What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

HammerofThunor wrote:Yes but 9.13 adds additional training sessions. Two of which are 3 days before the AI and 6 Nations meet ups as I mentioned.

Yes, as i said I only got to 9.9, I just had another look and arrived at 9.13 and get your point, yet if Gatland wanted these players for the whole of the 13 day period, he would still have to pay, and due to the relations between RRW and WRU, they would only get those players 5 days before the first game.

These Anglo-Welsh plans are crazy.

So if a Welsh team was relegated from the Aviva, stayed down the following season and the other regions finished 14th, 15th and 16th then the 13th placed English team would be relegated.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Oh yes. The biggest issue was always the game played the week before the International rather than three extra days training. Also they would have to go back for the off weekends during the 6 nations.

madmaccas wrote:These Anglo-Welsh plans are crazy.

So if a Welsh team was relegated from the Aviva, stayed down the following season and the other regions finished 14th, 15th and 16th then the 13th placed English team would be relegated.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Actually you could. You could very easily make it up.

HammerofThunor wrote:

madmaccas wrote:These Anglo-Welsh plans are crazy.

So if a Welsh team was relegated from the Aviva, stayed down the following season and the other regions finished 14th, 15th and 16th then the 13th placed English team would be relegated.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Actually you could. You could very easily make it up.

 

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:II wouldn't argue the WRU has its failings but i'm just pointing out that the guys running the regions have made countless mistakes and this move to the Aviva could just be another one of those.  

What bothers me the most is that they are all happy to severe the ties and roll the dice.  Its just suicide.

Agreed and signing the PA in the first place was one of them.

Dave, it would be a valid point if the contract was actually better. The reported sum is supposed to be a matching figure for what they already get from the WRU. Sure if we had been talking about a greater sum then maybe you could sell me on how bad the WRU deal is. However taking the same deal elsewhere isn't really assuring me they are being truthful. I think they're banking the Aviva will bring them increased revenue from attendances again by offering them a better product. That apparently is the myth they are trying to sell us on. Are you really saying that teams like Worcester, London Irish, Newcastle, Sale will really produce that much better than the attendances the bottom sides in the Pro 12 provide?

I like calling a spade a spade and you can sugar coat it however you like if it helps you sleep at night. Bottom line is the product the regions have been serving up has been inconsistent, soft at times & and a poor standard. Can they take ownership of their own short comings? No. It seems to be about everyone else and totally deflecting from themselves. If I do a poor job at work I accept responsibility. I don't lay blame elsewhere for my short comings.

This myth that joining the Aviva will magically produce full stadiums is just another pot shot by them. Welsh families are finding current economic climate tough and its reflected in the choices they make. To start assuming you will make people come to watch just by changing leagues is exactly the sort of thinking that got them into this mess in the first place. Had they actually focused on making sure the right people where managing and coaching their teams to play with entertainment and a hard nosed edge each and every week and you might have been playing in front of full crowds. But yet again Dave you will dodge any of the real issues I have outlined and actually pass the buck similar to how the regions in general are treating the situation. Maybe we are just different people but I was brought up to make the best of what you have, work hard at it, be honest and accept responsibility. Every week it seems to be how the WRU are treating us badly and we are getting unfair treatment. Does this kind of approach actually even work in the real world? Life deals you the cards and its not always going to go your way. However making it work even in the worst circumstances and succeeding is a real test of strength and character. I've ranted long enough now so feel free to agree or disagree which is your prerogative.

[quote="Artful_Dodger"][quote="HammerofThunor"]

madmaccas wrote:These Anglo-Welsh plans are crazy.

So if a Welsh team was relegated from the Aviva, stayed down the following season and the other regions finished 14th, 15th and 16th then the 13th placed English team would be relegated.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Erm no - If in that following season the bottom 3 sides are all Welsh and one is already playing in National division 1 (having been relegated the previous season) would be promoted and the bottom Welsh side in last place would be relegated. This would therefore mean the side playing in National Division would get promotion regardless of its league standing in the lower league.

