What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Griff wrote:Also Geoff, the irony in your post is that the Ospreys have had a huge falling out with Neath a few years back to the point where there is/was pretty much no relationship between the two at all. Hardly the rosy region that you talk of. Neath at one point said they'd refuse to let any players join the ospreys, which is maybe why they went from top of the table, winning every year to falling down the pecking order a bit (I.e. players were a bit reluctant to join them in case their pathway was blocked).

I think their relationship with Aberavon and Bridgend is pretty good though. Not too sure.

Griff, the Os and Neath relationship was settled about a year ago with Hawkes or his appointee joining the Os board and Cuddy leaving, the scenario you paint of entry into the Dragons setup is a mirror of the Os system and that is why our 4 clubs are at the bottom of the WP, there are players now placed at all 4 clubs within Ospreylia.

Thanks Wayne. That's why I said 'is/was', as I didn't know if it had yet been settled.

My point still stands though; while fans may not be falling over themselves to follow regional rugby, the feeder club system works relatively well. Only the Blues really are struggling with it, and that's because 50% of their feeder clubs are at war with them!

Griff wrote:Thanks Wayne. That's why I said 'is/was', as I didn't know if it had yet been settled.

My point still stands though; while fans may not be falling over themselves to follow regional rugby, the feeder club system works relatively well. Only the Blues really are struggling with it, and that's because 50% of there feeder clubs is at war with them!

Why are they at war with them exactly?

50% = Pontypridd. Why at are they at war? Don't like each other.

geoff999rugby wrote:But do the regions take the feeder clubs seriously?
As an outside it just looks like Llanelli and Cardiff to me with the feeder clubs little more than an annoyance.
Newport aren't much better and only Osprey come, remotely, close and even then its not great

Who feeds who?
Ponty get an allocation of bloos players free of charge by the way.
Also the term "feeder club" is a total nonsense.

Griff wrote:Thanks Wayne. That's why I said 'is/was', as I didn't know if it had yet been settled.

My point still stands though; while fans may not be falling over themselves to follow regional rugby, the feeder club system works relatively well. Only the Blues really are struggling with it, and that's because 50% of their feeder clubs are at war with them!

Can you elaborate re the "50%" who you say are at war?

geoff999rugby wrote:Lets take Cardiff

What colours do they wear
What ground do they play at
What do supports chant

No sense of sharing the team as a region with any other Welsh clubs

Llanelli are even worse

Llanelli and Cardiff stood alone 10 years ago. They didn't merge with anybody when regionalism was forced upon us fans and that is still the case. The big problem down Cardiff way began with the destruction of the Celtic Warriors and Ponty were told by the WRU they were now in the Cardiff Blues region, like it or not.
As for colours; black was dropped from the kit to appear to be more regional. This didn't do any good as it annoyed existing Cardiff supporters and it still does hugely.

Intotouch wrote:

Griff wrote:Thanks Wayne. That's why I said 'is/was', as I didn't know if it had yet been settled.

My point still stands though; while fans may not be falling over themselves to follow regional rugby, the feeder club system works relatively well. Only the Blues really are struggling with it, and that's because 50% of there feeder clubs is at war with them!

Why are they at war with them exactly?

2 seperate clubs basically. Very much rivals and as the Ponty website says;

"It’s about local pride and ancient rivalry. It’s about banter and bragging rights. It’s about history and tradition. It’s about us versus them. That’s not a recipe you can cook overnight, or even over a decade. And that’s why, in essence, Regional Rugby is a failure. You know it. I know it. Even the WRU knows it."

Also let us not forget that prior to regionalism, Ponty competed in Europe and who can forget the battle of Brive. All that ended for them in 2003. They were skint then however just like the WRU as it happens.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Thanks Wayne. That's why I said 'is/was', as I didn't know if it had yet been settled.

My point still stands though; while fans may not be falling over themselves to follow regional rugby, the feeder club system works relatively well. Only the Blues really are struggling with it, and that's because 50% of their feeder clubs are at war with them!

Can you elaborate re the "50%" who you say are at war?

Pontypridd.

Cardiff RFC seem to have a good relationship with the Blues.

That's your 2 feeder clubs isn't it? Or am I missing something?   

