What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

geoff999rugby wrote:Happy new Year Risca - maybe less of the insults should be your New Years resolution.

Just because a poster picks up on a particular point does not mean the poster doesn't mean they are not aware of the wider picture.
In these uncertain times speculation and throwing around ideas should be meat and drink to boards like this.
If you disagree you don't have to come out with the rude jibe.

For the record: One of my best mates is a Blues fan and I also know some Neath supporters so I get an opinion from both sides of the Regions debate, in Wales, from Welshmen.

Geoff, please don't take this the wrong way, but at the moment with the current situation in Wales, it is very hard for us not to get uptight about it. Your claims that the current structure is just 4 super-clubs is very incorrect. The Ospreys have always claimed to be a region, and get lauded up for it. And ask any Scarlets or Dragons fan, and they will tell you that both regions pull a large number of supporters from outside of Llanelli/Newport. You have been told this by Scarlets fans from Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire, and by Dragons fans from Risca etc, yet you still tell us that we are wrong and that our regions are not regions.

If the current 'regions' joined the AP would they still be able to have academies in Wales though and be fed by Welsh clubs?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Lets keep this on track guys, and cut the childish stuff

Can you 'cc' the WRU and the RRW in on this one?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Happy new Year Risca - maybe less of the insults should be your New Years resolution.

Just because a poster picks up on a particular point does not mean the poster doesn't mean they are not aware of the wider picture.
In these uncertain times speculation and throwing around ideas should be meat and drink to boards like this.
If you disagree you don't have to come out with the rude jibe.

For the record: One of my best mates is a Blues fan and I also know some Neath supporters so I get an opinion from both sides of the Regions debate, in Wales, from Welshmen.

Geoff, please don't take this the wrong way, but at the moment with the current situation in Wales, it is very hard for us not to get uptight about it.  Your claims that the current structure is just 4 super-clubs is very incorrect.  The Ospreys have always claimed to be a region, and get lauded up for it.  And ask any Scarlets or Dragons fan, and they will tell you that both regions pull a large number of supporters from outside of Llanelli/Newport.  You have been told this by Scarlets fans from Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire, and by Dragons fans from Risca etc, yet you still tell us that we are wrong and that our regions are not regions.

Sorry SS but I have to agree with Geoff here ... coming from a Llanelli based Scarlets fan. They do indeed draw from a wide area and yes indeed they do make an effort to get the players out and about for kids training etc. However they are run by the clubs, or you could say by the same people who ran them as clubs prior to 2003. Despite numerous posters claiming the O's are the one true region - they are basically Swansea in all but name. Until the regions lose that baggage and are run separately to the clubs that spawned them they are effectively super-clubs. Just taking a look at Cardiff Dave's posts is enough to show what the attitude at the Blues is. I did once have high hopes for these regions. I hoped they would embrace regionalism. Sadly I think they've failed in the project that was sold to us fans. The fatal flaw is allowing 4 individual clubs to run the regions. Should have been a collaborative affair from the start. Never was so they could never become truly "regional."

Casartelli wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Lets keep this on track guys, and cut the childish stuff

Can you 'cc' the WRU and the RRW in on this one?

  

  

It's not insulting to say you seem like you have no idea. All you are offering is tired cliches as to why they're superclubs. My posts are telling you why they're not and I've asked you to suggest a ground in my region as fit for purpose as RP.

Also you and your friends can check out the work that my region (and others) do around the region (outside Newport). You can also see where our new training site is being built and maybe come to a game at RP, hear the songs and take note of the guard of honours. As an example, check where Newbridge RFC juniors are from in Newport (who were one of the teams who formed it for the blues game). If you're bored, check how loaded Bedwas were for their game v Bridgend the other day and then say we don't have a relationship with clubs in our region.

Then see why I class it as either ignorant or not really knowing what they're on about when they suggest Dragons are Newport.

TBS, so your saying that the Scarlets are not my representative team because some people on their board were on the Llanelli RFC board (Also not too sure how many actually were, there have been a fair few changes at the top since Gallagher left). The Ospreys are basically a renamed Swansea? So when was Cuddy the top man at Swansea? I thought he was the big dog in Neath pre-regionalism. Yes Dai's posts give his view points, but then Risca, Me, Bedford, WelshMagian give view point that totally differ. Although maybe it shows that people who live/grew up in the town/city where the team are from believe them to be superclubs, and the out of towners consider them to be regions because we want to be involved.

