What the hell is going on in Wales?

by Intotouch Tue 10 Dec 2013, 12:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

by Cardiff Dave Wed 18 Dec 2013, 7:38 pm

quinsforever wrote:pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

Good spot.

by Casartelli Wed 18 Dec 2013, 8:04 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
quinsforever wrote:pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

Good spot.

So, give them VIP parking and a Diamond Club hospitality box at the Millenn' for them and their business chums.

It's all they ever wanted out of this rugby lark.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Wed 18 Dec 2013, 8:57 pm

Kingshu wrote:No rugby team can move to CCS while Cardiff are in the premiership.

Premiership clubs are not allowed to sign ground shares with rugby team, (its part of the premiership rules)
Clubs can sign the agreements when in championship or below and if promoted these agreements can continue (Swansea) but a team in the Prem cannot start a groundshare.

Meaning while Cardiff play football in the Prem CCS cannot be used by a rugby team (new WRU region or Blues)

There's always the Millennium Stadium, and besides I thought the Liberty was owned by Swansea council. Would the groundshare rules apply to a team that rents its stadium?

Given that the regions enjoy little popular support (attendances!) how far will these protests get us? There seems to be little sympathy for either side from most rugby fans I speak to. Most people seem to be pig sick of the entire debacle.

by Allty Wed 18 Dec 2013, 10:23 pm

[quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Kingshu"]No rugby team can move to CCS while Cardiff are in the premiership.

Premiership clubs are not allowed to sign ground shares with rugby team, (its part of the premiership rules)
Clubs can sign the agreements when in championship or below and if promoted these agreements can continue (Swansea) but a team in the Prem cannot start a groundshare.

Meaning while Cardiff play football in the Prem CCS cannot be used by a rugby team (new WRU region or Blues)[/quote]

There's always the Millennium Stadium, and besides I thought the Liberty was owned by Swansea council. Would the groundshare rules apply to a team that rents its stadium?

Given that the regions enjoy little popular support (attendances!) how far will these protests get us? There seems to be little sympathy for either side from most rugby fans I speak to. Most people seem to be pig sick of the entire debacle.[/quote]

Its a shambles.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 19 Dec 2013, 8:17 am

quinsforever wrote:pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

Good on him. You'd never get anyone at the WRU admitting it, especially not now.

by Standulstermen Thu 19 Dec 2013, 8:56 am

Andy Howell: Why disorganised Welsh regions are getting it so wrong in fight for survival
19 Dec 2013 06:00

Rugby correspondent Andy Howell gives his verdict on the four regions' joint PR attempts to promote the Welsh derbies

"You call a press conference to promote the Dominos Christmas derbies between the Welsh region and there’s not a pizza or a Wales star in sight.

You’d expect to find big hitters like Leigh Halfpenny, Alun Wyn Jones, Toby Faletau and Scott Williams to be in attendance, particularly as this was a Regional Rugby Wales promotion.

That’s the umbrella organisation which represents the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets and is at loggerheads with the WRU over the future of the professional game in Wales.

Yet only two head coaches – Scarlets’ Simon Easterby and Blues’ Phil Davies – were in attendance.

The rest of the cast and, no disrespect to its members because they’re good blokes, was made up of what the Hollywood film industry call B-listers.

Dragons, despite the event taking place on its patch at Newport’s Celtic Manor Resort, and the Ospreys sent their backs gurus, Darren Edwards and Gruff Rees. There was no Lyn Jones or Steve Tandy.

The list of players was topped by Wales international Ryan Bevington. Jonathan Spratt, Rhodri Williams, Gareth Maule, Hallam Amos, Cory Hill were also there while Sam Hobbs was the sole Blues player on duty. Hardly household names!

So how can you take an organisation which wants, in essence, to control professional rugby in Wales, seriously when it sometimes hasn’t got much of a clue when it comes to promoting, selling and financing the sport?

The chief executives of the regions should have been there, along with the directors of rugby and their star players.

Summing up RRW was a board with the eye-catching slogan ‘Protect Our Game’ propped up against a wall in the clubhouse of golf’s 2010 Ryder Cup.

Why wasn’t it hoisted behind Easterby, Davies, Rees and Edwards as they sat on top table in what was the American team room three years ago and which had the names Woods, Mickelson, Fowler, Furyk, Johnson, Stricker, Watson, Kuchar, Cink, Overton, Pavin and Mahan emblazoned high on the walls?

Phil Davies and Simon Thomas were the only two head coaches in attendance

Now that would have been a strong message of solidarity.

It wasn’t, perhaps because of the haste with which the press conference and the venue was arranged. It was announced less than 18 hours before being staged, despite the fixture list having been published months ago.

It was the same when it issued a press release late on Sunday night demanding a public inquiry into funding, which inadvertently highlighted how fortunate Welsh rugby is to have a television deal which is due to net it some £3.2m a year while Irish TV only pays an estimated £910,000 and Scottish £140,000.

You have to wonder why BBC Wales and S4C have been so generous with licence-payers’ money when there’s been such little competition for the contract?

