What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Of course they're badly run. They were formed in bad blood to a lot of disagreement from clubs and fans. They're a very distant second to the international side. They've had little additional financial support from the union (unlike other unions in a similar position) even when the union is posting record turnover.

And yet they've still failed to draw the crowds and produce a profit. Terribly run.

Also that independant report found that either 1 or all but 1 didn't have sensible plans in place (or something like that).

blues gonna break even this year apparently, Hammer  

Intotouch wrote:People here keep saying that the regions have been badly run. It's said as though it's an accepted fact but is this really true? Are all of them really badly run and where is the evidence for this?

Here's a BBC Sports report 7/11/2012:

Damning report questions survival of Welsh rugby regions

A long-awaited report into Welsh rugby's regions says some of the four may not survive their financial plight and criticises "poor management".
Accountants PriceWaterhouseCoopers assessed the regions' finances up to April 2012 and highlighted options for the future. They raise, but dismiss, a return to a club-based system and central contracts for leading players.
To balance the books, the report recommends more collaboration between the Welsh Rugby Union and regions, "enforced" by a new management board.
Five Welsh regions were initially formed in 2003, reduced to four a year later with the demise of Celtic Warriors, leaving Newport Gwent Dragons, Cardiff Blues, the Ospreys and Scarlets competing in European competitions, what is now the Pro12 tournament and the LV= Cup.
The aim of the change from a club-based structure was to improve the standard of professional play and put the game on a sounder financial footing.
Since then the players who helped Wales win Six Nations Grand Slams in 2005, 2008 and 2012 have overwhelmingly come from the four regions.
The PriceWaterhouseCoopers report was commissioned jointly by the WRU and regions and the BBC has obtained a copy.
The report states: "The historical financial performance shows the four regional businesses are not sustainable on a standalone basis in their current form without continued additional funding from benefactors or alternative funding sources."
Despite rising income from the WRU, the report says the regions' annual funding gap rose from £2m in 2008 to £5.2m in 2011 despite a £5m increase in revenue during that period.
A funding gap reduction to £3.8m for the financial year ending in April 2012 is forecast - in the past those gaps have been met by the regions' benefactors.
But the report warns the regions cannot continue to rely on benefactors, saying: "We understand from regional representatives that the impact of the global financial crisis, together with benefactors becoming disillusioned with a relationship of conflict has removed most or all of this support for the regional businesses."
"Poor management" is also blamed for the regions' plight, and the report adds they "could and should have been run in a more professional and commercial manner and poor decision making has contributed to the size of the funding gap.
"Also, the regional management teams have at times been ineffective due to the overriding influence of the benefactors," the report adds.
Projections show that in the financial year ending in 2013, the gap will disappear, with a projected surplus of £0.5m. The main reason is a reduction in costs, thanks to the introduction of a £3.5m salary cap. However, PriceWaterhouseCoopers believe those projections are highly ambitious.
The overall quality of the financial information provided by the regions was poor according to the report, which comments: "Not all regions were able to provide us with an up-to-date business plan."
However, the report says the four organisations have begun to address management and performance issues through cost-cutting and a "strong emphasis on improving commercial and marketing activities".
In addition, the report says the regions have now accepted they cannot compete financially with certain English and French clubs and have focused on developing younger players.
The lure of potential European success in the Heineken Cup is also highlighted as a reason behind the regions' financial issues, along with the signing of overseas players on higher wages than their home-grown counterparts.
None has yet won the Heineken Cup, but Cardiff Blues won the European second-tier Amlin Challenge Cup in 2010.
Of five Pro12 title wins by Welsh regions since 2003, the Ospreys claimed four and the Scarlets one.
The report says if the WRU took on more risk by assuming greater responsibility for the regions "it logically should have a greater degree of control.
"However, this could lead to a requirement to treat the regions as subsidiary companies, which we we understand would not be acceptable to the WRU."
A return to Welsh rugby's pre-regional club structure is among seven options the report considers.
This would "potentially reinvigorate attendance levels". But the idea is dismissed because of a "potential loss of income" and the "dilution of playing strength" and would also be "reverting to a structure that was previously unsuccessful".
The report adds: "It is unlikely the current model will be sustainable in the short-term," and cites continuing to cut player costs will "impact competitiveness of the regions and, potentially, the national squad".
An option of the WRU centrally contracting players and reducing the £6m they give to the regions for Test players "does not address the structural funding gap" they are operating under.
Changing the season's structure so that competitions run in succession would improve marketing opportunities and increase international players' availability. But that would need the agreement of the WRU's counterparts throughout Europe and the International Rugby Board as well as current sponsors and broadcasters.
Reducing the number of regions would concentrate playing and coaching resources and reduce costs. However, it would also lead to a "likely reduction in income" amid renegotiated broadcasting and competition agreements as well as limiting the opportunities for players.
If the WRU were to take over the regions, there would be potential cost savings as well as "clearer lines of responsibility and decision making". But the report's authors fear doing so could mean less money for grassroots and Premiership rugby and "the WRU would potentially breach its banking covenants".
The seventh - and seemingly favoured option in the report - is for the WRU and regions to "adopt a closer collaborative approach" with the formation of a management board to enforce it. The report says this "requires a positive change in the WRU-regions relationship."
The report says the advantage of such a move would maintain regional identity and benefactor involvement and "can be implemented quickly", but adds the solutions being considered should be "evolutionary, not revolutionary, so as not to jeopardise current income streams."
The BBC understands the regions will meet to discuss the report in the next few days.