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Thanks Wayne. That's why I said 'is/was', as I didn't know if it had yet been settled.

My point still stands though; while fans may not be falling over themselves to follow regional rugby, the feeder club system works relatively well. Only the Blues really are struggling with it, and that's because 50% of their feeder clubs are at war with them!

Can you elaborate re the "50%" who you say are at war?

Pontypridd.

Cardiff RFC seem to have a good relationship with the Blues.

That's your 2 feeder clubs isn't it? Or am I missing something?   

Cardiff are Cardiff so they are the same thing and "feeder clubs" are clubs which are not Cardiff and there are many according to the list. Ponty are apparently one of those mythical "feeder clubs".
The phrase means little anyway, but don't blame me.

But the phrase is the phrase. The official one that is used. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we shouldn't use it.

The Blues have 2 premiership feeder clubs - no matter how you want to view them. Cardiff RFC have a different squad, a different status, different coaching team, and as such players moving between the two makes the relationship a 'feeder' one.

Look, I know you don't like it, I know you want club rugby and a return to proper Cardiff RFC, and I don't blame you, but being deliberately awkward, especially when those from outside Wales are interested in the debate, helps no one.

Griff wrote:But the phrase is the phrase. The official one that is used. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we shouldn't use it.

The Blues have 2 premiership feeder clubs - no matter how you want to view them. Cardiff RFC have a different squad, a different status, different coaching team, and as such players moving between the two makes the relationship a 'feeder' one.

Look, I know you don't like it, I know you want club rugby and a return to proper Cardiff RFC, and I don't blame you, but being deliberately awkward, especially when those from outside Wales are interested in the debate, helps no one.

I'm not being awkward. I'm only telling the truth and if you believe that Cardiff RFC are a feeder club to Cardiff Blues then you are barking. They are the same thing. Cardiff stood alone in 2003, so how can they be a feeder club to themselves ffs.

Then how come the Cardiff RFC website is different to the blues one?

How come the squads are mostly different? The only players in both are development/affiliated ones. This is the same at ALL regions, where the academy and development players turn out for the prem club. But where are the blues stars such as Halfpenny in that Cardiff RFC squad? And why are some of the blues squad listed in the Pontypridd squad but not in the Cardiff RFC squad?

http://www.cardiffblues.com/rugby/first_team_squad.php
http://www.cardiffrfc.com/Teams/Squad
http://www.ponty.net/players

How come Cardiff RFC coaches on this page look so unfamiliar? I don't see them on the side lines at the regional games, talking to media, barking orders in the half time team talk? In fact I've never heard of Martyn Fowler the head coach. I thought Phil Davies was the top man?

http://www.cardiffrfc.com/Teams/Management
http://www.cardiffblues.com/rugby/management.php

Why does the Cardiff RFC website not laud their recent Lions such as Sam Warburton, Leigh Halfpenny and Alex Cuthbert? In fact, their Lions listing stops at 2001. The Blues lists their lions post 2003 though.

http://www.cardiffrfc.com/Teams/Lions

Feeder club just means that there's a development pathway between the two. I.e. Players can come through into the regional squad from elsewhere in the region. Players coming through the academy or picked up in the region can be on the books of the region and then given game time elsewhere in the region, and then called up by the region when they want without the need to buy them or sign a contract. This happens at the Ponty and Cardiff RFC as you well know.

So news on the grapevine does not look good for a new participation deal.  Even the Telegraph are reporting that a firm offer has come in jointly from BT and Aviva to sign with them reportedly being the same value (around 4 million) to join the Aviva.  It appears relegation will remain but the regions are to be given 3 guaranteed places in the premiership so if Ospreys got relegated for example in the first season and then another Welsh Region where in the drop zone the following season, the Ospreys would automatically get promoted regardless of National Division 1 status.

Here is my question, can a Welsh region really afford to spend more than one season in Division 1 without totally going bust?  Also are they certain they will get the support from the fans to watch them in the new league?

Interestingly it is reported that this Thursday is a meeting looking at central contracts and the creation of 3 geographical Teams.

I personally wont be supporting any move to the Aviva, and will walk away from the Dragons at that stage.  I just don't agree that Welsh Rugby is best served hitching its wagon to the Aviva.  It's everyone's personal choice but I wont side with private benefactors over the WRU on this one.  It's everyone's personal choice but I wont support a move to the Aviva and will take my cash elsewhere (probably to a new regional franchise).