If however an English side would be last placed in the Premiership only a English side would be promoted so conversely if that relegated Welsh side did finish first in national division 1 they would be passed over to be replaced by a English side as I understand it. This would mean that at the stage where 1 welsh side is relegated from the Aviva, welsh regions would only ever be able to have a maximum of 3 teams at any given time playing top light rugby.

I assume if the regions did join an Ango-Welsh then RRW would merge into PRL, while the WRU would have to match the RFU's money for player release.

Nope I cant see the PRL wanting to bring the RRW onto the board. What if they need to make changes because a 16 team league isn't working or Europe is more profitable and they need to find weekends for fixtures.

The WRU don't accept the PRL negotiations over player release. They in fact wont even recognise them as a governing body and still send their player release requests through to the RFU who pass them on. The PRL have always wanted the WRU to pay for releases outside of the window but the WRU have never done this and instead just not selected players outside of this release period from PRL teams unless they have had clauses in their contracts (which North has been the only one). Others have just been missing altogether as was the case with Paul James even though Bath wanted him to play against Australia as they had agreed he would be available for club duty the previous weekend. Then the PRL stepped in for payment and the WRU released him back to Bath and selected him for the weekend Bath would have preferred his services. A stance I fully 100% agree with as I'd rather not see the money the WRU generate head over the bridge and instead be used within Wales for the improvement of the game over here.

Welshmushroom wrote:Nope I cant see the PRL wanting to bring the RRW onto the board.  What if they need to make changes because a 16 team league isn't working or Europe is more profitable and they need to find weekends for fixtures.  

The WRU don't accept the PRL negotiations over player release.  They in fact wont even recognise them as a governing body and still send their player release requests through to the RFU who pass them on.  The PRL have always wanted the WRU to pay for releases outside of the window but the WRU have never done this and instead just not selected players outside of this release period from PRL teams unless they have had clauses in their contracts (which North has been the only one).  Others have just been missing altogether as was the case with Paul James even though Bath wanted him to play against Australia as they had agreed he would be available for club duty the previous weekend.  Then the PRL stepped in for payment and the WRU released him back to Bath and selected him for the weekend Bath would have preferred his services.  A stance I fully 100% agree with as I'd rather not see the money the WRU generate head over the bridge and instead be used within Wales for the improvement of the game over here.

Not a problem, IF the regions join the Aviva it has already been stated that the LV Cup will be disbanded. The LV Cup is 4 weeks of pool games, a week for semi finals and a week for the final. Thats 6 weeks, right there. Remove the 2 weeks for the play offs and you have 8 weeks. Fitting the Welsh regions in is not any kind of a problem. It can easily work within the current frame work of the season.

I agree with what you say over the WRU not paying the PRL though, it helps to stop Welsh players going to England.

Shifty wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Nope I cant see the PRL wanting to bring the RRW onto the board.  What if they need to make changes because a 16 team league isn't working or Europe is more profitable and they need to find weekends for fixtures.  

The WRU don't accept the PRL negotiations over player release.  They in fact wont even recognise them as a governing body and still send their player release requests through to the RFU who pass them on.  The PRL have always wanted the WRU to pay for releases outside of the window but the WRU have never done this and instead just not selected players outside of this release period from PRL teams unless they have had clauses in their contracts (which North has been the only one).  Others have just been missing altogether as was the case with Paul James even though Bath wanted him to play against Australia as they had agreed he would be available for club duty the previous weekend.  Then the PRL stepped in for payment and the WRU released him back to Bath and selected him for the weekend Bath would have preferred his services.  A stance I fully 100% agree with as I'd rather not see the money the WRU generate head over the bridge and instead be used within Wales for the improvement of the game over here.

Not a problem, IF the regions join the Aviva it has already been stated that the LV Cup will be disbanded.  The LV Cup is 4 weeks of pool games, a week for semi finals and a week for the final.  Thats 6 weeks, right there.  Remove the 2 weeks for the play offs and you have 8 weeks.  Fitting the Welsh regions in is not any kind of a problem.  It can easily work within the current frame work of the season.