All well and good, Munchkin, but that's only what the WRU, which commissioned the report, has allowed to be published. The rest of it hasn't seen the light of day, which is odd.

Also the Regions and WRU formed the PGB and the WRU, after the first meeting, decided not to bother with it. This was the main point raised by the Report and the most sensible option out of the 7. It seems that the Regions have been trying to get their act together (as mentioned in the report).

Intotouch wrote:People here keep saying that the regions have been badly run. It's said as though it's an accepted fact but is this really true? Are all of them really badly run and where is the evidence for this?

From a Cardiff point of view, yes, but we're a lot better now, all things considered. Still more to do however.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:All well and good, Munchkin, but that's only what the WRU, which commissioned the report, has allowed to be published. The rest of it hasn't seen the light of day, which is odd.

There could well be damning evidence of the WRU involvement in the regions, LP. I am just posting an article in response to a question of whether there is evidence that the regions were badly managed. The PWC report did also point to the need for WRU to be more financially supportive of the regions.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also the Regions and WRU formed the PGB and the WRU, after the first meeting, decided not to bother with it. This was the main point raised by the Report and the most sensible option out of the 7. It seems that the Regions have been trying to get their act together (as mentioned in the report).

Yeah and "poor management", as quoted in the article, would refer to the regions and the WRU.

Something aint right out West;

http://carmarthenplanning.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/allowable-expenses.html

Cardiff Dave wrote:Something aint right out West;

http://carmarthenplanning.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/allowable-expenses.html

Or maybe not;

Council leader responds to Scarlets row....

http://www.carmarthenjournal.co.uk/Council-leader-responds-Scarlets-row/story-20319815-detail/story.html#ixzz2ninU8NeN

Don't you just love spin? How the media (or anyone using the media) can twist and alter reality to fit their view. so we have the same event being...corrupt public officials giving handouts to a professional sporting body...or...civic minded public officials utilising unused space for development and benefit to the whole region.

Keep up people. Story updated;

"The WRU has not responded formally, because it says it is still awaiting notification of the inquiry demand.
However, it points out Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) sit as voting directors on the organisations that distribute the competition revenue and the WRU says RRW have not historically raised these issues.
And the WRU says the four regions have been part of ERC, the body which runs the Heineken and Amlin competitions, since 1999, and adds that as part of Celtic Rugby Limited, the organisation that runs the Pro12, the regions have agreed and signed up to the funding distribution."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25394813

"Wales' regional rugby chief executive, Stuart Gallacher, has resigned from the boards of the Pro12 and European Cup"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25418189

Whoop Whoop

HammerofThunor wrote:Don't you just love spin?

