What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Griff - to answer your first question, I think it's because the Welsh media STILL bang on about the '70s "golden era" of rugby and regardless of how well we've done since then, we can never live up to that.  Even now you hear of players being compared to those from the '70s, and I think that's really unfair. Maybe people just associate rugby with nostalgia, so with any change they don't like it because it's upsetting that association.  On your other point, I think the way in which the regions were marketed wasn't helped by the names they were given.  If they'd just started with Scarlets, Ospreys, Blues and Dragons instead of putting the place names in front of them like they did, it would've made things a bit simpler and more acceptable to the fans.  There are fans who are incredibly territorial about the regions and won't support a region because it's Cardiff, Newport, Swansea etc...

Cari,

You're spot on with regards to the names and the way they were brought together but from one point I can see why they done, the likes of Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli have predominently been renowned outside of Wales as well as in so I guessed they thought they needed to keep them.

I do think (I know its not the be all and end all) that they club names should now be dropped and have just the Ospreys (which they have) Blues, Dragons and Scarlets - though lets be honest the Scarlets will always be associated with Llanelli.

It won't solve everything and there will still be people of my generation from say Ponty and Ebbw etc who no matter what happens won't step foot inside Rodney Parade or CAP but its the future and the youngsters they need to aim any new marketing strategies at.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Loyalty went out of the window as soon as the game went proffessional and players had to earn a proper living from it.

In the amateur days you would very rarely see someone from Ponty go to Cardiff or Swansea to Llanelli etc etc but now if club X comes in with big offer they go and who can blame them.

That's the thing Bedford, the players had no choice but to go pro, and why not earn a crust from doing something you love like play rugby if you're good enough? it seems to me that a section of fans can't accept that rugby has had to go professional and get behind a region. can't say I blame them when the powers that be seem to have made such a pigs ear of it all.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Cari,

It won't solve everything and there will still be people of my generation from say Ponty and Ebbw etc who no matter what happens won't step foot inside Rodney Parade or CAP but its the future and the youngsters they need to aim any new marketing strategies at.

Totally agree with you on that. Perhaps the issue is there are those within the higher ranks of Welsh rugby who belong to that generation who don't like the pro regions...

Yeah, that's true. But that's sort of my point too - leave the place names in and at least you'd guarantee some fan base at the start, which is why I think the WRU did it. Otherwise, they risked the regions not taking off at all. I didn't/don't agree with it, but selling a product to existing club fans was easier than to no known fans at all.

Cari wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Loyalty went out of the window as soon as the game went proffessional and players had to earn a proper living from it.

In the amateur days you would very rarely see someone from Ponty go to Cardiff or Swansea to Llanelli etc etc but now if club X comes in with big offer they go and who can blame them.

That's the thing Bedford, the players had no choice but to go pro, and why not earn a crust from doing something you love like play rugby if you're good enough? it seems to me that a section of fans can't accept that rugby has had to go professional and get behind a region.  can't say I blame them when the powers that be seem to have made such a pigs ear of it all.

Cari,

Again I agree can't blame them at all and everyone is free to make own decison etc I have friends and family who refuse point blank to go to watch the Dragons play because of the way it was set up but they will travel all way to Swansea to watch the Ospreys - go figure!!!!!!!!

For a while I didn't buy into the Regional thing but living outside Wales may have made it easier but I thought well if I want to go and see the Welsh stars play then I have to go watch a Region (or travel to France hehe) and Dragons are my Region so I followed them, was a season ticket holder and have the shirt etc etc and I know they do a lot in and around Gwent.

Ah yes, that's a fair point Griff...bit of a Catch 22 isn't it? Damned when they did...and if they didn't. As Bedford pointed out, they are trying to drop the place names now I've noticed - certainly in Ospreylia anyway - unless your name's Jiffy and you're commentating on a Scarlets match though.  