I agree with what you say over the WRU not paying the PRL though, it helps to stop Welsh players going to England.

If PRL do want the regions on board then I doubt it's for the good of the game in Wales .... which brings me back to my main objections on this. RRW are by a long way not the only stakeholders in professional rugby in Wales. If this goes through they are acting unilaterally and that gives me grave cause for concern. I seriously doubt the sustainability of this speculated arrangement and the suggestion that they will only receive the same total in TV revenues, as they do via the WRU, only serves to heighten my concerns. We will not get a lasting solution to this problem until these four clubs and the WRU put the fans and good of the game in Wales first and foremost. I really do wish that the movers and the shakers in these organisations would take a moment out of their destructive spat and interpolate the trajectory of their argument. The selfish actions of both parties is going to end up damaging the game of rugby in Wales to a high degree.

To be honest the LV cup needs dropping anyway because the welsh regions moved games to mid week fixtures to accommodate the weekends required. They should have left weekend Pro 12 games alone and if anything moved the LV games to the weekdays. I actually think the LV cup has only served as another distraction to actually concentrating on the Pro 12. It did have a purpose originally when it was worth a lot of winnings which caused them to play them as meaningful fixtures but fielding youth and 2nd string teams thereafter once the prize money went doomed the competition. Concentrating on Europe and a League is hard enough. Adding is the LV cup to the calendar was just giving an outright advantage to the Irish, Scottish and Italians to outperform us in the league.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Nope I cant see the PRL wanting to bring the RRW onto the board.  What if they need to make changes because a 16 team league isn't working or Europe is more profitable and they need to find weekends for fixtures.  

The WRU don't accept the PRL negotiations over player release.  They in fact wont even recognise them as a governing body and still send their player release requests through to the RFU who pass them on.  The PRL have always wanted the WRU to pay for releases outside of the window but the WRU have never done this and instead just not selected players outside of this release period from PRL teams unless they have had clauses in their contracts (which North has been the only one).  Others have just been missing altogether as was the case with Paul James even though Bath wanted him to play against Australia as they had agreed he would be available for club duty the previous weekend.  Then the PRL stepped in for payment and the WRU released him back to Bath and selected him for the weekend Bath would have preferred his services.  A stance I fully 100% agree with as I'd rather not see the money the WRU generate head over the bridge and instead be used within Wales for the improvement of the game over here.

Not a problem, IF the regions join the Aviva it has already been stated that the LV Cup will be disbanded.  The LV Cup is 4 weeks of pool games, a week for semi finals and a week for the final.  Thats 6 weeks, right there.  Remove the 2 weeks for the play offs and you have 8 weeks.  Fitting the Welsh regions in is not any kind of a problem.  It can easily work within the current frame work of the season.

I agree with what you say over the WRU not paying the PRL though, it helps to stop Welsh players going to England.

If PRL do want the regions on board then I doubt it's for the good of the game in Wales .... which brings me back to my main objections on this. RRW are by a long way not the only stakeholders in professional rugby in Wales. If this goes through they are acting unilaterally and that gives me grave cause for concern. I seriously doubt the sustainability of this speculated arrangement and the suggestion that they will only receive the same total in TV revenues, as they do via the WRU, only serves to heighten my concerns. We will not get a lasting solution to this problem until these four clubs and the WRU put the fans and good of the game in Wales first and foremost. I really do wish that the movers and the shakers in these organisations would take a moment out of their destructive spat and interpolate the trajectory of their argument. The selfish actions of both parties is going to end up damaging the game of rugby in Wales to a high degree.