The Cardiff City Stadium spin drove me bananas.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Keep up people. Story updated;

"The WRU has not responded formally, because it says it is still awaiting notification of the inquiry demand.
However, it points out Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) sit as voting directors on the organisations that distribute the competition revenue and the WRU says RRW have not historically raised these issues.
And the WRU says the four regions have been part of ERC, the body which runs the Heineken and Amlin competitions, since 1999, and adds that as part of Celtic Rugby Limited, the organisation that runs the Pro12, the regions have agreed and signed up to the funding distribution."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25394813

"Wales' regional rugby chief executive, Stuart Gallacher, has resigned from the boards of the Pro12 and European Cup"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25418189

Think Gallacher had stated that he was going to step down from his role in Celtic Rugby a couple of weeks ago, or at least that he was considering it, and now his PRO 12 position. The regions going to turn their backs on the Rabo? or is it a high risk game of chicken? Either way, this may seriously damage the Rabo hopes of sponsorship in the New Year. Well done chaps  

Hey, you guys got into bed with them. It's alright, you've got the trustworthy French to guard your back with the ERC.

HammerofThunor wrote:Hey, you guys got into bed with them. It's alright, you've got the trustworthy French to guard your back with the ERC.

'them' isn't at the root of the problem. That would be the underhand dealing of McCafferty and co. of the PRL whose expert handling of negotiations has managed to isolate the AP clubs from further participation in next years European competition, as well as isolate the RFU from the 5 Unions leading up to the WRC. Genius I say....
Yes, the trustworthy French. The PRL really, really, screwed up there, didn't they. The LNR used them to get what they wanted out of negotiations, and then dumped them. This is the same guys who think they can run a European competition........

The regions are a joke. How can they complain and want an enquiry in to the distribution of TV funds when they sit on the very boards that decide these things and have never ever raised a concern about it?

Do they think everyone is as stupid as they are?

I can't wait for them to leave to be honest. Then Wales can have 3 or 4 real regions that everyone can support. These super clubs are struggling to get 6,000 people through the gate even when they are mostly stand alone re-incarnations of old clubs. truly pathetic.

Good riddance to badly run corrupt rubbish.

Stuart Gallacher, what a joke he is. The biggest crook in West Wales.

HammerofThunor wrote:Don't you just love spin? How the media (or anyone using the media) can twist and alter reality to fit their view. so we have the same event being...corrupt public officials giving handouts to a professional sporting body...or...civic minded public officials utilising unused space for development and benefit to the whole region.

If ever a piece of land was 'unused space' it would be the over spill car park at the Scarlets ground.

doctornickolas wrote:The regions are a joke. How can they complain and want an enquiry in to the distribution of TV funds when they sit on the very boards that decide these things and have never ever raised a concern about it?

Do they think everyone is as stupid as they are?

I can't wait for them to leave to be honest. Then Wales can have 3 or 4 real regions that everyone can support. These super clubs are struggling to get 6,000 people through the gate even when they are mostly stand alone re-incarnations of old clubs. truly pathetic.

Good riddance to badly run corrupt rubbish.

Stuart Gallacher, what a joke he is. The biggest crook in West Wales.

Is your first line correct? I thought the unions negotiated the tv deals, not the clubs? Isn't that what half the HC argument is all about?!

On your second point, what is a 'real region' in rugby terms in Wales? Do me a favour and define it for me and tell me who the fans will be. Just so we can discuss it and debate the point. Thanks.

We're so far past the debating stage that the line is a dot to us now.

Time to run for shelter and wait to see what's left behind after this ugly storm that's brewing.

Even the eternal optimist crowd ('the regions will be fine when the new generation of kids support us/we get proper funding/Henson comes back etc etc etc) have gone very quiet.

Ominous.

Castarelli - I too now feel the regions have had their chance. Price Waterhouse was a serious turning point. The regions had to respond. They just aren't up to the task. Time to raise the phoenix from the ashes. No more super clubs - they never did truly become regions. Let the clubs be clubs - it's time for something new to take the place of the regions.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Castarelli - I too now feel the regions have had their chance. Price Waterhouse was a serious turning point. The regions had to respond. They just aren't up to the task. Time to raise the phoenix from the ashes. No more super clubs - they never did truly become regions. Let the clubs be clubs - it's time for something new to take the place of the regions.