I have to say that I had it easy. I was a Newport RFC season ticket holder for years, and while I certainly feel there's a difference and we're not just Newport RFC in a different kit (the boo boys will argue differently), essentially all I had to do was turn up as normal and stand in the same place and watch rugby. I sympathise with those who would need a whole change of habit, financial outlay, infrastructure, social side, etc. to come to watch the Dragons. It's a lot to ask. Hand on heart I don't think I would have got a season ticket if it was based in Ebbw Vale. I'd certainly try to go to some of the big games. But one of the reasons I started to watch rugby is because it's on my doorstep and part of a (dwindling!) social scene where a big group of local lads went to the rugby and then out on the town afterwards. Driving or using public transport which would take up half the night is just less appealing. I guest that puts me in the cowboy hat and daffodil head brigade, but hey ho! Although 14 years with a season ticket at Rodney Parade must count for something in diehard stakes!

If it had gone to Ebbw Vale or Pontypool then I expect I would have remained a Newport RFC season ticket holder. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Similarly, I don't think there is anything wrong with Ebbw or Pontypool fans, for example, if they prefer to get a club season ticket rather than a regional one. It doesn't help regional attendances, but that's life. If we look at football there are plenty of people who support lower league football. Real die hards. They don't get slated for not ditching their side and following the nearest premier league team. In fact their eulogised for being grass root fans and supporting the game. The life blood, if you will. Yet in Wales, the grassroots fan is vilified as the scourge of the game. I get that it's not a great comparison; football clubs are distinct from each other but in welsh rugby your club is part of a region. However, not many people have the time or money to watch both. As long as people are happy to go to rugby of some sort then I think that's fine. Money is then coming into the game at some level. Asking fans to pack up their team in support of their region may sound good from a business point of view but I feel more comfortable letting people make the choice, but not vilifying them if they don't choose one of the 4 pro options as they Friday/Saturday game of choice.

Griff,

Fair play as I have had lots of arguments over the years with Newport fans who said why don't people support the Dragons, I have said ok would you have supported them if as you say they played in Eugene Cross or Pontypool Park in predominently Ebbw or Pooler colours etc and like you most said mmmmmmm maybe not so.

In the beginning the New New Newport chants undoubtedly put other fans from around Gwent off but I cant remember the last time I heard anything other than Dragons chanted at a game now.

I still follow my club Ebbw Vale - always have done always will do but I support my Region to, which in one sense is where the different kick off times come in handy.

I try and combine a weekend home with when Dragons are home on a Friday night and Ebbw home on a Saturday and make a weekend of it but if they all kicked off at say 2/3 o'clock then people would have to make a choice between club and Region.

Don't get me wrong I'd still support the Dragons if they were Ebbw or Pontypool based. They'd still be my region after all. I just wouldn't get there much! See, for me the social side of rugby support is a huge motivational factor. It's why I go. And I know that my rugby crowd would be reduced, split up really, if Ebbw was the venue so only a couple of us would go. The social side, the whole reason for me going in the first place, to watch rugby with my rugby watching mates, would be taken away. So I'd end up not going. However, Newport RFC would still be a way to fulfil the social rugby experience so if it came to it I wouldn't mind too much if I ended up attending semi-pro rugby. Let's be honest, as a Dragons fans it's not like I'm their because of the quality rugby! (Although it's a lot better this season).

Griff wrote: Let's be honest, as a Dragons fans it's not like I'm their because of the quality rugby! (Although it's a lot better this season).

We all do it just for the love of it Griff   

I agree Griff I go to watch the Dragons more for the rugby side (bring on the digs lol) but the Ebbw side is far more of a social thing for me as I meet up with old friends some of whom are the ones who wouldn't step foot inside Rodney Parade and wearing my Dragons top into the Bridge pub for a Dragons v Ospreys match few seasons back was bravest thing I have done and that includes serving overseas in hot deserts lol

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote: Let's be honest, as a Dragons fans it's not like I'm their because of the quality rugby! (Although it's a lot better this season).

We all do it just for the love of it Griff   

I agree Griff I go to watch the Dragons more for the rugby side (bring on the digs lol) but the Ebbw side is far more of a social thing for me as I meet up with old friends some of whom are the ones who wouldn't step foot inside Rodney Parade and wearing my Dragons top into the Bridge pub for a Dragons v Ospreys match few seasons back was bravest thing I have done and that includes serving overseas in hot deserts lol

  

I'm not ashamed to admit I was an ospreys fan for a while when I went a bit anti Newport. But now we are a lot Gwent orientated now and sing Dragons only, it's easier to get behind. I like to mention sometimes that it's easier to support the region wherever you live and that is true as though we have all regions within 50 miles, it's still a pig driving to say Swansea from Gwent for a Friday night game. That's what annoys me a bit, is that it should make sense to go just down the road and watch supposed top class rugby on your doorstep (for those in the south anyway).

