England 15 for Argentina

First topic message reminder :

I'd go for a few changes rather than wholesale! Gone are the days of the Argentinians being a easy game!

1. Vunipola
2. Hartkey
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Wade
15. Brown

I don't dislike Goode but we know what he can do, his not going to set the rugby world a light but he is a safe option, Against a struggling Arg team at home we should have perhaps tried someone new out on the bench.

Watson has been brilliant for Bath in the rain this season, great feet, hands and the boy can tackle, Eastmond was one of the stars in Argentina yet back home he doesn't get a look in.

But what really gets me is that Ashton has been gifted another three Eng Caps this Autumn as long as he stays fit yet he doesn't seem to have to produce anything game after game.

To be fair guys, can we stop going on about performances in Argentina...my Falcons team could have beaten them.

Eastmond will get his chance eventually...as long as he keeps performing for Bath...likewise Wade for Wasps.

One thing you have to praise Lancs for is that he is looking for a high level of consistancy over a duration...ie 6 months to a year, from players at their clubs. Most people in this team / squad qualify under that...even Ashton has been good for Sarries and with Wade and yarde out, and little service from the Oz game, it makes sense to keep Ashton in. Hopefully he'll see a bit more ball this game and show the form he is in.

I hear what you're saying Geordie, but we've been waiting for Ashton to re-capture his early England form since 2011, yes he picks up the odd try here and there but his defence is non existent.

How long do we does SL give him?

Scrumpy

Ashton isn't the best defender, but I think some people watch him very closely for mistakes and disregard what is happening inside him. The error in the run-up to the Aussie try started with a numbering off failure leaving England short a man on the blindside. Tomkins was slow to get across, leaving Ashton the choice of trying to be aggressive and take the fullback man and ball or try to hang back and hope he could cover the 2 on 1 with the aid of the touch line. He went for the aggressive option but was beaten by the pass - always a risk, but if you remember back t the RWC 07, something Paul Sackey did several times successfully in the same situation.

Had he been a foot or so quicker he'd have nailed the fullback yards behind the gain line and everyone would have been saying it was a good decision.

My bigger concern with Ashton is his tendency to be a bit sloppy in his passing - got away with one from the tap before Robshaw's try (having re-watched, should have been given as forward), and he also played Mike Brown into trouble on his own 22 at one point.

But could Wade, Yarde, Varndell, Elliott etc essentially do any better with the service the backs are getting and delivering?

Ashton has his critics, im on the fence at the moment though leaning towards replacing him. I suspect it would have been Yarde and Wade on the wings for this game but injuries have halted that one.

But i think we need to look at other areas of the team and THEIR performances...indeed the system England are playing.

Its harsh to judge wingers when it appears their sole input on the game is defensive (especially when its the weakest part of Ashtons game )and they arent given any opportunity to show what they can do offensively...

We’ve all been waiting.

Waiting for The Splash to regain his early form.

Waiting for a SH who’s consistent (mind you that’s true of most countries).

Waiting for Farrell to show he can direct an attacking line.

Waiting for this strength in depth / potential we apparently have at centre (beyond Manu & Barritt).

I’ll keep waiting cuz we have depth, but little strength.

Dickson/Farrell/12T/Tomkins!! - come on, I think CA is the least of our problems.

I'm backing Twelvetrees to have a big game this weekend, wouldn't be surprised if he is the best player on the field.

He knows he didn't play well, so must be fired up to prove his point. I just hope his inexperience doesn't lead him to try to do too much to make up for last weekend

If Twickers sees lots of rain on Saturday I fear for 12T style of rapid side steps and long passes.. this might not end well in the mud.
On the other hand the Splashing Swan might look a bit spectacular if he ever gets a touch down.

I'm thinking more in terms of his kicking ability, and good strong carrying. Hopefully he should see plenty of ball, as our pack looks strong

Scrumpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Wilson looking a bit leaner - ie Fitter? Has this coincided with his better performances this year and last?

Loser fitting shirts!  

I think you might want to edit that to 'looser' before GE gets all over it.