I don't see the action of the WRU as selfish.  The WRU are governed by the 200 odd clubs that form it.  I see little the WRU would gain even if they end up with full control as its primary objective is to put the money back into the game in wales.  I cant say the same for the benefactors who control pro rugby.  Cuddy only jumped on when he thought the Ospreys would be a gold mine and jumped back off when he realized he wasn't going to see a penny on his investments.  We have seen benefactors come and go countless times.  I have faith the WRU will do what is in the best interest of welsh rugby.

One gripe I do have with the WRU though is that I think all regional season ticket holders should have been able to secure international tickets as part of the package so it forces people to start backing regions if they want to go see Wales play internationally.  That would have helped attendances greatly I believe.  That said I also realize why they cant do this as tickets are distributed through its member clubs who use these as a primary source of income to fund the community game.  So it is a thorny topic.

I agree WM out of interest Cuddy, Lyn Jones, Derwyn Jones and others involved in the Ospreys were school friends and as is usual in Wales nepotism ruled.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Nope I cant see the PRL wanting to bring the RRW onto the board.  What if they need to make changes because a 16 team league isn't working or Europe is more profitable and they need to find weekends for fixtures.  

The WRU don't accept the PRL negotiations over player release.  They in fact wont even recognise them as a governing body and still send their player release requests through to the RFU who pass them on.  The PRL have always wanted the WRU to pay for releases outside of the window but the WRU have never done this and instead just not selected players outside of this release period from PRL teams unless they have had clauses in their contracts (which North has been the only one).  Others have just been missing altogether as was the case with Paul James even though Bath wanted him to play against Australia as they had agreed he would be available for club duty the previous weekend.  Then the PRL stepped in for payment and the WRU released him back to Bath and selected him for the weekend Bath would have preferred his services.  A stance I fully 100% agree with as I'd rather not see the money the WRU generate head over the bridge and instead be used within Wales for the improvement of the game over here.

Not a problem, IF the regions join the Aviva it has already been stated that the LV Cup will be disbanded.  The LV Cup is 4 weeks of pool games, a week for semi finals and a week for the final.  Thats 6 weeks, right there.  Remove the 2 weeks for the play offs and you have 8 weeks.  Fitting the Welsh regions in is not any kind of a problem.  It can easily work within the current frame work of the season.

I agree with what you say over the WRU not paying the PRL though, it helps to stop Welsh players going to England.

If PRL do want the regions on board then I doubt it's for the good of the game in Wales .... which brings me back to my main objections on this. RRW are by a long way not the only stakeholders in professional rugby in Wales. If this goes through they are acting unilaterally and that gives me grave cause for concern. I seriously doubt the sustainability of this speculated arrangement and the suggestion that they will only receive the same total in TV revenues, as they do via the WRU, only serves to heighten my concerns. We will not get a lasting solution to this problem until these four clubs and the WRU put the fans and good of the game in Wales first and foremost. I really do wish that the movers and the shakers in these organisations would take a moment out of their destructive spat and interpolate the trajectory of their argument. The selfish actions of both parties is going to end up damaging the game of rugby in Wales to a high degree.

I don't see the action of the WRU as selfish.  The WRU are governed by the 200 odd clubs that form it.  I see little the WRU would gain even if they end up with full control as its primary objective is to put the money back into the game in wales.  I cant say the same for the benefactors who control pro rugby.  Cuddy only jumped on when he thought the Ospreys would be a gold mine and jumped back off when he realized he wasn't going to see a penny on his investments.  We have seen benefactors come and go countless times.  I have faith the WRU will do what is in the best interest of welsh rugby.

One gripe I do have with the WRU though is that I think all regional season ticket holders should have been able to secure international tickets as part of the package so it forces people to start backing regions if they want to go see Wales play internationally.  That would have helped attendances greatly I believe.  That said I also realize why they cant do this as tickets are distributed through its member clubs who use these as a primary source of income to fund the community game.  So it is a thorny topic.

I do see it as selfish I'm afraid. I think they've been drawn into a power battle over pro rugby. I don't think they've conducted themselves terribly well. By the same measure I think the regions are equally culpable. I for one am sick of it.

