Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Swansea 3-2 Stoke

What has happened to Stoke's defence

[Kay Fabe]

£27m is a helluva lot of money to be paying for a good option from the bench, I personally think Fellani is a very good player but needs time to settle in, despite it being the same league playing for Utd with the weight of expectancy compared to that of Everton will be a major culture shock, I think given time, if the fas have patience then he'll develop into a top midfielder for Man Utd

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Now they're not winning like a machine these man united fans are not showing any patience. Funny old things

[Hammersmith harrier]

Don't brand us all the same Dolph, those who have been vocal against Moyes are not proper fans.

[Guest]

|The problem was actually highlighted today though(Giroud)

I knew people would come around to my thinking. Look, I'm not anti-arsenal everyone thinks I am.....I just understand their main weakness & see how it will eventually cost them long term & in their hunt for trophies.

@Champagne - my post about Giroud not scoring was in three specific games. He subsequently didn't score in any of them. He was dog awful against Liverpool (saved by the midfield), awful against Dortmund (basically had one touch all night which was an assist but he was dreadful) & he was awful against United. All I'm saying is that Arsenal won't win anything with this guy leading the team up front. In the big tight games, you need something different & you need the difference maker up top who can create and score a chance out of nothing, maybe one chance. He is not that. He is really only effective against weaker teams whereby Arsenal can fashion out chance after chance & provide him with chances 'on a plate'.

I love watching Arsenal this season, really exciting football that can challenge the Manchester's & Chelsea of this league but I just feel that they are one position short of something special currently.

[TopHat24/7]

Was chatting to my die hard United fan mate at yesterday's game, he made the point that Moyes is showing pretty big balls by spending that much money on a player and not playing him. Flip side being it also shows some pretty poor transfer skills, over-paying for a player you should know inside out having coached for several years and then finding he doesn't fit/get into your team.

Agree with HH, United should be looking at securing top4 and getting past the group stages of CL this year, not much more. Therefore this is a great time to phase out the increasingly frail old guard.

Regarding the result more specifically, as much as I'd like to see them win the league, it was nice to see Arsenal getting their bubble burst. First real challenge (2-man-team don't count) having had an extremely generous fixture list and they weren't in the game first half and should've been 2 down at half time if it weren't for that outrageous penalty decision.

Second half was undoubtedly Arsenal's, but I think the difference was as much due to Jones having to be moved out of midfield following the Vidic injury at the end of the first half and being replaced by the anonymous and ineffective Clev.

Overheard one funny comment in the pub, it was like 'crap sub' one upsmanship. United brought on Giggs and Arsene said, "I'll see your Giggs, and raise you a Bendtner"!!

[Hammersmith harrier]

I would have been tempted to move Smalling centrally, slot Valencia in at right back and bring Cleverley on the right side but we won either way. As long as Jones, Smalling and Evans stay fit our defensive frailties will soon dissipate while we shouldn't struggle to score, Rooney can more than make up for a lack of creativity in midfield. Ozil should take note of how the master assister in the premier league goes about his business and the game yesterday highlighted why I didn't want him, he's a luxury player whom you can't rely on to do a job in the big games.

[Guest]

@Harrier - I don't really think Ozil needs to take any notes from Rooney on how to go about the business of assisting or creating chances. Ozil is world class performer, around the top 5 in the world. Is Rooney.....no! A few 'off' games from Ozil & people start questioning his abilities....embarrassing. Moyes states, 'we didn't buy Ozil because we don't need him'....haha delusional Moyes.

As for Rooney, total burnout come the summer with the demands United are putting on him & the work rate he's showing.

