Welsh clubs back Anglo-French tournament

by thomh Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Didn't see that coming, though I haven't been following this particularly closely.

by MarcusHalberstram Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:02 am

Rugby World are tweeting that Roger Lewis was fully involved in this. Get the feeling that the only real blood spilled in this cold war has been on these boards, while the game's administrators have knuckled down to sort all this out - at least, that's what I hope!

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:02 am

Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:LOL

will be interesting to see how Rabo12 participation agreement renewal goes though in this new acrimonious world order...

lions tour...

RCC betrayal...

just hope they do it the same way ERC did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement so we have stuff to ooh and aah about.
Ah, you've got yourself all muddled up again. Let me fix that for you:

"just hope they do it the same way PRL did and mostly through public posturing and pronouncement"

Any other difficulties you have just let me know.

You're welcome
apols, forgot you take umbrage at any criticism of ERC. you're right, no-one at the top of that organisation made any inflammatory statements at all.
I'm delighted you have acknowledged this. You are ever so slowly becoming more enlightened as you mix with the good folk. Keep it up

i was being sarcastic. were you?

just in case you werent being sarcastic, google lux erc prl

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:04 am

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Rugby World are tweeting that Roger Lewis was fully involved in this. Get the feeling that the only real blood spilled in this cold war has been on these boards, while the game's administrators have knuckled down to sort all this out - at least, that's what I hope!

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:05 am

"..... i was being sarcastic. were you?.............."

Laugh

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:06 am

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Rugby World are tweeting that Roger Lewis was fully involved in this. Get the feeling that the only real blood spilled in this cold war has been on these boards, while the game's administrators have knuckled down to sort all this out - at least, that's what I hope!

What? You thought we all expected real blood and gunfire in the boardroom?? That's just us entertaining ourselves with metaphors, Marcus. People in expensive suits who sip wine never cuss, we all accept that.

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:10 am

News coming through on RTE that IRFU have five automatic places now. Connacht and Great Blasket Island.

Yeah, I'll take that; reasonable enough I suppose.

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:15 am

yes but thats just to pad out the Rabo once the welsh regions join the AP. they mixed up their TLAs.

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:17 am

The Welsh regions?

Never heard of 'em, ...roll on the Champions Cup! We got business to prove in that there sleek new competition.

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:21 am

i'm really lookin forwards to ire v wales in the 6N this time... Smile

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:26 am

Marquess of Queensberry rules will apply..... as the players stand for the anthems. Of that I assure you. Wink

by lostinwales Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:30 am

Sin é wrote:
TJ wrote:Quins - and which 4 AP teams would have to drop out to let them in?
I bet London Irish get the bullet!

They could join the Rabo. I'd say London Welsh might also be interested. That would be two teams replaced.

Anything to raise the average attendance eh? Laugh

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:36 am

The Attendance Average Champions Cup?

Yeah, not bad. It's a mouthful but I think we might be able to do an Acronym on it: The AACC.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:35 am

doctornickolas wrote:The Welsh regions have always bitten the hand that feeds it so there is no surprise that the snake oil salesmen that run the regions have bent over for the Franglos to undermine the WRU. Their agreement with the WRU runs out at the end of the year. There is nothing to say that these regions in their current form will exist after that. But they are too stupid to realize that.

I would like to see the WRU not renew the participation agreement with them. They can then set up new, proper regions like they should have in the first place. These teams will then get entered in to the Rabo and any new European competition.

The Regions have sold out their Celtic and Italian colleagues as far as I am concerned. I for one feel ashamed. I will never buy another ticket for a Welsh regional game. I was ordering 4 Cardiff Blues shirts for my daughter and nieces but that will not now happen.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:00 am

I think I can hear the fat lady singing. Sad

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:32 am

TJ wrote:Its certainly possible to e the welsh clubs have been offered a preferential deal to break the concensus. However its a risky strategy and the WRU can just withdraw support

I worry for the Dragons in all this. We're 50% owned by the WRU and Rog has already said that his preference is for three regions.

by geoff998rugby Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:33 am

Hearing rumours the Irish are basically saying

'if that is the way you want to play it we are going to agree with the French and English i.e. 6 Pro12 places strickly on merit no places reserved for seperate nations'

So the Welsh could, very easily, be down to 1 European rugby place

by VietGwentRevisited Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:39 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Hearing rumours the Irish are basically saying

'if that is the way you want to play it we are going to agree with the French and English i.e. 6 Pro12 places strickly on merit no places reserved for seperate nations'

So the Welsh could, very easily, be down to 1 European rugby place

Were there not rumours a while back, blamed on PRL trying to divide I think, that Ireland had that stance privately anyway?

by VietGwentRevisited Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:42 am

TJ wrote:Thats the issue with 6/6/6. Too many teams would miss out on a place.