But to the point at hand do you truly believe that if there were new teams set up that things would differ at all?

Cas - I am getting worried, your being the voice of sanity there. The world truly has turned upside down   

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Happy new Year Risca - maybe less of the insults should be your New Years resolution.

Just because a poster picks up on a particular point does not mean the poster doesn't mean they are not aware of the wider picture.
In these uncertain times speculation and throwing around ideas should be meat and drink to boards like this.
If you disagree you don't have to come out with the rude jibe.

For the record: One of my best mates is a Blues fan and I also know some Neath supporters so I get an opinion from both sides of the Regions debate, in Wales, from Welshmen.

Geoff, please don't take this the wrong way, but at the moment with the current situation in Wales, it is very hard for us not to get uptight about it.  Your claims that the current structure is just 4 super-clubs is very incorrect.  The Ospreys have always claimed to be a region, and get lauded up for it.  And ask any Scarlets or Dragons fan, and they will tell you that both regions pull a large number of supporters from outside of Llanelli/Newport.  You have been told this by Scarlets fans from Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire, and by Dragons fans from Risca etc, yet you still tell us that we are wrong and that our regions are not regions.

Sorry SS but I have to agree with Geoff here ... coming from a Llanelli based Scarlets fan. They do indeed draw from a wide area and yes indeed they do make an effort to get the players out and about for kids training etc. However they are run by the clubs, or you could say by the same people who ran them as clubs prior to 2003. Despite numerous posters claiming the O's are the one true region - they are basically Swansea in all but name. Until the regions lose that baggage and are run separately to the clubs that spawned them they are effectively super-clubs. Just taking a look at Cardiff Dave's posts is enough to show what the attitude at the Blues is. I did once have high hopes for these regions. I hoped they would embrace regionalism. Sadly I think they've failed in the project that was sold to us fans. The fatal flaw is allowing 4 individual clubs to run the regions. Should have been a collaborative affair from the start. Never was so they could never become truly "regional."

I agree. They have attempted to appear more as regions in recent years, but too little too late unfortunately. They will always seem to be clubs in their own or others peoples eyes.  I have been a Blues supporter from their inception, but sadly, to start afresh may be the only way forward.

I always remember watching the build up to the Cardiff Blues v Leicester Tigers Heineken cup semi-final. The interviewer said to Martyn Williams something like 'So, this is the furthest Cardiff have got in the competition since the final against Toulouse in 1996 in the old national staduim. Think you can make the final again'. Martyn responds with something like 'Yeah thats true and hopefully we can go one better this year'

That interview said it all really about how 'regional' the Blues are

Steffan, nothing from WRU or official just reported in a number of papers that its what the WRU are thinking.

Sorry SS I did start writing it as east with Pony and Saris road but changed it, forgot to change the main East West bit.

To be honest if the WRU did get their way the East/West teams would have a lot of potential (as long as mentioned above they are prepared to fund them even better than the IRFU do the provinces to get them off the ground), it would basically be a Scarlets and Ospreys combined team, and a Dragons/Blues combined, and RCG 1404 getting pick of some international players, and other players from the 4 (internationals placed on central contracts).

If a West Wales team (playing under brand new name/kit etc) was formed using the best players from Scarlets and Ospreys, played 4 home games at The Liberty and Parc y Scarlets and 3 at the Gnoll, with a home Hcup game in each. I think this team would have huge potential, and if gelled and coached would be pushing for the later stages in Europe and Pro 12.

I'd see a fan like Scarletspiderman like many fans, attending the 5 home games in PYS, and is still free to support Llanelli in the Welsh Prem the other weeks, meaning that the club V region debate can be avoided. However it would mean seeing less top flight games in a season, but maybe that would make it more of an occasion meaning all games are sell out crowds?

It does mean some fans would have less top flight games but it does mean others (like in Neath) would have more.

The West Wales Wizards (WWW) could be a very big team?

I was at that game. Behind the posts for the farcical penalty shootout!