[TopHat24/7]

Would've taken Ozil in a heartbeat. When you paying £27m for a funny haired donkey that can't break into the first team and bring on players like Cleverly, you've got to question missing out on one of the world's best creative midfielders - twice!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Ozil could take note of how to be a team player from Rooney and how to create chances against the best teams, I will admit i've yet to see him perform against any of the elite whether it be for Madrid or Arsenal. I wouldn't want Ozil at United and that isn't down to sour grapes, he just doesn't work hard enough to be a United player and he simply isn't better than Rooney, no chance. He has great ability when given time on the ball but when he's hassled he lacks the physicality to do a lot while off the ball he's awful. We have never had room for luxury players and we never will.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Would've taken Ozil in a heartbeat.  When you paying £27m for a funny haired donkey that can't break into the first team and bring on players like Cleverly, you've got to question missing out on one of the world's best creative midfielders - twice!

I'd have to ask Toppy where he would fit into the team?

Kagawa a very similar player is being accommodated on the left but isn't at his best there and there is no chance in hell he plays in Rooneys position behind Van Persie. We would then have three players to fit into one position with only one of them being a certain starter, we needed a creative central midfielder with a good work rate not an attacking midfielder with no work rate.

[mystiroakey]

"Was chatting to my die hard United fan mate at yesterday's game, he made the point that Moyes is showing pretty big balls by spending that much money on a player and not playing him"

exactly what i was thinking, the comparison is that Tottenham keep starting soldado- Both players were approx 27m, and AVB doesn't seem to have the balls to drop his expensive signing

[mystiroakey]

@Harrier - I don't really think Ozil needs to take any notes from Rooney on how to go about the business of assisting or creating chances. Ozil is world class performer, around the top 5 in the world. Is Rooney.....no! A few 'off' games from Ozil & people start questioning his abilities....embarrassing. Moyes states, 'we didn't buy Ozil because we don't need him'....haha delusional Moyes.

As for Rooney, total burnout come the summer with the demands United are putting on him & the work rate he's showing.

true

Ironically Ozil will probally win Germany the WC and be fresh as a daisy

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

"Was chatting to my die hard United fan mate at yesterday's game, he made the point that Moyes is showing pretty big balls by spending that much money on a player and not playing him"

exactly what i was thinking, the comparison is that Tottenham keep starting soldado- Both players were approx 27m, and AVB doesn't seem to have the balls to drop his expensive signing

Good point Mysti. Defoe must be so annoyed

[TopHat24/7]

Would've taken Ozil in a heartbeat.  When you paying £27m for a funny haired donkey that can't break into the first team and bring on players like Cleverly, you've got to question missing out on one of the world's best creative midfielders - twice!

I'd have to ask Toppy where he would fit into the team?

Kagawa a very similar player is being accommodated on the left but isn't at his best there and there is no chance in hell he plays in Rooneys position behind Van Persie. We would then have three players to fit into one position with only one of them being a certain starter, we needed a creative central midfielder with a good work rate not an attacking midfielder with no work rate.

Part of a front 3, he and Rooney playing behind RVP?

When someone's that good you find a way to accommodate them. There's no blindingly obvious place to fit Messi or Ronaldo back in, but I'd shoe-horn them in somewhere.

[Guest]

@Harrier - I don't really think Ozil needs to take any notes from Rooney on how to go about the business of assisting or creating chances. Ozil is world class performer, around the top 5 in the world. Is Rooney.....no! A few 'off' games from Ozil & people start questioning his abilities....embarrassing. Moyes states, 'we didn't buy Ozil because we don't need him'....haha delusional Moyes.

As for Rooney, total burnout come the summer with the demands United are putting on him & the work rate he's showing.

true

Ironically Ozil will probally win Germany the WC and be fresh as a daisy

Exactly, Rooney doesn't have the build or natural fitness to keep this form or intensity up for a whole season & then a summer in Brazil. I can see it all ending in tears once again in the summer. Obviously, I hope I'm wrong but it's usually the reality. Yeah, Ozil will be fresh as a daisy for the WC because he's effortless & just works on attacking plays & not too much in terms of defensive work. Rooney appears to do everything for United, maybe because he feels he's carrying the United team presently, whereas Ozil isn't carrying Arsenal, it's more a team effort - hence top of the league.