Perhaps it’s a case of the Irish and Scots paying its true worth?

And we are talking about Irish teams, who make the Welsh regions look almost inept when it comes to attracting spectators, whether it’s in Europe or the RaboDirect Pro12.

Little Connacht had a crowd of 7,661 for last weekend’s Heineken Cup clash with Toulouse, a figure higher than any of the Welsh regions posted during their last home appearances in Europe.

Dragons had just 4,023 for their meeting with Bordeaux-Begles, Blues 6,144 against Glasgow, Ospreys 6,385 against Castres and Scarlets claimed 7,591 against last season’s Heineken finalists Clermont Auvergne.

Blues, Scarlets and Dragons had something riding on those fixtures, being in quarter-final contention at the time, so they can’t hide from the fact those turn-outs were nothing other than pathetic.

Yet the Irish provinces, who have lifted the Heineken Cup five times in the last eight seasons but who RRW wants to ditch in favour of some form of tie-up with England’s top clubs, didn’t have any trouble in managing to attract bumper home crowds, despite money still being tight over there.

Ulster pulled in 12,977 against Italian out-fit Treviso, Munster had 23,615 against James Hook and Luke Charteris’ Perpignan, and Leinster a whopping 47,370 against George North’s Northampton Saints.

England’s top attendance was the 21,404 posted by Leicester Tigers against Montpellier. Northampton had attracted 13,475 at home to Leinster, Harlequins 11,502 against Jamie Roberts, Mike Phillips and Dan Lydiate’s Racing Metro, Gloucester 10.973 against Perpignan, Exeter 10,744 against Toulon and big-spenders Saracens 7,395 against Zebre.

When you weigh up everything, you do wonder whether the regions have a future and even whether they deserve one.

Last year’s Price Waterhouse Cooper report into the management and financial situation of the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets was hugely critical and, judging by their latest efforts at promotion, it doesn’t seem like they’ve learnt much.

It’s a good job they were not in charge of the Ryder Cup when it came and showed off Wales so spectacularly because, if they had been, you’d fear it would have been well and truly bunkered!

And, please, please, don’t allow RRW anywhere near next September’s Nato summit at the Celtic Manor, which is likely to be the first official visit to Wales by a sitting American president with Barack Obama due to attend along with other heads of state.

The US contingent alone is expected to be 1,500 strong, and there’s likely to be 1,500 journalists and 15,000 campaigners or protestors descending on Newport.

Imagine RRW in charge of that lot?

It’s no wonder Celtic Manor owner Sir Terry Matthews, reputedly Wales’ first billionaire, has wanted little to do with rugby in the country.

He might have spent £150m on the complex and attracting the Ryder Cup but he’s turned down numerous overtures to pump money into the Dragons and professional union in Wales because he can’t see any potential returns.

You can be assured, if the man who is probably Wales’ top businessman was in charge of RRW, Halfpenny and Alun Wyn – rugby’s equivalent of golf stars Rory McIlroy and Graeme McDowell, who are incidentially both massive Ulster fans – would have faced the press yesterday.

Whichever side of the fence you sit on, you just wish the regions had more of his acumen and drive to be the best.

For, unless they get their act together quickly, it would seem they have little hope of making the cut."

Was just browsing Uafc looking for transfer rumours and I came across this article. I thought it was fairly accurate and outlines my misgivings about the regions currently. I should add it doesn't go into the failures ofthe WRU (of which there are many I'm sure) so I'm not saying this is my whole position before any welsh fans jump down my throat. I have no idea about the writer yet truth be told aswell.

by geoff999rugby Thu 19 Dec 2013, 8:58 am

This is pretty damning

'Connacht had a crowd of 7,661 for last weekend’s Heineken Cup clash with Toulouse, a figure higher than any of the Welsh regions posted during their last home appearances in Europe.

Dragons had just 4,023 for their meeting with Bordeaux-Begles, Blues 6,144 against Glasgow, Ospreys 6,385 against Castres and Scarlets claimed 7,591 against last season’s Heineken finalists Clermont Auvergne.

Blues, Scarlets and Dragons had something riding on those fixtures, being in quarter-final contention at the time, so they can’t hide from the fact those turn-outs were nothing other than pathetic.'

by Standulstermen Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:01 am

Didnt realise it would post like that although probably good for the thread. Does anyone know how I go about changing that or are folks happy to leave it as is

Link to the article
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andy-howell-disorganised-welsh-regions-6428863

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:20 am

Key parts that seem worth repeating:

"It was the same when it issued a press release late on Sunday night demanding a public inquiry into funding, which inadvertently highlighted how fortunate Welsh rugby is to have a television deal which is due to net it some £3.2m a year while Irish TV only pays an estimated £910,000 and Scottish £140,000."

"Last year’s Price Waterhouse Cooper report into the management and financial situation of the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets was hugely critical and, judging by their latest efforts at promotion, it doesn’t seem like they’ve learnt much."

