What the hell is going on in Wales?

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Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

BBC carrying the story now. I always love the picture they put up of all the RRW boys sat next to Roger. They all look so happy to be there   http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25394813 Do you reckon he just let one off?

Typical of Cardiff, Llanelli and Newport looking after themselves as usual

Bit cheeky Llanelli looking for more money after the WRU have bailed them out all those times

How much money do Cardiff need as well? They demanded stand alone status for being a 'rich city club'. Has Peter been eating too many of his pies

Typical of Cardiff, Llanelli and Newport looking after themselves as usual

Bit cheeky Llanelli looking for more money after the WRU have bailed them out all those times

How much money do Cardiff need as well? They demanded stand alone status for being a 'rich city club'. Has Peter been eating too many of his pies

Its kind of a weird situation. In England, the teams are privately owned and mainly generate their own income with some funding by the Union- but generally are in charge of their own fate and responsible for getting by themselves. In Ireland, the teams are owned by the Union and heavily subsidised by the national team but also are quite well run and bring in a lot of money in sponsorship, merchandising and get big crowds.

In Wales you have the regions who are privately owned, but depend on being heavily subsidised by the Union and don't get big crowds, seem to be poorly run as businesses.

I think Unions should subsidise their sides when necessary as international rugby is the most profitable part of the game and it's the responsibility of the Union to look after rugby at every level. But if you want to run the regions as private businesses, then you're plan can't be Union funding. Either work with the budget you're given or give more control back to the Union in exchange for more money.

The regions need a bailout, but why shouldn't that money come with strings attached from the WRU?

Looks to me as if the "regions" want Dodger's dealings revealed for all to see.
David Moffet's views are interesting since he's been top bloke on both sides of the fence....

"Former Welsh Rugby Union chief executive David Moffett believes successor Roger Lewis' financial priorities for the game are wrong"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19779419

"David Moffett accuses WRU over row with Welsh regions"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22028771

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Thanks. It's a cracking article, especially the way he points out just how inflexible the WRU has been over funding.

It is mate except a few on here obviously haven't bothered to read it.

Notch wrote:Its kind of a weird situation. In England, the teams are privately owned and mainly generate their own income with some funding by the Union- but generally are in charge of their own fate and responsible for getting by themselves. In Ireland, the teams are owned by the Union and heavily subsidised by the national team but also are quite well run and bring in a lot of money in sponsorship, merchandising and get big crowds.

In Wales you have the regions who are privately owned, but depend on being heavily subsidised by the Union and don't get big crowds, seem to be poorly run as businesses.

I think Unions should subsidise their sides when necessary as international rugby is the most profitable part of the game and it's the responsibility of the Union to look after rugby at every level. But if you want to run the regions as private businesses, then you're plan can't be Union funding. Either work with the budget you're given or give more control back to the Union in exchange for more money.

The regions need a bailout, but why shouldn't that money come with strings attached from the WRU?

Heavily subsidised? The WRU pays each region £1.5m-ish for services and player access.
The regions don't need a bail out and there are already too many strings attached as it is.

The monies the regions recieve from the unions is earned by them through tv deals etc - they are not subsidised by the WRU -

Cardiff Dave and dragon999 - really?

The WRU isn't putting any money into the regional game whatsoever?  I find that very very doubtful and I think Notch has really hit the nail on the head in suggesting that RRW want funding from the Union and to be privately run businesses at the same time, which is an incredibly difficult if not impossible position to take. 

This article says the WRU pumped £22 million pounds into the Welsh game this year and I find it hard to believe that the regions saw absolutely none of that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24231513

As Notch said, either they can take what their Union is giving them or they can try and compete in the very harsh world of private business and to be frank with the current regions I really don't fancy the RRW chances of doing that.  If they think that being able to negotiate a new tv deal is going to sustain them then they are in dreamland.  Their option, at least what they claim is their option, is to join the aviva premiership where they will deal with relegation and compete in a 16 team league for 6 european places.  If they don't get any of those 6 european places they could find themselves with no European money.