Also the fact that England is solely 'Rooney, whereas Germany are a collection of 'Ozil, Reus, Gotze, Podolski, Gomez, Schweisteiger, Lahm, Hummels, Draxler'......ridiculous.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Would've taken Ozil in a heartbeat.  When you paying £27m for a funny haired donkey that can't break into the first team and bring on players like Cleverly, you've got to question missing out on one of the world's best creative midfielders - twice!

I'd have to ask Toppy where he would fit into the team?

Kagawa a very similar player is being accommodated on the left but isn't at his best there and there is no chance in hell he plays in Rooneys position behind Van Persie. We would then have three players to fit into one position with only one of them being a certain starter, we needed a creative central midfielder with a good work rate not an attacking midfielder with no work rate.

Part of a front 3, he and Rooney playing behind RVP?

When someone's that good you find a way to accommodate them.  There's no blindingly obvious place to fit Messi or Ronaldo back in, but I'd shoe-horn them in somewhere.

The thing with that is we have a good reference point with Kagawa to know it wouldn't necessarily work, we would then have to change the whole system of the team and play with three central midfielders. Ronaldo and Messi are different in that they are better than what we already have, Ozil is not a better option than Rooney in my opinion. Rooney is as far as i'm concerned the best team player in world football so I wouldn't swap him for anybody, i'd like Ronaldo as well as him but on top form he's too instrumental to swap.

[TopHat24/7]

But I think Kagawa is being played wrong. All our strengths are down the middle and our weaknesses down the wings (very non-classic United) therefore I think we should be playing narrow and packing the midfield, not pushing someone like Kagawa out left.

[TopHat24/7]

Would also note that, where Rooney is concerned, your 'on top form' caveat is problematically significant. At 100% he's almost unplayable. Problem is we only see that a few times a season. If we're lucky we'll get a sustained 80% period where he'll still be a top prem player, but the rest of the time he's at 60%.

Ronaldo rarely dips below 80% and is basically a goal a game guarantee.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Rooney > Ozil

[NickisBHAFC]

Rooney > Ozil

This.

[J.Benson II]

Both are top quality but I would take Rooney over Ozil. In terms of sheer effectiveness, there are very few that I would take ahead of Rooney. Him and Van Persie together is the best foward line in world football (along with PSG).

However, these comparisons tend to just be judged on players current form/games.
If Rooney goes through a bad patch in a few weeks and Ozil starts putting in MOTM performances during the same period, opinions I'm sure would quickly change.

[compelling and rich]

one thing i noticed on sunday that i hadn't realised quite as bad is how lazy ozil was off the ball, we simply wanted it more on sunday and was willing to work harder for it. off the ball ozil was just walking around not putting any effort to win the ball back.

still technically a brilliant player but even some of the best still have to put hard work in (xavi, inestia and messi prime examples), only really ronaldo who i think can get away with it

[Hammersmith harrier]

Even Ronaldo put a hell of a shift in for us on many occasions but in a team that consisted of Rooney, Tevez and Park he could get away with it a bit. Ozil's laziness is why I wouldn't want him at United, you simply can't get away with it in the premier league against the better teams. As we've shown for years now, you can make up for a lack of overall ability with a never say die attitude, we have it, Arsenal do not.

[mystiroakey]

On form there isnt a better overall player than Rooney in the PL at the moment.

amazing assists and goal scoring(not sure but I would guess he tops both together season wide)- plus he also decides to play every other role on the pitch as a back up.

Rooney may not be a messi or ronaldo but when he is in this form he is like having 2 players! and 2 very good ones!

[compelling and rich]

surely suarez and aguero are up there, beating him on goals easily enough, not sure on assisits but rooneys got 4 according to espn

[mystiroakey]

Rooney/RVP > SAS based on the Arsenal benchmark

[mystiroakey]

this season Rooney and has played 15 games(not including friendlies) and had 17 goals and assists(11 in the PL- 5 goals and 6 assists) and 4 in the cl(2 goals and 2 assists)

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/wayne-rooney/profil/spieler_3332.html

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Id have Rooney over anyone in the Premier League (except Ravel Morrison obviously).

