What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Griff wrote:Good point Hammer. Yes, less teams means less tv money. So back to square one.

Not necessarily. The SRU get's the same as the WRU from Europe but with fewer teams - a recently highlighted complaint. Of course it's likely that there would be negotiations on tv money etc but in addition Roger the Dodger has said the union will put more money into the regions in return for more control - evidently there's a bit more money in the WRU pot than is currently being given.

geoff999rugby wrote:The WRU are committed to 4 teams in the Pro12 for a number of years - 2 more I think.

If they fail to fulfil that obligation they will owe money to IRFU and SRU by way of compensation

Well they have got 200 odd clubs to pick from if they were desperate for representation. Extreme I know but I wouldn't put it past them!   

One thing that has struck me recently, and perhaps someone could answer, is about the ownership of the clubs and regions. 10 years ago we had 10 or 12 welsh premier teams. The WRU forced through mergers, but the clubs still existed (but costing far less I guess). Does/did that mean that the previous club owners, e.g. Newport, then had to run two businesses - Newport RFC and their half of the Dragons? That could have cause problems I suppose.

Perhaps my franchise idea above would help that situation, where club owners were only concentrating on one thing at a time.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Griff wrote:Good point Hammer. Yes, less teams means less tv money. So back to square one.

Not necessarily. The SRU get's the same as the WRU from Europe but with fewer teams - a recently highlighted complaint. Of course it's likely that there would be negotiations on tv money etc but in addition Roger the Dodger has said the union will put more money into the regions in return for more control - evidently there's a bit more money in the WRU pot than is currently being given.

There's millions more. If the WRU are competent then they will drastically the amount being overpaid to Barclays. This would free up massive amounts of cash.

Griff wrote:Good point Hammer. Yes, less teams means less tv money. So back to square one.

Not only this but they're going to be new teams, potentially with few/no international players (contracted elsewhere). So they may not be worth 3/4 what the previous 4 were worth previously (before mass exodus). Who knows.

But something had to happen at some point. It wasn't 'fair' as it was, in terms of coverage. The only two real possibilities were adding more teams due to the stable, self sustaining, successful regions not needing the funding...or starting from scratch. If it's he second better sooner than later, I suppose

I've got no problem with them starting again, scrapping the current regions, and doing what they want. I just don't think it will be as easy as some people think. I think the WRU can cover the wage bills OK. But I think the rest, the running and everything else is vastly more than we realise. Another reason the WRU didn't go down this route from the start.

If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Griff wrote:I've got no problem with them starting again, scrapping the current  regions, and doing what they want. I just don't think it will be as easy as some people think. I think the WRU can cover the wage bills OK. But I think the rest, the running and everything else is vastly more than we realise. Another reason the WRU didn't go down this route from the start.

The big difference here though is that the WRU will be starting teams from scratch - not clubs. They won't need all the staff - they just hire the stadia and bring in enough support staff to look after and advertise the teams. Costs should be significantly lower. They could even have a central marketing/admin team. I don't think it's that difficult to organise.

Hammer - in terms of the players if the WRU pull the funding by May/June I can confidently predict there will be a lot of players looking for new contracts before the summer. Getting the players won't be difficult. One other trick they can put up their sleeves is another "Gatland's Law" - honestly I think the union have all the leverage here. It's like a game of chess. You can either capitulate when you run out of options or fight on in the hope your opponent slips up and draw it all out. Regions in checkmate in a few moves I fear.

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Old story - CCC have been batting this one off for 6 years. They had their solicitors on it. Having said that they are not renowned for being the best council in the world .....  

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Already been covered. The councillor has bullshitted it all saying it was a deliberate misleading of facts by a rival councillor (or something like that). Also the reports said they took legal advise for the big stadium lend so unlikely they'd have to reclaim that. So it would be more likely up to £2M not £20M

Griff wrote:I've got no problem with them starting again, scrapping the current  regions, and doing what they want. I just don't think it will be as easy as some people think. I think the WRU can cover the wage bills OK. But I think the rest, the running and everything else is vastly more than we realise. Another reason the WRU didn't go down this route from the start.

