Eng v Aus match thread + build up

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

First topic message reminder :

Chance to chat about the game.
I think it will be a real cracker with England to take it by around 8 points or more.
I know every game is important but the management must have this penciled in as a must win because they can win it if they play it right.

[ChequeredJersey]

Yes I am talking about the present, I can do a review of his England matches too if you like, but I assumed from your comments that you had watched Brown recently and that you were referring to something actually relevant. I realise now this was foolish

[Hood83]

I actually agree mainly with GE's point about us being too lateral. Tomkins is a horrible crabber. 12 trees can straighten but it's always a little ponderous as well.

[ChequeredJersey]

Anyway, re Brown we will see, won't we?

I agree we need to pressurise Cooper, but the best way to do that is to pressurise Genia at the ruck, which we are well equipped to do, and test his new found willingness to tackle by sending Billy V at him with Robshaw in Support to guarantee we get the ball back. Then even if Hooper does his job and makes the tackle on Billy, he can't contest the ball and we get another run at Cooper. I want to see Lawes really get at Genia, and one thing I think we miss with no Care or B Youngs is a scrummie who could wind him up as his temperament this year has looked a tad suspect according to the Aussies on GAG and the Roar

[Hound of Harrow]

CJ - we do need to put pressure on Genia too so we need to do more of what we did v NZ and commit numbers to the breakdown.

[ChequeredJersey]

Numbers and appropriate intensity, speed and body positioning

[Taylorman]

Coopers the one to watch now. Has some good confidence about him. I think Ewen macs brought him in nicely. Looks to be handling everything far more professionally now. Hence the vice captaincy.

Folau will go well in the north as well.

[GloriousEmpire]

I really do think a lot of lessons have been learned by the England coaches and players after Cardiff. Most importantly the intensity with how you have to play the game at this level, and an emphasis on taking the right decisions at the right time.

It's an interesting Aussie team, not least in the change of captain and vice captain, which could well backfire. Sticking AAC on the wing is a waste, though Kurudrani is a dangerous customer.

I would have liked to see an out and out 7 in the team to put some pressure on Cooper. Not knocking Robshaw, but he's not that type of player, and we can't allow Cooper to settle into a rhythm.

Farrell will need to marshal our backline defence as we don't have any other leaders in there, which worries me. The Aussies are great at creating space and gaps.

Unless our forwards really can stick it to Aus I'm a bit apprehensive tbh.

If they've had to learn about intensity just last year then there are big problems of these players, coaches.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Who's the referee for this?

[BamBam]

Clancy, I believe

[Geordie]

Ooh did i casue a bit of a stir?  

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Ah, Clownshoes himself.

I mean George Clancy, GF, not you!

[BamBam]

Ooh did i casue a bit of a stir?  

I don't think *you* caused anything at all, hence the stir!

[Geordie]

Ah well thats nice to hear...i like to have my say but dont like to offend people...thats never the intention.

I still believe, that whilst theres a few unproven youngsters in there, we have a make up that if we click we could be quite impressive. Lets see what happens...

[BamBam]

Really can't wait for Saturday now for our game, but am very slightly disappointed that there are no other games televised, almost feels as if the first day of the AIs should be an all day international rugby fest!

[Hood83]

OK, so here's my question for everyone - do we think that these selections represent a clear addressing of our bigger problems during the 6Ns? And do they represent a clear understanding of the opposition's strengths and weaknesses? Not sure I can answer the second point, but re the first I think our problems are/were:

1. Poor rucking. Against Scotland our rucking looked top notch, fast, low and aggressive. But Scotland were very poor in this area, a fact seemingly proven as our rucking went backwards throughout the tournament. In the end, it was the usual slow, turgid, ruck-flopping we're used to. Retaining T Youngs suggests to me Lancaster recognises his strength here, and recognises that we have previously over-rated our scrum's effectiveness - I think this is a positive conclusion. I think Launchbury and Lawes have been picked similarly as locks seen to get around the pitch and ruck effectively. However, I think he's got this wrong. Attwood's engine isn't as good, but his additional power means he normally cleans people out very quickly and efficiently. I think he would have been a better pick than Lawes (despite the latter's form).


2. Fringe defending at rucks - Pitiful during the 6Ns and particularly against Wales who just trucked it up close time after time for metre after metre. B Vunipola's defence round the fringes looks a step up from Wood at 8, but again, for me, the best defender in this area is Attwood. Even when he looks too upright he seem to be far better than our other locks at forcing attackers back from the gain-line.