[compelling and rich]

espn has him playing 10 games 5 goals 4 assists
aguero 10 games 8 goals 4 assists
suarez 6 games 8 goals 1 assist

there all premier league stats which was what you put, best in the PL

i agree about rooney and rvp being over the SAS but thats mainly due to rooney or rvp (whichever you pick) being alot better than sturridge

[Hammersmith harrier]

Got to say that it's a bit too early to be drawing too much from statistics, we've so far played Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Liverpool and the resolute Southampton. Come christmas the table and the stats start to make a lot more sense.

[mystiroakey]

espn has him playing 10 games 5 goals 4 assists
aguero 10 games 8 goals 4 assists
suarez 6 games 8 goals 1 assist

there all premier league stats which was what you put, best in the PL

i agree about rooney and rvp being over the SAS but thats mainly due to rooney or rvp (whichever you pick) being alot better than sturridge

firstly espn may be wrong- Rooney is reported to have had 6 assits in the PL elsewhere.

and secondly I didn't suggest the PL only

thirdly I didn't state any fact just a guess, but after research Aguero tops Rooney with 21 goals and assists season wide. Rooney in second spot with 17

[compelling and rich]

On form there isnt a better overall player than Rooney in the PL  at the moment.

amazing assists and goal scoring(not sure but I would guess he tops both together season wide)- plus he also decides to play every other role on the pitch as a back up.

Rooney may not be a messi or ronaldo but when he is in this form he is like having 2 players! and 2 very good ones!

this bit made me think you were referring to prem form, which is why i said aguero and suarez because they have both had fantastic starts

[mystiroakey]

Yeah ok.. well the point made was about his goals/assists and work rate- the work rate part was the a major part of it tbh.

Anyway Transfer market reports that Rooney had 2 assists v Swansea in the PL and 1 in each of his last 4 PL games(Arsenal,Fulham,stoke, Southampton)

Can any Man U fans confirm this? or is it only 4?

[compelling and rich]

the only other reliable stats that i usually use are barclays, the same as the fantasy football. but they are very very liberal when it comes to assists. pretty much any last touch before a goal is a assist with them

your site could be similar because rooney was given a assist for rvp goal against stoke where he had a header saved and rvp hit the rebound in. not technically a assist for me, i always think of an assist as a pass that directly leads to a goal but there can be a few different definitions

[mystiroakey]

Right I see.

TBH I have no problem calling a rebound off the bar or a parried shot that leads to a goal an assist.

They are the sole reason and set up for the goal.

[compelling and rich]

Right I see.

TBH I have no problem calling a rebound off the bar or a parried shot that leads to a goal an assist.

They are the sole reason and set up for the goal.

depends for me, basically that stoke example people may be congratulating rooney on setting up rvp when which for me is wrong because a, he should have scored himself, and b, he had no intention trying to set up rvp. he also had a very similar instance (cant remember which game) when he tried going round the keeper messed up and got tackled but rvp was following up and hit the rebound in. not really assists but you can definitely argue he caused a goal

[mystiroakey]

to me its more about the reality of the situation. Rooney's efforts created and set up the goal. stats should represent effectiveness. His parried shot was an effective assist, due to the fact that it led to the goal

[compelling and rich]

you can give him assists but the moral of it is that you shouldn't be praising him for missing sitters, not for me anyway. if RVP wasn't alive to both of those chances rooney wouldn't have caused anything other than a missed chance

[mystiroakey]

I am not praising him at all,

stats should represent the effectiveness of the player.

if you want to only use the final pass in a build up as an assist what about the times when a cross come shot leads to a goal! - should that be an assist? by your definition it should be- but its not really a directed pass to a player is it!