I'm not sure that anyone thinks a restructure will be 'easy'. The WRU will probably need 2 or 3 goes at it and it will all be very messy.

The Llanelli/Carms CC thing has been raised a few times on here and other forums. It was always a ticking time bomb and a major lesson in why 'regions' should never have been allowed to run their own finances.

HammerofThunor wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Already been covered. The councillor has bullshitted it all saying it was a deliberate misleading of facts by a rival councillor (or something like that). Also the reports said they took legal advise for the big stadium lend so unlikely they'd have to reclaim that. So it would be more likely up to £2M not £20M

As far as I know CCC still own PYS - it's been leased to the scarlets for 150 years. Still a public asset technically. Scarlets may be forced to start paying rent though.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Old story - CCC have been batting this one off for 6 years. They had their solicitors on it. Having said that they are not renowned for being the best council in the world .....  

OK sorry... hadn't seen it raised.... still stand by my "Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities." opinion tho'

Oh and CCC.. read NPTCBC   etc etc

All run by <insert local village name> mafia

RDSguru wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Old story - CCC have been batting this one off for 6 years. They had their solicitors on it. Having said that they are not renowned for being the best council in the world .....  

OK sorry... hadn't seen it raised.... still stand by my "Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities." opinion tho'

Oh and CCC.. read NPTCBC   etc etc

All run by <insert local village name> mafia

Problem is they're all run by flawed human beings with various vested interests. We need a different model - a completely independent body running things. Now I've been working on this Artificial Intelligence program for a few years that could run welsh rugby completely fairly - Skynet I call it .... oh wait a minute ... I'LL BE BACK   

Puts Wales and AI into a new perspective!

RDSguru wrote:Puts Wales and AI into a new perspective!

  

That's what Roger's plan is! Judgment day coming up soon isn't it?   

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:It just underlines how much we (the Irish) need to be in a competition with the English and French. If Wales wipe the slate clean at the end of the season and start with new regions over again, we'll not have great quality opposition in the Pro12.

As an outsider, I hope that a deal can be done where the WRU take over the day to day running of the four Welsh regions and reform them from the inside.

Couldn't agree more with your first post but this one I disagree with - if Wales gets this right you will have quality opposition. Our problem in Wales is getting decent people running things properly and in a financially viable way.

Hammer, the board was just one option of many. Lots of people have suggested it's not an effective solution - just a talking shop. I agree the regions have cut back their spending, but that in and of itself is a massive problem. Stars leaving, can't compete, fans leaving in their thousands. It's a downwards spiral.

I agree. If the WRU gets it right then it's just possible that new Welsh regions can provide quality opposition for next year. Getting it right does involve wiping the slate clean, and I see this as WRU sanctioning 2 of the present regions moving into AP to become clubs, and buying the remaining 2 over. This will provide a player base for 2 new regions.

interesting. what players would they have?

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

not a chance this will happen. just the usual anti-region trigger happy brigade trying to discredit them.

tax breaks and stadium construction subsidies are 100% normal across the world and have NEVER been viewed as "state-aid" by the EU in the field of competitive sports.

if they did, then the irish tax exemptions for players would be way higher up the list as they come direcrtly from the irish givernment, rather than being a local government decision.

sorry to burst the bubble.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Griff wrote:I've got no problem with them starting again, scrapping the current  regions, and doing what they want. I just don't think it will be as easy as some people think. I think the WRU can cover the wage bills OK. But I think the rest, the running and everything else is vastly more than we realise. Another reason the WRU didn't go down this route from the start.

The big difference here though is that the WRU will be starting teams from scratch - not clubs. They won't need all the staff - they just hire the stadia and bring in enough support staff to look after and advertise the teams. Costs should be significantly lower. They could even have a central marketing/admin team. I don't think it's that difficult to organise.

Hammer - in terms of the players if the WRU pull the funding by May/June I can confidently predict there will be a lot of players looking for new contracts before the summer. Getting the players won't be difficult. One other trick they can put up their sleeves is another "Gatland's Law" - honestly I think the union have all the leverage here. It's like a game of chess. You can either capitulate when you run out of options or fight on in the hope your opponent slips up and draw it all out. Regions in checkmate in a few moves I fear.

they can only look for new contracts if their contracts are up. and would they rather be part of the WRU run clubs or play in the newly expanded anglo-welsh league?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

RDSguru wrote:Puts Wales and AI into a new perspective!

