Wales vs South Africa match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

OK boys, this weekend Wales and South Africa will both attempt to begin their Autumn Internationals with a win.

Both teams for different reasons.

Wales will want to build on their Six Nations form of the last two years, they will want to confirm to themselves that the British and Irish Lions tour was won because of their players, and they will want to progress from being Northern Hemisphere kings, to a team that has the ability to beat South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

In my view, and possibly in the view of their supporters the time is now, it has been a while since Wales has been so dominant in Europe, the only thing missing before they can call themselves world beaters is to take the next step.

How much of it is mental, how much of it is due to the fact that they struggle to put 80 minute performances together I cannot be certain of, but what I do know is they have the ability, sadly it seems Cuthbert and Roberts will not be part of what I deem as the most talented and dangerous backline in Europe. For two reasons I might add, it is the most settled back line in Europe, and also very experienced.

Since the World Cup in 2011, Wales have won 9 of their 10 Six Nations matches, undoubtedly a very good record, however their problem was the seven match losing streak in between the two Six Nations.

South Africa on the other hand, has a new coach, been there for near two full seasons and he has made a difference.

Still not yet consistent, the concern is always how will Meyer ensure that the springboks perform on a consistent basis. In the past 18 months under Heyneke Meyer the boks had their fair share of poor games.

Last year out of the twelve test matches played the springboks managed to win 7 tests, drew 2 and lost three.

Although the three tests they lost were against New Zealand (twice) and Australia, there were a number of other performances that were not up to par. England in the third test at home, Argentina in Mendoza and New Zealand at home, those were poor performances by South Africa.

Although they went through the Autumn internationals unbeaten the were less than convincing.

I suppose the positive out of the performances were even when they played poorly, they managed to be on the right side of the scoreboard most of the time.

Although South Africa has shown improvement this year, the consistency is still under question.

The one aspect of their game that has improved immeasurably is their positive approach to attacking play, looking at the number of tries scored this year in comparison to last year it makes for astounding reading, in 2012 during 12 matches South Africa managed only 23 tries, conceding 16. This year in 9 tests they have managed 39 tries, conceding 18 tries.

Only New Zealand have managed to score regular tries against SA, totalling 15 tries in the last two years, the rest of their opponents only managed 19 tries in 17 matches.

Wales during 2012 managed to score 20 tries in conceding 17 in their 13 matches. During 2013 in their seven tests to date, they managed 11 tries, conceding 7.

If South Africa continues with their positive approach  to attacking plays I believe Wales will be hard pressed, their defence will have to be up to par, there is no doubt Wales will have a positive approach to the game, so from that perspective it should be an entertaining match.

There are some questions over the selections Meyer will make, will he bring Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and Bakkies Botha in for the first tour match, which would add significantly to the experience of the team, or will he give debutant Pieter Steph du Toit his first cap?

Of course Willie le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht may yet be inexperienced, but in my view it would be unfair to summarily dismiss them in favour of the old hands.

Wales have a few selection issues as well, who will replace Cuthbert and Roberts, and the ultimate question, will Phillips’ disciplinary record affect his chances for selection?

I still wonder who is the best fly half in Wales.

Come what may, this match should be a tough encounter, will SA prove they have made the step up and show consistency, or will Wales make the next leap towards world domination?

Springbok team for Wales.

The Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff is:

15. Pat Lambie 29 caps 55 points
14. JP Pietersen 48 caps 70 points
13. Jaque Fourie 69 caps 160 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 93 caps 120 points
11. Bryan Habana 92 caps 265 points
10. Morné Steyn 51 caps 618 points
9. Fourie du Preez 65 caps 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen 13 caps 5 points
7. Willem Alberts 27 caps 30 points
6. Francois Louw 25 caps 25 points
5. Flip van der Merwe 31 caps 5 points
4. Eben Etzebeth 20 caps 0 points
3. Frans Malberhe 0 caps 0 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis (v-captain) 54 caps 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira 50 caps 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss 30 caps 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp 46 caps 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen 11 caps 5 points
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 0 caps 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi 8 caps 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar 71 caps 130 points
22. JJ Engelbrecht 10 caps 20 points
23. Willie le Roux 9 caps 15 points

Wales team for South Africa
Wales

15 Leigh Halfpenny,
14 George North,
13 Jonathan Davies,
12 Scott Williams,
11 Eli Walker,
10 Rhys Priestland,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Toby Faletau,
7 Sam Warburton (captain),
6 Dan Lydiate,
5 Alun Wyn Jones,
4 Bradley Davies,
3 Adam Jones,
2 Richard Hibbard,
1 Gethin Jenkins

Substitutes: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Luke Charteris, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Lloyd Williams, 22 James Hook, 23 Liam Williams

Ireland - Samoa should be tasty enough itself, Guns. There are some great matches on this weekend.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Ireland - Samoa should be tasty enough itself, Guns. There are some great matches on this weekend.

