England 15 for Argentina

by Tiger/Chief Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

I'd go for a few changes rather than wholesale! Gone are the days of the Argentinians being a easy game!

1. Vunipola
2. Hartkey
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Wade
15. Brown

by Triangulation Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:54 pm

I read somewhere that Yarde has a hip niggle. Wade could be coming in on his wing. Or of course Ashton could be getting dropped.

Or none of the above.

Why is Burrell retained? What's the point?

He is not a bench option

by fa0019 Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:55 pm

predicting another 0-20 massacre tri???

by BamBam Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:00 pm

possibly Hartley as well GF .. Youngs Mrs' is due to pop apparently

by Geordie Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:22 pm

Burrell offers a bit of Tuilagis power ball in hand...if things aren't working with Twelvetrees and Tomkins he might offer a more direct power game off the bench...

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:44 am

Looks like it could be a whole new front row & Wade coming in on the wing. Yahoo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10431781/England-v-Argentina-Stuart-Lancaster-rings-changes-as-David-Wilson-comes-in-for-Dan-Cole.html

by Geordie Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:28 am

Very interesting Hartley and Wilson in.

Also...not the best photo...is that Twelvetrees getting handed off by Wilson aswell... Erm

by Triangulation Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:29 am

fa0019 wrote:predicting another 0-20 massacre tri???

No.

I have apologised to anyone who was annoyed by me - on at least two threads for my overly pessimistic stance pre Cook Cup match.

Still if it rains as is predicted i will take any kind of win.

It will be frustrating if the Argies drag us into another arm wrestle. The rain will help that and the press will then be on our backs. Again.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:35 am

If it rains I think we should have the players in Farrel and Twelvetrees to play for territory. That's not to say if there's a chance to counter from a turnover we should just kick it away regardless. We need to show we can play smart rugby. Only fools run it every time or kick every time. Personally even with rain I expect us to continue on from the 2nd half of the Aus game and look to score some tries.

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:41 am

If we are to beat the All Blacks (again Very Happy

) then will have to score tries, so we might as well go for it against Argentina once/and if we can build a little lead.

Very pleased for Wilson if he is starting.

by Bathman_in_London Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:54 am

That could be a very interesting front row, I am pleased for Wilson, I hope he really makes the most of this rare start.

Its nice and sunny in London today, I don't think the forecast is great for the weekend but I hope we try and get Wade and Yarde into the game and try and play some rugby.

by Barney McGrew did it Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:10 am

Slightly warming to SL if this is correct, as it's the 'horses for courses' approach I favour - where you need a big, scrummaging FR you pick one (Arg, SA...), and a more mobile one against the more girly packs (like Aus). Surprised Attwood was sent home in that case tho'. As for Wade, his selection is pleasing but irrelevant - this is an England vs Argies game, forecast in the wet, so the backs won't see the ball (apart from Farrell who'll kick it, and 12T who'll just drop it).

by Triangulation Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:27 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Slightly warming to SL if this is correct, as it's the 'horses for courses' approach I favour - where you need a big, scrummaging FR you pick one (Arg, SA...), and a more mobile one against the more girly packs (like Aus). Surprised Attwood was sent home in that case tho'. As for Wade, his selection is pleasing but irrelevant - this is an England vs Argies game, forecast in the wet, so the backs won't see the ball (apart from Farrell who'll kick it, and 12T who'll just drop it).

Correct. The forecast is for "squally heavy rain"

Fecking great.

We have no chance to really see how Wade goes. We cannot expext Twelvetrees to fizz out long passes in these conditions either.

We will have no chance to get a good interpassing support play game going. It is going to be all about kicking and set piece.

Basically we can write this game off.

This is terrible preparation for the ABs against whom a solely kicking and set piece game will come up very short of even being competitive.

To compete or beat the Abs well need something close to an all court game.

To expect us to produce said game for the first time this AI series against them is frankly expecting close to the impossible.

Therefore we can write off the ABs game now as a loss.