But what?

Casartelli, TotallyBiasedScarlet- My worry would be you're just going to get the regions mark 2. The WRU should be sending out surveys to every rugby club, supporters club and regional season ticket holder in the country to see what fans actually want! You'd probably get as many responses as there are respondents but at least any decisions made would be based on knowledge of the market any new sides (or current sides) are facing.

It just seems like there is no-one in Welsh rugby with any idea other than "The crowds will just show up". No marketing, no analysis to see where the demand is greatest and whats stopping people coming along, precious little trying to reach out to fans who are still peed off about how regionalisation was handled to start with.

I hope the irony of the regions publicly complaining about how little they receive from the competitions they are in just as the Pro12 is negotiating an absolutely crucial new sponsorship deal and entering a new broadcast deal with Sky Sports which could lead to more lucrative opportunities in the future isn't lost on anybody. This whole saga is like a massive warning sign to sponsors and broadcasters saying 'put your chequebooks away'.

We're stuck with you guys. We're all interdependent and I wish your administrators were more competent  :roll

No doubt you guys are even more frustrated. I really do sympathise.

It just underlines how much we (the Irish) need to be in a competition with the English and French. If Wales wipe the slate clean at the end of the season and start with new regions over again, we'll not have great quality opposition in the Pro12.

As an outsider, I hope that a deal can be done where the WRU take over the day to day running of the four Welsh regions and reform them from the inside.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Castarelli - I too now feel the regions have had their chance. Price Waterhouse was a serious turning point. The regions had to respond. They just aren't up to the task. Time to raise the phoenix from the ashes. No more super clubs - they never did truly become regions. Let the clubs be clubs - it's time for something new to take the place of the regions.

But what?

What options do you think remain? I think it's pretty obvious. The regions need at least £7m a year to be competitive. I can't see them getting that with an Anglo-Welsh. I can't see them getting it from the WRU. I can however see the WRU putting some £16m or so into their own sides (I mean purely union run). I'm not advocating it. I'm just saying that seems to be the only logical course of action. I do honestly think though it's time to wind down the "regions" as they exist. They just can't compete and according to PWC they are up poop creek without a paddle. Time for difficult decisions methinks - not a situation I'm impressed by or happy with at any rate!

Also reading the Gallacher article - he's only stepped down from the Rabbo & HC boards not the RRW as I hoped ... dang it!

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Castarelli - I too now feel the regions have had their chance. Price Waterhouse was a serious turning point. The regions had to respond. They just aren't up to the task. Time to raise the phoenix from the ashes. No more super clubs - they never did truly become regions. Let the clubs be clubs - it's time for something new to take the place of the regions.

But the PWC report said the Regions were improving but there was a funding gap. Simply that the Regions cannot generate enough money to compete in Europe and the WRU weren't giving enough to fund the gap. The regions have cut back and based on (optimistic) projections they were collectively start making a profit in a few years. The key thing they recommended was the formation of the PGB. Which the WRU in on but when the independent chairman (who they picked) didn't use his deciding vote to back them they pulled out.

But if they wound up the Regions would they be rehashed any better than last time, would they be better organised, better funded and located to represent true Regions would they go back to clubs etc etc.

Notch wrote:It just underlines how much we (the Irish) need to be in a competition with the English and French. If Wales wipe the slate clean at the end of the season and start with new regions over again, we'll not have great quality opposition in the Pro12.

As an outsider, I hope that a deal can be done where the WRU take over the day to day running of the four Welsh regions and reform them from the inside.

Couldn't agree more with your first post but this one I disagree with - if Wales gets this right you will have quality opposition. Our problem in Wales is getting decent people running things properly and in a financially viable way.

Hammer, the board was just one option of many. Lots of people have suggested it's not an effective solution - just a talking shop. I agree the regions have cut back their spending, but that in and of itself is a massive problem. Stars leaving, can't compete, fans leaving in their thousands. It's a downwards spiral.

bedfordwelsh wrote:But if they wound up the Regions would they be rehashed any better than last time, would they be better organised, better funded and located to represent true Regions would they go back to clubs etc etc.