Kingshu - cracking idea in theory.  A few draw backs.  The Liberty would not be an option as a stadium, as the Ospreys are only allowed to play there because they signed the contract to play there before the Swans got promoted.  And also, just being a real pendant, but Neath and Swansea are not in West Wales. Although if games were player in say Aberwystyth, Llanelli and Haverfordwest, that would be fine, as all are in the west.

Where would an East Wales region play then?

Sardis Road needs a series makeover, any team playing at the Arms Park has to be called 'Kaaaaidiff' and play in blue (apparently) and Dave Parade might be hosting Aviva matches instead as well as Newport County games

The millenium is ofcourse an option but it is rather big for a team that will clearly not sell out

ScarletSpiderman wrote:TBS, so your saying that the Scarlets are not my representative team because some people on their board were on the Llanelli RFC board (Also not too sure how many actually were, there have been a fair few changes at the top since Gallagher left).  The Ospreys are basically a renamed Swansea?  So when was Cuddy the top man at Swansea?  I thought he was the big dog in Neath pre-regionalism.  Yes Dai's posts give his view points, but then Risca, Me, Bedford, WelshMagian give view point that totally differ.  Although maybe it shows that people who live/grew up in the town/city where the team are from believe them to be superclubs, and the out of towners consider them to be regions because we want to be involved.  

But to the point at hand do you truly believe that if there were new teams set up that things would differ at all?

Lots of point raised there SS. No I'm not saying they can't represent you. You yourself said that you supported them as Llanelli RFC. The club always did have a geographically wide set of fans. That was one of the big reasons given why the club could stand alone. You say there have been changes at the top - but it's still the same club and it's still Llanelli RFC running the Scarlets. That was my point.

Cuddy has pretty much abandoned neath as far as I know. Blyth is the big noise at the Ospreys and he's a swansea man through and through. Although the big Ospreys Neath scrap has been patched up, it's pretty much run by Swansea people.

Your penultimate point is about perspective. My point is that to be truly regional the clubs that spawned the regions need to relinquish the running to the stakeholders in the regions they purport to represent. I think there's about as much chance of that happening as Jar Jar Binks playing fly half for Wales.

The last point - this is so up for grabs it's impossible to give an accurate opinion. Potentially yes, but equally no. All depends on how its done.

West wales doesn't exist in this format. If you split South Wales into two (East and West) and Swansea isn't 'West Wales' then that means it's in East Wales. Er no.

Personally, if you are splitting it into East and West (South) Wales it would be:
East - Porthcawl up towards Brecon and East
West - Port Talbot up Neath valley and across to as far up the West coast as needed.
North - Mid Wales and up, using some 'sensible' Southern boarder.

Now regards to the 'Super clubs' it does get a little tiresome. First off, Cardiff Blues aren't really a Region. They were stand alone and then Ponty got dumped on them. But then with the number of pro teams set up in South Wales (5) they shouldn't be anything more than a Cardiff Region. The Urban population of Cardiff is about 500,000 in a country of 3,000,000 (and around 700,000 are supposed to live in North Wales). Add in some of the metropolitan areas and you have enough for a region. If you're going for only 2 teams in South Wales, then yes they need to include others.

On top the others, I don't know much about Dragons but for the Ospreys I lived in Swansea for 3 years from 2005 and have been back and forth to Resolven (Neath valley) since 2001. Pretty much everyone in Resolven supports the Ospreys and they have since inception (not sure if they followed Neath before hand or not). Where I worked, everyone supported the Ospreys, some were from Swansea, others were from Neath. Some of the Swansea people complained (not massively) about the heavily Neath influence on the Ospreys. When they were formed the Ospreys played at St Helens and the Gnoll until they moved to the Liberty in 2005/06 season. So it's not like they've moved to the base of Swansea rugby (don't Swansea still play at St Helens?). They moved to a brand new stadium, and yes it in the largest population density in the region.

As for Scarlets, well Llanelli were pretty much a region before the region was formed around them so it makes sense that little would change. They issue there is they were lumped with North Wales, just because...However a friend of mine was from Newtown and their rugby club have affiliations with Scarlets and his brother went do with the rugby club for something or other.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kingshu - cracking idea in theory.  A few draw backs.  The Liberty would not be an option as a stadium, as the Ospreys are only allowed to play there because they signed the contract to play there before the Swans got promoted.  And also, just being a real pendant, but Neath and Swansea are not in West Wales.