Well it will be very interesting as obviously its Schmidts first game in charge so I will be glued to it as much as I really want to watch Wales SA. I see this as the game of the weekend albeit only marginally ahead of NZ v FRA.

I think Wales will win by the way. 27-22 Wales.

munkian wrote:

pbuk0 wrote:As an England Fan and supporter of the Lions, I thought Mike Phillips was dreadful for the Lions ( Connor Murray should have started) and he has now been turfed out his club.. Do Welsh fans feel it is time for him to be dropped from the Wales team?

Won 2 tests with him starting so no, he does the job.

Its his backup I'm worried about, Williams is Poopie. Would like to see Rees or Wayne Evans given a go

A poor England side with the very average Dickson at 9 also beat Australia so that is no achievement.. lol..
I always thought with the backs that Wales have that a good passing scrum half would get more out of them rather than Phillips.. He was good for the 2009 Lions but has looked the same since IMO..

Yeah agree re Philips. I reckon his days are numbered.

Only because he is getting on a bit, he very little competition as we haven't picked on form and blooded anyone decent

He seems to be indispensable to Gatland. As strong as he is, I just think he's a known known, to quote Donald Rumsfeld. Someone like Rhodri Williams could really have caused the Boks some problems because they wouldn't know much about him.

with Philips this Autumn series will either make him (again)or break him

Like Andy Powell did  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:He seems to be indispensable to Gatland. As strong as he is, I just think he's a known known, to quote Donald Rumsfeld. Someone like Rhodri Williams could really have caused the Boks some problems because they wouldn't know much about him.

well Wales need to probably try a different approach to Phillips.. as I don't think he has won too many with Wales against SA...

He hasn't , but then neither have the rest of the team. Won plenty against England though

Speaking of poppie 9s, is Dickson starting for you ?

Poppie 9s? Is that a girls' age-group touch rugby tournament?

munkian wrote:He hasn't , but then neither have the rest of the team.  Won plenty against England though

Speaking of poppie 9s, is Dickson starting for you ?

Well beating England is one thing but to beat the best teams in the World ie NZ / SA you may need a new approach..
Unfortunately Dickson is starting for England.. Personally I would like Danny Care to be England Scrum Half

I meant shoite

I think, from their form in the RC, the boks will win and win quite handsomely. They seem to have developed a more free flowing game allied with their traditional strengths. A couple of times in the RC they did freeze a bit late in the 2nd half and played a bit dull, and am aware also the Welsh have power and speed in their side, but I think if the boks play to their potential they have more then the Welsh have at their potential.

As exciting as the RCC is to watch, we do put alot more in defense in the NH - I don't see them scoring tries at will

Oh you've jinxed it now, Munk!

Oh I appreciate that munkian, slightly different styles for sure. But in my neanderthal mind a good fast big un will always beat a smaller good un, and I am thinking that currently the boks have some huge players that seems to have been given licence to run... well cept as I said a couple of times in the 2nd half when they seem to go back into their shell.

I am looking forward to this clash more than the boks/kiwi last game cause I think then the boks had a slightly less confident mind set than against the Welsh, who is currently northern champs. So it will be a good game for the neturals as myself.

ENGLAND LEAD BY EXAMPLE
Captain Sam Warburton wants Wales to follow England's lead by claiming a southern hemisphere scalp during the autumn series.
Hope Wales win it, could help put England up one more place in the rankings.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Oh you've jinxed it now, Munk!

Waiting for Warb's post match interview - 'f~ck munkian !'

South Africa's post match interview - 'We hit thee ricks well, pessed good ball, but we owe it all to munkian, cheers bru !'

OzT wrote:Oh I appreciate that munkian, slightly different styles for sure. But in my neanderthal mind a good fast big un will always beat a smaller good un, and I am thinking that currently the boks have some huge players that seems to have been given licence to run... well cept as I said a couple of times in the 2nd half when they seem to go back into their shell.

I am looking forward to this clash more than the boks/kiwi last game cause I think then the boks had a slightly less confident mind set than against the Welsh, who is currently northern champs. So it will be a good game for the neturals as myself.