Its time for the RRW to put up or shut up.  Take what the WRU is giving you with their conditions attached or go it alone.  Again I have to emphasise, I really don't fancy the chances of the current 4 regions in the big bad world out there, some of them can barely get a few thousand supporters at games as it is.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Cardiff Dave and dragon999 - really?

The WRU isn't putting any money into the regional game whatsoever?  I find that very very doubtful and I think Notch has really hit the nail on the head in suggesting that RRW want funding from the Union and to be privately run businesses at the same time, which is an incredibly difficult if not impossible position to take. 

This article says the WRU pumped £22 million pounds into the Welsh game this year and I find it hard to believe that the regions saw absolutely none of that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24231513

As Notch said, either they can take what their Union is giving them or they can try and compete in the very harsh world of private business and to be frank with the current regions I really don't fancy the RRW chances of doing that.  If they think that being able to negotiate a new tv deal is going to sustain them then they are in dreamland.  Their option, at least what they claim is their option, is to join the aviva premiership where they will deal with relegation and compete in a 16 team league for 6 european places.  If they don't get any of those 6 european places they could find themselves with no European money.

Its time for the RRW to put up or shut up.  Take what the WRU is giving you with their conditions attached or go it alone.  Again I have to emphasise, I really don't fancy the chances of the current 4 regions in the big bad world out there, some of them can barely get a few thousand supporters at games as it is.

Lookout a pro WRU article from the beeb. Seen the Jamie Roberts thread? I'll dig out some pro Cardiff City Stadium links if I can be arsked. They're a laugh. As i've mentioned it let's have an inquiry into that debacle. Were the WRU involved I wonder?
Anyway £9m of the pumped figure would be competition money, paid to the regions via the WRU who merely distributed it to the four. £6.2m was paid for player access and adhering to the PA. No idea about the rest. Maybe it was for the MS refurb.

scrap the LV Cup. Expand the AP to 16 teams. relegation, yes, but make the welsh teams immune for lets say 2 seasons to give them time to get their financials rebalanced if they have a nasty breakup with the WRU.

and off we go. onwards and upwards. would be a great league. the best in the NH.

and with that working well, Heineken Cup would be a "nice-to-have", and no longer a necessity for welsh regions.

In a nutshell then Dave, do you want RRW to be funded by the WRU (which will obviously mean the WRU have the final say over funding and the like) or do you want RRW to break from the WRU and go it alone?

quinsforever - the worrying thing is some Welsh fans and RRW believe every word of that perfidious albion.

I think the RRW want either to be given some slacking terms of what they do or to be given a larger amount of funding from the WRU to run the way they want them to.

Currently they're reasonably tightly controlled by the WRU but get relatively little money. They're in a weird half-way point between the english and Irish systems, and it doesn't work.

Aye, the Welsh regions should join the AP and never mind they would need to go through an expensive legal battle to even have that right and lose all their Union funding- that'll solve everything   

Just a pawn in a bigger game that way. For all that I agree that the WRU need to fund regional rugby better and are making a mess of it all, the idea of having everything fixed by moving to England is so stupid. The fact it's even being considered is a sign of just how bad the situation is.

Artful_Dodger wrote:In a nutshell then Dave, do you want RRW to be funded by the WRU (which will obviously mean the WRU have the final say over funding and the like) or do you want RRW to break from the WRU and go it alone?

Sort out Welsh rugby in a nutshell, now that's a challenge.
Well for starters I would want the WRU to pay the going rate. They are not currently and signing the existing PA would be "suicide for the regions". Dodger's goal seems to be paying off the MS as far as I can tell from reading Moffett's comments.
Also I would like to see the 4 being allowed to be who they want to be and be able to arrange their own affairs. Does that mean ditching the regional nonsense, oh yes.

In other words you want the WRU's funding but stipulate that the WRU will effectively have no say in the running of the game at club level?  Its a pretty outrageous position to take isn't it?