You will not be alone I have found it very difficult to support the regions as they are.

I certainly will not be supporting any Welsh region that is intent on destroying the Rabbo

This is absolutely fascinating. So much is at stake for the Welsh game.
 
Can someone tell me who actually makes the decisions on behalf of Welsh rugby? Can they really claim that they have a mandate to throw in their lot with the Jeff Cool Kids? On whose interests are the decisions actually being made?

I'm amazed that on a lot of the fans forums for the regions there seems to be a massive chip on the shoulder regarding the WRU, almost to the point where they feel they are owed something. The other thing coming across from those forums seems to be an overriding view they don't owe anyone anything and should focus on themselves and their best interests only.

Sadly the last point highlights exactly how society has fallen and to a degree outlines why socially and economically we are doing so poorly in the UK. Its the same justification bankers, government officials, business owners and others always give to justify their own best interests. While the regional issue clearly isn't quite as dramatic it does outline how silly this line of thinking is. The WRU should make their decision free from bias and do what is in the best interest of the sport in Wales. They don't owe the regions anything. They gave you the tools to make it work. It was the regions who watched one Field of Dreams (regarding stadiums). They built them but no one came. I wouldn't argue the WRU has its failings but i'm just pointing out that the guys running the regions have made countless mistakes and this move to the Aviva could just be another one of those.

What bothers me the most is that they are all happy to severe the ties and roll the dice. Its just suicide.

The worst thing is that if the Aviva is expanded to have the Welsh regions then those extra games are permanent. How do they ever come back to a European Cup? I can understand how the Welsh regions think joining England can save them financially. But why are the PRL doing this? It seems like they're intent on not only destroying the European Cup but damaging the Rabo, because they couldn't get their way.

It'd be crazy if the Welsh ended up with 4 old regions in the English league and three new regions in the rabo. The whole point of regions is to concentrate the talent into a small number of financially viable teams. 7 is to many for Wales. It splits supporters, TV money, playing pool. It'd be ridiculous. The WRU should stick with the current regions no matter what league they're in.

If not, and they insist on making new regions, it strikes me that they have the option to declare that anyone playing for the old regions cannot play for Wales. Nobody with international ambitions would play for them and they'd essentially become English teams with a few Welsh journeymen.

This is all such a mess. I just can't believe it.

Griff wrote:Then how come the Cardiff RFC website is different to the blues one?

Because Cardiff has two faces basically; a regional one and a WP one, but it still has one chairman, one chief exec and published accounts are for Cardiff RFC which include all personnel from both teams. That's just the way it is and always has been.

Allty wrote:You will not be alone I have found it very difficult to support the regions as they are.

I certainly will not be supporting any Welsh region that is intent on destroying the Rabbo

So you'd prefer it if the regions signed the PA, which would be financially crippling for them to do so?

Feckless Rogue wrote:

This is all such a mess. I just can't believe it.

I can believe it as it's been a complete horlicks for donkey's years.

Welshmushroom wrote:II wouldn't argue the WRU has its failings but i'm just pointing out that the guys running the regions have made countless mistakes and this move to the Aviva could just be another one of those.  

What bothers me the most is that they are all happy to severe the ties and roll the dice.  Its just suicide.

Agreed and signing the PA in the first place was one of them.

It is worth mentionning that the 4 millions figure is what the regions currently get from the rabo, HEC and LV=cup so they wouldn't get extra money just for joining aviva.

Dragons being 50% backed by the wru, it is hard to believe they can survive without the wru.

[quote="Cardiff Dave"][quote="Allty"]You will not be alone I have found it very difficult to support the regions as they are.

I certainly will not be supporting any Welsh region that is intent on destroying the Rabbo

[/quote]

So you'd prefer it if the regions signed the PA, which would be financially crippling for them to do so?

[/quote]

I dont think I said that CD

There is only one way forwards and thats [b]negotiation not War[/b] the existing mess cant continue

Welshmushroom wrote:So news on the grapevine does not look good for a new participation deal.  Even the Telegraph are reporting that a firm offer has come in jointly from BT and Aviva to sign with them reportedly being the same value (around 4 million) to join the Aviva.  It appears relegation will remain but the regions are to be given 3 guaranteed places in the premiership so if Ospreys got relegated for example in the first season and then another Welsh Region where in the drop zone the following season, the Ospreys would automatically get promoted regardless of National Division 1 status.