I thought that about the Liberity, but wondered about the rules. I know once in the premiership they cannot sign a contact to ground share, but existing ones can continue, and I guess can be renewed. So could the contract with Ospreys be amended? and still stay within premship football rules?

Also if the Ospreys joined the Jeff and reverted to being Swansea (as reported may happen) would their contract to share the Liberity continue, or as a new identity in a new league, would it be void and hence Swansea FC cannot sign a new contact to share with Swansea RFC, as Swansea RFC offical home is St Helen's Rugby and Cricket Ground, so it is possible a contact could not be signed for Swansea RFC to play in the Jeff at the Liberty?

I would never have thought of Neath as West Wales but it appears its the way the WRU are defining them, maybe North Wales, Central/West Wales and South/SouthEast Wales would be a bit more accurate.

Bridgend Ravens and Aberavon RFC may even fall into the Central/West Wales branch.

I'd just chose a sensible name, don't know if it would be best to create a branch of the WRU made up of all the clubs in the regions to run all rugby in the region, below the Principality Premiership have each regional union run its own league to reduce travel for lower clubs, or just have a team that every club in the said region feeds into, no one club bigger than any other.

Here's a simple geographic divide:

West - West Glam + Dyfed
East - Mid Glam, South Glam + Gwent
North - Powys, Clwyd + Gwynedd.

You can divvy up any which way you like. This is all speculation. The big point is whether or not it's doable for the WRU to dump the current regions and set up new ones. Again, not if it's a unilateral approach. My same objection goes for the RRW going with the PRL without union approval.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Here's a simple geographic divide:

West - West Glam + Dyfed
East - Mid Glam, South Glam + Gwent
North - Powys, Clwyd + Gwynedd.

You can divvy up any which way you like. This is all speculation. The big point is whether or not it's doable for the WRU to dump the current regions and set up new ones. Again, not if it's a unilateral approach. My same objection goes for the RRW going with the PRL without union approval.

Good logical geographic device. And in fairness as others have said, going by three regions I guess yeah Swansea is West, i keep thinking four regions, as all the superclub arguements used to be about north, south, east and west. Should be interesting to see what happens.

So what will happen to the 4 current Welsh 'regions' then if they join the AP? Will they lose regional status and have to join the AP as clubs. Would the WRU allow them to keep their academies and be fed from Welsh semi-pro clubs?

Steffan wrote:So what will happen to the 4 current Welsh 'regions' then if they join the AP? Will they lose regional status and have to join the AP as clubs. Would the WRU allow them to keep their academies and be fed from Welsh semi-pro clubs?

See - big can of worms isn't it, and one blydi good reason why the clubs/regions concerned should not act unilaterally in this matter. The WRU would be well in their rights to expel Llanelli, Cardiff & Newport and likely Swansea too (as far as I know Neath aren't involved in the running of the Ospreys anymore). They could pull all the money they give the regions over and above the TV monies and wash their hands of them. They could then start up their own teams and put their own support structures in place and instigate a new "Gatlands Law." Then we end up with a schism in the welsh game with the governing body competing with RRW for players. An unpalatable outcome?

Thats why I just say have 1 single South Wales province and 1 North Wales province. The south out of the Millenium stadium and the North out of the new Erias Park stadium in Colwyn Bay.

Then have a pro / semi pro 10 team Premiership.

Just out of curiosity for this "West Wales Region". Who owns Parc y Scarlets? If the Liberty is a no go for a new tenant, and if The Gnoll is a not fit for purpose what other stadiums are there in the “West" that could cope with Pro Rugby with all the facilities needed.

The way I see it going is that the WRU install a team in the MS as they own it and it would provide some income when they’re not using it. They could move games around the East region to other stadia when they have music, speedway, and other events on.

RGC is easy; they’ve been building the infrastructure up there for a while now. If they bring back a few of the better Gogs (North would be a coup) then I’d be very excited to see that develop.

Personally, I don’t see the Welsh teams surviving in the Aviva with no academies and you’d assume the WRU would implement a rule where players who play for those teams are to be excluded from the Welsh team.