They can't go back to clubs .... well they can try!

Seriously, I would hope that they would be set up far more professionally. They don't need to set up new clubs - just centrally contract the players - appoint coaching and support staff and get some decent marketing bods in to sell the games. I think it's a more straightforward solution than we realise.

WRU owned/managed teams seems inevitable. It'll be shambolic and underfunded for, at least, 4-5 seasons but will offer some crumbs of hope for the future.

The only other option (assuming the half-way house of 'regional/superclub' rugby is dead in the water) would be promotion to and from the Welsh Premiership, with funding/parachute payments for those going up and down. As far as I'm aware this is not a preferred WRU option.

gcBlues wrote:blues gonna break even this year apparently, Hammer  

& the Dragons -Don't let some facts get in the way of your complete lack of knowledge

Casartelli wrote:WRU owned/managed teams seems inevitable.  It'll be shambolic and underfunded for, at least, 4-5 seasons but will offer some crumbs of hope for the future.  

The only other option (assuming the half-way house of 'regional/superclub' rugby is dead in the water) would be promotion to and from the Welsh Premiership, with funding/parachute payments for those going up and down.  As far as I'm aware this is not a preferred WRU option.

£16m between 8-10 clubs - not going to go far is it?

If the regions are wound up and new WRU sides with central contracting set up I would expect a large number of players to leave TBS. Of course there is still a very large reservoir of talent in Wales but a lot of leading Welsh players will jump ship, more than those who are possibly going already. Every player would basically have to resign with a "new" team and I'm sure a lot will go to England and France instead.

I actually think that the Welsh teams will bounce back after that with players coming through the Academy. And a lot of guys who are currently playing overseas may decide to come back to Wales after a few seasons of adding to their retirement fund. But for a season or two at least they will badly suffer on the field.

Of course, it may be preferable for the standards of the Welsh sides in the Pro12 to drop sharply and then begin to recover again rather than the current situation where the teams seem to get worse each year. Maybe long term new teams with extra investment from the WRU are a better idea- but the WRU has to fund them appropriately.

Looks like they probably will go nuclear option now. I've no doubt they think they can from a legal perspective force a move to the Aviva.

The real issues is they have been promised sums of gold and I don't believe have actually checked this with their supporters, which is a gamble on their part. Do they think the risk is worth it? Sure they may get more money and protection from relegation for a season or two but what happens to their support overnight if they are playing in National division 1? Who will fund them getting promoted again because at that level they are all semi professional clubs with limited resources (without backers funding). Are the owners really then going to put the resources in again to make it work, assuming the WRU would completely push out any funding for those teams under the current structure. Also do they think the fans will pay to watch that? I'm just not sure they really have thought this through.

The worst part is if they do this, and despite their best efforts to get public backing, they will come out of this looking like the villains. Regional rugby wasn't supported well enough to begin with the unhappy club fans left out of the game.

That would leave the WRU with the "We tried to resolve it but they left anyway argument" which would see them coming out of this exchange the better of the two. Additionally it would then allow them to force change to Central Pro Contracts, re-organising regional rugby by geographical area, probably reduce the amount of teams to increase the individual funding to make them more competitive at regional level, not to mention totally control all aspects of employment from physio's, managers, coaches to players at all levels. The WRU wouldn't look to short change their development policy either and probably put an end to overseas players (or at least to begin with).

The more I think about it, the more I actually think this would be a key moment in the game. I could envisage regional rugby moving to 3 teams based on geographical area (North, South West, South East). They would automatically retain their TV financing which wouldn't be moved to the current regions due to the deal being struck with the WRU. They could drive further nails in the coffin later by securing a stay in wales policy only applying to their nominated teams. I'm not sure if anyone would end up staying with the existing welsh sides at that stage because they cannot enhance their careers without international recognition.

I feel optimistic because I think this scare mongering will only strengthen the game in Wales in the long run. I have always believed welsh rugby should always be a right for the whole of wales. I would be disappointed to see the Dragons fold but if that gives rugby a voice in the north of the country then so be it. It wont change my love for the game or my passion for it.