As a supporter of a Championship club pushing for promotion to Aviva I will see this over my dead body. This is ringfencing by another name and would leave the RFU open to all kinds of legal challenges from English clubs who are passed over for promotion in favour of a Welsh club.

Allty wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Allty wrote:You will not be alone I have found it very difficult to support the regions as they are.

I certainly will not be supporting any Welsh region that is intent on destroying the Rabbo

So you'd prefer it if the regions signed the PA, which would be financially crippling for them to do so?

I dont think I said that CD

There is only one way forwards and thats negotiation not War the existing mess cant continue

Agreed, but both sides have been unable to negotiate for several years. The relationship has completely broken down.

It's funny how Chinese whispers works. The Telegraph reported that the Regions had been offered £4M each to compete in an Anglo-welsh competition (note it doesn't say league and it doesn't say "per season"). The BBC take that and it becomes £4M a season.

Since the best estimate is that the English clubs get just over £2M each a season for the premiership if the regions ARE offered £4M a season each it means one of two things:

1) BT have upped their deal by around £60M for an Anglo-Welsh league over an English league and English games in full European cup.

2) The regions are getting significantly more than the clubs.

First one is highly unlikely. Second one would rely on the serious generosity of the clubs to help their neighbours survive.

If they do go it will be interesting to see who the WRU enter into the Rabo next season and up until 2017.  Which is how long they are contracted to provide professional teams to the Rabo for.  

Otherwise, as other have pointed out the IRFU and co will be seeking damages from Welsh rugby for loss of earnings.

Griff wrote:Also Geoff, the irony in your post is that the Ospreys have had a huge falling out with Neath a few years back to the point where there is/was pretty much no relationship between the two at all. Hardly the rosy region that you talk of. Neath at one point said they'd refuse to let any players join the ospreys, which is maybe why they went from top of the table, winning every year to falling down the pecking order a bit (I.e. players were a bit reluctant to join them in case their pathway was blocked).

I think their relationship with Aberavon and Bridgend is pretty good though. Not too sure.

Putting words in my mouth there Griff.
I did not say Ospreys was a rosy region.
I said the situation there was not great but pointed out that it was better than the others.
Well aware of the view points held in Neath - have friends there.

No region works in the way it needs to to succeed.

But they're not allowed to. The WRU have said they're expected to be pro teams and that's it. They're only relationship with the premiership clubs is to take players from them and to give them their spare players if available.

So the PRL have offered the regions basically what they currently receive ... and they've already been described as unsustainable. If it does go ahead - and there are other interested parties here (RFU etc) - then it will leave Welsh rugby splintered. This is not the way to go about things. It'll be one mess replaced with a new mess.

I think the WRU will re negotiate with the regions but they shouldn't.

[quote="Cardiff Dave"][quote="Allty"][quote="Cardiff Dave"][quote="Allty"]You will not be alone I have found it very difficult to support the regions as they are.

I certainly will not be supporting any Welsh region that is intent on destroying the Rabbo

[/quote]

So you'd prefer it if the regions signed the PA, which would be financially crippling for them to do so?

[/quote]

I dont think I said that CD

There is only one way forwards and thats [b]negotiation not War[/b] the existing mess cant continue[/quote]

Agreed, but both sides have been unable to negotiate for several years. The relationship has completely broken down.[/quote]




I know CD but it appears to me this is the only possible way forwards. Sadly when you have Gallacher involved its highly unlikley

This is a nightmare. We really need to sort this out. 7 Pro Welsh teams just won't work will it? What happens to the development pathways that have proven to be so successful to providing very strong U-20's, 18's teams. Too many ego's in this situation.

VinceWLB wrote:It is worth mentionning that the 4 millions figure is what the regions currently get from the rabo, HEC and LV=cup so they wouldn't get extra money just for joining aviva.

Dragons being 50% backed by the wru, it is hard to believe they can survive without the wru.