There's a lot of nonsense involved with every region. Drags still get the townies thinking it's their club and the Herberts trying to claim it as a county team that doesn't exist anymore. Valleys rugby still sound off about how they're the answer operating on a third of a budget (really?) and we get regions that still hold onto their club's history and shout their city name at games. But I don't think we can change them at all, just have to stick with it till the young guys properly get behind what we got. Gates aren't too bad for all regions considering what we got at the mo and steps are being made at all regions to be more inclusive (promoting from within, doing training camps/roadshows around the region etc).

kingjohn7 wrote:Notch, the Irish and Scottish Unions are funding their own teams. Yes the WRU need to do something but why should they fund something that isnt theirs (talking from their viewpoint here). Would IRFU fund the provinces to the same extent if they were privately owned/runned?
"But ffs, if they allow the regions to die and set-up new regions who is going to support them?" Maybe they are thinking, it cant really get any worse so why not set up some true 'Regions' run by them, it could work a long way down the road.
Must say this pretty depressing.

I would say; absolutely not, and I'm delighted we didn't go down that route. I just don't understand the way regionalisation was handled in the first place. It always was sowing the seeds of future dissent.

Actually for a long time Ulster weren't funded as well as Leinster and Munster by the IRFU because our set-up was very poor off the field, and our CEO was a fool. Once we got a good CEO in they started funneling more resources towards us resulting in the signings of Pienaar, Muller and Wannenburg which set us on the path to where we are now.

Having poorly run regions is very difficult. But the WRU can't force failing off field management structures to change. Maybe they should offer more money in exchange for shares in the regions.

I dunno how that can work though Notch. In theory the Drags being 50% owned (in theory) should be alright already, but that and being prudent spending hasn't done us many favours.

No, it hasn't- to be honest I haven't seen much to dissuade me from my initial impression that both the Union and the Regions have some terrible eejits in high places.

What has to happen is that if fans want the regions they have to go and vote with their feet and get down to fill up the stadiums. Only the sight of rising attendances is going to convince the Union that regions merit more funds.

But maybe only the sight of better-funded regions who can keep their best players will get the crowds turning out

Maybe another thing is contract top-ups. The regions to offer key internationals what they can and the Union to augment those contracts on top of the PA. But then I hear they are practically encouraging the exodus...

Yeah that ain't a great rumour. Thankfully, our three or four current internationals aren't that big a deal or are tied down well (Toby)   

Yep I would like to think some agreement could be made wherein the WRU could loosen the purse strings but could work with the regions to see where the excess goes (as regards wages). It's essentially what the IRFU and provinces do but it would need a lot more goodwill and common sense for the welsh to succeed

It does happen already to a certain extent. There have been cases of signings being blocked by the WRU recently, but the details of which I'm a bit hazy on.

I think that an important point came up about attendances of the regions not increasing as well as the provinces have since 2003 and saying it should e higher have always sort of looked at the H-cup success for the difference, but another point has come up here.

A few fans said they were Newport fans and found the transition easy but can appreciate the difficulties Ebb Vale etc fans would have had, and I am sure the same applies across all the regions. Attracting fans from all over the region to the team appears to have been an issue with most.

I think the missed point is that rugby in Wales has always been popular, whereas in Ireland it is a new found popularity. For Munster I doubt if the majority of the crowd used to be Shannon or Limerick season ticket holders, or fans in the RDS used to be St Marys etc season ticket holders, same applies to all the Provinces most of the fans turning up are fairly new rugby supporters or previously attended maybe the odd club game.

Where as in Wales rugby was already popular and fans already attended games of clubs (and still do) therefore there wasn't the same opportunity of attracting fans new to the game, the same way there was in Ireland. I think this point should be considered anytime anyone mentions the regional attendances in relation to the Provinces attendances.

So the question is are there a large number fans in Wales that previously didn't/don't attend rugby that the regions can attract?