Feck

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:32 am

Triangulation wrote:Correct. The forecast is for "squally heavy rain"

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:35 am

We need a roof at HQ

by englandglory4ever Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:42 am

England must look for near perfection in their set piece plays. Argies were far superior to Nz in this area. I like the proposed new front row for this game. Do hope wade bumps Ashton out too.

by BamBam Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:47 am

Foden on the wing and no Wade/Yarde??

Dickson still in ahead of Youngs??

picard

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:49 am

England (v Argentina, QBE International, Saturday, 2.30pm, Twickenham Stadium, live on Sky Sports 2 HD & 3D)

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 19 caps)
14 Chris Ashton (Saracens, 35 caps) Laugh

13 Joel Tomkins (Saracens, 1 cap)
12 Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 6 caps)
11 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 32 caps) Headscratch

10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 17 caps)
9 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 10 caps) Shocked

1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 13 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 48 caps)
3 David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 12 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 23 caps)
6 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 21 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 18 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 3 caps)

Replacements

16 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps
17 Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints, 18 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 41 caps)
19 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
20 Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 13 caps)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps)
22 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps) furious

Why?????

Maybe they have one eye on the weather but Ashton is given another chance!!! FFS.

by BamBam Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:50 am

And Goode on the bench?? We already have 2 bloody FBs in the starting line up, how would Eastmond/Burrell/my nan not be better replacements than Goode

by BamBam Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:51 am

Oh, by the sounds of it, Wade and Yarde were both unfit Sad

ignore my earlier outburst about Foden and Ashton

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:53 am

Eastmonds must be wondering what he has done wrong seeing as he was fantastic during the summer tour, should be on the bench instead of Goode as it gives us some options.

by BamBam Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:54 am

Dickson and Goode the question marks for me, especially in light of Youngs play off the bench last week for Dickson.

Perfectly happy for Marler to get the start and be tested against a solid Argentina front row, with Corbs coming on for the last half hour to get himself going before next week.

Wade and Yarde both being injured is just sod's law, Ashton is a lucky boy

by Geordie Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:56 am

Well i didnt see some of those calls coming.
Glad marler is given a go...in fact i like the front row...

Nice to see Foden back mind...on form he's class.

Fair enough if Yarde and Wade have minor injuries.

Surprised burrell is not there mind..and Eastmond come to think of it.

Also...for me Parling starts or nothing...he's not an impact player from the bench.

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:00 am

I'm with Geordie, not against Foden on the wing just was unexpected.

But Goode, why? he offers nothing imo as we know what he can and can't do already.

by fa0019 Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:03 am

Goode offers a midfield and 3/4 option if needs me. Any other ENG player able to do the same.

To be honest I don't see why they can't just throw in another specialist centre for instance and use Goode as your backup flyhalf too.

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:07 am

fa0019 wrote:Goode offers a midfield and 3/4 option if needs me. Any other ENG player able to do the same.

To be honest I don't see why they can't just throw in another specialist centre for instance and use Goode as your backup flyhalf too.

But Flood is there already.

by Geordie Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:09 am

FA,

I would say "technically" Eastmond can cover pretty much all the backline. And is a more exciting prospect than Goode.

by BamBam Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:10 am

If either Foden or Ashton was to get injured, would anyone want to see Goode on the wing? Although I imagine Brown would go there and Goode would go to full back Sad

He hasn't got the experience at centre to be a good option there either.

Would much rather see Eastmond who could cover either centre spot, and be a decent fill in on the wing, with Foden being FB cover obviously

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:12 am

As I said we know what Goode can do (safe option), Eastmond needs game time and this was a chance to try him out at Twickers seeing as Wade and Yarde are both injuried.

by Bathman_in_London Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:14 am

Goode on the bench...

So we have 2 FB's starting, a 12 who has played 10 before and as well as Flood on the bench we need another 10/15 option?!

Very odd call, I do like SL but I don't tend to follow his line of thinking. It seems to be very hard for some players to be dropped whereas others seem to soon disappear.

Still, the pack could be interesting, I don't see the point of Parling on the bench though, I agree with Geordie there. Launchberry or Lawes would have more impact, or he could have just kept Attwood, I would have thought this would be the perfect game for him.

