 4 AP teams would have to drop out to let them in?

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

unless the WRR said to Roger "listen mate, do the flippin deal, get us our money, and we'll sign your participation agreement. after we sign up, the other celtic unions will have no choice but to follow. none."

You think us Irish are that dumb, quins?  ...we have spies everyhwere  If the Welsh think they'd catch us on a hop, they don't know us. Philip Browne ain't no eejit.

havent made any comment on the irfu SF. they might be geniuses for all i know. i just always thought the celtic alliance was made of paper (money) rather than steel. hence each has to look after their own interests at a certain point.

Oh they can look after their own affairs, quins. It's a democracy in these parts... but if they wanted to up and leave us on our lonesome it'd be a better kind of valour to come right up to us, look us straight in the eye and say it to us, before publishing in on the BEEB. That would be the best way, because it would save our guys the embarrassment of saying "We knew you were going to do a Judas on the deal. It's ok, but no kissing on the cheek if you don't mind"

TJ wrote:Quins - and which 4 AP teams would have to drop out to let them in?

if you're referring to HC spots then i'm sure we can keep the 3 welsh spots and the 6 english ones in the newly expanded league of 16, and get rid of relegation. i am of course teasing. i just do happen to know that the welsh regions would love love love to be part of the AP and not reliant on WRU and Rabo for revenues.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

unless the WRR said to Roger "listen mate, do the flippin deal, get us our money, and we'll sign your participation agreement. after we sign up, the other celtic unions will have no choice but to follow. none."

You think us Irish are that dumb, quins?  ...we have spies everyhwere  If the Welsh think they'd catch us on a hop, they don't know us. Philip Browne ain't no eejit.

havent made any comment on the irfu SF. they might be geniuses for all i know. i just always thought the celtic alliance was made of paper (money) rather than steel. hence each has to look after their own interests at a certain point.

Lloyd George (another treacherous pretend Welshman) claimed that negotiating with de Valera “was like sitting on a merry-go-round and trying to catch up with the one in front.” He also famously said that negotiating with de Valera was ‘like trying to pick up mercury with a fork’ to which de Valera replied, ‘why doesn’t he use a spoon?’

  How embarrassing. Good night.

quinsforever wrote:

profitius wrote:

Hubert Davenport wrote:Great news. Bye bye ERC. Can't wait to see the Irish fold now. Totally predictable sabre rattling by a group of Celtic nations that don't have a pot to pi55 in! Brilliant.

Not so simple as that.

Welsh teams: "We're backing the PRL and NRL!"
Pro8 team: "Fine, when the current Pro12 deal runs out your clubs won't be allowed back in the Pro 12"
Welsh teams: "We're sorry!!"
Pro8 teams: "Get back in line! and btw, theres new terms and conditions you need to sign up to"

LOL, that would be the dream scenario for the welsh regions. they would be able to join the AP, a much-cherished ambition of theirs, and i am sure the AP would find a way to make it work...

we might have to rethink the HC qualification places again though LOL

Hmmm, so which four English clubs that are already craving an income would you knock out of AP to accomodate the Welsh, Quins? They'll like those envelopes through their privatised letterboxes. AP would still only be allowed 6 auto spots by the number crunching French...to keep things fair an' all So who would tell the English sides who just felt they got a better deal with more money that nope, it's really less of a deal and a few Welsh sides might take some of the HC spots?
Mucho complexity to get right in one year!

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Golden wrote:Well I'd like to think that the Pro12 unions are acting in unison probably a naive thought but i think they share similar interests in a european competition.

If they are joining it without the other pro12 unions it puts the league in a very awkward place.

unless the WRR said to Roger "listen mate, do the flippin deal, get us our money, and we'll sign your participation agreement. after we sign up, the other celtic unions will have no choice but to follow. none."

You think us Irish are that dumb, quins?  ...we have spies everyhwere  If the Welsh think they'd catch us on a hop, they don't know us. Philip Browne ain't no eejit.

havent made any comment on the irfu SF. they might be geniuses for all i know. i just always thought the celtic alliance was made of paper (money) rather than steel. hence each has to look after their own interests at a certain point.

Oh they can look after their own affairs, quins.  It's a democracy in these parts... but if they wanted to up and leave us on our lonesome it'd be a better kind of valour to come right up to us, look us straight in the eye and say it to us, before publishing in on the BEEB.  That would be the best way, because it would save our guys the embarrassment of saying "We knew you were going to do a Judas on the deal.  It's ok, but no kissing on the cheek if you don't mind"

totally fair. what do we know? maybe those conversations are being had. am fairly sure there is a lot of communicating going on. given tmrw is the 23rd Oct ERC meeting, we are in the final stretch of the death of ERC, and so i think news/statements are going to come fast and furious between now and the weekend.

An of course 3 leagues equal places so only 6 for the combined anglowelsh league

TJ wrote:Quins - and which 4 AP teams would have to drop out to let them in?