  

That's what Roger's plan is! Judgment day coming up soon isn't it?   

Which one... So many Judgement days in the offing....

Still looking forward to the actual Rugby tho' despite all the WRU/RRW/ERC/PRL/HC/RCC et al

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Already been covered. The councillor has bullshitted it all saying it was a deliberate misleading of facts by a rival councillor (or something like that). Also the reports said they took legal advise for the big stadium lend so unlikely they'd have to reclaim that. So it would be more likely up to £2M not £20M

As far as I know CCC still own PYS - it's been leased to the scarlets for 150 years. Still a public asset technically. Scarlets may be forced to start paying rent though.

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

quinsforever wrote:

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

All depends on the funding stream and the criteria on how the fund can be used. Not to mention evidencing for Audit purposes

Griff wrote:One thing that has struck me recently, and perhaps someone could answer, is about the ownership of the clubs and regions. 10 years ago we had 10 or 12 welsh premier teams. The WRU forced through mergers, but the clubs still existed (but costing far less I guess). Does/did that mean that the previous club owners, e.g. Newport, then had to run two businesses - Newport RFC and their half of the Dragons? That could have cause problems I suppose.

Perhaps my franchise idea above would help that situation, where club owners were only concentrating on one thing at a time.

As far as I understand it, Cardiff RFC Ltd totally own Cardiff Blues. Essentially from a business point of view they are the same entity. might explain why other clubs like Ponty are so annoyed with things. I think its the same in Newport - Newport RFC Ltd own 50% of NG Dragons. seems like the tail wagging the dog doesn't it ? Think its the same for the others, although Llanelli / Swansea / Neath RFC all went bancrupt so might have had a different end result and Neath RFC Ltd - are certainly at loggerheads with the Ospreys

And in Cardiff - Cardiff Athletic club, which I believe is a separate entity - and are owners of CAP - also come into the mix somehow !

regional rugby was a dog's dinner compromise at the start and is in an organisational mess !

RDSguru wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

All depends on the funding stream and the criteria on how the fund can be used. Not to mention evidencing for Audit purposes

nope. this is a complete red herring. EU would laugh it out of the court. just cause some WRU shaft-grasper thinks they have found a way to make mud stick against the regions doesnt change the fact that no sporting franchise or arrangement, ever, has fallen foul of EU state-aid laws. ever.

quinsforever wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Already been covered. The councillor has bullshitted it all saying it was a deliberate misleading of facts by a rival councillor (or something like that). Also the reports said they took legal advise for the big stadium lend so unlikely they'd have to reclaim that. So it would be more likely up to £2M not £20M

As far as I know CCC still own PYS - it's been leased to the scarlets for 150 years. Still a public asset technically. Scarlets may be forced to start paying rent though.

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

Scarlets agreement with CCC is to start paying rent when revenues pass a particular threshold. Nowt to do with EC.

Bluedragon wrote:

Griff wrote:One thing that has struck me recently, and perhaps someone could answer, is about the ownership of the clubs and regions. 10 years ago we had 10 or 12 welsh premier teams. The WRU forced through mergers, but the clubs still existed (but costing far less I guess). Does/did that mean that the previous club owners, e.g. Newport, then had to run two businesses - Newport RFC and their half of the Dragons? That could have cause problems I suppose.

Perhaps my franchise idea above would help that situation, where club owners were only concentrating on one thing at a time.

As far as I understand it, Cardiff RFC Ltd totally own Cardiff Blues. Essentially from a business point of view they are the same entity. might explain why other clubs like Ponty are so annoyed with things. I think its the same in Newport - Newport RFC Ltd own 50% of NG Dragons. seems like the tail wagging the dog doesn't it ? Think its the same for the others, although Llanelli / Swansea / Neath RFC all went bancrupt so might have had a different end result and Neath RFC Ltd -  are certainly at loggerheads with the Ospreys

And in Cardiff - Cardiff Athletic club, which I believe is a separate entity - and are owners of CAP - also come into the mix somehow !

regional rugby was a dog's dinner compromise at the start and is in an organisational mess !