"Whichever side of the fence you sit on, you just wish the regions had more of his acumen and drive to be the best. For, unless they get their act together quickly, it would seem they have little hope of making the cut."

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:20 am

Standulstermen wrote:Didnt realise it would post like that although probably good for the thread. Does anyone know how I go about changing that or are folks happy to leave it as is

Link to the article
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andy-howell-disorganised-welsh-regions-6428863

Article by Andy Howell of the Fail.
I'll need to be restrained before I even attempt to read that. I remember all too well the biased guff he wrote about CCS.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:31 am

geoff999rugby wrote:This is pretty damning

'Connacht had a crowd of 7,661 for last weekend’s Heineken Cup clash with Toulouse, a figure higher than any of the Welsh regions posted during their last home appearances in Europe.

Dragons had just 4,023 for their meeting with Bordeaux-Begles, Blues 6,144 against Glasgow, Ospreys 6,385 against Castres and Scarlets claimed 7,591 against last season’s Heineken finalists Clermont Auvergne.

Blues, Scarlets and Dragons had something riding on those fixtures, being in quarter-final contention at the time, so they can’t hide from the fact those turn-outs were nothing other than pathetic.'

Pathetic indeed which is why the PA needs revising, but the WRU refuse to and this has been the case for a long time.

"Then there’s the Participation Agreement.

When the PA was signed between the WRU and the 4 regions five years ago, it seemed a fair way to compensate teams for losing their best players during the Celtic League season. The regions were starting to pay big bucks to keep their new Welsh stars, following their international success, and the WRU were helping to support them. Like the formation of the regions, it was messy and poorly done, but it felt as though all parties were doing so for the right reasons.

Yet since then, all the regions have done is compromise. The Union have insisted on longer preparation time with the players ahead of Wales matches, extra rest time following international competitions, less risk when players are carrying injuries and even scheduling players’ operations and surgeries around their fixture list. They have wrestled control of the players away from their actual employers, citing ‘the greater good’ as their reason for doing so."
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s170/st184435.htm

by Standulstermen Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:40 am

Don't disagree with you Dave and doesn't Gatland get more time with his welsh based players than the other nations get in terms of release? I do agree that the WRU should be giving more but then are the regions marketing themselves right in order to attract support?

Ulster has been through this process in the last ten years after an overhaul because we were being run so poorly.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 10:02 am

Standulstermen wrote:Don't disagree with you Dave and doesn't Gatland get more time with his welsh based players than the other nations get in terms of release? I do agree that the WRU should be giving more but then are the regions marketing themselves right in order to attract support?

Yes and other things too. See my previous post and the link.
As for "marketing themselves right"; Cardiff Blues are much better at it than they used to be is all I will say to that at present.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 10:11 am

Standulstermen wrote:Don't disagree with you Dave and doesn't Gatland get more time with his welsh based players than the other nations get in terms of release? I do agree that the WRU should be giving more but then are the regions marketing themselves right in order to attract support?

Ulster has been through this process in the last ten years after an overhaul because we were being run so poorly.

I should add that since the now infamous PWC report, criticising both sides btw, Cardiff have a new chief exec, the previous head of marketing left (thank the lord!) and they are not pi$$ing away £££££££££s at CCS.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 10:48 am

Casartelli wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
quinsforever wrote:pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

Good spot.

So, give them VIP parking and a Diamond Club hospitality box at the Millenn' for them and their business chums.

It's all they ever wanted out of this rugby lark.

Peter Thomas (Merthyrman and ex Cardiff player) for all his faults put in a ton of cash to assemble the squad that won the EDF and drew with Leicester in the HEC semi. I bet he'd do the same if the PA was renegotiated. Some of his chums would chip in too no doubt.

by Standulstermen Thu 19 Dec 2013, 10:57 am

Fair enough dave. The move back to CAP was very wise. That said Cardiff should be selling out that Glasgow home game in the Heineken after you had beaten Toulon.

You beat the tournament favourites!!! The team seem to have got a bit of bite back. I do hope the PA can be renegotiated and the regions get a better deal. But only if the right people are there not to p1ss the money away as you mentioned with Cardiff changing their chief executive

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 12:19 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Fair enough dave. The move back to CAP was very wise. That said Cardiff should be selling out that Glasgow home game in the Heineken after you had beaten Toulon.

You beat the tournament favourites!!! The team seem to have got a bit of bite back. I do hope the PA can be renegotiated and the regions get a better deal. But only if the right people are there not to p1ss the money away as you mentioned with Cardiff changing their chief executive

Attendances have never been that great for yonks. In fact dressing up a club as a region has failed in that respect.
The financial director fecked off as well I seem to remember. Shame about the CAP "property legacy" that never happened.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 12:23 pm

The shambles spreads yet further;

"Welsh regions contact MPs over dispute with Welsh Rugby Union.