I find it hard to believe the welsh clubs would make this statement without some concessions / bribes.

I think this is posturing from the welsh clubs and intended to rack up the pressure on the unions. Unhelpfull at best

WRU have been offered £60m over 4 years for the TV rights according to Telegraph.

According to The Times Roger Lewis has been leading the negotiations!

by VietGwentRevisited Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:50 am

You two remind me of my grandsons.

by geoff998rugby Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:52 am

VietGwentRevisited wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Hearing rumours the Irish are basically saying

'if that is the way you want to play it we are going to agree with the French and English i.e. 6 Pro12 places strickly on merit no places reserved for seperate nations'

So the Welsh could, very easily, be down to 1 European rugby place
Were there not rumours a while back, blamed on PRL trying to divide I think, that Ireland had that stance privately anyway?

My understanding, only rumour though, is that if this is a case of the Welsh breaking ranks then the Irish are not going to support them havin guaranteed number of places and would be prepared to let league positions alone decide.

Ireland's previous position was to go with some limited country protection but they would not agree with any solution that meant only 2 Irish teams could qualify - that has always been their line in the sand.

by Standulstermen Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:56 am

With the welsh announcement it seems that the IRFU have to look out for themselves now. They need to maintain the three provinces t the top table (performances permitting of course). There is no way if we are looking at 6,6,6 (number the PRL/the beast Smile

) then we need to make sure that one of our guys doesn't lose out if they qualify in one of those positions.

I can't see how this will be a united Celt thing unless the IRFU release a statement today. The longer we hear nothing the mor it seems that the welsh have caved but it is early days. Interesting quote from Wigglesworth in the Irish times saying he thought the qualification would be the best thing to happen to the Rabo

by VietGwentRevisited Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:57 am

Just wondering, when the last two agreements were signed all countries agreed to enter at least one team in the Amlin. Was that just ignored?

Oh and geoff - we will wait and see, I still cannot believe that there have not been advanced discussions with all Unions/Teams. The world though likes to have someone to balem - so that will be us for breaking ranks, when really I suspect that everyone is trying to best protect their own interests and bugger anyone else. But I am an old cynic.

by TJ Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:04 am

VietGwentRevisited wrote:
VietGwentRevisited wrote:You two remind me of my grandsons.
you see, there was a chance for some kind of peace - but instead you are both fighting again.

aye - I forgot
Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

I have added him to my ignore list. sorry for the arguing. We have obviously got under each others skin.

by Sin é Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:08 am

According to BBC Wales bloke on RTE radio this morning, this is a shot at the WRU by the Welsh Regions just prior to their ERC meeting to sort the mess out now.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:12 am

Sin é wrote:According to BBC Wales bloke on RTE radio this morning, this is a shot at the WRU by the Welsh Regions just prior to their ERC meeting to sort the mess out now.

However, it's also reported in the Times that Roger Lewis is fully behind this and that ALL 6 nations have pretty much agreed the deal and are just discussing the finer detail.

Which sort of supports the view that you can't just believe one or two small scraps of information.

by VietGwentRevisited Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:15 am

There has been so much misinformation and rumour - that I reckon we will need a full scale Panorama investigation after the dust has settled to see what actually happened.

Then a full scale judge led inquiry to understand who won and lost.

by geoff998rugby Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:19 am

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Just wondering, when the last two agreements were signed all countries agreed to enter at least one team in the Amlin. Was that just ignored?

Oh and geoff - we will wait and see, I still cannot believe that there have not been advanced discussions with all Unions/Teams. The world though likes to have someone to balem - so that will be us for breaking ranks, when really I suspect that everyone is trying to best protect their own interests and bugger anyone else. But I am an old cynic.