Notch wrote:I understand why they don't want to throw good money after bad money because the regions strike me as having been run exceptionally poorly- especially with regards to decisions being made about grounds like Cardiff City Stadium

Apparently it was a "rugby decision".
How we all laughed.

I think the Welsh game is in total melt down with fans leaving in droves.  I can only speak for myself but in 3 years I have never missed a game for the Ospreys except for last Fridays one.  Every holiday or family event I arrange it around the Ospreys, if there is any clashes the family event has always missed out, and yes I do include funerals and weddings in that!

I had the chance to go to Butlins for only £116 Friday to Monday, I came back this evening to go to work tomorrow.  I knew full well the Ospreys were playing at home and to be honest I didn't give a toss.  I just went on holiday, I didn't think about the game while it was going on and only found out about the result by accident when I was reading a copy of the Daily Mail in Mcdonalds in Minehead.  

As a season ticket holder, all I can say is lots of the present I have given this christmas have come from the club shop, including all my Christmas cards with the Ospreys sign and a santa hat on the top, baby clothes for my nephew and his first rugby ball, etc.  But yet when the Ospreys were playing I forgot they were even playing and didn't even think to check the result the following day.

If you told me this time last year that I would miss an Ospreys game to go on holiday instead I'd of thought you were mad, but I'm so cheesed off with it all now.  I'm not renewing next year either, the only thing that might change my mind is the Frankie and Bennys offer which you get  20% your final bill in any South Wales store, we do go there regularly so unless I work out the savings for us all to eat there are more than the actual season ticket over a whole year then I won't bother.   

over 10,000 Ospreys went to watch the Ospreys against French opposition last season in the Heinkan Cup, this season just over 6,000 went, that's 4,000 fans in a single year vanished.   

Shifty wrote:I think the Welsh game is in total melt down with fans leaving in droves.  I can only speak for myself but in 3 years I have never missed a game for the Ospreys except for last Fridays one.  Every holiday or family event I arrange it around the Ospreys, if there is any clashes the family event has always missed out, and yes I do include funerals and weddings in that!

I had the chance to go to Butlins for only £116 Friday to Monday, I came back this evening to go to work tomorrow.  I knew full well the Ospreys were playing at home and to be honest I didn't give a toss.  I just went on holiday, I didn't think about the game while it was going on and only found out about the result by accident when I was reading a copy of the Daily Mail in Mcdonalds in Minehead.  

As a season ticket holder, all I can say is lots of the present I have given this christmas have come from the club shop, including all my Christmas cards with the Ospreys sign and a santa hat on the top, baby clothes for my nephew and his first rugby ball, etc.  But yet when the Ospreys were playing I forgot they were even playing and didn't even think to check the result the following day.

If you told me this time last year that I would miss an Ospreys game to go on holiday instead I'd of thought you were mad, but I'm so cheesed off with it all now.  I'm not renewing next year either, the only thing that might change my mind is the Frankie and Bennys offer which you get  20% your final bill in any South Wales store, we do go there regularly so unless I work out the savings for us all to eat there are more than the actual season ticket over a whole year then I won't bother.   

over 10,000 Ospreys went to watch the Ospreys against French opposition last season in the Heinkan Cup, this season just over 6,000 went, that's 4,000 fans in a single year vanished.    

Great post Shifty - makes it easy for us all to understand.

It is a sad state Shifty and unfortunately its not just one thing that could be fixed once, its a variety of things including:

Performances on the pitch
Kick off times
Marketing
Player exodus
On-going disputes with ERC and WRU
Players away with Wales.

Some have easier fixes than others some are long term on-going projetcs but all need looking at.

With the current dispute I have got to the 'meh not another dispute here we go again' attitude its just constant drivel in the most with nothing constructive coming out of it at the end.

To me the answer is staring us all in the face. Personally I'd:

Go to PRL and the RFU and offer them a British, Italian and Irish league. Take the 12 Aviva teams and add the top 8 Rabo teams. To make a new 20 team league.

This is possible, as if you remove the Heinaken Cup, LV Cup and remove the league play offs, you have room for 38 games, or 20 teams.