Wales's four regions are writing to local MPs and Welsh assembly members to get political backing as their dispute with the Welsh Rugby Union heads to the courts."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/18/welsh-regions-mps-dispute-wru

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 19 Dec 2013, 12:37 pm

quinsforever wrote:pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

[/quote]

Is Gatland a shareholder in Ospreys? It would explain a lot

by Guest Thu 19 Dec 2013, 12:51 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
quinsforever wrote:pulled this interesting comment from Gatland off a Times article:

“Central contracts is something that has been discussed. If we did, the question is could you afford to run four regional teams? Long-term central contracts are something the union would definitely look at. But we also need to recognise that in the regions there were people involved who at the start of professional rugby put a lot of money in and probably saved the WRU from going bankrupt.”

Is Gatland a shareholder in Ospreys? It would explain a lot [/quote]

Eh?! Why Ospreys?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:10 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
Andy Howell wrote:Andy Howell: Why disorganised Welsh regions are getting it so wrong in fight for survival
19 Dec 2013 06:00

Rugby correspondent Andy Howell gives his verdict on the four regions' joint PR attempts to promote the Welsh derbies

"You call a press conference to promote the Dominos Christmas derbies between the Welsh region and there’s not a pizza or a Wales star in sight.

You’d expect to find big hitters like Leigh Halfpenny, Alun Wyn Jones, Toby Faletau and Scott Williams to be in attendance, particularly as this was a Regional Rugby Wales promotion.

That’s the umbrella organisation which represents the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets and is at loggerheads with the WRU over the future of the professional game in Wales.

Yet only two head coaches – Scarlets’ Simon Easterby and Blues’ Phil Davies – were in attendance.

The rest of the cast and, no disrespect to its members because they’re good blokes, was made up of what the Hollywood film industry call B-listers.

Dragons, despite the event taking place on its patch at Newport’s Celtic Manor Resort, and the Ospreys sent their backs gurus, Darren Edwards and Gruff Rees. There was no Lyn Jones or Steve Tandy.

The list of players was topped by Wales international Ryan Bevington. Jonathan Spratt, Rhodri Williams, Gareth Maule, Hallam Amos, Cory Hill were also there while Sam Hobbs was the sole Blues player on duty. Hardly household names!

So how can you take an organisation which wants, in essence, to control professional rugby in Wales, seriously when it sometimes hasn’t got much of a clue when it comes to promoting, selling and financing the sport?

The chief executives of the regions should have been there, along with the directors of rugby and their star players.

Summing up RRW was a board with the eye-catching slogan ‘Protect Our Game’ propped up against a wall in the clubhouse of golf’s 2010 Ryder Cup.

Why wasn’t it hoisted behind Easterby, Davies, Rees and Edwards as they sat on top table in what was the American team room three years ago and which had the names Woods, Mickelson, Fowler, Furyk, Johnson, Stricker, Watson, Kuchar, Cink, Overton, Pavin and Mahan emblazoned high on the walls?

Phil Davies and Simon Thomas were the only two head coaches in attendance

Now that would have been a strong message of solidarity.

It wasn’t, perhaps because of the haste with which the press conference and the venue was arranged. It was announced less than 18 hours before being staged, despite the fixture list having been published months ago.

It was the same when it issued a press release late on Sunday night demanding a public inquiry into funding, which inadvertently highlighted how fortunate Welsh rugby is to have a television deal which is due to net it some £3.2m a year while Irish TV only pays an estimated £910,000 and Scottish £140,000.

You have to wonder why BBC Wales and S4C have been so generous with licence-payers’ money when there’s been such little competition for the contract?

Perhaps it’s a case of the Irish and Scots paying its true worth?

And we are talking about Irish teams, who make the Welsh regions look almost inept when it comes to attracting spectators, whether it’s in Europe or the RaboDirect Pro12.

Little Connacht had a crowd of 7,661 for last weekend’s Heineken Cup clash with Toulouse, a figure higher than any of the Welsh regions posted during their last home appearances in Europe.

Dragons had just 4,023 for their meeting with Bordeaux-Begles, Blues 6,144 against Glasgow, Ospreys 6,385 against Castres and Scarlets claimed 7,591 against last season’s Heineken finalists Clermont Auvergne.

Blues, Scarlets and Dragons had something riding on those fixtures, being in quarter-final contention at the time, so they can’t hide from the fact those turn-outs were nothing other than pathetic.

Yet the Irish provinces, who have lifted the Heineken Cup five times in the last eight seasons but who RRW wants to ditch in favour of some form of tie-up with England’s top clubs, didn’t have any trouble in managing to attract bumper home crowds, despite money still being tight over there.

Ulster pulled in 12,977 against Italian out-fit Treviso, Munster had 23,615 against James Hook and Luke Charteris’ Perpignan, and Leinster a whopping 47,370 against George North’s Northampton Saints.

England’s top attendance was the 21,404 posted by Leicester Tigers against Montpellier. Northampton had attracted 13,475 at home to Leinster, Harlequins 11,502 against Jamie Roberts, Mike Phillips and Dan Lydiate’s Racing Metro, Gloucester 10.973 against Perpignan, Exeter 10,744 against Toulon and big-spenders Saracens 7,395 against Zebre.