Regional rugby has had 10 years to succeed in enticing fans to it and as I have always said the fact people haven't warmed to it because of local loyalties has put the pro game in those locations at risk. I know a franchise in north wales would be well supported and if they draw in twice the numbers any of the current regions bring in then you would have to say it would be a success.

I certainly believe that in order for welsh rugby to move in one directions, goals and decisions need to be clear and decisive. People have to pull in the same direction and the regions chairmen and the WRU have never agreed on the core aspects of the game.

The sad thing in all this is that I don't believe our benefactors for current regions will throw large sums of money into it. That would leave the clock ticking on the Scarlets and the Dragons straight away. Cuddy has moved on and it's unclear if the Ospreys board are even that focused on additional investment. Dragons are probably at most risk. Brown wont get involved and the other guys there don't have the cash in the long term if things go badly.

One thing I am sure of as a passionate rugby welsh fan is that the game in wales will be just fine. I don't doubt that any reorganisation by the WRU will be for the good of the game throughout wales. Maybe this time round they will start from scratch and make certain fans from all over wales are represented. I don't buy into this notion that we have a divine right to have pro rugby on our door steps. If you cant go watch your local pro side then you are losing your right to an opinion in the first place.

I've no doubt I will be slated for my view on here but so be it.....

Double post edited.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:It just underlines how much we (the Irish) need to be in a competition with the English and French. If Wales wipe the slate clean at the end of the season and start with new regions over again, we'll not have great quality opposition in the Pro12.

As an outsider, I hope that a deal can be done where the WRU take over the day to day running of the four Welsh regions and reform them from the inside.

Couldn't agree more with your first post but this one I disagree with - if Wales gets this right you will have quality opposition. Our problem in Wales is getting decent people running things properly and in a financially viable way.

Hammer, the board was just one option of many. Lots of people have suggested it's not an effective solution - just a talking shop. I agree the regions have cut back their spending, but that in and of itself is a massive problem. Stars leaving, can't compete, fans leaving in their thousands. It's a downwards spiral.

I agree. If the WRU gets it right then it's just possible that new Welsh regions can provide quality opposition for next year. Getting it right does involve wiping the slate clean, and I see this as WRU sanctioning 2 of the present regions moving into AP to become clubs, and buying the remaining 2 over. This will provide a player base for 2 new regions.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Casartelli wrote:WRU owned/managed teams seems inevitable.  It'll be shambolic and underfunded for, at least, 4-5 seasons but will offer some crumbs of hope for the future.  

The only other option (assuming the half-way house of 'regional/superclub' rugby is dead in the water) would be promotion to and from the Welsh Premiership, with funding/parachute payments for those going up and down.  As far as I'm aware this is not a preferred WRU option.

£16m between 8-10 clubs - not going to go far is it?

Exactly. It could only work if funding only kicked in on gaining promotion to the Rabo/Anglo Welsh/whatever-the-hell-exists in 18 months time, and then a parachute payment eased the drop back down for the demoted/lowest Welsh club in the top tier.

But it's not a WRU option 'going forward'.

This is going down the route of 3 or 4 centrally funded teams. It's just a matter of whether the WRU manage to work with the existing regions (seems unlikely?) or cobble together some new ones.

You would still have the same in fighting and the same bickering if they went to lets say 8 Clubs, what would those clubs where would they be based would they be back to the same old names etc etc.

bedfordwelsh wrote:You would still have the same in fighting and the same bickering if they went to lets say 8 Clubs, what would those clubs where would they be based would they be back to the same old names etc etc.

That 'scenario' is not on the WRU decision table.

No I think there is a realisation that 16million wont go far.  What it should do however is comfortably sign up anywhere to 60-90 top end players to play between 2-3 regions.  If would also put an end to the price increases the current regions put on themselves.  With only one paymaster agents would only be able to negotiate with teams outside of wales.  We have seen to many times players leaving regions to take a bigger pay packet in Wales for another team.  That would be the first major advantage.  A side product of such a system would be that players may end up representing their actual locations because the money incentive to move elsewhere in wales has gone.  