Trying to be pragmatic I can't see how the current regions can continue for much longer, even if they go into an anglo-welsh league. I honestly believe it's time to have central contracts and east/west teams to give exposure to those players of the highest sub-international standards of rugby. That I believe is within the financial means of Welsh rugby, offers the best chances of success in europe, of developing and sustaining the game in Wales and of supporting the national team. You know, I'd love it if Club rugby in Wales was strong and the Scarlets were competing for HEC finals again .... but it isn't, and it's not going to be. I might be proven wrong, but I doubt it. So there you have it. A lifelong Scarlets fan resigned to the fact that the end, if not yet here, is on it's way. Personally for the good of the game in Wales - just get it over with!

"I think all regional season ticket holders should have been able to secure international tickets as part of the package so it forces people to start backing regions if they want to go see Wales play internationally. That would have helped attendances greatly I believe."

Welshmushroom, this is a pretty good idea. One thing that would worry me though would be if people followed Wales and were not interested in a regional team that they would buy season tickets to a region but never bother going to the matches. It would make the region more money but I don't know if more people would attend matches. They may even resent the region for being forced to do this.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:II wouldn't argue the WRU has its failings but i'm just pointing out that the guys running the regions have made countless mistakes and this move to the Aviva could just be another one of those.  

What bothers me the most is that they are all happy to severe the ties and roll the dice.  Its just suicide.

Agreed and signing the PA in the first place was one of them.

Dave, it would be a valid point if the contract was actually better.  The reported sum is supposed to be a matching figure for what they already get from the WRU.  Sure if we had been talking about a greater sum then maybe you could sell me on how bad the WRU deal is.  However taking the same deal elsewhere isn't really assuring me they are being truthful.  I think they're banking the Aviva will bring them increased revenue from attendances again by offering them a better product.  That apparently is the myth they are trying to sell us on.  Are you really saying that teams like Worcester, London Irish,  Newcastle, Sale will really produce that much better than the attendances the bottom sides in the Pro 12 provide?  

I like calling a spade a spade and you can sugar coat it however you like if it helps you sleep at night.  Bottom line is the product the regions have been serving up has been inconsistent, soft at times & and a poor standard.  Can they take ownership of their own short comings? No.  It seems to be about everyone else and totally deflecting from themselves.  If I do a poor job at work I accept responsibility.  I don't lay blame elsewhere for my short comings.  

This myth that joining the Aviva will magically produce full stadiums is just another pot shot by them. Welsh families are finding current economic climate tough and its reflected in the choices they make.  To start assuming you will make people come to watch just by changing leagues is exactly the sort of thinking that got them into this mess in the first place.  Had they actually focused on making sure the right people where managing and coaching their teams to play with entertainment and a hard nosed edge each and every week and you might have been playing in front of full crowds.  But yet again Dave you will dodge any of the real issues I have outlined and actually pass the buck similar to how the regions in general are treating the situation.  Maybe we are just different people but I was brought up to make the best of what you have, work hard at it, be honest and accept responsibility. Every week it seems to be how the WRU are treating us badly and we are getting unfair treatment.  Does this kind of approach actually even work in the real world?  Life deals you the cards and its not always going to go your way.  However making it work even in the worst circumstances and succeeding is a real test of strength and character.  I've ranted long enough now so feel free to agree or disagree which is your prerogative.  

Not dodging anything WM, unlike Rodger who has consistently refused to negotiate for a long time now which has puzzled me. Astonishing really since the WRU commissioned PWC report recommended collaboration. It also recommended against central contracts, but there we are.
I call a spade a spade too, but get in trouble usually for doing so ie pseudo regionalism and all that jazz.
Re mythical Aviva crowds at Rodders and CAP for example. Think about it for a moment. It won't be struggling "Welsh families" who won't/will/would/could be filling those grounds. The supporters of Gloucester/Leicester/Bath will be doing that and spending their hard earned. Northampton and Saracens fans too no doubt. Not so much Sale and Newcastle obviously.