When you weigh up everything, you do wonder whether the regions have a future and even whether they deserve one.

Last year’s Price Waterhouse Cooper report into the management and financial situation of the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets was hugely critical and, judging by their latest efforts at promotion, it doesn’t seem like they’ve learnt much.

It’s a good job they were not in charge of the Ryder Cup when it came and showed off Wales so spectacularly because, if they had been, you’d fear it would have been well and truly bunkered!

And, please, please, don’t allow RRW anywhere near next September’s Nato summit at the Celtic Manor, which is likely to be the first official visit to Wales by a sitting American president with Barack Obama due to attend along with other heads of state.

The US contingent alone is expected to be 1,500 strong, and there’s likely to be 1,500 journalists and 15,000 campaigners or protestors descending on Newport.

Imagine RRW in charge of that lot?

It’s no wonder Celtic Manor owner Sir Terry Matthews, reputedly Wales’ first billionaire, has wanted little to do with rugby in the country.

He might have spent £150m on the complex and attracting the Ryder Cup but he’s turned down numerous overtures to pump money into the Dragons and professional union in Wales because he can’t see any potential returns.

You can be assured, if the man who is probably Wales’ top businessman was in charge of RRW, Halfpenny and Alun Wyn – rugby’s equivalent of golf stars Rory McIlroy and Graeme McDowell, who are incidentially both massive Ulster fans – would have faced the press yesterday.

Whichever side of the fence you sit on, you just wish the regions had more of his acumen and drive to be the best.

For, unless they get their act together quickly, it would seem they have little hope of making the cut."
Was just browsing Uafc looking for transfer rumours and I came across this article. I thought it was fairly accurate and outlines my misgivings about the regions currently. I should add it doesn't go into the failures ofthe WRU (of which there are many I'm sure) so I'm not saying this is my whole position before any welsh fans jump down my throat. I have no idea about the writer yet truth be told aswell.

Jaysus Stand. Leave it out with the font tags. I couldn't read it until I removed them. Was smaller than the writing on a ram chip.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:13 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Didnt realise it would post like that although probably good for the thread. Does anyone know how I go about changing that or are folks happy to leave it as is

Link to the article
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andy-howell-disorganised-welsh-regions-6428863

As I said remove the font and colour tags. Sure I already did it for you and cleaned up the quoting also. No charge Smile

by Standulstermen Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:25 pm

And in return mark Anscombe has given you a game to watch on he 28th! Hug

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:41 pm

Standulstermen wrote:And in return mark Anscombe has given you a game to watch on he 28th!

Cheers Mark. Don't forget to rest all your big players for the Munster game 6 days later. Wink

by Guest Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:58 pm

Hey, there'll be no fun and lighthearted banter on this thread, thank you. This is a place for discussing death (of pro rugby in Wales), misery, poverty, doom and gloom ONLY.

Keep your Irish joy to yourselves!

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 19 Dec 2013, 2:10 pm

Griff wrote:Hey, there'll be no fun and lighthearted banter on this thread, thank you. This is a place for discussing death (of pro rugby in Wales), misery, poverty, doom and gloom ONLY.

Keep your Irish joy to yourselves!

Sorry mate. I really do wish I could wave a magic wand at Welsh rugby (Below intl level) I reckon it's the only hope right now.

Really hope they can sort it out for all our sakes.

by **profitius** Thu 19 Dec 2013, 2:49 pm

The way I see it it goes something like this. Its my opinion only and I'm not reporting anything as fact, just the way I see things.

- Back in the early days of professionalism, as the HEC began and the standards of rugby started to increase, the WRU decided that the Welsh clubs were too small to compete with the biggest clubs in Europe.

- The WRU then decided to set up regions. This was extremely controversial and the clubs were very much opposed to it.

- Eventually 5 regions were formed split along club lines. It wasn't split along geographical lines like proper regions should be. The new regions were not really regions but clubs who joined forces. The clubs had too much of a say in forming the regions.

- The WRU brought in outside millionaires to fund these regions because funds were low as they had to pay back the stadium loan. Agreements were in place for the WRU and the regions (RRW) to work together which included things like academies etc.

- The Celtic Warriors (who were a good team) went bust so that left 4 regions and thats how it remains to this day.

- The regions had big plans and took out loans to move into big stadiums, sign top quality internationals etc. They misread public opinion... badly! The crowds never came in the numbers the regions hoped for.

- A few years ago the WRU decided that the regional concept had failed. They made a long term plan to take back the running of Welsh rugby out of the hands of millionaires. So they decided to limit the funding to the regions and keep the money for themselves.

- The regions objected and struck back by introducing a wage cap. This has caused many of the top players to go to France and the lack of signing anymore top class internationals from down under.

- Now things are at boiling point. The RRW are threatening to go to the English league and the WRU are doing little to stop them. In fact the WRU is hoping they'll go so the WRU can start again from scratch and bring in proper regions into Wales, basically go the same route as the IRFU.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

by Standulstermen Thu 19 Dec 2013, 3:21 pm

The WRU have said they will go to court if the RRW the to join the AP have they not?