Shifty wrote:Thats why I just say have 1 single South Wales province and 1 North Wales province.  The south out of the Millenium stadium and the North out of the new Erias Park stadium in Colwyn Bay.  

Then have a pro / semi pro 10 team Premiership.

I agree on the 10 team Premiership mate. Make that as competitive as possible. Get the crowds back in and the best youngters playing and that could be an extra region in a way. Still think we have room for 2 teams in the south though (East and West)

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Steffan wrote:So what will happen to the 4 current Welsh 'regions' then if they join the AP? Will they lose regional status and have to join the AP as clubs. Would the WRU allow them to keep their academies and be fed from Welsh semi-pro clubs?

See - big can of worms isn't it, and one blydi good reason why the clubs/regions concerned should not act unilaterally in this matter. The WRU would be well in their rights to expel Llanelli, Cardiff & Newport and likely Swansea too (as far as I know Neath aren't involved in the running of the Ospreys anymore). They could pull all the money they give the regions over and above the TV monies and wash their hands of them. They could then start up their own teams and put their own support structures in place and instigate a new "Gatlands Law." Then we end up with a schism in the welsh game with the governing body competing with RRW for players. An unpalatable outcome?

I think that's what the current regions are hoping for, above in bold. They get about £16m currently between them from the WRU. £9m for tv and £6m for the participation agreement (extra access to players, etc. So they'd lose this £6m if they go to England. Yet the English have offered £4m each which is £16m, and that's just for an expanded premiership. So the regions lose nothing in monetary terms. Perhaps the regions hope that in addition there will be European tv money on top of that too when it gets sorted, so they may be better off than if they stay with the WRU on the current deal.

I don't agree with it. I'd prefer to stay in the Rabo and try to sort out better regions. But I thought I'd try to guess at the reason for an attempted breakaway. There must be a reason, right?!

Personally I think the 'regions' thought that they could hold the WRU to ransom. Demand more money, get paid it and still have the WRUs blessing to join the AP. Looks like WRU havnt backed down to the plan though. If they do leave to join the AP then they should really be stripped of 'regional' status for turning their backs on the WRU. No doubt with money from the English game they would be able to keep and buy top players. Where would the youngsters come from though if the best of Welsh up and coming talent was contracted in Wales. Would they just end up with a load of non-Welsh qualified players and a few token Welsh as the old heads in a few years?

I can't see the regions competing with the WRU in the long run. The WRU will start up new teams and academies and eventually use central contracts to keep their star players in Wales.

If the regions joined the Jeff, would they start of like a promoted team with only B shares? and then gain A shares each year, and have to find a club to sell their P shares to them like Exeter Chiefs did?

Premiership Shares
Each club gets B shares
Every club gets five A shares for every year they are in the Premiership.
Clubs get a maximum of 40 A shares after six years
P shares, worth 25% of income, only given to 13 clubs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19785431

It could take six years and a large outlay for P-shares (Exeter paid £5 million a few years ago) to be earning the same as most Prem teams.

Would the regions survive in the Jeff will the same income as a newly promoted team, less than what Sale Newcastle LI etc get?

Kingshu wrote:Would the regions survive in the Jeff will the same income as a newly promoted team, less than what Sale Newcastle LI etc get?

With a bit of luck they wont be our problem by then  

Griff wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Steffan wrote:So what will happen to the 4 current Welsh 'regions' then if they join the AP? Will they lose regional status and have to join the AP as clubs. Would the WRU allow them to keep their academies and be fed from Welsh semi-pro clubs?

See - big can of worms isn't it, and one blydi good reason why the clubs/regions concerned should not act unilaterally in this matter. The WRU would be well in their rights to expel Llanelli, Cardiff & Newport and likely Swansea too (as far as I know Neath aren't involved in the running of the Ospreys anymore). They could pull all the money they give the regions over and above the TV monies and wash their hands of them. They could then start up their own teams and put their own support structures in place and instigate a new "Gatlands Law." Then we end up with a schism in the welsh game with the governing body competing with RRW for players. An unpalatable outcome?