I would prefer it that the regions stay in the Rabo, but I can't see it happening now. For me the WRU has an agenda and they are sticking to it.

maestegmafia wrote:I think the WRU will re negotiate with the regions but they shouldn't.

I don't believe they will as they've refused to in the past.

Moffett told BBC Radio Wales: "In chasing the debt repayment, he's [Lewis] keeping the game poor, not only at the professional level, but also at the club level.
"And that's not going to do anybody any good.
"And I don't understand why the [Welsh] Rugby Union is actually taking that line."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19779419

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:II wouldn't argue the WRU has its failings but i'm just pointing out that the guys running the regions have made countless mistakes and this move to the Aviva could just be another one of those.  

What bothers me the most is that they are all happy to severe the ties and roll the dice.  Its just suicide.

Agreed and signing the PA in the first place was one of them.

Dave, it would be a valid point if the contract was actually better.  The reported sum is supposed to be a matching figure for what they already get from the WRU.  Sure if we had been talking about a greater sum then maybe you could sell me on how bad the WRU deal is.  However taking the same deal elsewhere isn't really assuring me they are being truthful.  I think they're banking the Aviva will bring them increased revenue from attendances again by offering them a better product.  That apparently is the myth they are trying to sell us on.  Are you really saying that teams like Worcester, London Irish,  Newcastle, Sale will really produce that much better than the attendances the bottom sides in the Pro 12 provide?  

I like calling a spade a spade and you can sugar coat it however you like if it helps you sleep at night.  Bottom line is the product the regions have been serving up has been inconsistent, soft at times & and a poor standard.  Can they take ownership of their own short comings? No.  It seems to be about everyone else and totally deflecting from themselves.  If I do a poor job at work I accept responsibility.  I don't lay blame elsewhere for my short comings.  

This myth that joining the Aviva will magically produce full stadiums is just another pot shot by them. Welsh families are finding current economic climate tough and its reflected in the choices they make.  To start assuming you will make people come to watch just by changing leagues is exactly the sort of thinking that got them into this mess in the first place.  Had they actually focused on making sure the right people where managing and coaching their teams to play with entertainment and a hard nosed edge each and every week and you might have been playing in front of full crowds.  But yet again Dave you will dodge any of the real issues I have outlined and actually pass the buck similar to how the regions in general are treating the situation.  Maybe we are just different people but I was brought up to make the best of what you have, work hard at it, be honest and accept responsibility. Every week it seems to be how the WRU are treating us badly and we are getting unfair treatment.  Does this kind of approach actually even work in the real world?  Life deals you the cards and its not always going to go your way.  However making it work even in the worst circumstances and succeeding is a real test of strength and character.  I've ranted long enough now so feel free to agree or disagree which is your prerogative.  

Not dodging anything WM, unlike Rodger who has consistently refused to negotiate for a long time now which has puzzled me. Astonishing really since the WRU commissioned PWC report recommended collaboration. It also recommended against central contracts, but there we are.
I call a spade a spade too, but get in trouble usually for doing so ie pseudo regionalism and all that jazz.
Re mythical Aviva crowds at Rodders and CAP for example. Think about it for a moment. It won't be struggling "Welsh families" who won't/will/would/could be filling those grounds. The supporters of Gloucester/Leicester/Bath will be doing that and spending their hard earned. Northampton and Saracens fans too no doubt. Not so much Sale and Newcastle obviously.

I would prefer it that the regions stay in the Rabo, but I can't see it happening now. For me the WRU has an agenda and they are sticking to it.

You only have to look at attendances in the Aviva to know traveling support is very limited. At least 50% of the teams in it have woeful attendances. You can even count Saracens into the fold there. If they cannot secure good attendances at their own grounds what makes you believe they will travel to Wales to fill ours. Sure you will get some away supporters but given that only a handful of sides are actually well supported in the Aviva those will be exceptions rather than the rule (and even then it will actually depend on if they actually see the product the welsh teams producing as a worthy reason to travel).