The average welsh player is already to well financed by in house bidding.  I also read a staggering statement that over 1 million is handed to agents over this process.  Its vital this money stops leaving the game because it cant sustain it.  With a single employer system you can basically stipulate your own agreements and agents wouldn't be able to throw in such clauses (unless of course overseas clubs are interested).

WRU owned regions I think would be for the best. But I get the feeling that the WRU wouldn't want to take the risk, or pay for them. Let's not forget that pro rugby only costs the WRU £6m (I.e. £1.5m player release costs, a cost they've insisted on themselves. It could be £0 if they stuck to the normal international release windows). They'd get the tv money all for themselves, but as we see now £6m plus tv money = underfunded, uncompetitive teams. So they'd have to up the amount they fund their self-run regions at a time when they seem reluctant to put money in. They'd potentially have to pay out playing or coaching contracts if they wanted to bring in new guys. Plus they'd have to incur all of the running costs of 4 X regions too such as marketing (ha!), ground rent/costs, community department, etc. They would get control of the merchandise income though, but that doesn't seem very lucrative.

They'd also potentially have to buy out current owners. I can imagine stubborn bar steward current owners putting a high price on their region just because they can. Rich men being stubborn - they are businessmen after all. See, by insisting on independent organisations with no union risk at inception they WRU now find themselves in a position where they will find it very hard to gain control.

One option will be to go down to 3 regions. Money money split fewer ways. But 4 is the magic number for me. For no sound reason really. I just like the round number of 4. I think the more we reduce the number of regions/franchises we'll still find the same problems and need to reduce again and again. 5 was too many so 4 was perfect. It's not working so 4 is no good and 3 will solve all our problems. We go to 3 and players will still leave as we won't be able to give everyone a game. We'll go to 2, etc., etc.

On the subject of franchises from my last post, one proposal may be to give pro franchises to club sides in Wales for a set number of years. Those sides are then not present in the Welsh Prem. At the end of the 3 year cycle (for example) the worst team, or a team not meeting targets, has their pro lease revoked and the best performing team from the Welsh prem gets the pro licence (e.g. Pontypridd currently). They then get the WRU pro investment, player release money, tv monies, etc.

The advantage of this would be that we have club rugby again, which won't be disguised as something it's not, so people will hopefully get behind it. The welsh prem then has something to play for, plus they have the WRU funding split amongst a smaller number of clubs.

The main disadvantage is what happens to team that loses it's licence - how do you reassign the contracts, marketing departments, behind the scenes staff? Parachute payments?! Not sure. Plus, there may be ground suitability issues.

We could start with the current lot Llanelli, Cardiff, Newport and Swansea or Neath (they can fight it out as a thanks for being the one true region!). Then in 3 years Newport, for example, would make way for Pontypridd who then take on the mantle. As the team losing the licence is likely to have been doing rubbish then they'll be in a 2nd tier euro comp, so the promoted team will enter the 2nd tier comp too as their replacement, so they'll have a nice relatively easy intro to pro rugby and a couple of years to make their mark.

Don't ask me what happens if they all do OK. Renew the licence I suppose.

Anyway, I've had a wine or two so will leave my rumblings there! Peace.

Hi Griff,

The WRU already provide the regions with 16 million (4 million each). That does include all the television rights as well but the WRU wouldn't hand that over as these are TV deals with Sky, BBC Wales & Scrum V for Pro 12 & HC coverage. The existing regions wouldn't be entitled to any of it the WRU replaces those teams with other teams. That 16 million would fund 3 regions to a far bigger value than currently happens.

I also don't see the WRU needing to buy the current regions. They can start from scratch, knowing that any new organisation wouldn't be riddled with debt or uncontrollable costs. They wouldn't inherit all the costs the regional sides have accumulated to playing in their respective stadiums, any of the staff or players they don't want to sign up.

Welshmushroom wrote:Hi Griff,

The WRU already provide the regions with 16 million (4 million each).  That does include all the television rights as well but the WRU wouldn't hand that over as these are TV deals with Sky, BBC Wales & Scrum V for Pro 12 & HC coverage.  The existing regions wouldn't be entitled to any of it the WRU replaces those teams with other teams.  That 16 million would fund 3 regions to a far bigger value than currently happens.