As a England Fan I am looking forward to the Wales v SA game more than England V Argentina especially after seeing the England team with Ashton/ Dickson/ Tomkins / Goode all being in the squad.. I hope Wales give them a good game but I think SA are probably slight favourites..

munkian wrote:As exciting as the RCC is to watch, we do put alot more in defense in the NH - I don't see them scoring tries at will

Yeah for some reason it seems that SH teams just chuck the ball around and forget to tackle. That's why SH teams struggle so much against NH teams. Oh except they dont.

Since 2000 SA have played the 6N teams a total of 68 times scoring 182 tries or 2.7 tries per game. Against NZ, Aus, Arg and Samoa (chucked them in to balance off against Italy) they have played 86 games scoring 213 tries or 2.5 tries per game. So probably SH teams defend against SA just a little better than NH teams.

I'd hazzard a guess that NZ manage to score tries against NH teams fairly often as well.

nganboy wrote:

munkian wrote:As exciting as the RCC is to watch, we do put alot more in defense in the NH - I don't see them scoring tries at will

Yeah for some reason it seems that SH teams just chuck the ball around and forget to tackle. That's why SH teams struggle so much against NH teams. Oh except they dont.

Since 2000 SA have played the 6N teams a total of 68 times scoring 182 tries or 2.7 tries per game. Against NZ, Aus, Arg and Samoa (chucked them in to balance off against Italy) they have played 86 games scoring 213 tries or 2.5 tries per game. So probably SH teams defend against SA just a little better than NH teams.

I'd hazzard a guess that NZ manage to score tries against NH teams fairly often as well.

You can prove anything with facts  

munkian wrote:

nganboy wrote:

munkian wrote:As exciting as the RCC is to watch, we do put alot more in defense in the NH - I don't see them scoring tries at will

Yeah for some reason it seems that SH teams just chuck the ball around and forget to tackle. That's why SH teams struggle so much against NH teams. Oh except they dont.

Since 2000 SA have played the 6N teams a total of 68 times scoring 182 tries or 2.7 tries per game. Against NZ, Aus, Arg and Samoa (chucked them in to balance off against Italy) they have played 86 games scoring 213 tries or 2.5 tries per game. So probably SH teams defend against SA just a little better than NH teams.

I'd hazzard a guess that NZ manage to score tries against NH teams fairly often as well.

You can prove anything with facts :roll: 

I like the posters who 'prove' stuff armed only with their opinions.

gregortree wrote:

munkian wrote:

nganboy wrote:

munkian wrote:As exciting as the RCC is to watch, we do put alot more in defense in the NH - I don't see them scoring tries at will

Yeah for some reason it seems that SH teams just chuck the ball around and forget to tackle. That's why SH teams struggle so much against NH teams. Oh except they dont.

Since 2000 SA have played the 6N teams a total of 68 times scoring 182 tries or 2.7 tries per game. Against NZ, Aus, Arg and Samoa (chucked them in to balance off against Italy) they have played 86 games scoring 213 tries or 2.5 tries per game. So probably SH teams defend against SA just a little better than NH teams.

I'd hazzard a guess that NZ manage to score tries against NH teams fairly often as well.

You can prove anything with facts :roll: 

I like the posters who 'prove' stuff armed only with their opinions.

Well thats just, like, your opinion, man #Lebowski

Actually  NGanboy, I think Munkian has a point (but so do you).

Since the RWC11, SA have played 12 matches vs. SH opposition vs. 8 vs. NH opposition.

In the 12 matches they scored 35 tries (2.92 per game) against 19 (2.34 per game) in the 8 SH matches... so it would be fair to say SA score less tries against the NH.

However, whilst they have conceded 23 tries in the 12 SH matches (1.92 per game) they have only conceded 9 in the 8 NH matches (1.12 per game) so whilst they score less tries by -0.58 per game... they concede +0.80 less tries then when they're facing SH opposition.

So you're sort of both right.

fa0019 wrote:Actually  NGanboy, I think Munkian has a point (but so do you).

Since the RWC11, SA have played 12 matches vs. SH opposition vs. 8 vs. NH opposition.

In the 12 matches they scored 35 tries (2.92 per game) against 19 (2.34 per game) in the 8 SH matches... so it would be fair to say SA score less tries against the NH.

However, whilst they have conceded 23 tries in the 12 SH matches (1.92 per game) they have only conceded 9 in the 8 NH matches (1.12 per game) so whilst they score less tries by -0.58 per game... they concede +0.80 less tries then when they're facing SH opposition.

So you're sort of both right.

 

fa0019 wrote:Actually  NGanboy, I think Munkian has a point (but so do you).

Since the RWC11, SA have played 12 matches vs. SH opposition vs. 8 vs. NH opposition.