Neath went bankrupt. Swansea was bailed out in the process of becoming the Ospreys. Scarlets sold off assets (Stradey Park) to stave off bankruptcy.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Already been covered. The councillor has bullshitted it all saying it was a deliberate misleading of facts by a rival councillor (or something like that). Also the reports said they took legal advise for the big stadium lend so unlikely they'd have to reclaim that. So it would be more likely up to £2M not £20M

As far as I know CCC still own PYS - it's been leased to the scarlets for 150 years. Still a public asset technically. Scarlets may be forced to start paying rent though.

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

Scarlets agreement with CCC is to start paying rent when revenues pass a particular threshold. Nowt to do with EC.

i apologise, i meant to post my comment on someone else's quote!

quinsforever wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Already been covered. The councillor has bullshitted it all saying it was a deliberate misleading of facts by a rival councillor (or something like that). Also the reports said they took legal advise for the big stadium lend so unlikely they'd have to reclaim that. So it would be more likely up to £2M not £20M

As far as I know CCC still own PYS - it's been leased to the scarlets for 150 years. Still a public asset technically. Scarlets may be forced to start paying rent though.

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

Scarlets agreement with CCC is to start paying rent when revenues pass a particular threshold. Nowt to do with EC.

i apologise, i meant to post my comment on someone else's quote!

No problemo   

quinsforever wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

All depends on the funding stream and the criteria on how the fund can be used. Not to mention evidencing for Audit purposes

nope. this is a complete red herring. EU would laugh it out of the court. just cause some WRU shaft-grasper thinks they have found a way to make mud stick against the regions doesnt change the fact that no sporting franchise or arrangement, ever, has fallen foul of EU state-aid laws. ever.

Not likely to go to court.

EU Money is public money, they assign money to be used in various different ways for various different reasons. The recipient has to use it according to the criteria set against it. If it gets used for a different purpose, or if evidence cannot be provided to show it was used for the assigned purpose, the money can be reclaimed.

I'm not going to argue the facts of the specific claims in the BBC article or reasons behind the report, allegations and motivations etc etc

Fact remains EU money comes with criteria that have to be met when "spending" that money. Whether the EU care is another matter, usually down to the pedantry of Auditors.

RDSguru wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

All depends on the funding stream and the criteria on how the fund can be used. Not to mention evidencing for Audit purposes

nope. this is a complete red herring. EU would laugh it out of the court. just cause some WRU shaft-grasper thinks they have found a way to make mud stick against the regions doesnt change the fact that no sporting franchise or arrangement, ever, has fallen foul of EU state-aid laws. ever.

Not likely to go to court.

EU Money is public money, they assign money to be used in various different ways for various different reasons. The recipient has to use it according to the criteria set against it. If it gets used for a different purpose, or if evidence cannot be provided to show it was used for the assigned purpose, the money can be reclaimed.

I'm not going to argue the facts of the specific claims in the BBC article or reasons behind the report, allegations and motivations etc etc

Fact remains EU money comes with criteria that have to be met when "spending" that money. Whether the EU care is another matter, usually down to the pedantry of Auditors.

i thought it was council money not EU money.

quinsforever wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

absolutely not. if a local council decides it wants to subsidise a sporting team for local business and economic reasons, then that is precisely what that local council will do. any hints that the EU will get involved are tosh of the highest order.

All depends on the funding stream and the criteria on how the fund can be used. Not to mention evidencing for Audit purposes

nope. this is a complete red herring. EU would laugh it out of the court. just cause some WRU shaft-grasper thinks they have found a way to make mud stick against the regions doesnt change the fact that no sporting franchise or arrangement, ever, has fallen foul of EU state-aid laws. ever.

Not likely to go to court.

EU Money is public money, they assign money to be used in various different ways for various different reasons. The recipient has to use it according to the criteria set against it. If it gets used for a different purpose, or if evidence cannot be provided to show it was used for the assigned purpose, the money can be reclaimed.