The thought of watching that team in the wet doesn't excite me I have to say...

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:23 am

"The thought of watching that team in the wet doesn't excite me I have to say...."

Ditto

by nlpnlp Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:27 am

Ok Yarde and Wade are injured - but do we really not have another wing option other than sticking a fullback out there?

I can understand keeping Dickson and giving him another go, lets see if he is good enough at this level or not. We know what Youngs and Care can do, and neither has nailed down the 9 spot yet. I am not saying Dickson is the answer but lets give him a run of games and see if he is the answer or not.

by Barney McGrew did it Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:28 am

All pretty predictable since SL gets a nose-bleed if he selects more than 1 new player at a time. Foden can do a job on the wing, but won’t be needed. A back-line of Dickson, Farrell, 12T and Tomkins must be one of the least feared in test rugby. Probably defend ok though, and that’s all that matters after all! The excitement of a back 3 of Wade, Yarde and Foden was just too much for the Gods of rugby, how very dare England even think of running the ball.

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:30 am

I like SL but his selections can be very frustrating at times.

by Geordie Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:32 am

Nlp, your showing common sense about Dickson and are correct. Everyone is claiming Twelvetrees or other players need a few games and shouldnt be dropped after just one game...so its only fair that this is applied to Dickson aswell...he is the form SH in the prem after all.

by gregortree Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:43 am

SL is also holding some experience on the bench to come on ~ 60 mins to close out if necessary.
That way he can further assess the relative newbies like 12t and Dickson and Wilson one more time.

by VietGwentRevisited Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:00 pm

You have 5 players capped by the B&I Lions on that bench. In fact quite possibly the strongest bench England have put out in many a year - even with the presence of Alex Goode.

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:02 pm

But B+I Lions Caps are overrated these days imo.

England beat Aus last week, no biggy. Very Happy

by Mad for Chelsea Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:10 pm

given the injuries to Yarde and Wade the Foden selection on the wing makes sense. I'm not even sure there's another out-and-out winger in the EPS to come in, and there's no way you can pick someone who hasn't at least trained with the squad a little. Seems Wade was going to play, but has a tight hamstring.

On the other changes, Corbs and Parling eased back in, expect them to start against NZ at least, but as they're just back from injury having them on a bench is a sensible call. While I understand the lack of impact argument re Parling, I think sometimes impact is overstated, while let's not forget Parling is a fine player and a Lion to boot.

As a couple said, also makes sense to give Dickson a run of games. I've felt for a while England's scrum halves tend to have good impact off the bench, but bar the odd one-off effort haven't really imposed themselves when starting.

Like many, I like the starting front row.

The only selection I would querry would be Goode, as though I feel he's a very good footballer, and sometimes harshly criticised on here, I don't see the need to have three FBs in the matchday squad...

by sirtidychris Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:25 pm

With yarde and wade injured this is the right call, we have to bear in mind we are playing the best team in the world next week and they have a massive chip on thier shoulder from last year, this is no time to be blooding more players when we already have a very inexperienced back line. This is about settling the team as much as possible so we are cohesive next week. Looking forward to seeing Corbs, Cole, Youngs x2 and Morgan come on with 20 to go.

by Triangulation Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:27 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:given the injuries to Yarde and Wade the Foden selection on the wing makes sense. I'm not even sure there's another out-and-out winger in the EPS to come in, and there's no way you can pick someone who hasn't at least trained with the squad a little. Seems Wade was going to play, but has a tight hamstring.

On the other changes, Corbs and Parling eased back in, expect them to start against NZ at least, but as they're just back from injury having them on a bench is a sensible call. While I understand the lack of impact argument re Parling, I think sometimes impact is overstated, while let's not forget Parling is a fine player and a Lion to boot.

As a couple said, also makes sense to give Dickson a run of games. I've felt for a while England's scrum halves tend to have good impact off the bench, but bar the odd one-off effort haven't really imposed themselves when starting.

Like many, I like the starting front row.