Happy with Foden on the wing! A wise man once said get your best players on the pitch!!!! Dunno who the wise man was.... But he definitely said it

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/november/news-articles/071113_lancasterpicksargentina

bit of an explanation on lancasters picks.

Tiger/Chief wrote:Happy with Foden on the wing! A wise man once said get your best players on the pitch!!!! Dunno who the wise man was.... But he definitely said it

Playing Tom Wood at eight to get him on the pitch worked well against Wales.

Personally I have never been convinced by Foden as a winger. Strettle is playing well at the moment.

Bit surprised with some of the selections.

Corbisiero not selected - Guess that's more fitness related than tactical though.
Hartley over Youngs - Good call.
Wilson over Cole - Surprised. Might ensure Cole is at his best for the NZ game next week though.
Dickson - Surprised Lancaster has stuck with him.
Foden for Yarde - How many more chances will Ashton get? Stlll living off the moderate glory of his 2011 England form.

Foden is a fullback.
Brown is a fullback
Goode is a fullback

What am I missing?

doctor_grey wrote:Foden is a fullback.
Brown is a fullback
Goode is a fullback

What am I missing?

A winger or 2

Foden on the wing when you're short of quality wingers is a good idea (it was originally the Saint's idea), but he should be there instead of Ashton opposed to Yarde. Foden is a skillful player, is good under the high ball and defencively solid. The only real weakness there now is Ashton unless he vastly improves. Not sure if Goode brings anything to this team, always thought he was average and overrated myself despite doing a fairly good job for England when Foden was out.

BamBam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Foden is a fullback.
Brown is a fullback
Goode is a fullback

What am I missing?

A winger or 2

Yeah, that's it.
Feckin A. Lancaster is still missing the point. Wings playing wing? Feckin concept, eh?
Just put Jamie Elliott out there. let him snag his brace them put Corbs out there for all I care. Lancaster is starting to annoy me.

Exiledinborders wrote:...Personally I have never been convinced by Foden as a winger. Strettle is playing well at the moment.

That's the thing, With Yarde and Wade out of contention, it's no good railing against Lancaster's failure to select someone like May or Sharples because the next cab off the rank was Strettle. I suspect it came down to a straight choice between Foden and Strettle, with Lancaster settling on the Saints man because he had taken a full part in training.

I'm just thankful he left Mike Brown at fullback rather than switching him over to accomodate Foden.

What's the prob with Foden?

Good finisher
Good under the high ball
Good kicking game
Good defence
Good positional play
Very quick for a full back! Not out and out pace but quicker than Brown and Goode

Most other countries full backs also play wing! It also means that ANOTHER player doesn't come in to the squad to learn systems etc

Examples of full backs who play wing

O'Connor
Ashley Cooper
Aplon
Robinson
Lewsey
Halfpenny
Folau

The list goes on and on

Yarde is injured as is Wade hence why Ashton is starting.

Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

sirtidychris wrote:Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

Cueto has just phoned to say he has a better build for hooker.

Abendanon is only fun to watch if he is playing against a Tuilagi

I’m not his greatest fan but I’m going to cut SL some slack this time – for this game his starting wingers are both injured, as are our 1st up centres. So that only leaves debate between Farrell & Flood. He was always going to give Dickson, 12T & Tomkins more than just 1 game this series (which makes sense I guess), and the Lion & LO lead Parling was always going to come back when fit. Picking a scrummaging FR vs the Argies also makes sense.

Unfortunately this means the squad to face the most difficult game is already mostly pencilled in, since it would be risky to blood new players or significantly change selection vs the Abs (unless Manu is fit).

Longer term (6N) I think our 1st choice squad will be clear – apart from FH (for me anyway), and flankers should Wood & Robshaw get injured (please God no!).

Tiger/Chief wrote:What's the prob with Foden?

Good finisher
Good under the high ball
Good kicking game
Good defence
Good positional play
Very quick for a full back! Not out and out pace but quicker than Brown and Goode

Most other countries full backs also play wing! It also means that ANOTHER  player doesn't come in to the squad to learn systems etc

Two things.  