3. Lack of tries - We just didn't threaten enough, enough of the time. As good as Manu was in patches, if anything he proved that you can't always run over the opposition. My feeling with Tomkins is that Lancaster thinks you can straighten up, then pass round the defence, but I think this is also wrong-thinking. You need players who can threaten the line, and can convince the opposition of this. Try and pass round a set defence, sprayed out because they have no concern of a sniping run from 9,10 and 12 and you just get a lot of interceptions. If Oz use a rush defence (do they?) these centres won't work.

4. Lack of forward power - One step forward, one step back? the Vunipolas won't harm in this regard, but the second row is quite willowy and not exactly power packed. If he wants to move Oz about, perhaps this is fine. But you need to earn the right to move it wide, and I'm not convinced these locks can do that.

Attwood for Lawes would have been my preference, and anyone for Tomkins. Other than that, it's OK.

[quinsforever]

a little something to get us in the mood...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20315395

[ChequeredJersey]

If the second row is willowy now, what was it in the 6N? Lawes definitely has more power, this season, than Parling, and Attwood shores it up later on? I'm not saying it's stacked with power but I can't feasibly see an argument for "1 step back"

[Hood83]

If the second row is willowy now, what was it in the 6N? Lawes definitely has more power, this season, than Parling, and Attwood shores it up later on? I'm not saying it's stacked with power but I can't feasibly see an argument for "1 step back"

Fair point, I mean a step forward in seemingly recognising the issue, then a step back for ignoring it again. Lawes I can see is possibly marginally more powerful than parling, not really as a carrier though, they're both middling. Attwood would have been better IMO, but then he has very little experience at this level.

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

Got a bad feeling for England now after reading this mornings papers.
Acting like they already won the game!!!

[markb]

It's always interesting the ideas that gather momentum on this forum. Attwood should certainly be in the squad and I would more than happily see him start, he's a quality player, but this belief held by certain posters that he is some sort of monster carrying enforcer distinct from all the other players in the premiership just hasn't been evident from his performances over the last couple of seasons.

[Scrumpy]

Predictions anyone?

My guess is Eng 28 Aus 23, closer than I thought it would be a few weeks ago but I'd be happy with that.

[stub]

Got a bad feeling for England now after reading this mornings papers.
Acting like they already won the game!!!

Who are the culprits Dave?

[stub]

Predictions anyone?

My guess is Eng 28 Aus 23, closer than I thought it would be a few weeks ago but I'd be happy with that.

Yes close..

Something like 19 - 15 to England.

 

[Scrumpy]

Was it in the Western Mail?

 

[stub]

OK, so here's my question for everyone - do we think that these selections represent a clear addressing of our bigger problems during the 6Ns? And do they represent a clear understanding of the opposition's strengths and weaknesses? Not sure I can answer the second point, but re the first I think our problems are/were:

1. Poor rucking. Against Scotland our rucking looked top notch, fast, low and aggressive. But Scotland were very poor in this area, a fact seemingly proven as our rucking went backwards throughout the tournament. In the end, it was the usual slow, turgid, ruck-flopping we're used to. Retaining T Youngs suggests to me Lancaster recognises his strength here, and recognises that we have previously over-rated our scrum's effectiveness - I think this is a positive conclusion. I think Launchbury and Lawes have been picked similarly as locks seen to get around the pitch and ruck effectively. However, I think he's got this wrong. Attwood's engine isn't as good, but his additional power means he normally cleans people out very quickly and efficiently. I think he would have been a better pick than Lawes (despite the latter's form).


2. Fringe defending at rucks - Pitiful during the 6Ns and particularly against Wales who just trucked it up close time after time for metre after metre. B Vunipola's defence round the fringes looks a step up from Wood at 8, but again, for me, the best defender in this area is Attwood. Even when he looks too upright he seem to be far better than our other locks at forcing attackers back from the gain-line.

3. Lack of tries - We just didn't threaten enough, enough of the time. As good as Manu was in patches, if anything he proved that you can't always run over the opposition. My feeling with Tomkins is that Lancaster thinks you can straighten up, then pass round the defence, but I think this is also wrong-thinking. You need players who can threaten the line, and can convince the opposition of this. Try and pass round a set defence, sprayed out because they have no concern of a sniping run from 9,10 and 12 and you just get a lot of interceptions. If Oz use a rush defence (do they?) these centres won't work.

4. Lack of forward power - One step forward, one step back? the Vunipolas won't harm in this regard, but the second row is quite willowy and not exactly power packed. If he wants to move Oz about, perhaps this is fine. But you need to earn the right to move it wide, and I'm not convinced these locks can do that.