I think that's what the current regions are hoping for, above in bold. They get about £16m currently between them from the WRU. £9m for tv and £6m for the participation agreement (extra access to players, etc. So they'd lose this £6m if they go to England. Yet the English have offered £4m each which is £16m, and that's just for an expanded premiership. So the regions lose nothing in monetary terms. Perhaps the regions hope that in addition there will be European tv money on top of that too when it gets sorted, so they may be better off than if they stay with the WRU on the current deal.

I don't agree with it. I'd prefer to stay in the Rabo and try to sort out better regions. But I thought I'd try to guess at the reason for an attempted breakaway. There must be a reason, right?!

You and me both! I think the reason is that they want to be totally in control of their income streams. I don't blame them for that. The trouble is that £4m each isn't enough now and it won't be enough in the AP. Are these teams going to magic money from somewhere? Again another reason why they shouldn't act unilaterally.

Profitus wrote:I can't see the regions competing with the WRU in the long run. The WRU will start up new teams and academies and eventually use central contracts to keep their star players in Wales.

I agree. I think this is the most likely outcome.

[quote="Coleman"]Just out of curiosity for this "West Wales Region". Who owns Parc y Scarlets? If the Liberty is a no go for a new tenant, and if The Gnoll is a not fit for purpose what other stadiums are there in the “West" that could cope with Pro Rugby with all the facilities needed.

.[/quote]

Carmarthen CC own PYS and dont charge the Scarlets any rent

I think the Liberty is at least part owned by Swansea City but I'm not sure

The £27 million Liberty stadium was built using public money — and the council holds a one-third share-holding in Swansea Stadium Management Company, which runs the Liberty and made a profit, according to latest accounts.

I wonder if The SCC can throw the O's out if they break the WRU contract

Allty wrote:

Coleman wrote:Just out of curiosity for this "West Wales Region". Who owns Parc y Scarlets? If the Liberty is a no go for a new tenant, and if The Gnoll is a not fit for purpose what other stadiums are there in the “West" that could cope with Pro Rugby with all the facilities needed.

.

Carmarthen CC own PYS and dont charge the Scarlets any rent

I think the Liberty is at least part owned by Swansea City but I'm not sure

Haven't they leased it to the Scarlets for 150 years or something daft like that?

Allty wrote:The £27 million Liberty stadium was built using public money — and the council holds a one-third share-holding in Swansea Stadium Management Company, which runs the Liberty and made a profit, according to latest accounts.

I wonder if The SCC can throw the O's out if they break the WRU contract

Liberty was built with SOME public money, extra from the Premier League, this is why Swansea have primacy of tenure over the Ospreys, and the Swansea Stadium Management Company is a tri-partite agreement between both teams and Swansea City Council and yes they make profits. The 2 teams have 50 year lease agreements in place and WRU are nowhere within the scope of any dealings in these arrangements.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Allty wrote:

Coleman wrote:Just out of curiosity for this "West Wales Region". Who owns Parc y Scarlets? If the Liberty is a no go for a new tenant, and if The Gnoll is a not fit for purpose what other stadiums are there in the “West" that could cope with Pro Rugby with all the facilities needed.

.

Carmarthen CC own PYS and dont charge the Scarlets any rent

I think the Liberty is at least part owned by Swansea City but I'm not sure

Haven't they leased it to the Scarlets for 150 years or something daft like that?

Yup. Scarlets have to start paying rent if their income goes above a certain threshold.

So it seems the Ospreys and Scarlets are fixed for their grounds and the WRU can't get at them?

[quote="HammerofThunor"]So it seems the Ospreys and Scarlets are fixed for their grounds and the WRU can't get at them?[/quote]

It could be argued that those agreements were made with regions who were part of the WRU and as soon as they become non affiliated the agreements could be considered void

Allty wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So it seems the Ospreys and Scarlets are fixed for their grounds and the WRU can't get at them?

It could be argued that those agreements were made with regions who were part of the WRU and as soon as they become non affiliated the agreements could be considered void

Probably not. The PYS lease agreement is between Llanelli RFC who own "The Scarlets" and Carms CC. As long as Llanelli RFC exists I don't think it matters to whom they are affiliated.