One - He simply doesn't ever play on the wing for Saints.  The other blokes must have some wing time for their clubs

Two - I think he should be starting at fullback for England.  Brown was fantastic for England last weekend.  But I do not see him as consistent and he worries me.  I prefer to see him as a bouncer in a bar somewhere.

Marler is a scrummaging LH?

Tiger/Chief wrote:What's the prob with Foden?

His hair!  

well he'll have to be with Mako injured and Corbs with his lightweight knees - much as I'd be tempted to, I can't blame SL for that

sirtidychris wrote:Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

I note you dropped HRH Tindall Prince of Minchinhampton. Do you think he is past it ?

doctor grey you sure that isn't Saints bias talking?

Brown is the form 15 at the moment plus he's in possession of the shirt.

I'm not that opposed to the starting back 3 in light of the injuries, much rather see Foden there than Strettle.

Its Goode being on the bench which I question the most, as he offers less cover and far less game changing ability than an Eastmond would ( )

doctor_grey wrote:

Tiger/Chief wrote:What's the prob with Foden?

Good finisher
Good under the high ball
Good kicking game
Good defence
Good positional play
Very quick for a full back! Not out and out pace but quicker than Brown and Goode

Most other countries full backs also play wing! It also means that ANOTHER  player doesn't come in to the squad to learn systems etc

Two things.  

One - He simply doesn't ever play on the wing for Saints.  The other blokes must have some wing time for their clubs

Two - I think he should be starting at fullback for England.  Brown was fantastic for England last weekend. But I do not see him as consistent and he worries me.  I prefer to see him as a bouncer in a bar somewhere.

Really??

Alongside Robshaw, he's probably been the most consistant player in the premiership and that is consistantly high standards of rugby aswell.

Yup, Brown is undoubted starting FB for me unless Foden starts tearing everyone in the Prem and HC a new one from now till the 6 Nations

Bambam I agree to an extent but Goode has more international experience than Eastmond. For better or for worse we know what Goode can and can't do. People do bash him but he's not been as bad as some have made out.

I would probably have given Eastmond a run out too but SL is a fan of Goode's - plus in wet weather conditions Goode could be handy.

Agree I wouldn't like to see Strettle. I like him but he's had enough opportunities at international level in my opinion.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Tiger/Chief wrote:What's the prob with Foden?

Good finisher
Good under the high ball
Good kicking game
Good defence
Good positional play
Very quick for a full back! Not out and out pace but quicker than Brown and Goode

Most other countries full backs also play wing! It also means that ANOTHER  player doesn't come in to the squad to learn systems etc

Two things.  

One - He simply doesn't ever play on the wing for Saints.  The other blokes must have some wing time for their clubs

Two - I think he should be starting at fullback for England.  Brown was fantastic for England last weekend.  But I do not see him as consistent and he worries me.  I prefer to see him as a bouncer in a bar somewhere.

Really??

Alongside Robshaw, he's probably been the most consistant player in the premiership and that is consistently high standards of rugby aswell.

Let's put Robshaw aside because I am not sure if he has been consistently great this term.  Brown worries me.  One match and he looks great,  Next one he looks like mum and dad were bro and sis.  Lookey, mate.  I want England to be solid from 1-15 and beyond.  If he can deliver a match like last week every week, I will be very happy.  But when I watch him, it seems he almost has one match on (and very on) and one match oblivious (or as Mike Tyson says bolivious).  Hoping I am wrong.

And I do think he would be a great bouncer.

Beeb forecast seems to 'predict' that it'll be wet before kick-off but maybe not so much during the game.

Here's hoping!

re. FB, I'm a big Foden fan but Brown is definitely the form 15 at the moment. Happy for Foden to be on wing due to injuries though. Shame for both Yarde and Wade.

I've a funny feeling Ashton may have a good game tomorrow.

Looking forward to seeing how the front row pans out.

Cyril I think it depends what the coaches choose the gameplan to be.