Below the new 20 team Premiership, you put the remaining 4 Rabo teams into a championship with the 12 English championship teams, and add another 4 teams. It doesnt matter what these 4 teams are Scottish Borders, Caledonia, RGC 1404, or simply add 4 teams from English National league one.

Provided in the first year you have 4 Championship teams up and 4 Premiership teams down, so the Rabo teams have a good chance of getting up quick.
If the table finished as it stands now then Cardiff, Connacht, Treviso and Zebre would be in the English championship, and I'd fancy the first 3 teams to go up to the Premiership in the first year anyway, especially against English championship teams.

Then all you need to agree is that all 12 Rabo and Aviva have equal funding for the first season, then I don't see why this can't work.

Relegation wouldn't be too hard, ALL teams can get relegated from the Premiership, however only English teams can be relegated from the Championship. Basically you'd take the English teams head to head results, removing any non English teams from the final league table and relegate the bottom team.

All the Rabo Unions need to do then is pay the PRL a fee for National teams players like the RFU currently do. While RRW would clearly have to merge into PRL.

Shifty wrote:To me the answer is staring us all in the face.  Personally I'd:

Go to PRL and the RFU and offer them a British, Italian and Irish league.  Take the 12 Aviva teams and add the top 8 Rabo teams.  To make a new 20 team league.  

This is possible, as if you remove the Heinaken Cup, LV Cup and remove the league play offs, you have room for 38 games, or 20 teams.

Below the new 20 team Premiership, you put the remaining 4 Rabo teams into a championship with the 12 English championship teams, and add another 4 teams.  It doesnt matter what these 4 teams are Scottish Borders, Caledonia, RGC 1404, or simply add 4 teams from English National league one.

Provided in the first year you have 4 Championship teams up and 4 Premiership teams down, so the Rabo teams have a good chance of getting up quick.  
If the table finished as it stands now then Cardiff, Connacht, Treviso and Zebre would be in the English championship, and I'd fancy the first 3 teams to go up to the Premiership in the first year anyway, especially against English championship teams.

Then all you need to agree is that all 12 Rabo and Aviva have equal funding for the first season, then I don't see why this can't work.  

Relegation wouldn't be too hard,  ALL teams can get relegated from the Premiership, however only English teams can be relegated from the Championship.  Basically you'd take the English teams head to head results, removing any non English teams from the final league table and relegate the bottom team.

All the Rabo Unions need to do then is pay the PRL a fee for National teams players like the RFU currently do.  While RRW would clearly have to merge into PRL.  

Can't see that ever happen, especially with the PRL. Fans just wouldn't accept it.

Sorry Shifty, I just can't see it happening either. You can't have a league where the English get relegated but the Ex-Rabo don't, but also where both ex-Rabo and English get promoted. You could end up with a situation where you lose an English team each year and they're replaced by an ex-Rabo team. Why would the English go for that?!

Griff wrote:Sorry Shifty, I just can't see it happening either. You can't have a league where the English get relegated but the Ex-Rabo don't, but also where both ex-Rabo and English get promoted. You could end up with a situation where you lose an English team each year and they're replaced by an ex-Rabo team. Why would the English go for that?!

Everyone would be able to get relegated from the Premiership, including the Rabo teams, but no one non English team could drop below the Championship. the English would never have less than 8 teams in the Premiership, because no new non English teams could get promoted to the championship. Though it'd tecnically possible to have a 20 team English premiership.

Premiership
__________
1 Saracens
2 Northampton
3 Bath
4 Harelquins
5 Leicester
6 Exeter
7 Wasps
8 Sale
9 Newcastle
10 Gloucester
11 London Irish
12 Worcester
13 Munster
14 Leinster
15 Glasgow
16 Ulster
------------------
17 Ospreys
18 Scarlets
19 Dragons
20 Edinburgh


Championship
___________
1 Blues
2 Treviso
3 Zebre
4 Connacht
----------------
5 London Welsh
6 Rotherham
7 London Scottish
8 Leeds
9 Bristol
10 Cornish Pirates
11 Plymouth
12 Bedford
13 Nottingham
14 Moseley
15 Jersey
16 Ealing
17 Doncaster
18 Rosslyn Park
19 Esher
20 Wharfdale