The WRU will feel if they pay 'the going rate'- say, for example, they fund the regions to the same extent as the IRFU fund the provinces- they should get what the going rate gets the IRFU.

All players in Ireland are contracted to the IRFU- they also handle all contract negotiations with international players centrally. They therefore have total access to all players when and if they need them and can control who plays in which position at provincial level and how many minutes each individual player plays. If the provinces want to sign someone not eligible for Ireland in a position they don't want them to, they can veto the signing.

I don't see how RRW can demand a similar amount of funding without giving the WRU a similar amount of control to that. And I say that as someone who agrees with Moffet in those articles you posted- I do think the WRU are negligent and very, very short-sighted. But you get what you pay for- and the WRU won't just hand over money without getting something back in return.

Welshmushroom wrote:Interestingly only the Ospreys have this on their website at the moment.  

I did think that was strange. If the RRW was showing a united front, surely this would have been issued by all four regions simultaneously?

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/news/6357.php

Edit: http://www.cardiffblues.com/news/6690.php#.Uq64in8gGK0

Fair enough, thanks Hammer. I only looked at tweets from last night when it was still only the Ospreys who's published it.

Can't see it on Dragons' website. Don't understand twitter so hadn't see that stuff

Someone had tweeted a link to the statement in the Ospreys' website, that's all.

Artful_Dodger wrote:In other words you want the WRU's funding but stipulate that the WRU will effectively have no say in the running of the game at club level?  Its a pretty outrageous position to take isn't it?

What funding are you talking about Artful? They give the regions their TV money, which any club earns. And they pay them £1.5m per region for the additional access to players that the national teams wants. Why wouldn't a club be paid for giving up players outside of the international window? It's over and above normal access so that has a price (as with English clubs too). When you look at the Scarlets, Ospreys and Blues, they all release around 10-13 players for an extra international in Nov plus the extra weeks preparation time before the 6N, tours and world cups. That's what the £1.5m is for. Not a huge amount for that number of players missing for 3 or 4 weeks on top of the current missed weeks in the international window.

There's no other funding going to the regions from the WRU.

The WRU (surprise surprise) cocked up the chance of an Welsh-English league even before the Regions were thrown together during yet another dispute with the then Clubs.

The RFU offered the WRU 4 places in the then English League (Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli), with Neath, Pontypridd being given places in the next division down but with the chance of promotion.

I read an interview with Jinks around the time and he said that the WRU should accept the deal as he felt more than confident that both Neath and Ponty would secure promotion in a season or two but the WRU stuck out for 6 teams and ended up with none.

Well at least we can't blame that one on Roger Lewis...

"It’s unfortunate that circumstances mean there isn’t the funding in place to allow boys who want to play in Wales to stay in Wales."

Richard Hibbard, on announcing his move to Gloucester. The WRU are quite short-sighted and naive to think that they can let the current regions go to the wall and these players will come flocking back once they set-up yet more sides with no real support. You'd have to suspect they'd try and do that on the cheap.

It's clear enough that he'd stay if he possibly could. It's so sad that the players are collateral damage in all this.

Need to remember that the regions haven't been able to act as actual regions either. They're basically just teams that play around South Wales. Andrew Hore has said several times he's tried to engage with the rugby in the Ospreys' region but has been told the WRU handle that and he should stick to pro-rugby. Which is just ridiculous.

Apparently there is to be a press release issued by the 'Welsh' at 2PM today. Don't know if it is WRU or RRW. At a guess I would think WRU in response to the RRW joint statement last night.

That reminds me, there was a very sycophantic interview with Roger Lewis in the Telegraph (I think it was the Telegraph) the other day, I'll see if I can find it.

Munchkin wrote:Apparently there is to be a press release issued by the 'Welsh' at 2PM today. Don't know if it is WRU or RRW. At a guess I would think WRU in response to the RRW joint statement last night.

Either that or Halfpenny has been given the Freedom of Gorseinon.