Attwood for Lawes would have been my preference, and anyone for Tomkins. Other than that, it's OK.

I've got a feeling that the lineup tomorrow has the potential to threaten defences more than last season's lineup. Specifically IF Ashton has found form again and IF Yarde can stepup and a whole lot of other IFS....

[GloriousEmpire]

Got a bad feeling for England now after reading this mornings papers.
Acting like they already won the game!!!

Who are the culprits Dave?

Surely not...arrogance...from an England camp? Have they shot the promotional victory video yet?

[No 7&1/2]

Not supporting England again soon GE. You were a year ago! You do flip flap don't you?

[Hood83]

It's always interesting the ideas that gather momentum on this forum.  Attwood should certainly be in the squad and I would more than happily see him start, he's a quality player, but this belief held by certain posters that he is some sort of monster carrying enforcer distinct from all the other players in the premiership just hasn't been evident from his performances over the last couple of seasons.

This is true, I'm not sure we have that player at lock unfortunately. However, he is very, very good in a number of other areas equally important for us and so far under-served - rucking, scrummaging and close defence. For those alone I'd have him. His carrying I'd say is decent but not exactly destructive.

[stub]

a little something to get us in the mood...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20315395

It would be good to see a bit of that tomorrow quins!  

[Hood83]

Got a bad feeling for England now after reading this mornings papers.
Acting like they already won the game!!!

Who are the culprits Dave?

Surely not...arrogance...from an England camp? Have they shot the promotional victory video yet?

One of our few successful pilferings from you Kiwis. Who do you reckon will win this one anyway GE?

[The Saint]

Really can't wait for Saturday now for our game, but am very slightly disappointed that there are no other games televised, almost feels as if the first day of the AIs should be an all day international rugby fest!

Why do England begin their Autumn a week before everyone else though? Is that the PRL's say-so?
On a more positive note for you, Japan vs NZ is on tv, I think Canada are also playing NZ Maori.

[BamBam]

Really can't wait for Saturday now for our game, but am very slightly disappointed that there are no other games televised, almost feels as if the first day of the AIs should be an all day international rugby fest!

Why do England begin their Autumn a week before everyone else though? Is that the PRL's say-so?
On a more positive note for you, Japan vs NZ is on tv, I think Canada are also playing NZ Maori.

 
No idea why we start earlier.
 
Japan vs NZ is on at 5am, I'm probably going to be staggering home at about that kind of time, definitely not a rugby watching hour

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Oddschecker
England 8/13 4/7 8/13 8/11 8/13 4/6 8/13 4/6 8/11 13/19 4/6 4/6 8/11 8/13 4/5 3/5 13/19 3/5 7/10 3/4 10/13 7/9 34-37
Australia 11/8 5/4 13/10 11/10 13/10 11/8 13/10 13/10 11/8 23/17 5/4 5/4 13/10 5/4 11/10 23/17 23/17 5/4 5/4 25/19 23/17 25/19 28-31
Draw 18 20 20 22 20 16 16 22 18 20 18 16 18 18 20 18 20 35/2 20 15 22 19
http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/england-v-australia/winner

[doctor_grey]

Just speaking for myself, I have no idea why England are beginning a week early.  I agree with BabBam.  I enjoy the all day rugby-fest.  As in:  "No, honey, I can't get off the couch to loofa your back.  Ooooh, look at Twelvetrees shimey through that hoooole".

[The Saint]

I prefer those days too, especially when you have various games on live TV and in different hemispheres. Those days aren't for leaving the house though, 6 Nations however, that's a day out! One game on after the other too, you can hardly move in Cardiff on those days.

Anyway lads, Saint is supporting England through thick and thin during this series.  

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

The Times,the BBC, Lancaster and Robshaw all stinking of arrogance ,with swooping comments on winning the World Cup and how good they are and how weak the Aussies are up front.
 
why do they do this to themselves?

[Hood83]

The Times,the BBC, Lancaster and Robshaw all stinking of arrogance ,with swooping comments on winning the World Cup and how good they are and how weak the Aussies are up front.
 
why do they do this to themselves?

Perhaps they're just deluded optimists...

[doctor_grey]

The Times,the BBC, Lancaster and Robshaw all stinking of arrogance ,with swooping comments on winning the World Cup and how good they are and how weak the Aussies are up front.
 
why do they do this to themselves?

Perhaps they're just deluded optimists...

ooooh. that good. that real good.......