Right so EVERY team can get promoted too; or relegated from the Premiership, however no NON ENGLISH team can go below the championship. For the purposes or relegation you'd simply take the head to head results of the English teams and relegate the bottom team, so only these teams would count:

1 London Welsh
2 Rotherham
3 London Scottish
4 Leeds
5 Bristol
6 Cornish Pirates
7 Plymouth
8 Bedford
9 Nottingham
10 Moseley
11 Jersey
12 Ealing
13 Doncaster
14 Rosslyn Park
15 Esher
16 Wharfdale

It's impossible for the English to have less than 8 teams in the Premiership, however it is possible for them to have 20 teams in the Premiership, with all the Rabo teams in the championship.

This just appeared in my Facebook newsfeed...

http://ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/32007

Oh dear, Wales...

http://ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/32007

A public inquiry...really!?

I see what you mean now shifty. Makes more sense now you've explained!

Are those values legit? Less than a million for the Pro12 in Ireland? Can't be for both RTE and BBC can it?

Hammer - the figures quoted in that statement by RRW are absolutely laughable.  Ridiculously inaccuruate and they know it.

Thats why they say 'estimated' and 'proposed', estimated and proposed by them no doubt.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Thats why they say 'estimated' and 'proposed', estimated and proposed by them no doubt.

Surely they have to use those words as they don't have access to the accounts of those clubs etc

Well, thats the shot in the arm professional rugby in Wales needs. A long, protracted public enquiry.

That'll get the fans back in their droves! Jeez if I were a Welsh professional rugby player I'd be falling asleep listening to teach yourself French tapes every night.

Some relevant questions. Whether the figures are accurate or not at least we can see some of the grievances in more detail now ... although we always knew it was about money!   

Duw, what a blydi mess eh! 

Is this not them just trying to cause more trouble so the WRU will cut them loose? I imagine Roger will be fielding calls from the other unions today

Standulstermen wrote:Is this not them just trying to cause more trouble so the WRU will cut them loose? I imagine Roger will be fielding calls from the other unions today

I think it's them trying to get public support and publicise what they think the WRU are trying to do. Starve the regions until they go bust and start again.

Got to be the worst business statement I've seen in a while.

Half the questions are totally self explanatory. Half the countries they refer to only have 2 pro sides. I'm sure the WRU would be willing to match it if the regions are reduced by 2 as well. Its simple maths boys.

Then all the TV viewing incoming just makes me laugh. Do they really think TV broadcasters will be lining up for increased TV revenue from sides based in Llanelli and Swansea? Its not London guys and to be quite frank the I'm not surprised the TV coverage income from Ireland & Scotland isn't any better either. Bottom line is the Pro 12 is still in its infancy and I doubt the options for revenue income will sky rocket anytime soon.

Clearly someone is talking to the PRL again and buying into their false promises. Joining their league would be a monumental mistake as with the standard of performances we are producing at club level in Wales, within 5 years 3 out of 4 of our regions would be relegated and playing in National Division 1. Given the funding is dire in Division 1, it would totally collapse the game in in Wales.

Surely it would be better to be part of a league where at least you will be certain of top level rugby each season? It allows you to develop and build for the future. Half the English sides cant develop that way because of the risk of financial meltdown by relegation.

I just love it that everything comes down to the PRL, it's always there fault.

I know it's christmas and that time of the year but surely painting the PRL as the panto villain is getting a bit boring.

They wont be getting support from me. I don't want the regional game to go independent.

It does bother me that they seem to be throwing a lot of blame at the WRU. Take the Blues for example, with their location and general population around, why cant they have larger attendances? Its because they play woeful half of the time with no sense of urgency or style to their game. Fans want to be entertained there have been far to many games in the last 5 years which just haven't appealed to fans. I know some Blues supporters who have stopped going because of this reason. The regions have a duty to their season ticket holders to produce entertaining rugby. You wouldn't renew your annual cinema ticket for example if you didn't enjoy the films they offered at your local cinema?

It seems to me as if they are a bunch of children looking for more trust fund again. I wish common sense would prevail and they would just work with what they have and started addressing the real issues instead of laying blame elsewhere.

Welshmushroom wrote:They wont be getting support from me.  I don't want the regional game to go independent.