If it's wet weather then expect Farrell Jr to be kicking the ball a lot.

doctor grey not sure it's fair to look too much into Brown's performances on the wing as a black mark against him.

beshocked wrote:Bambam I agree to an extent but Goode has more international experience than Eastmond. For better or for worse we know what Goode can and can't do. People do bash him but he's not been as bad as some have made out.

I would probably have given Eastmond a run out too but SL is a fan of Goode's - plus in wet weather conditions Goode could be handy.

Agree I wouldn't like to see Strettle. I like him but he's had enough opportunities at international level in my opinion.

I see your point, especially about the wet conditions but I do disagree. With Dickson, Farrell, Twelvetrees and Brown we have 4 good kickers, Foden has an average boot for a full back and we have Flood off the bench. That would appear to be enough kicking options, for me anyway.

The BIB is precisely why I want to see Eastmond in, I know we have seen plenty of Goode, and if we can't blood young exciting players in a home game against an Argentina side missing its 3 best players, when can we? If Lancaster was willing to give Wade a go, as all accounts say, I feel he should have continued on the same path and put Eastmond on the bench.

If we don't have the game practically sewn up by the 60th min, I would question our general performance, as such I don't think having Eastmond on the bench would have hurt us in terms of the result

I dont see that Dr.
Brown looks very good week in week out and put in his position v Australia brought that performance to international level aswell.
He could be a bouncer, but i like that..hes tough, a fighter (obviously with out the fists)...thats the mentality i want in my England team...dont back down to noone. Something im starting to think barritt brings to the team...now that he's not there...

Also, i dont just want the England team to be solid. I want much more than that. I EXPECT every player to have the basics off...tackling rucking etc to a minimum standard, then i expect excellence following that.

Brown provides that in his ability to get past the 1st/2nd and often 3rd defender, and also with his huge boot etc.

Foden also offers more than "Solid" when on form so with the injuries im more than happy with him at wing. We have a luxury of quality players at FB.

sirtidychris wrote:Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

Monye has stated he's available. Every England fan doesn't want him in the squad at 15.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I dont see that Dr.
Brown looks very good week in week out and put in his position v Australia brought that performance to international level aswell.
He could be a bouncer, but i like that..hes tough, a fighter (obviously with out the fists)...thats the mentality i want in my England team...dont back down to noone. Something im starting to think barritt brings to the team...now that he's not there...

Also, i dont just want the England team to be solid. I want much more than that. I EXPECT every player to have the basics off...tackling rucking etc to a minimum standard, then i expect excellence following that.

Brown provides that in his ability to get past the 1st/2nd and often 3rd defender, and also with his huge boot etc.

Foden also offers more than "Solid" when on form so with the injuries im more than happy with him at wing. We have a luxury of quality players at FB.

Methinks we see Brown differently. Physically gifted, no doubts. It is the 90% above the shoulder which worries me. In the match between Saints and Quins earlier this year (in a deluge, granted), Brown looked lost and confused. Foden assured and confident. I recall one other match, but can't remember which at the moment, I thought Brown appeared almost disinterested. Other matches he smoked the opposition. That's why I see him as hit and miss.

sirtidychris wrote:Late squad change from lancaster:

1) Abdendanon
2) M Tait
3) Watson
4) Miller
5) Cook
6) D Armitage
7) Balshaw
8) Dollman
9) Goode
10) Daly
11) Foden
12) Brown
13) A Tait
14) Pennell
15) Williams

Don't understand how you could leave out Phil Vickery from that side?

Well i guess your right we see things slightly differently.

Big Phil's retired.

Scrumpy wrote:Big Phil's retired.

Since when?!

He bakes a mean cake now.

I must admit i personally would have Foden over every other 15 in the Northern Hemisphere, I think tactically he's as solid and dependable as brown but just adds a bit more in attack,

Brown in my view is a better counter attacker but doesn't for me offer enough coming into the line. If Lancaster insists on picking 2 tackling defensive centres then I think Foden should start because he has that X Factor

Scrumpy wrote:Big Phil's retired.

Get on, scrumpy, how come that didn't merit a thread?