In the 12 matches they scored 35 tries (2.92 per game) against 19 (2.34 per game) in the 8 SH matches... so it would be fair to say SA score less tries against the NH.

However, whilst they have conceded 23 tries in the 12 SH matches (1.92 per game) they have only conceded 9 in the 8 NH matches (1.12 per game) so whilst they score less tries by -0.58 per game... they concede +0.80 less tries then when they're facing SH opposition.

So you're sort of both right.

You would have to take in consideration conditions as well.

What were the conditions like though? Often teams are defence oriented up north because they play in difficult conditions. For a long period NZ hadn't conceded a try in the NH in the recent past. If they'd be playing in the high veld or Australia that probably wouldn't have been the case. It rains a lot in NZ but NZ are more accustomed to passing and running in different conditions. Indeed Meyer says he wants the roof open precisely to imitate conditions for the RWC. Not emulate the last performance at Ellis Park.

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Actually  NGanboy, I think Munkian has a point (but so do you).

Since the RWC11, SA have played 12 matches vs. SH opposition vs. 8 vs. NH opposition.

In the 12 matches they scored 35 tries (2.92 per game) against 19 (2.34 per game) in the 8 SH matches... so it would be fair to say SA score less tries against the NH.

However, whilst they have conceded 23 tries in the 12 SH matches (1.92 per game) they have only conceded 9 in the 8 NH matches (1.12 per game) so whilst they score less tries by -0.58 per game... they concede +0.80 less tries then when they're facing SH opposition.

So you're sort of both right.

You would have to take in consideration conditions as well.

and

incentives of bonus points
and are SA not putting out full strength side etc against say Scotland in the quad championships etc compared to say AUS.

I think though the NH teams play more conservative rugby esp. when in Europe. Means less running, more wins by kicks (from an observational perspective only).

luckless, no-one wants rp to fall on his face, what good would that do the team? posters who would have started with biggar are giving their opinion on just that; he should have at least been given the opportunity to lose the shirt.
No way can rp's games so far, however good, justify biggar being dropped.
Remember, they continued with rp when he was in meltdown and biggar was on form.
Biggar is the one who's had a slap in the face,imo. And i am beginning to think he has upset someone....
Rumour down the pub last night was the o's played him at 15 because they knew he wasn't in and were told hook could cover , so they put biggar on show at 15 , and he had a great game......won't do any good though. Never mind, no harm in feeling sorry for a guy who has been unjustly treated, which is what it's about at the end of the day.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Actually  NGanboy, I think Munkian has a point (but so do you).

Since the RWC11, SA have played 12 matches vs. SH opposition vs. 8 vs. NH opposition.

In the 12 matches they scored 35 tries (2.92 per game) against 19 (2.34 per game) in the 8 SH matches... so it would be fair to say SA score less tries against the NH.

However, whilst they have conceded 23 tries in the 12 SH matches (1.92 per game) they have only conceded 9 in the 8 NH matches (1.12 per game) so whilst they score less tries by -0.58 per game... they concede +0.80 less tries then when they're facing SH opposition.

So you're sort of both right.

You would have to take in consideration conditions as well.

and

incentives of bonus points
and are SA not putting out full strength side etc against say Scotland in the quad championships etc compared to say AUS.

I think though the NH teams play more conservative rugby esp. when in Europe. Means less running, more wins by kicks (from an observational perspective only).

Really hope both teams cut loose tomorrow . On one hand it can leave us exposed to the dangerous Red backthree but on the flipside , they have to then contain guys like JPP and Fourie running in broken play.

gavstar wrote:No way can  rp's games so far, however good, justify biggar being dropped.

No offence, but clearly the coaches disagree with you on that.

gavstar wrote:No harm in feeling sorry for a guy who has been unjustly treated, which is what it's about at the end of the day.

I agree it's a bit harsh for the incumbent to drop out of the squad completely.

gatland will have done is homework watched and studied south African games this year ,point out the weakness to the Welsh players and practise set pieces to eliminate south African attack to gather loose ball and counter attack ourselves . when this dont work for sixty minutes and we losing by 17 points take off Philips and blame him  

Our bench is fairly tidy

I didn't want Phillips to start, now I want him to play the full 80. Lloyd Williams fills me with no confidence whatsoever.

SA by 10.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I didn't want Phillips to start, now I want him to play the full 80. Lloyd Williams fills me with no confidence whatsoever.

Yes ! What has he ever done well apart from escape Bryn's knackers quicker than the rest ?

i think Wales will have more confidence then this time last year . its still the SH  monkey on the back but i think we ll surprise the boks and give them a better game then expected . i expect  the SH coach,  players and posters on here goes its only Wales no problem and with our record they right .