I agree it could be its all been decided and this is just a storm in a tea cup.

Interestingly though an Irish official did make a statement yesterday along the lines of
'If it has to be the top 6 of the Pro12 and no reserved places bring it on'

If the Irish were aware of the Welsh statement then nothing to see here.
If however it is the Welsh breaking ranks then there will be a lot of anger here and I can see us dishing the Welsh given our comparitively stronger position in terms of team quality and crowd pull

by QuickBall Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:21 am

I really can't be ar*ed with this infighting between the regions and the WRU.

If the regions go it alone away from the WRU, then they've lost my support, and any chance of me following regional level rugby in Wales in it's current form. I'd rather the WRU just scrap the regions, start afresh with four new teams owned by the WRU, be done with this cr*p.

If it's the WRU & the regions breaking ranks with the other P12 nations, then it's a sad day for Welsh rugby in general where they follow the coin instead of the good of the game.

It's all profit (money) these days, ridiculous!

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:23 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
VietGwentRevisited wrote:Just wondering, when the last two agreements were signed all countries agreed to enter at least one team in the Amlin. Was that just ignored?

Oh and geoff - we will wait and see, I still cannot believe that there have not been advanced discussions with all Unions/Teams. The world though likes to have someone to balem - so that will be us for breaking ranks, when really I suspect that everyone is trying to best protect their own interests and bugger anyone else. But I am an old cynic.
I agree it could be its all been decided and this is just a storm in a tea cup.

Interestingly though an Irish official did make a statement yesterday along the lines of
'If it has to be the top 6 of the Pro12 and no reserved places bring it on'

If the Irish were aware of the Welsh statement then nothing to see here.
If however it is the Welsh breaking ranks then there will be a lot of anger here and I can see us dishing the Welsh given our comparitively stronger position in terms of team quality and crowd pull

I agree with your statement. However, it smacks of the very thing we've been criticising the English and French for doing - using their population size and viewing figures to make themselves more superior and important. That's a bit two faced IMO. Do 'smaller' nations, in terms of success, population, history in the comp, etc. not get as much of a say or right as the 'bigger' nations?

by **rodders** Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:24 am

Grand job I say boot the Welsh regions from the pro 12 and then go with the 6/6/6 split Cool

.

Rabo Pro 8 has a nice ring to it and Leinster would be glad to see the back of the Ospreys....

by beshocked Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:31 am

The Welsh are a natural partner for the English in a way. Quite a few of the Welsh team have English connections due to the close geographical proximity.

Just look at the success of Swansea and Cardiff in the Premier League in football.

Perhaps in the future the Welsh might do a similar thing in the AP with the Anglo-Welsh cup being scrapped. I would certainly consider it.

by geoff998rugby Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:35 am

Griff IF the Welsh have broken ranks then they leave us with no choice.

by **RDW** Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:01 am

I have removed numerous posts from this thread in an effort to get it back on track.

This is a very emotive and contentious issues as it is - let's not make it worse by making things personal.

by Standulstermen Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:16 am

Simon Thomas ‏@simonrug 44m
Having done a bit more digging this morning, that RRW statement was specifically designed to put pressure on WRU to deliver entry to RCC.

Welshists might know more about how reliable this guy is but if he is right then welsh rugby could be in for a seismic shift

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 am

Standulstermen wrote:Simon Thomas ‏@simonrug 44m
Having done a bit more digging this morning, that RRW statement was specifically designed to put pressure on WRU to deliver entry to RCC.

Welshists might know more about how reliable this guy is but if he is right then welsh rugby could be in for a seismic shift

That was my initial thinking, but so many conflicting views it's impossible to know what the truth is until we have a response from the Unions. If it is true, the Welsh regions may have just shot themselves in the foot.
Hopefully we will know which way is up by this evening.

by geoff998rugby Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:29 am

Have to say regardless of personal views this whole saga has shown Rugby in a very negative light.

Various people, spouting off in Public, when they should be discussing in private has not done our game any credit whatsoever.

by TJ Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:32 am

I agree Geoff.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:38 am

The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.

by beshocked Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:39 am

Geoff I agree but not for the reasons you say.