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 3:25 pm

profitius wrote:The way I see it it goes something like this. Its my opinion only and I'm not reporting anything as fact, just the way I see things.

- Back in the early days of professionalism, as the HEC began and the standards of rugby started to increase, the WRU decided that the Welsh clubs were too small to compete with the biggest clubs in Europe.

- The WRU then decided to set up regions. This was extremely controversial and the clubs were very much opposed to it.

- Eventually 5 regions were formed split along club lines. It wasn't split along geographical lines like proper regions should be. The new regions were not really regions but clubs who joined forces. The clubs had too much of a say in forming the regions.

- The WRU brought in outside millionaires to fund these regions because funds were low as they had to pay back the stadium loan. Agreements were in place for the WRU and the regions (RRW) to work together which included things like academies etc.

- The Celtic Warriors (who were a good team) went bust so that left 4 regions and thats how it remains to this day.

- The regions had big plans and took out loans to move into big stadiums, sign top quality internationals etc. They misread public opinion... badly! The crowds never came in the numbers the regions hoped for.

- A few years ago the WRU decided that the regional concept had failed. They made a long term plan to take back the running of Welsh rugby out of the hands of millionaires. So they decided to limit the funding to the regions and keep the money for themselves.

- The regions objected and struck back by introducing a wage cap. This has caused many of the top players to go to France and the lack of signing anymore top class internationals from down under.

- Now things are at boiling point. The RRW are threatening to go to the English league and the WRU are doing little to stop them. In fact the WRU is hoping they'll go so the WRU can start again from scratch and bring in proper regions into Wales, basically go the same route as the IRFU.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

2 out of 10; 1 mark coz you've had a bash and another coz i'm feeling generous today.
See me after school.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 3:32 pm

Standulstermen wrote:The WRU have said they will go to court if the RRW the to join the AP have they not?

"Regions hit WRU with court action

Welsh rugby has again been thrown in to turmoil with the latest in a long line of battles between the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) and Regional Rugby Wales (RRW)"
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/story/99649.html#qULQopT3hpR7sYVk.99

by doctor_grey Thu 19 Dec 2013, 3:38 pm

Standulstermen wrote:The WRU have said they will go to court if the RRW the to join the AP have they not?

I still don't get why the Premiership would want the Welsh Regions on any kind of long term basis. Just look at all the drama the regions and the WRU are involved in now. If the Regions went eastward the drama levels would multiply, probably exponentially. The Premiership has enough problems on their own.

I do get the notion of joining forces. English and Welsh clubs/teams polaying regularly again would be terrific. However, it seems to me the best way forward would be a proper B&I league structure. Unfortunatly that would likely undermine any other European Rugby so is a likely non-starter.

by Guest Thu 19 Dec 2013, 4:02 pm

Hard to know the real stuff Profitus, but a lot of what you write could be true.

The only bit I'd disagree with is where you say the WRU brought in millionaires. Mostly, the millionaires where already involved with the clubs that were forced to merge e.g. Tony Brown with Newport, Russell with Ebbw Vale (who decided he was being shafted and so pulled out his half), Peter Thomas with Cardiff, etc. So the WRU already had millionaires involved in the game at club level and basically told them to form new teams out of the existing ones - "we're forcing your club side to become semi pro so if you don't form a new 'regional' side then you're no longer involved in pro rugby". That's a hell of a lot of power that the WRU hold. I can't see that happening anywhere else in business, where someone (WRU) can tell a business to set up something new AND force a business to downgrade (the clubs going from professional entities to semi pro) so easily.

The problem with your last bit about starting new regions from scratch is that we don't really have regions in Wales. We've got 22 'principle areas' used for local government currently, 8 preserved counties (the old counties before dividing into the current 22 areas), or 14 historic counties (the ancient counties - all 'Shires' where I think hobbits lived). None of these lends itself well to 4 or so teams. You'd have to 'merge' counties and then you'd be in the same mess as now.

The only thing I can think of is the old East and West Wales rugby representative sides that used to play each other. Then we have 'The North' who are lumped together to describe everything else in welsh rugby that isn't to do with the traditional m4 corridor clubs. But would people feel they 'belong' to those 'regions'? Possibly, but quite possibly not. Ironically, the North region may be the one that does the best in terms of support. They're gagging for pro rugby up there so I can see that one taking off. Also ironically, the only current region that actually has a region in the name (Gwent - one of the 8 preserved counties I mentioned) has probably been the least supported and poorest performing since inception. I think that Wales is very much like England in that it's sport has developed very much along village, town and city lines. Invented areas or regions or boundary lines means little to a sports fan in Wales.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 4:56 pm

MP says Wales club system is in 'crisis'
ESPN Staff
December 19, 2013

Pontypridd MP and shadow secretary of state for Wales Owen Smith has claimed the club game in the country is in "crisis" and is "failing".