Another tangle in the web eh? Time after time there are good reasons why RRW and the WRU need to work this out between them. If either presses ahead without the other there will be significant long term damage to the game in Wales. I think the WRU should lay out a proposal for 3 regions, each with a board of directors/governors (whatever) made up of reps from the prem clubs, remaining regional clubs, official fans & WRU. They can offer to buy the O's out of their lease with Liberty and they can offer the various benefactors something reasonable in return for their input into the game. In effect a way out with honour. Then the WRU can go back to the Pro12 and HEC and re-negotiate their entries into those competitions. Short term pain, long term gain. I would like to see an arrangement along these lines:

Rabbo Pro 20 - 2 Divisions.

Div 1:

West Wales
East Wales
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Treviso
North Wales
Connacht

Div 2:

Zebre
+9 from around europe e.g. romania, spain etc

Promotion and relegation for 1 team between divisions each season and a fair share of sponsorship to the developing countries.

That way you can put the top 8 into the HEC - 8:6:6 with the Franglos (when things settle down a bit   ) and the remainder into the Amlin AND we will be helping to build the game in Europe and start to tap into new markets giving the potential for expanding tv revenues.

Allty wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:So it seems the Ospreys and Scarlets are fixed for their grounds and the WRU can't get at them?

It could be argued that those agreements were made with regions who were part of the WRU and as soon as they become non affiliated the agreements could be considered void

No, it really can't be argued that.   

It would be fun though  

I'm looking forward to the next few days It could be very interesting and very sad.

Allty wrote:It would be fun though  

I'm looking forward to the next few days It could be very interesting and very sad

The likely event is that it will be a sad outcome and the WRU will continue to let these pro-clubs dominate Welsh rugby whether it be in the Pro 12 or the Aviva. Shame though as some real regions would have been good and a possible turning point in Welsh rugby for the better

Well Halfpenny's on his way to Toulon. Just been reported in the Wendy Fail.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-star-leigh-halfpenny-agrees-6455798

[quote="Steffan"][quote="Allty"]It would be fun though  

I'm looking forward to the next few days It could be very interesting and very sad[/quote]
The likely event is that it will be a sad outcome and the WRU will continue to let these pro-clubs dominate Welsh rugby whether it be in the Pro 12 or the Aviva. Shame though as some real regions would have been good and a possible turning point in Welsh rugby for the better[/quote]


Steffan my money is on the WRU this time.

The WRU just cant keep on giving in to the egos that run the failing businesses

The thing is one half of regionalism worked. The part that was to improve the test team. Almost every player who played in the 3 6 Nations title winning teams came through the regional academies. The best of the talent of Wales was concentrated into 4 teams and given weekly competition with the best of Ireland, Scotland and then Italy, as well as regular HC rugby.

The other half failed though. The super clubs have not been able to generate enough support and money to keep the best players and compete. I heard the original plan was for 3 real regions, which may have worked better (imagine the combined talent of say, Scarlets and Ospreys with finances to keep players, a daunting prospect. How much support would a north Wales team get. Who knows?). But I think it's to late for that now. We could see a crazy situation soon, where some Welsh fans are loyal to the old clubs, some are loyal to the superclub regions and some are loyal to some new geographic WRU regions. That would obviously be stupidly splitting Wales potential income and support three ways with nobody reaching anywhere near their potential, and the superclub regions being completely separate from the WRU and therefore no incentive to do anything that may help the wider game in Wales.

The best solution is for the current regions and the WRU to make peace. The phrase never waste a good crisis comes to mind. Something drastic needs to change and it needs all the stakeholders behind it. Pick one solution and everyone go with it. That could be the four regions joining the English with the full backing of the WRU.

I know little of Welsh rugby so I don't know how my suggestion would go down but here it is. The clubs go totally amateur and that funding goes to the regions. The WRU guarantee a certain percentage of their income to support the regions (more in line with what the Irish provinces get if possible, and it would mean a large increase when the stadium is paid off) in return for more control over elite players and more cooperation between the owners and what the WRU see as what's best for the game. The regions stay in the Pro12 for as long as the WRU are obliged to enter teams. And they enter the HC next year. They then have plenty of time to sit down together and discuss the English league move and whether it's viable or desirable. Such a drastic move is crazy in the heat of such an argument and so much instability in the game right now. I'd also look at tweaking the brands of Scarlets and Blues to try and keep the current support and broaden appeal. Would a new (unused by a club) colour and name be acceptable at all for Blues?