I bet London Irish get the bullet!

They could join the Rabo. I'd say London Welsh might also be interested. That would be two teams replaced.

I really don't think there is a deal. Its the welsh clubs saying they want to go to the RCC and hoping the WRU will agree and trying to pour pressure on.

TJ wrote:An of course 3 leagues equal places so only 6 for the combined anglowelsh league

i knew you'd enjoy my post TJ

The Pro8 could then take their 6 spots and their share.

I do wonder if it is the WRU v the RRW was it over making some regions development or central contacts.

Just a quick point. What if the ERC go ahead with a HEC competition anyway even if the French and English leave. At the end of this season they will have served their 2 years notice so are entitled to do what they want. What about the Welsh regions? Do they then have to serve a 2 year notice period as well??

good qn. strictly speaking with the FR/Eng withdrawal, a whole new participation agreement needs to be signed. cant sign an extension of something that is completely changing in shareholding/votes etc.

so they probably are fine.

additionally i think wru are the signatories to ERC not WRR.

am seeing tweets that agreement has been reached between all unions...only "finer details" remain to be sorted.

wonder what counts as agreement and what as "finer details"?

if true, good news as will have euro club rugby next year...

am on tenterhooks to hear the terms....

Okay, so let's see.  Let's say the Welsh go back to their one true love - belligerent, bloodthirsty rugby between them and their English friends... and let's say they're entered into an enlarged AP.

And let's say Ireland, Scotland and Italy go it alone.  
That's a humble little 8 team League.
But it's still one of the three Leagues that were negotiating a competition of equal rights

...the rights of three leagues apply - equal billing, wasn't that the deal?  

So Leagues get a share of the BT Euro money, divided equally
Pro12 get their improved domestic Sky deal and have to share it amongst fewer sides - so more money for each
Pro12 get the promised six HC spots per each league.  That's only two that would miss out each year - again - lovely!

Yeah, Wales, go on...just move over to the AP.  It makes sense to me

quinsforever wrote:

am on tenterhooks to hear the terms....

Why quins?  Relax, I'll guarantee you you have a auto number of English entries... absolute guaranteed that.

It's the rest of us that have to worry about the fine print in this new 'fair' dawn.

quinsforever wrote:am seeing tweets that agreement has been reached between all unions...only "finer details" remain to be sorted.

wonder what counts as agreement and what as "finer details"?

if true, good news as will have euro club rugby next year...

am on tenterhooks to hear the terms....

Depends if it is the unions or unions and clubs.

LOL

will be interesting to see how Rabo12 participation agreement renewal goes though in this new acrimonious world order...

lions tour...

RCC betrayal...

just hope they do it the same way ERC did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement so we have stuff to ooh and aah about.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

am on tenterhooks to hear the terms....

Why quins?  Relax, I'll guarantee you you have a auto number of English entries... absolute guaranteed that.

It's the rest of us that have to worry about the fine print in this new 'fair' dawn.

agree. like i said about the negotiations, your tenterhooks have greater downside.

but i reckon its going to be broadly fair.

my bet...6/6/6/ +2 from playoffs, with 1 team guaranteed per country. 1/3 of money to each league, and no-one is worse off.

clubs control commercial aspects, unions together have veto on any major changes. archaic ERC seeding system done away with.

and from the fans perspective, it will look remarkably similar to HC, just a bit more competitive in each group.

quinsforever wrote:LOL

will be interesting to see how Rabo12 participation agreement renewal goes though in this new acrimonious world order...

lions tour...

RCC betrayal...

just hope they do it the same way ERC did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement so we have stuff to ooh and aah about.

Ah, you've got yourself all muddled up again. Let me fix that for you:


"just hope they do it the same way PRL did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement"

Any other difficulties you have just let me know.

You're welcome  

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:LOL

will be interesting to see how Rabo12 participation agreement renewal goes though in this new acrimonious world order...

lions tour...

RCC betrayal...

just hope they do it the same way ERC did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement so we have stuff to ooh and aah about.

Ah, you've got yourself all muddled up again. Let me fix that for you:


"just hope they do it the same way PRL did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement"

Any other difficulties you have just let me know.

You're welcome  

apols, forgot you take umbrage at any criticism of ERC. you're right, no-one at the top of that organisation made any inflammatory statements at all.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:LOL

will be interesting to see how Rabo12 participation agreement renewal goes though in this new acrimonious world order...

lions tour...

RCC betrayal...

just hope they do it the same way ERC did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement so we have stuff to ooh and aah about.

Ah, you've got yourself all muddled up again. Let me fix that for you:


"just hope they do it the same way PRL did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement"

Any other difficulties you have just let me know.

You're welcome  

apols, forgot you take umbrage at any criticism of ERC. you're right, no-one at the top of that organisation made any inflammatory statements at all.

I'm delighted you have acknowledged this. You are ever so slowly becoming more enlightened as you mix with the good folk. Keep it up