It does bother me that they seem to be throwing a lot of blame at the WRU.  Take the Blues for example, with their location and general population around, why cant they have larger attendances?  Its because they play woeful half of the time with no sense of urgency or style to their game.  Fans want to be entertained there have been far to many games in the last 5 years which just haven't appealed to fans.   I know some Blues supporters who have stopped going because of this reason.  The regions have a duty to their season ticket holders to produce entertaining rugby.  You wouldn't renew your annual cinema ticket for example if you didn't enjoy the films they offered at your local cinema?

It seems to me as if they are a bunch of children looking for more trust fund again.  I wish common sense would prevail and they would just work with what they have and started addressing the real issues instead of laying blame elsewhere.  

Isn't the problem the players, they breed the talent but then they can't afford to keep them. Without that talent, fans won't come to watch.

It's sort of a catch 22, they need an injection of money.

nathan wrote:I just love it that everything comes down to the PRL, it's always there fault.

I know it's christmas and that time of the year but surely painting the PRL as the panto villain is getting a bit boring.

I didn't say it was the PRL's fault. But clearly RRW want to join the Aviva at this stage or at least control their own destinies (similar to how the PRL operate). Given the regions track record with managing themselves, its asking for trouble. Gallagher couldn't manage a coffee shop and having even appointed him as head of RRW is just laughable. Talk about a Job for the boys.

nathan wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:They wont be getting support from me.  I don't want the regional game to go independent.

It does bother me that they seem to be throwing a lot of blame at the WRU.  Take the Blues for example, with their location and general population around, why cant they have larger attendances?  Its because they play woeful half of the time with no sense of urgency or style to their game.  Fans want to be entertained there have been far to many games in the last 5 years which just haven't appealed to fans.   I know some Blues supporters who have stopped going because of this reason.  The regions have a duty to their season ticket holders to produce entertaining rugby.  You wouldn't renew your annual cinema ticket for example if you didn't enjoy the films they offered at your local cinema?

It seems to me as if they are a bunch of children looking for more trust fund again.  I wish common sense would prevail and they would just work with what they have and started addressing the real issues instead of laying blame elsewhere.  

Isn't the problem the players, they breed the talent but then they can't afford to keep them. Without that talent, fans won't come to watch.

It's sort of a catch 22, they need an injection of money.

Actually even when they did have the talent they couldn't draw the crowds. Ospreys should have easily been filling out the Liberty 3/4 years ago with the squad they had. Sadly no one went to see them. I don't know why because to be quite frank it was a hell of a squad they had there.

New Zealand lose all their best players also so why does this not affect them in the same way? Because they produce talent and that talent then takes over the mantle. In fact I would argue that their promote from within policies drive the local support. The Blues for example only want more money so they can bring in more overseas (welsh 3 year qualified) players. What kind of message does that send to youngsters? At least by creating opportunities for youngsters you will secure the next generation of rugby. I see our stars leaving no different to player retirements. Its part of the cycle.

Isn't it a basic tenet of the free market that if you don't offer a product people want your overheads eventually exceed your income until your collateral is gone and you go bust. Put another way, irrelevant businesses go bust and rightly so.

That's why I've got little confidence in the future of the current four regions. They are just not well supported for one reason or another. Let's face it, if they had average attendances in excess of 15k we wouldn't be in this mess. Scarlets attendance is down this year some 3k on average. I watched the Clermont game. We put up a brave fight for the first half and then got outmuscled. No surprise. We just don't have the quality to compete at this level. Who on earth other than the diehards would want to go and watch a team of youngsters get out-brawned by a stupidly rich french team? There's no marketing, no players worth watching, no chance of consistently challenging the french, no reason to get excited about being there. Dead in the water.

Honestly, whatever the politics or the rights and wrongs of all this is, I'm just fed up of all the steamy cow pats we fans have to put up with. If we can support 4 teams then WRU put your hands in your pockets and help us hold on to our assets. If we can't then regions, say so - let's pull the plug and reorganise so we can get on with rebuilding. Either way, SORT IT OUT FFS!   

Sorry, probably getting grumpy, thinking of getting up for work tomorrow  

Welshmushroom wrote:

nathan wrote:I just love it that everything comes down to the PRL, it's always there fault.