I'm not going to argue the facts of the specific claims in the BBC article or reasons behind the report, allegations and motivations etc etc

Fact remains EU money comes with criteria that have to be met when "spending" that money. Whether the EU care is another matter, usually down to the pedantry of Auditors.

i thought it was council money not EU money.

And I thought it was EU money!

If it's not, then oops and I apologise and won't argue.

Maybe I'm bringing too much work home!

Gallacher resigns from RRW & ERC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/10524424/Wales-rugby-crisis-deepens-as-chief-executive-of-Regional-Rugby-Wales-quits-Rabo-and-ERC-boards.html

Bluedragon wrote:

Griff wrote:One thing that has struck me recently, and perhaps someone could answer, is about the ownership of the clubs and regions. 10 years ago we had 10 or 12 welsh premier teams. The WRU forced through mergers, but the clubs still existed (but costing far less I guess). Does/did that mean that the previous club owners, e.g. Newport, then had to run two businesses - Newport RFC and their half of the Dragons? That could have cause problems I suppose.

Perhaps my franchise idea above would help that situation, where club owners were only concentrating on one thing at a time.

As far as I understand it, Cardiff RFC Ltd totally own Cardiff Blues. Essentially from a business point of view they are the same entity. might explain why other clubs like Ponty are so annoyed with things. I think its the same in Newport - Newport RFC Ltd own 50% of NG Dragons. seems like the tail wagging the dog doesn't it ? Think its the same for the others, although Llanelli / Swansea / Neath RFC all went bancrupt so might have had a different end result and Neath RFC Ltd -  are certainly at loggerheads with the Ospreys

And in Cardiff - Cardiff Athletic club, which I believe is a separate entity - and are owners of CAP - also come into the mix somehow !

regional rugby was a dog's dinner compromise at the start and is in an organisational mess !

And because of this, a solution won't be easy to come by. The WRU can't shut down the regions because it doesn't own them, and you can't buy someone out if they don't want to sell.

Casartelli wrote:

There's millions more.  If the WRU are competent then they will drastically the amount being overpaid to Barclays.  This would free up massive amounts of cash.

You're David Moffett aren't ewe?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19779419

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

RDSguru wrote:If Carms County Council are pinged for mis-appropriating EU Funds, the Scarlets are well and truly screwed, to the best part of £20 Million

"If a breach is found to exist then the European Commission can force the awarding body, in this case Carmarthenshire council, to recover the amount that's in breach of state aid regulations from the recipient," he said. (Martyn Jeffries European funding expert)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Sooner these regions get scrapped the better.

Or stop running themselves like Local Authorities.

 

Old story - CCC have been batting this one off for 6 years. They had their solicitors on it. Having said that they are not renowned for being the best council in the world .....  

Aye an old story, but with a couple of new bits regarding sale of a car park and a restructured loan.
Was following this on Scarletfever yesterday when the forum suffered a brief troll invasion.

Bluedragon wrote:

Griff wrote:One thing that has struck me recently, and perhaps someone could answer, is about the ownership of the clubs and regions. 10 years ago we had 10 or 12 welsh premier teams. The WRU forced through mergers, but the clubs still existed (but costing far less I guess). Does/did that mean that the previous club owners, e.g. Newport, then had to run two businesses - Newport RFC and their half of the Dragons? That could have cause problems I suppose.

Perhaps my franchise idea above would help that situation, where club owners were only concentrating on one thing at a time.

As far as I understand it, Cardiff RFC Ltd totally own Cardiff Blues. Essentially from a business point of view they are the same entity. might explain why other clubs like Ponty are so annoyed with things. I think its the same in Newport - Newport RFC Ltd own 50% of NG Dragons. seems like the tail wagging the dog doesn't it ? Think its the same for the others, although Llanelli / Swansea / Neath RFC all went bancrupt so might have had a different end result and Neath RFC Ltd -  are certainly at loggerheads with the Ospreys

And in Cardiff - Cardiff Athletic club, which I believe is a separate entity - and are owners of CAP - also come into the mix somehow !

regional rugby was a dog's dinner compromise at the start and is in an organisational mess !