With regards to Roger, has he though really refused to negotiate? Unless you have inside information how can you possibly make this statement? They clearly have talked and it is unclear which parties are really refusing to make any concessions. In some case given the contracts in place with third parties there are things that the WRU cannot negotiate currently on. So both parties actually have a limit of what they can and cant agree too. What is clear is that the Regions are willing to take the next step away from the WRU. If they walk away from the table therefore, then how can you really level the blame on to Roger?

You make it sound like the WRU are the only ones with an agenda here. Lets be clear here, so do the regional benefactors - and it isn't about entertaining rugby sides either for the fans or public. As much as you believe the WRU are not concerned with the state of the game or its fans, recent actions also suggest the Chairman and RRW don't really care that much about the fans either.

I also think this Anglo/Welsh rivalry people talk about (which stems from 20 years ago) is a total myth. Sure everyone might want to put one over on the English now and again but to be honest this was an amateur era and an amateur way of thinking from fans. I don't hold English Club Rugby in the same light as I did maybe 10 years ago nor their national side for that matter. Generally you cant wind the clock back and a lot of the old rivalries mean nothing these days because the game has moved on and new rivalries have been formed with the old ones forgotten. To be honest the fact they are even considering this just goes to show how old the guys in charge at the regions are and how amateur the thinking involved is.

I do believe David Moffett has opened a huge can of worms here. He's been top dog on both sides of the fence don't forget so knows the score without actually saying it exactly.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett told BBC Radio Wales: "In chasing the debt repayment, he's [Lewis] keeping the game poor, not only at the professional level, but also at the club level.
"And that's not going to do anybody any good.
"And I don't understand why the [Welsh] Rugby Union is actually taking that line."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19779419

Oh not a Moffet quote. Firstly - he has no idea what he is talking about. He hasn't been involved with the WRU in 10 years. A lot has since happened.

Secondly, the man clearly has an axe to grind. His departure from Wales has never led to any positive statements on any news bulletin. Keep in mind Moffet is partly to blame for the poor setup of the regions in the first place. Had they done their jobs back then correctly without bias and old club politics we might be looking at a different situation today.

Also Ill add that I'm surprised in the current financial climate someone with Moffet's financial background is even preaching the WRU should keep debt high so the regions are paid more to fund pro rugby. That's crazy talk in its own right. The WRU receive a majority of its funding through the national sides success. If that success dries up so does the cash as the SRU found out over the last decade as well. Therefore if you cannot predict your income streams for the next 5-10 years why would you have debt hanging over you beyond this point without any real certainty about your ability to pay the debt back. Also its worth noting extending the repayment plan will cost the WRU millions. That's money leaving the game altogether.

The man's a loon and cant really be inserted into any kind of real debate.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:II wouldn't argue the WRU has its failings but i'm just pointing out that the guys running the regions have made countless mistakes and this move to the Aviva could just be another one of those.  

What bothers me the most is that they are all happy to severe the ties and roll the dice.  Its just suicide.

Agreed and signing the PA in the first place was one of them.

Dave, it would be a valid point if the contract was actually better.  The reported sum is supposed to be a matching figure for what they already get from the WRU.  Sure if we had been talking about a greater sum then maybe you could sell me on how bad the WRU deal is.  However taking the same deal elsewhere isn't really assuring me they are being truthful.  I think they're banking the Aviva will bring them increased revenue from attendances again by offering them a better product.  That apparently is the myth they are trying to sell us on.  Are you really saying that teams like Worcester, London Irish,  Newcastle, Sale will really produce that much better than the attendances the bottom sides in the Pro 12 provide?  

I like calling a spade a spade and you can sugar coat it however you like if it helps you sleep at night.  Bottom line is the product the regions have been serving up has been inconsistent, soft at times & and a poor standard.  Can they take ownership of their own short comings? No.  It seems to be about everyone else and totally deflecting from themselves.  If I do a poor job at work I accept responsibility.  I don't lay blame elsewhere for my short comings.  