What about a miss placed cross or pass - but luckily;y finds another player?

This is not about Rooney- this is about stats representing the effectiveness of a player. and yes we also have to add the slightly lucky ones as well. However the key point to all stats is we have to be consistent for all.

[Guest]

What are you trying to prove with these stats? Just asking.

As for Rooney, his biggest test is consistency in his play & keeping above 95% of his fitness. Drop below that standard & he will lose his effectiveness, movement & first touch, which is usually all missing when he plays for England when he's not fully fit or burntout. He's basically carrying United, which is the biggest concern really for Moyes. Arsenal might not have the striking options but they have a bigger team threat for me, especially from midfield.

As for best overall player of the season, I wouldn't say it's Rooney. Yeah, he's playing great but I think his performances are enhanced because of the lackluster, shocking play from his teammates, bar RVP. I mean, take Januzaj for example, comes into the team & looks a world beater.......that sums up United's squad. No wonder Rooney feels pressured into running himself into the ground, doesn't trust his own teammates to do their own jobs.

I think Aguero, Suarez, Ramsey & Rooney are the star players to date but, for me, Ramsey has just been exceptional & that's why he's regarded as the player of the season to date by the media & pundits.

[mystiroakey]

Stats are a very good tool to use when discussing players John.

I agree that ramsey has been up there as well and throughout the season in the PL . And my no.1 player so far as well.

But I was looking at some midfielder stats earlier and was surprised to see Lallana  right up there in many areas as well.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I tell you what, I bet Rooney has played more incisive passes, done more tackling and contributed more across the whole pitch than Suarez and Aguero combined.

I love Rooney, just an incredible, incredible player. All round game better than anyone i've ever watched.

[Guest]

I bet Rooney has played more incisive passes, done more tackling and contributed more across the whole pitch than Suarez and Aguero combined.

Yeah, but again it's unfair comparison. Suarez n Aguero don't play behind strikers in deeper roles, therefore Rooney will of course have more incisive passes or assists generally over a season. Rooney's job really should not involve much tackling, his role is the creative spark & the goal-scoring deep striker role. The fact Rooney has to do so much tackling & back-tracking basically sums up the inefficiencies in other areas of the United team & the reason United were struggling early on in the season.

Rooney has been superb, you just worry for United fans, if he were to drop his level or get injured because everything is revolving around him currently.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

He used to do that all when Ronaldo was there though. You know Rooney's on form when he pops up all over the place, he has that desire and that ability to just be better than everyone at everything all of a sudden.

The only bonus is that RVP is coming to life a bit more and the defenders seem to be grasping their balls for the battle now.

[Crimey]

I don't think Suarez's work rate is any less than Rooney, he might not track back as much as Rooney but that's because he does his pressing higher up the pitch which is much more useful when trying to start attacks as you'll win the ball back higher up the pitch.

I think this is a typical Rooney patch of form which come and go, he's certainly being helped by the fact that the spotlight is off RVP who has been fairly disappointing this year.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

He's just a very good player. He had a rather quiet patch last year where he still scored a good few goals and contributed to the team. For some reason Rooney can't do that without being chastised.

Suarez does work higher up the pitch, but I would say Rooney could do that role, but I don't think Suarez would be as useful as Rooney deeper. Suarez would possibly be my second choice of any player West Ham could have, but Rooney is definitely first

[Ent]

Assists are a stupid stat, pass the ball a yard to a team mate and he cracks it into the net from 30 yards - you get an assist.

All about the context in which they are used and interpreted.

[mystiroakey]

Not really ent- because in the long run that will marginalise.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'm with Ent on this one, assists are a fairly pointless stat to an extent

[mystiroakey]

I think they are very important as are key passes. The more stats the better for me. I am with the Americans on this.

I would like a comprehensive site that shows every possible valid stat.

ESPN is great for rugby and cricket, not quite there for football.

The data must be there- as its used to program Manager games

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