The only selection I would querry would be Goode, as though I feel he's a very good footballer, and sometimes harshly criticised on here, I don't see the need to have three FBs in the matchday squad...

+1

Very sensible and i believe accurate analysis.

Having the kicking, catching "footballing" skills in the side of Farrell, Twelvetrees, Brown, Foden, Flood and Goode on the bench well and truly covers us for the boring kickfest we can only realistically play in the sodding wet anyway.

I for one am glad that Wade and Yarde are not going to be harshly judged for lack of involvement in a wet kickfest of a match.

Let them come back in when we can actually play some rugby past the 10.

All of that being said we really need Twelvetrees and Tomkins to step up in terms of midfield carrying and punching through the gainline if not dazzling back play.

We cannot burden the pack with all of that job as well as all the other set piece and other carrying work.

by EnglishReign Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:31 pm

Shame we can never build momentum with our best 15 in these tests. Will still be a good win on Saturday, though.

by rosbif Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:34 pm

I think SL has missed a trick with Goode and Flood on the bench they can both cover FH, better to give experience to a winger/FB like May with 20 minutes to go

by Bristolian Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:36 pm

Like the look of the starting pack, Hartley should be our starting Hooker anyway, pleased Wilson is being looked at, Marler too.

Not sure about the backs, 36 is a class player so should get some games even if he has a couple of bad ones, whereas Tomkins... lets just say I've not yet seen him play for Saracens and thought "he looks international class". That said, I suppose it is harsh, and also unwise, to judge on one game, so lets have another look at him (and Dickson). My gut feeling though is that the backs look...disjointed.

Vietgwent I'm not quite sure I agree with you about the strength of the bench, think its a bit of a curates' egg. I agree about Goode (if he's going with 3 FBs in the 23, I'd actually prefer Watson), but I'd also replace Morgan who needs not only game time for his club at 8, but also to lose a stone I think. Also, I'd have preferred Attwood to Parling, though that one is purely personal preference.

All in all, I suppose if you're going to look at new players/combinations, there are not too many chances to do so in international rugby, as every game matters, so no disrespect intended to Argentina, but of the 3 November games this was the one to do it (not as good as NZ or AUS, and also not as good as the ARG of circa-2007 or 2011).

by ultra Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:39 pm

Just got to keep telling myself that Lancaster knows better than me! Forwards seem good, pleased to see Wilson getting a good go.......the backs just make me yawn. Ah well, I don't expect a great game but an england win nontheless.

by sirtidychris Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:48 pm

Feel bad that the argies have no figallo, no fernadez-lobbe no juan martin hernadez, basically there 3 best players. Also new coach, rifts in the squad and a long losing streak if we dont win this one at home then its not good.

by Geordie Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:57 pm

Is Wilson looking a bit leaner - ie Fitter? Has this coincided with his better performances this year and last?

by Scrumpy Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Wilson looking a bit leaner - ie Fitter? Has this coincided with his better performances this year and last?

Loser fitting shirts! thumbsup

by sirtidychris Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:03 pm

Maybe, he's still square, has no neck and looks like he eats babies. I think 28 is around the peak of a props powers and he's taken to the new scrumming laws like a duck to water, Bath definately like ball playing props though and maybe this has improved his wider game a bit, he's been unlucky with injury in the past as well but he's hit his straps 2012-2013

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:07 pm

sirtidychris wrote:Maybe, he's still square, has no neck and looks like he eats babies. I think 28 is around the peak of a props powers and he's taken to the new scrumming laws like a duck to water, Bath definately like ball playing props though and maybe this has improved his wider game a bit, he's been unlucky with injury in the past as well but he's hit his straps 2012-2013

There's no need for name-calling.

by Mr Bounce Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:17 pm

I get the feeling that SL's hand was forced a bit. It's pretty obvious he wanted to start Wade, but a minor injury stood in his way. I don't think the potential of 3 fullbacks on the field is one any England coach relishes the thought of.

Eastmond had already been sent back to his club so obviously wasn't in the starting or bench plans anyway. And for some reason SL just really likes Goode.

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