It shows the conflicts in rugby in a brutal light - be that of the clubs, the likes of Sky,BT, the unions. It's all about self interest and control. Everyone wants what they feel is best for them. The divisions are there for all to see.

Whilst this battle is going on the countries not in the elite circle are left out in the cold. I want to see Germany,Belgium,Romania,Russia etc all involved in a 2nd tier competition.

I think there is potential for a successful conclusion to this saga but only if the finger pointing stops and a solution is found that saves European club rugby.

I am pleased with the Welsh clubs because their move means there is more of a chance of a successful resolution.

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I have removed numerous posts from this thread in an effort to get it back on track.

This is a very emotive and contentious issues as it is - let's not make it worse by making things personal.

I was wondering why everyone seemed so polite to each other here. You bloody well cut out the good stuff!!!!

And me ready with me "Perfect Insults for Perfect Putdowns" reference book.

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:41 am

Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.

to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

by **RDW** Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:41 am

Do the RRF actually have much power? As in if the WRU told them they weren’t joining the RCC, could they do anything about it!?

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:42 am

SecretFly wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I have removed numerous posts from this thread in an effort to get it back on track.

This is a very emotive and contentious issues as it is - let's not make it worse by making things personal.
I was wondering why everyone seemed so polite to each other here. You bloody well cut out the good stuff!!!!

And me ready with me "Perfect Insults for Perfect Putdowns" reference book.

me too! gutted. was settling down with my mid-morning coffee and a sticky bun...very disappointing Sad

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:45 am

quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.
to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

I'm yet to be convinced about Richie, but I agree, quins. This could simply be the Welsh regions acting as conduit for PRL. If true it's a bit pathetic.

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:45 am

beshocked wrote:
I am pleased with the Welsh clubs because their move means there is more of a chance of a successful resolution.

That's not altogether certain that that Welsh regional move suggests a successful resolution. All it seems is that they played their hand early before an ERC meeting. If it was known they were going to do it by all concerned then it might suggest a pleasing end (for everyone!) is approaching. But if it was a slick-willy move without the knowledge of alleged allies then the schit might still hit the fan, as we would then see what cards the others might deal out (and some of those possibles have already been mentioned above)

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:46 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the RRF actually have much power? As in if the WRU told them they weren’t joining the RCC, could they do anything about it!?

would be a poop-show for the WRR. if the participation agreement between WRR and WRU isnt renewed by december, then the welsh clubs would in theory no longer be authorised to participate in any union-run leagues.

when some of the welsh teams sat out a season and played AP teams, those matches were all classed as "friendlies".

would be financial argmageddon for the welsh clubs as WRU holds all the ultimate power. and the clubs are also financially weak.

so this is a brave/foolish/desperate move by the welsh clubs if they dont know if they will get Roger's support.

by TJ Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:46 am

quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.
to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

Dodson ( sru) seems to be remaining sensible as well and a dignified silence from the IRFU. Ritchie is coming out of this well tho for sure

by quinsforever Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:47 am

Munchkin wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.
to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.
I'm yet to be convinced about Richie, but I agree, quins. This could simply be the Welsh regions acting as conduit for PRL. If true it's a bit pathetic.

the welsh clubs clearly have their own agenda here too. but their actions certainly suit prl/lnr.

by Standulstermen Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:47 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do the RRF actually have much power? As in if the WRU told them they weren’t joining the RCC, could they do anything about it!?

Not really, if the WRU remove their funding and the participation agreement isn't signed (they lose the Rabo too) then they would go under. That's why it's so important to know what the WRU's position is. I cannot see the WRU not being in the loop on this one

by SecretFly Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:48 am

quinsforever wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The statements, and the timing of the statements smacks of PRL. Totally lacking in class.
to be honest i was expecting a prl statement the day before the erc meeting, as that seems to be their modus operandi. maybe they outsourced it to wrr this time. i dont think anyone sees this whole episode as anything other than a dogfight. ironically the only classy actor in this drama so far is Ian Ritchie at the RFU.

The fence sitter? I'm not fond of fence sitters really. They have a habit of dropping off the fence onto the winning side and declaring themselves satisfied that their non-committal ideas were finally listened to.

Hmmm....

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