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

gavstar wrote:No way can  rp's games so far, however good, justify biggar being dropped.

No offence, but clearly the coaches disagree with you on that.

They seem strangely undecided about what they want from a ten, considering the tactics elsewhere are unwavering and relentless.

Hook was too much, Biggar wasn't enough, do they see Priestland as some sort of magic Goldilocks solution if they give him enough chances?

If it rains on Saturday as the SA coach hopes, I hope it isn't as bad as December 1960 when SA beat Wales 3-0 at the Arms Park by a penalty kick taken early in the game. The rain was torrential for many hours before, during and after the match.

I was soaked getting to the game and soaked again going home afterwards.  Funnily enough, during the match I kept dry in the crowd huddled on the terrace under the north stand.

Later that evening the River Taff burst its banks. By next morning the Arms Park was under 3 or 4 feet of water. Elsewhere in Cardiff, hundreds of homes were flooded and thousands of people suffered.

To be honest, I don't think Saturday afternoon's defeat by SA meant much to Cardiff people on Sunday morning.

 

optimist wrote:If it rains on Saturday as the SA coach hopes, I hope it isn't as bad as December 1960 when SA beat Wales 3-0 at the Arms Park by a penalty kick taken early in the game. The rain was torrential for many hours before, during and after the match.

I was soaked getting to the game and soaked again going home afterwards.  Funnily enough, during the match I kept dry in the crowd huddled on the terrace under the north stand.

Later that evening the River Taff burst its banks. By next morning the Arms Park was under 3 or 4 feet of water. Elsewhere in Cardiff, hundreds of homes were flooded and thousands of people suffered.

To be honest, I don't think Saturday's defeat to SA meant much to Cardiff people on the Sunday.

Roof will be shut

I predict a 27 all draw

Wales to leak a try in the first 5-8 mins. and then play catch up for the rest of the game before going down 29-18  

The voice of reason is back for a short period only; due to other rugby related commitments:   

Lloyd Williams hasnt been bad this season, hes actually playing quite well in an under performing Blues side, he always does seem to pick up his game when hes coached by Howley(surprise there).

I do like the selection of Williams on the wing, he has better defence than Cuthbert who SA would have surely exploited.

SA should not take Wales lightly, I don't think they will.

But it is important that we start well, in recent matches we had to play catchup due to slow starts. One of these days Wales is going to get a blinding start and manage to hold onto that lead.

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

gavstar wrote:No way can  rp's games so far, however good, justify biggar being dropped.

No offence, but clearly the coaches disagree with you on that.

They seem strangely undecided about what they want from a ten, considering the tactics elsewhere are unwavering and relentless.

Hook was too much, Biggar wasn't enough, do they see Priestland as some sort of magic Goldilocks solution if they give him enough chances?

What they see is talent. Thats indisputed. What many however additionally see and that the coaches hope is not true, is a player who doesn't have the mental strength to make it as a topclass 10.... but coaches will give a player a number of chances to redeem themselves over their career.... England gave Charlie Hodgson 40 caps over a decade.

Its the clutch position with no hiding unfortunately. Most other positions you can shy away.... but not at 10.

He could very well play well tomorrow but long term I think it will be a mistake. You never know though.... a similar player ended up helping NZ to world cup glory in 2011.

The last 2 times we played SA at home we got off to a good start but couldn't hold on to the lead, but I think now we are starting to grow the mentality to close a game out, looking back to Wales' last game vs England, we didn't let them back into the game.

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

gavstar wrote:No way can  rp's games so far, however good, justify biggar being dropped.

No offence, but clearly the coaches disagree with you on that.

They seem strangely undecided about what they want from a ten, considering the tactics elsewhere are unwavering and relentless.

Hook was too much, Biggar wasn't enough, do they see Priestland as some sort of magic Goldilocks solution if they give him enough chances?

Cas, saying 'if they give him enough chances' suggests it hasn't happened yet, when actually he was the 'Goldilocks solution' during the World Cup and the subsequent Six Nations (brain fart at Twickenham aside). Then he suffered a slump in confidence and form. He's not the first player to have experienced that, and he won't be the last. The good news is that he's back to full fitness and playing some great rugby.

IronMike wrote:The last 2 times we played SA at home we got off to a good start but couldn't hold on to the lead, but I think now we are starting to grow the mentality to close a game out, looking back to Wales' last game vs England, we Walsh didn't let them back into the game.

Fixed it for you.

In all seriousness please beat the Boks this weekend.

Fully support whoever is picked !