I know it's christmas and that time of the year but surely painting the PRL as the panto villain is getting a bit boring.

I didn't say it was the PRL's fault.  But clearly RRW want to join the Aviva at this stage or at least control their own destinies (similar to how the PRL operate).  Given the regions track record with managing themselves, its asking for trouble.  Gallagher couldn't manage a coffee shop and having even appointed him as head of RRW is just laughable.  Talk about a Job for the boys.

A truly awful chairman. Seriously. I stopped going to Stradey because he was in charge. I couldn't bear to put money into an organisation he was screwing over so badly. I only went back to PYS when he left. Awful, awful, awful. I still get cold sweats thinking about him.

At least a few years ago you had the likes of Jerry Collins and Marty Holah over here. Now we seem to be recruiting from New Zealands lower tier, Canada and whatever other country they can recruit poorly paid professionals.

Look Ireland, Scotland and Italy also have to deal with their stars leaving but you don't hear them releasing statements questioning their unions. Welsh rugby is seriously kidding itself if it thinks a move to the Aviva will be the answer to their financial worries.

What concerns me is the after Wednesdays meeting all parties leaving had said things where looking positive. Why then release this stupid statement, which will clearly anger the WRU. Maybe that's part of the plan so current negotiations break down.

Interestingly only the Ospreys have this on their website at the moment.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Isn't it a basic tenet of the free market that if you don't offer a product people want your overheads eventually exceed your income until your collateral is gone and you go bust. Put another way, irrelevant businesses go bust and rightly so.

That's why I've got little confidence in the future of the current four regions. They are just not well supported for one reason or another. Let's face it, if they had average attendances in excess of 15k we wouldn't be in this mess. Scarlets attendance is down this year some 3k on average. I watched the Clermont game. We put up a brave fight for the first half and then got outmuscled. No surprise. We just don't have the quality to compete at this level. Who on earth other than the diehards would want to go and watch a team of youngsters get out-brawned by a stupidly rich french team? There's no marketing, no players worth watching, no chance of consistently challenging the french, no reason to get excited about being there. Dead in the water.

Honestly, whatever the politics or the rights and wrongs of all this is, I'm just fed up of all the steamy cow pats we fans have to put up with. If we can support 4 teams then WRU put your hands in your pockets and help us hold on to our assets. If we can't then regions, say so - let's pull the plug and reorganise so we can get on with rebuilding. Either way, SORT IT OUT FFS!   

Sorry, probably getting grumpy, thinking of getting up for work tomorrow  

Couldn't agree more. Our U20 in north wales are drawing in the same amount of people through the gates as 3 out of 4 of our regions. Imagine if they actually had pro rugby up there? To be honest they deserve it and that's coming from someone who is in Gwent. I wouldn't be happy about losing my regional team., of course I wouldn't. That said, if it result with a region that is self sufficient because it has the supporters to do it then I couldn't really raise much of an argument. At the end of the day our regions have had ever opportunity to make things work in the last 10 years of existence. They seem to be more focused on who they have playing for them than actually how they play the game. Give supporters passion as entertainment and they will come to support you.

I actually don't think the populations in some of our regional areas can support the amount of teams we have at this level anyway.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

nathan wrote:I just love it that everything comes down to the PRL, it's always there fault.

I know it's christmas and that time of the year but surely painting the PRL as the panto villain is getting a bit boring.

I didn't say it was the PRL's fault.  But clearly RRW want to join the Aviva at this stage or at least control their own destinies (similar to how the PRL operate).  Given the regions track record with managing themselves, its asking for trouble.  Gallagher couldn't manage a coffee shop and having even appointed him as head of RRW is just laughable.  Talk about a Job for the boys.

A truly awful chairman. Seriously. I stopped going to Stradey because he was in charge. I couldn't bear to put money into an organisation he was screwing over so badly. I only went back to PYS when he left. Awful, awful, awful. I still get cold sweats thinking about him.

Yep he is a proper numpty. The sooner we can get ex players and old administrators out of our game the better. I want professionals with no vested interest running our game commercially. Why? Because that way they remain impartial and make the right decisions more often than not.