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I prefer those days too, especially when you have various games on live TV and in different hemispheres. Those days aren't for leaving the house though, 6 Nations however, that's a day out! One game on after the other too, you can hardly move in Cardiff on those days.

Anyway lads, Saint is supporting England through thick and thin during this series.  

When I'm ensconced and cosseted on my cosy sofa at home, I often think how the other HNs are willing on the ABE side. It's really quite depressing to hear The St talking like that.

[stub]

I prefer those days too, especially when you have various games on live TV and in different hemispheres. Those days aren't for leaving the house though, 6 Nations however, that's a day out! One game on after the other too, you can hardly move in Cardiff on those days.

Anyway lads, Saint is supporting England through thick and thin during this series.  

Great to hear Saint!  

[stub]

I prefer those days too, especially when you have various games on live TV and in different hemispheres. Those days aren't for leaving the house though, 6 Nations however, that's a day out! One game on after the other too, you can hardly move in Cardiff on those days.

Anyway lads, Saint is supporting England through thick and thin during this series.  

When I'm ensconced and cosseted on my cosy sofa at home, I often think how the other HNs are willing on the ABE side. It's really quite depressing to hear The St talking like that.

Portnoy - so cynical!!  

[Hood83]

The Times,the BBC, Lancaster and Robshaw all stinking of arrogance ,with swooping comments on winning the World Cup and how good they are and how weak the Aussies are up front.
 
why do they do this to themselves?

Perhaps they're just deluded optimists...

ooooh.  that good.  that real good.......

I aim to please  

Saint - good to hear we have your support!!

[Duty281]

The Times,the BBC, Lancaster and Robshaw all stinking of arrogance ,with swooping comments on winning the World Cup and how good they are and how weak the Aussies are up front.
 
why do they do this to themselves?

Because England have ambition, and are the only NH team to truly believe that their nation can win the World Cup.

Looks like over the next couple of weeks, England will show the rest of the NH how to beat the SH teams....again.

Arrogance and ambition in abundance! You do need both after all.

The Sweet Chariot all set for the long haul!

Come on England!

[ChequeredJersey]

Why must the press say people claimed they would make Twickers "a fortress" with "" just like that, when the interview clearly never uses those words? It pains me to agree with GE too much, but the press in this country need sorting out and I think the Regulation decree has come not an instant too soon

[stub]

[quote="ChequeredJersey"]Why must the press say people claimed they would make Twickers "a fortress" with "" just like that, when the interview clearly never uses those words? It pains me to agree with GE too much, but the press in this country need sorting out and I think the Regulation decree has come not an instant too soon
[/quote

Yes, I have to agree CJ, our press are truly awful.

[Breadvan]

The Times,the BBC, Lancaster and Robshaw all stinking of arrogance ,with swooping comments on winning the World Cup and how good they are and how weak the Aussies are up front.
 
why do they do this to themselves?

Confidence maybe? Want arrogance? Read the Western hatemail...

[GloriousEmpire]

Got a bad feeling for England now after reading this mornings papers.
Acting like they already won the game!!!

Who are the culprits Dave?

Surely not...arrogance...from an England camp? Have they shot the promotional victory video yet?

One of our few successful pilferings from you Kiwis. Who do you reckon will win this one anyway GE?

Well I was picking Australia to walk it. But you've all convinced me that England's new direct and skillful Backline will be too much for them. So England by 20? They're home right? And winning at home is easy?

[doctor_grey]

Hey, hold the phone a minute Tex. I am not hyping our backline. How it will function is a mystery to me. My proposed game plan - which cannot fail if executed per my direction - is to not allow any back outside the 9 to touch the ball in the first half. Period. Only excuse is after Australia kicks off after the first four or five England tries. Only when England have a comfortable lead should the forwards allow the England backs to play.

[ChequeredJersey]

Unless Australia get the ball and clear to Brown. Which is fine by the gameplan because:

A) Brown is all to intents and purposes a forward who can catch
B) Brown will never kick the ball back
C) Brown will never pass to a back

[Hood83]

Got a bad feeling for England now after reading this mornings papers.
Acting like they already won the game!!!

Who are the culprits Dave?

Surely not...arrogance...from an England camp? Have they shot the promotional victory video yet?

One of our few successful pilferings from you Kiwis. Who do you reckon will win this one anyway GE?

Well I was picking Australia to walk it. But you've all convinced me that England's new direct and skillful Backline will be too much for them. So England by 20? They're home right? And winning at home is easy?

I guess you haven't been reading my posts then. Oz by less than 10.

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