We aren't 50% backed by the WRU. Don't think the other regions would be overly happy with that.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:So the PRL have offered the regions basically what they currently receive ... and they've already been described as unsustainable. If it does go ahead - and there are other interested parties here (RFU etc) - then it will leave Welsh rugby splintered. This is not the way to go about things. It'll be one mess replaced with a new mess.

As an extra the WRU would have to pay the Regions a decent amount for the out of IRB window not the paltry amount they now pay.

Risca Rev wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:It is worth mentionning that the 4 millions figure is what the regions currently get from the rabo, HEC and LV=cup so they wouldn't get extra money just for joining aviva.

Dragons being 50% backed by the wru, it is hard to believe they can survive without the wru.

We aren't 50% backed by the WRU. Don't think the other regions would be overly happy with that.

Quite right well done RR

Coleman wrote:This is a nightmare. We really need to sort this out. 7 Pro Welsh teams just won't work will it? What happens to the development pathways that have proven to be so successful to providing very strong U-20's, 18's teams. Too many ego's in this situation.

Coleman, I've posted this a number of times the Os puts in 4 TIMES the amount they receive from the WRU into their ACADEMY, the same could apply to the other Regions.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:So the PRL have offered the regions basically what they currently receive ... and they've already been described as unsustainable. If it does go ahead - and there are other interested parties here (RFU etc) - then it will leave Welsh rugby splintered. This is not the way to go about things. It'll be one mess replaced with a new mess.

If the deal offered by the WRU is truly unsustainable for them then this AP deal isn't equal, in spite of the money being the same, it is in fact slightly worse. One region can be relegated (unlike the rabbo) which means less money for one of them and possible permanent financial doom because of it.

If or when the PRL decide that they want to rejoin a European cup they won't be able to keep all those fixtures. Which means there will be fewer teams once more in the AP and English clubs will not want to give up a full quarter of this league to Welsh sides.

This deal is basically a stop gap for the English clubs until their deal with BT runs out, or they figure out a way to join the h cup on their terms. This is totally obvious. If the regions join the AP out of frustration or optimism they are unbelievably short sighted. I don't know how they can believe that the English sides will never again play in a European competition.

If or when the AP no longer needs the Welsh regions they won't have an exit strategy. The rabbo will be closed to them. This is just a slow form of suicide.

[quote="Risca Rev"][quote="VinceWLB"]It is worth mentionning that the 4 millions figure is what the regions currently get from the rabo, HEC and LV=cup so they wouldn't get extra money just for joining aviva.

Dragons being 50% backed by the wru, it is hard to believe they can survive without the wru.[/quote]

We aren't 50% backed by the WRU. Don't think the other regions would be overly happy with that.[/quote]

____________________

RR would the word owned be acceptable or am I wrong

Intotouch wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:So the PRL have offered the regions basically what they currently receive ... and they've already been described as unsustainable. If it does go ahead - and there are other interested parties here (RFU etc) - then it will leave Welsh rugby splintered. This is not the way to go about things. It'll be one mess replaced with a new mess.

If the deal offered by the WRU is truly unsustainable for them then this AP deal isn't equal, in spite of the money being the same, it is in fact slightly worse. One region can be relegated (unlike the rabbo) which means less money for one of them and possible permanent financial doom because of it.

If or when the PRL decide that they want to rejoin a European cup they won't be able to keep all those fixtures. Which means there will be fewer teams once more in the AP and English clubs will not want to give up a full quarter of this league to Welsh sides.

This deal is basically a stop gap for the English clubs until their deal with BT runs out, or they figure out a way to join the h cup on their terms. This is totally obvious. If the regions join the AP out of frustration or optimism they are unbelievably short sighted. I don't know how they can believe that the English sides will never again play in a European competition.

If or when the AP no longer needs the Welsh regions they won't have an exit strategy. The rabbo will be closed to them. This is just a slow form of suicide.

You (and everyone else) don't have a clue what "this deal" consists of so there's no point talking about how it's good or bad.

I like it  

Intotouch wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:So the PRL have offered the regions basically what they currently receive ... and they've already been described as unsustainable. If it does go ahead - and there are other interested parties here (RFU etc) - then it will leave Welsh rugby splintered. This is not the way to go about things. It'll be one mess replaced with a new mess.