I also don't see the WRU needing to buy the current regions.  They can start from scratch, knowing that any new organisation wouldn't be riddled with debt or uncontrollable costs.  They wouldn't inherit all the costs the regional sides have accumulated to playing in their respective stadiums, any of the staff or players they don't want to sign up.

I agree. All the union have to do is pull the funding when the current participation agreement ends. Job done. Business men either walk away with big losses or throw good money after bad to keep the regions afloat. I think there are very very few options left. Lots of huffing and puffing left mind! I can also see it being 3 regions. My prediction - East & West main regions plus North development region with, at most, half the funding of the other 2.

Welshmushroom wrote:Hi Griff,

The WRU already provide the regions with 16 million (4 million each).  That does include all the television rights as well but the WRU wouldn't hand that over as these are TV deals with Sky, BBC Wales & Scrum V for Pro 12 & HC coverage.  The existing regions wouldn't be entitled to any of it the WRU replaces those teams with other teams.  That 16 million would fund 3 regions to a far bigger value than currently happens.

I also don't see the WRU needing to buy the current regions.  They can start from scratch, knowing that any new organisation wouldn't be riddled with debt or uncontrollable costs.  They wouldn't inherit all the costs the regional sides have accumulated to playing in their respective stadiums, any of the staff or players they don't want to sign up.

Starting from scratch then £16m does not go far. They'd potentially need new stadia for one, especially if the current regions still existed and played elsewhere. The £4m that the regions currently get probably just about covers the squads wages (wasn't the £3.5m wage cap just for HC squads?). Plus all of the coaches, medical, insurance, travel and accommodation, kit, etc). This will be even more difficult starting from scratch with no existing fan base (the reason they went for the current super club thing on the first place IMO) to generate sales revenue. I just don't see the WRU getting as much for £16m as we do now because of all of the additional costs they would need to take on.

Except it wouldn't be £16M. That's for 4 teams. Why would the WRU get the same cut for 3 teams? The £6M could go to them still (although most of the international players would be abroad so it wouldn't be for player release).

Good point Hammer. Yes, less teams means less tv money. So back to square one.

Griff wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Hi Griff,

The WRU already provide the regions with 16 million (4 million each).  That does include all the television rights as well but the WRU wouldn't hand that over as these are TV deals with Sky, BBC Wales & Scrum V for Pro 12 & HC coverage.  The existing regions wouldn't be entitled to any of it the WRU replaces those teams with other teams.  That 16 million would fund 3 regions to a far bigger value than currently happens.

I also don't see the WRU needing to buy the current regions.  They can start from scratch, knowing that any new organisation wouldn't be riddled with debt or uncontrollable costs.  They wouldn't inherit all the costs the regional sides have accumulated to playing in their respective stadiums, any of the staff or players they don't want to sign up.

Starting from scratch then £16m does not go far. They'd potentially need new stadia for one, especially if the current regions still existed and played elsewhere. The £4m that the regions currently get probably just about covers the squads wages (wasn't the £3.5m wage cap just for HC squads?). Plus all of use coaches, medical, insurance, travel and accommodation, kit, etc). This will be even more difficult starting from scratch with no existing fan base (the reason they went for the current super club thing on the first place IMO).  I just don't see the WRU getting as much for £16m as we do now because of all of the additional costs they would need to take on.

Why do they need new stadia - I'm pretty sure they could make a deal to use the Liberty and CCS. They've already got Parc Eirias and the MS available. As for all the other things you've listed - they appoint these sorts of people for the Welsh team anyway so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for them to arrange that. Money could be split £7m/£7m/£2-3m - it'd go a lot further than the £3.5m the current regions are on. I really think it would be pretty straightforward for the union to organise - They've already offered central contracts. I'd bet my bottom dollar they've been planning this for a while.

The WRU are committed to 4 teams in the Pro12 for a number of years - 2 more I think.

If they fail to fulfil that obligation they will owe money to IRFU and SRU by way of compensation