There has to be grand bargain in Wales. And there has to be grand bargain in Europe. It would definitely be possible with cooler heads. I've seen Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinnes shake hands and share a joke for heavens sake.

Jaysus I didn't mean to write that much. I should write the screenplay for Peter Jacksons next movie.

Steffan wrote:If the current 'regions' joined the AP would they still be able to have academies in Wales though and be fed by Welsh clubs?

Maybe do a little research on the subject of who pays for what as regards the academies and who 'feeds' who?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Happy new Year Risca - maybe less of the insults should be your New Years resolution.

Just because a poster picks up on a particular point does not mean the poster doesn't mean they are not aware of the wider picture.
In these uncertain times speculation and throwing around ideas should be meat and drink to boards like this.
If you disagree you don't have to come out with the rude jibe.

For the record: One of my best mates is a Blues fan and I also know some Neath supporters so I get an opinion from both sides of the Regions debate, in Wales, from Welshmen.

Geoff, please don't take this the wrong way, but at the moment with the current situation in Wales, it is very hard for us not to get uptight about it.  Your claims that the current structure is just 4 super-clubs is very incorrect.  The Ospreys have always claimed to be a region, and get lauded up for it.  And ask any Scarlets or Dragons fan, and they will tell you that both regions pull a large number of supporters from outside of Llanelli/Newport.  You have been told this by Scarlets fans from Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire, and by Dragons fans from Risca etc, yet you still tell us that we are wrong and that our regions are not regions.

Sorry SS but I have to agree with Geoff here ... coming from a Llanelli based Scarlets fan. They do indeed draw from a wide area and yes indeed they do make an effort to get the players out and about for kids training etc. However they are run by the clubs, or you could say by the same people who ran them as clubs prior to 2003. Despite numerous posters claiming the O's are the one true region - they are basically Swansea in all but name. Until the regions lose that baggage and are run separately to the clubs that spawned them they are effectively super-clubs. Just taking a look at Cardiff Dave's posts is enough to show what the attitude at the Blues is. I did once have high hopes for these regions. I hoped they would embrace regionalism. Sadly I think they've failed in the project that was sold to us fans. The fatal flaw is allowing 4 individual clubs to run the regions. Should have been a collaborative affair from the start. Never was so they could never become truly "regional."

The 'fatal flaw' was convincing Dai the village idiot he was entitled to a region without having to put his hand in his pocket. Exhibit A, m'lud.

profitius wrote:I can't see the regions competing with the WRU in the long run. The WRU will start up new teams and academies and eventually use central contracts to keep their star players in Wales.

Despite the leaked information from the WRU's own PWC report into the regional game categorically stating that the above plan was cloud cuckoo land stuff?

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:I can't see the regions competing with the WRU in the long run. The WRU will start up new teams and academies and eventually use central contracts to keep their star players in Wales.

 Despite the leaked information from the WRU's own PWC report into the regional game categorically stating that the above plan was cloud cuckoo land stuff?

That was on the basis of recruiting four teams worth of players. Besides, the WRU have shown willingness to start central contracts. Put the two together along with the kind of money that's available and two teams (+1 development maybe) centrally contracted looks possible - especially if the current regions decide to jump ship and the WRU are obliged to enter sides into the Pro12 and HEC.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:I can't see the regions competing with the WRU in the long run. The WRU will start up new teams and academies and eventually use central contracts to keep their star players in Wales.

 Despite the leaked information from the WRU's own PWC report into the regional game categorically stating that the above plan was cloud cuckoo land stuff?

That was on the basis of recruiting four teams worth of players. Besides, the WRU have shown willingness to start central contracts. Put the two together along with the kind of money that's available and two teams (+1 development maybe) centrally contracted looks possible - especially if the current regions decide to jump ship and the WRU are obliged to enter sides into the Pro12 and HEC.

The bit that worries me the most is the amount of players, both currently at the regions and in the academies that could/will fall through the grid. Let's not forget how many casualties there were when one region was closed down before, we even had a bleeding semi pro in our 05 grandslam side because of that (Mefin Davies was at Neath).