Not forgetting Ponty's original region, the Celtic Warriors.
CAC come into the mix as they are the majority shareholders in Cardiff RFC.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Why do they need new stadia - I'm pretty sure they could make a deal to use the Liberty and CCS. They've already got Parc Eirias and the MS available. As for all the other things you've listed - they appoint these sorts of people for the Welsh team anyway so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for them to arrange that. Money could be split £7m/£7m/£2-3m - it'd go a lot further than the £3.5m the current regions are on. I really think it would be pretty straightforward for the union to organise - They've already offered central contracts. I'd bet my bottom dollar they've been planning this for a while.

Rent and running costs at CCS would be in excess of £500,000. That's if Cardiff City would let a rugby team play there, which I bet they wouldn't.

No rugby team can move to CCS while Cardiff are in the premiership.

Premiership clubs are not allowed to sign ground shares with rugby team, (its part of the premiership rules)
Clubs can sign the agreements when in championship or below and if promoted these agreements can continue (Swansea) but a team in the Prem cannot start a groundshare.

Meaning while Cardiff play football in the Prem CCS cannot be used by a rugby team (new WRU region or Blues)

So the same would apply to the Liberty for a new region as well?

Kingshu wrote:No rugby team can move to CCS while Cardiff are in the premiership.

Premiership clubs are not allowed to sign ground shares with rugby team, (its part of the premiership rules)
Clubs can sign the agreements when in championship or below and if promoted these agreements can continue (Swansea) but a team in the Prem cannot start a groundshare.

Meaning while Cardiff play football in the Prem CCS cannot be used by a rugby team (new WRU region or Blues)

To add to that, the main benefactor of the Ospreys Robert Davies is also the same at Swansea AFC, and can you see him allowing the WRU access to the Liberty.

Surely the WRU have said the new regions will be based around Ponty and Neath so talk of Liberty and CAR is not, directly, relevant.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

There's millions more.  If the WRU are competent then they will drastically the amount being overpaid to Barclays.  This would free up massive amounts of cash.

You're David Moffett aren't ewe?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19779419

Probably the most hurtful thing that anyone has ever said, to anyone, online.

Cyber bullying is a crime, you know.

Who is James Jones of the SWEP guys.

He posted this:I have to say it was a pleasure to visit Ireland and referee in the likes of Ravenhill, the RDS in Dublin and The Sports ground, Connacht often attracting crowds of 20,000 passionate supporters on a regular basis!


Not bad when their capacities are 13,000; 18,500; 7,500 respectively
Can be increased at a push to 14,000; 20,500; 9,500 respectively

Thats what I call being creative

In fairness thomond would have been over 20000. Do you not remember James Jones the ref. he was shockingly bad initially it was bizarre but he improved out of sight IMO. Someone must not have agreed though or else he quit. Haven't seen him ref in ages

Now you say Referee I do remember him.
That explains it a ref who can't can't count

The thing is Thomond is one ground he doesn't mentioned.

pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

geoff998rugby wrote:Now you say Referee I do remember him.
That explains it a ref who can't can't count  

The thing is Thomond is one ground he doesn't mentioned.

I don't think he actually counted them. Probably the inflated attendances reported from the Regional games has warped his sense of perspective.

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Now you say Referee I do remember him.
That explains it a ref who can't can't count  

The thing is Thomond is one ground he doesn't mentioned.

I don't think he actually counted them. Probably the inflated attendances reported from the Regional games has warped his sense of perspective.

Inflated attendances?! From a Dragons perspective I always feel they under report attendances. When the stadium looks pretty full (capacity 11,000), with just the odd gap and some space on the North terrace the attendance is somehow 6,000. Next week with a bit more space around you - 6,000! The joke on the terraces is that they under report due to the proximity of the tax office (just over the road) and that they may hear the tannoy announcement and therefore believe the books when they're audited!

geoff998rugby wrote:Surely the WRU have said the new regions will be based around Ponty and Neath so talk of Liberty and CAR is not, directly, relevant.

Have you ever been to Pontypridd or Neath's grounds ?

They are the anti-regions, the nemesis. The clubs that want to be regions but aren't

I hear there are protests planned over the xmas period;