The Pontypridd MP has called for a "root and branch" review of the Welsh game, pleading with the Welsh Rugby Union and bosses at the four regions to put their political posturing aside. Regional Rugby Wales, the body that represents provincial sides Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys and the Newport-Gwent Dragons, is preparing to take the WRU to court.

The regions have written to Welsh MPs and the Welsh Assembly to garner support for their potential court battle with the WRU. Smith admits he is an advocate of change, but called on all parties to approach the issues in boardrooms not law courts.

Smith said: "Even though Wales has enjoyed great success at international level in recent years, the club game has been in permanent crisis since the creation of the regional clubs.

"Our game is failing because fans have never truly warmed to the regional concept and want a game based on traditional club identities and the centuries of fraternal rivalry that exists between them.

"In many parts of our rugby heartlands fans, players and the volunteers who are the backbones of our rugby clubs feel totally alienated from the elite, professional game."

Criticising both clubs and union for muscle-flexing in the latest round of talks aimed at amending existing league structures, Smith called for an end to the "phoney confections" of the regions, and the restoration of traditional clubs tied to singular towns and cities.

Smith added: "This latest crisis is nothing more than a power struggle between the clubs and the union for control of the game's principal assets, money and the players that generate it.

"Whoever wins that battle, the wider game will be the loser in the long term.

"What we need is root and branch reform, a return to a structure built on our traditional clubs, whose identities will never be eroded by the phoney confections of the Dragons, Blues and Ospreys, and an end to the closed shop which says only those four clubs can ever aspire to play at the top level of the game."

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/story/209387.html#gCYPv2R7WmMsdqJP.99

by rosbif Thu 19 Dec 2013, 5:48 pm

As an observer from the outside
" I think that Wales is very much like England in that it's sport has developed very much along village, town and city lines. Invented areas or regions or boundary lines means little to a sports fan in Wales."
This is probably the biggest truism of the debate the best thing the managers of the regions could do is visit Sandy Park and take note of how to run a rugby club.A new ground with plans for expansion + business/conference centre,3 academies taking the best talent from Cornwall and Devon ( providing 5 for the England U20 team which won the competition this year,Ex players scoring all the points.Owned by the fans no sugar daddy and making a profit every year in the Jeff.
Exeter is a club which represents a region ( Cornwall and Devon ) but marketing as that region would never work due to traditionally rivalry but is seen as an elite club supporting the Pirates and Plymouth Albion in the championship by loaning players on the peripheral of the team or needing more experience.
In my opinion regionalism would never work here in France or England due to tribalism following your club and probably the same in Wales. Phil Vickery remarked once that playing mid week in Wales having his head kicked in the rain was an important part of his rugby education Vive le Anglo-Welsh league.

by Casartelli Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:08 pm

rosbif wrote:As an observer from the outside
" I think that Wales is very much like England in that it's sport has developed very much along village, town and city lines. Invented areas or regions or boundary lines means little to a sports fan in Wales."
This is probably the biggest truism of the debate the best thing the managers of the regions could do is visit Sandy Park and take note of how to run a rugby club.A new ground with plans for expansion + business/conference centre,3 academies taking the best talent from Cornwall and Devon ( providing 5 for the England U20 team which won the competition this year,Ex players scoring all the points.Owned by the fans no sugar daddy and making a profit every year in the Jeff.
Exeter is a club which represents a region ( Cornwall and Devon ) but marketing as that region would never work due to traditionally rivalry but is seen as an elite club supporting the Pirates and Plymouth Albion in the championship by loaning players on the peripheral of the team or needing more experience.
In my opinion regionalism would never work here in France or England due to tribalism following your club and probably the same in Wales. Phil Vickery remarked once that playing mid week in Wales having his head kicked in the rain was an important part of his rugby education Vive le Anglo-Welsh league.

Old-school top bloke and top player (before he did a Slimfast).

Will be sorely missed when he finally hangs up his boots.

by Guest Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:14 pm

The best thing about Exeter that I've heard is they're encouraged to have a drink every weekend apparently. Great set up.

by whocares Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:32 pm

So in a nutshell what is likely going to happen now? Also why would the regions think that moving from the rabo to the jeff would bring them more money ? Sorry if that has been covered 2 pages ago but there is so much to read and sometimes the convo goes sideways.
Tks in advance. Yours,

by HammerofThunor Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:42 pm

Idea is that the regions generate more TV money (and therefore potentially more sponsorship money). Therefore if they joined another group that also generates a lot of TV/sponsorship they'll get more.

Also, the grass is always greener....

by Guest Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:49 pm

Whocares, I don't think anyone knows what will happen next. Part of the problem is that under the recent participation agreement between the regions and the WRU, there is a gagging order attached that means the regions will get a big fine if they criticise the WRU or go public about the inner workings and dealings (the existence this gagging order has only just been made public). I expect more details of the troubles between the 2 will surface when the participation agreement runs out at the end of the month.