Or Warburton has dressed up as Santa.

Here we go:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/roger-lewis-french-clubs-are-endangering-the-european-game-8277961.html

It's over a month old, but I don't think it's been posted here before.

HammerofThunor wrote:Need to remember that the regions haven't been able to act as actual regions either. They're basically just teams that play around South Wales. Andrew Hore has said several times he's tried to engage with the rugby in the Ospreys' region but has been told the WRU handle that and he should stick to pro-rugby. Which is just ridiculous.

Nothing I've read has dissuaded me from my viewpoint that both sides are wrong.

Agree with you there Notch.

Neither the WRU or the RRW come out of this with an ounce of credit.

Munchkin wrote:Apparently there is to be a press release issued by the 'Welsh' at 2PM today. Don't know if it is WRU or RRW. At a guess I would think WRU in response to the RRW joint statement last night.

Where did you hear that?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Apparently there is to be a press release issued by the 'Welsh' at 2PM today. Don't know if it is WRU or RRW. At a guess I would think WRU in response to the RRW joint statement last night.

Where did you hear that?

From what I hear it is news on Gatlands contract being extended. Heard it on the grapevine   

Okay. I thought it might actually have been a statement from 'the Walsh', and it would be Louis saying Nicholas McDonald's got an album coming out in the new year.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Okay. I thought it might actually have been a statement from 'the Walsh', and it would be Louis saying Nicholas McDonald's got an album coming out in the new year.

Now that would be news!.....if I knew who Nicholas McDonald is?  

Notch, this has been an ongoing feud from the birth of regionalisation.

Regionism - it was setup badly by the WRU, its been run badly by the owners, its been embraced badly by the fans (probably understandably) and now we're faced with trying to solve a problem thas always been there, in the face of an even greater puzzle that is european rugby.

The issue of Euopean rugby has bought this disagreement to the spear-tip rapidly so through the loud whispers of the WRU/welsh management nudging players to leave the regions. This itself is leaving the regions with no aces to hold to their chest in the neogotiations of the Participation Agreement (which if the regions dont sign, they wont have any funding, any insurance, any officials supplied etc, essentially no chance of playing competitive rugby), the team wales players being their only useful cards in the neogotiations.

So in short, both sides are wrong, but knowing that doesnt solve the problem.

If you ask me, its the problems you get when non-rugby people are at the head of a rugby organisation. Credit-rating has overthrown rugby as the number 1 priority.

Apparently Richard Hibbard has complained about lack of funding in Welsh Rugby...now that he's moving to Gloucester...and on it goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KVHdsUkxMw

Llanelli problems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25390697

Wonder if this has come now because journalists have been digging or because 'someone' pointed it out to them.

Strong suspicion it is part of the Welsh civil war

HammerofThunor wrote:Wonder if this has come now because journalists have been digging or because 'someone' pointed it out to them.

I'd put a tenner on the latter.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Wonder if this has come now because journalists have been digging or because 'someone' pointed it out to them.

I'd put a tenner on the latter.

But who could that 'someone' be?

Also, from reading that it sounds like they got legal advice for the big wedge for the Parc y Scarlets. But didn't later, maybe thinking the same applied. So if it does end up getting reclaimed it would probably only be ~£1.5M, which seems a lot but not really that much.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Wonder if this has come now because journalists have been digging or because 'someone' pointed it out to them.

I'd put a tenner on the latter.

But who could that 'someone' be?  

It's on the tip of my tongue... unassuming bloke, goes about his business quietly, hates the spotlight...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Wonder if this has come now because journalists have been digging or because 'someone' pointed it out to them.

I'd put a tenner on the latter.

But who could that 'someone' be?  

It's on the tip of my tongue... unassuming bloke, goes about his business quietly, hates the spotlight...

Gatland?

People here keep saying that the regions have been badly run. It's said as though it's an accepted fact but is this really true? Are all of them really badly run and where is the evidence for this?