If the deal offered by the WRU is truly unsustainable for them then this AP deal isn't equal, in spite of the money being the same, it is in fact slightly worse. One region can be relegated (unlike the rabbo) which means less money for one of them and possible permanent financial doom because of it.

If or when the PRL decide that they want to rejoin a European cup they won't be able to keep all those fixtures. Which means there will be fewer teams once more in the AP and English clubs will not want to give up a full quarter of this league to Welsh sides.

This deal is basically a stop gap for the English clubs until their deal with BT runs out, or they figure out a way to join the h cup on their terms. This is totally obvious. If the regions join the AP out of frustration or optimism they are unbelievably short sighted. I don't know how they can believe that the English sides will never again play in a European competition.

If or when the AP no longer needs the Welsh regions they won't have an exit strategy. The rabbo will be closed to them. This is just a slow form of suicide.

I totally agree. These are my big objections also. If there is to be an Anglo Welsh or British league then it needs to be negotiated between the unions also so that everyone agrees and it has a sustainable long term future. This is all about the ongoing dispute between RRW and the WRU and it damages everyone.

wayne wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:So the PRL have offered the regions basically what they currently receive ... and they've already been described as unsustainable. If it does go ahead - and there are other interested parties here (RFU etc) - then it will leave Welsh rugby splintered. This is not the way to go about things. It'll be one mess replaced with a new mess.

As an extra the WRU would have to pay the Regions a decent amount for the out of IRB window not the paltry amount they now pay.

That extra AI is arranged, in part, to create extra funding for the regions. The WRU could just drop it if they no longer need to put money into the regions.

TBS, you do understand I presume, that the out of IRB window applies to the 13 days before the AI and 6N as well as the free weeks between match 2 and 3 and 3and 4 of the 6N as well as the period before the summer tour, they would have to NEGOTIATE a suitable recompense for these periods it would definately NOT be a paltry just over £1M.

Actually the 13 days before AI and 6 nations IS part of the IRB window. The weekend in the middle of those 13 days isn't included. The IRB changed their window in about 2009

HammerofThunor wrote:Actually the 13 days before AI and 6 nations IS part of the IRB window. The weekend in the middle of those 13 days isn't included. The IRB changed their window in about 2009

Sorry Hammer I think you are wrong, they are only allowed 6 days that is why the English Clubs don't have to release players like Paul James etc

Regulation 9.13. It allows for the release of players for 3 consecutive days before the AI and 6 nations assembly periods. This is usually the Monday-Wednesday roughly 13 days before the first game. This can't be used to stop a player representing their domestic team.

Some international players are released Monday and stay till Wednesday. Thursday they go back their club and play at the weekend. Monday they go back to their national team to train the week before their game.

I remember because they changed it just after the English EPS where the RFU were paying for this time.

HammerofThunor wrote:Regulation 9.13. It allows for the release of players for 3 consecutive days before the AI and 6 nations assembly periods. This is usually the Monday-Wednesday roughly 13 days before the first game. This can't be used to stop a player representing their domestic team.

Some international players are released Monday and stay till Wednesday. Thursday they go back their club and play at the weekend. Monday they go back to their national team to train the week before their game.

I remember because they changed it just after the English EPS where the RFU were paying for this time.

I didn't get as far as 9.13, yet 9.9 corroborates my argument as they are only allowed 5 days before the first international and this was in 2012

wayne wrote:TBS, you do understand I presume, that the out of IRB window applies to the 13 days before the AI and 6N as well as the free weeks between match 2 and 3 and 3and 4 of the 6N as well as the period before the summer tour, they would have to NEGOTIATE a suitable recompense for these periods it would definately NOT be a paltry just over £1M.

Here are some possibilities:

1. RRW joins PRL and WRU refusing to pay extra for player release go by the letter of the law. One less AI, less time for Wales prep. Wales results suffer.
2. WRU having formed two or three new regions instigate a new "Gatlands Law" requiring all Wales players to be centrally contracted. Wales results suffer.

That's just two possible outcomes. This is all very, very messy. As a fan I am not impressed with either side. In fact I am seriously p d off with both sides.

Yes but 9.13 adds additional training sessions. Two of which are 3 days before the AI and 6 Nations meet ups as I mentioned.