I don't know either about the money they expect. However, currently the regions get money from domestic tv rights (which can't be much compared to sky/BT), Heineken cup money and player release money (money from the WRU for extra player release outside of normal international windows). I guess the regions think that if their league matches were broadcast on sky or bt then that would be worth more than they get from being on BBC/S4C currently.

by HammerofThunor Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:51 pm

The PA runs out at the end of the season. It just needs to be renewed this year.

by whocares Thu 19 Dec 2013, 6:59 pm

Thanks Griff

by Cardiff Dave Thu 19 Dec 2013, 7:24 pm

Griff wrote:Whocares, I don't think anyone knows what will happen next.

Yep and I guess we'll have to wait a while as Dodger has other, more important things on his mind at present it seems. Anyone hear him on the news this evening? He's a walking, talking mission statement.....

"Mr Lewis said: “This is an historic opportunity for a partnership between the private, public and education sectors to drive forward prosperity, well-being and growth for South East Wales and, indeed, the whole of Wales. The breadth and variety of the board members is considerable. I am excited by this opportunity for us all to come together to realise the economic potential of this region.

"There is much to be done and I am grateful to the board members for coming together so soon after they were appointed to start that work. Today’s meeting will be an opportunity to set out a clear framework and direction for our work, focused on delivering transformational economic benefits for the region through a unity of purpose and an alignment of strategies.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/first-meeting-south-east-wales-6430557

by Guest Thu 19 Dec 2013, 7:29 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The PA runs out at the end of the season. It just needs to be renewed this year.

Ah ok, cheers Hammer. Thought it was all up in Dec.

For what it's worth I don't think we will or should join the Jeff. Not that I wouldn't want to face English teams - it would be fantastic. And not just because they're English. Just that it's a good league and the should be more travelling fans and better atmosphere than we get now. We won't join because I can't see how we can get over the relegation issue. Clubs and regions don't mix at all for that reason - one is predicated on a league structure that promotes success and dispenses with underachievement, and the other on stability which allows experimentation, rest (yeah, I know they rest them in the Jeff too) and perhaps a bit more player management. They can't have a 2 model structure with one rule for the welsh and one for the English, so I don't think it will happen. Also, I can't see what the English get from it. Great for the Welsh in terms of entering a better paid competition (I.e. Sky/bt money compared to domestic tv money) plus more travelling fans, but I'd expect the English to then lose out a bit of funding as the tv deal will be sliced more thinly. Just can't see it being agreed on the English side, no matter how attractive it is for welsh regions.

by HammerofThunor Thu 19 Dec 2013, 7:52 pm

As I've said before, the only way I can see this happening is 'properly'. So the WRU are on board and give two years notice for the PRO12. A two tier professional structure is created for England and Wales. Each tier has 12 teams who are given their place based on license. 20 English teams, 4 Welsh teams. Promotion/relegation between the two tiers but cannot go further down unless they lost their license. Licenses reviewed every 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/etc whatever years (WRU control Welsh license and RFU control English licenses).

It's been suggested that the RFU wanted a two tier professional English system (which was the reason for the crazy 8 team playoff in the championship). Once you introduce a ring fence somewhere, the Regions can be added. In isolation I think it 'could' happen. But in the real world? Probably not. Another option would be a 3 tier British and Irish professional structure.

But I can't see a 16 team league being approved by the RFU.

by **Notch** Thu 19 Dec 2013, 7:57 pm

The English get another bargaining chip in the ongoing European rugby feud Griff. If I was the RRW I'd be worried about what they get if they get what they want and don't need the threat of an Anglo-Welsh league anymore.

by Feckless Rogue Thu 19 Dec 2013, 7:58 pm

Obviously I'd like the Welsh to stay in the Rabo. They produce more talent than Scotland and Italy combined and I want Irish players to play against the best players from Wales. But they need to do what's right for them in the long run. If that's moving to England (I'd see lots of problems as well as advantages) then so be it.

What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

by Feckless Rogue Thu 19 Dec 2013, 8:00 pm

Just saw Hammers post mentioning two years notice to the league they're currently in, which would at least be some courtesy.

by HammerofThunor Thu 19 Dec 2013, 8:05 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Just saw Hammers post mentioning two years notice to the league they're currently in, which would at least be some courtesy.

As I said it's almost certainly not going to happen at all. But if it did it would be in 2016 at the earliest. Also I think if serious decisions started between the WRU and RFU, I think it would begin to involve the other unions (but would 'hopefully' require relegation between the 3 tiers, which may be a show stopper). Lots of I thinks there

by **Notch** Thu 19 Dec 2013, 8:23 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

Are you surprised? They've bet the house on getting their tournament on BT. At first it was you face financial oblivion because the French and us will go off and you'll be out in the cold. Now its we'll have an Anglo-Welsh league and the Pro12 will be seriously damaged... unless we do it our way in terms of the European competitions. More bullying and threats.

The Welsh regions would be well advised to recognise this grand plan is just another PRL bluff/bargaining tactic. If the RFU and the WRU don't want it to happen, it won't happen.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:16 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

What I don't like is that the 5 Nations are throwing this ERC idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in England. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in England.

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