This myth that joining the Aviva will magically produce full stadiums is just another pot shot by them. Welsh families are finding current economic climate tough and its reflected in the choices they make.  To start assuming you will make people come to watch just by changing leagues is exactly the sort of thinking that got them into this mess in the first place.  Had they actually focused on making sure the right people where managing and coaching their teams to play with entertainment and a hard nosed edge each and every week and you might have been playing in front of full crowds.  But yet again Dave you will dodge any of the real issues I have outlined and actually pass the buck similar to how the regions in general are treating the situation.  Maybe we are just different people but I was brought up to make the best of what you have, work hard at it, be honest and accept responsibility. Every week it seems to be how the WRU are treating us badly and we are getting unfair treatment.  Does this kind of approach actually even work in the real world?  Life deals you the cards and its not always going to go your way.  However making it work even in the worst circumstances and succeeding is a real test of strength and character.  I've ranted long enough now so feel free to agree or disagree which is your prerogative.  

Not dodging anything WM, unlike Rodger who has consistently refused to negotiate for a long time now which has puzzled me. Astonishing really since the WRU commissioned PWC report recommended collaboration. It also recommended against central contracts, but there we are.
I call a spade a spade too, but get in trouble usually for doing so ie pseudo regionalism and all that jazz.
Re mythical Aviva crowds at Rodders and CAP for example. Think about it for a moment. It won't be struggling "Welsh families" who won't/will/would/could be filling those grounds. The supporters of Gloucester/Leicester/Bath will be doing that and spending their hard earned. Northampton and Saracens fans too no doubt. Not so much Sale and Newcastle obviously.

I would prefer it that the regions stay in the Rabo, but I can't see it happening now. For me the WRU has an agenda and they are sticking to it.

You only have to look at attendances in the Aviva to know traveling support is very limited.  At least 50% of the teams in it have woeful attendances.  You can even count Saracens into the fold there.  If they cannot secure good attendances at their own grounds what makes you believe they will travel to Wales to fill ours.  Sure you will get some away supporters but given that only a handful of sides are actually well supported in the Aviva those will be exceptions rather than the rule (and even then it will actually depend on if they actually see the product the welsh teams producing as a worthy reason to travel).  

With regards to Roger, has he though really refused to negotiate?  Unless you have inside information how can you possibly make this statement?  They clearly have talked and it is unclear which parties are really refusing to make any concessions.  In some case given the contracts in place with third parties there are things that the WRU cannot negotiate currently on.  So both parties actually have a limit of what they can and cant agree too.  What is clear is that the Regions are willing to take the next step away from the WRU.  If they walk away from the table therefore, then how can you really level the blame on to Roger?  

You make it sound like the WRU are the only ones with an agenda here.  Lets be clear here, so do the regional benefactors - and it isn't about entertaining rugby sides either for the fans or public.  As much as you believe the WRU are not concerned with the state of the game or its fans, recent actions also suggest the Chairman and RRW don't really care that much about the fans either.  

I also think this Anglo/Welsh rivalry people talk about (which stems from 20 years ago) is a total myth.  Sure everyone might want to put one over on the English now and again but to be honest this was an amateur era and an amateur way of thinking from fans.  I don't hold English Club Rugby in the same light as I did maybe 10 years ago nor their national side for that matter.  Generally you cant wind the clock back and a lot of the old rivalries mean nothing these days because the game has moved on and new rivalries have been formed with the old ones forgotten.  To be honest the fact they are even considering this just goes to show how old the guys in charge at the regions are and how amateur the thinking involved is.

Inventing more myths again are you WM? Crumbs!
Haven't studied Aviva attendances, but I know Gloucester/Bath/Leicester is an easy trip on the train to Cardiff and their fans are willing to travel and pay for their tickets. If there is a game at Rodders or CAP, they will come.
Yes Rodger has refused to negotiate unless it's on his terms. PRGB etc.
The regional benefactors I guess would prefer a better relationship with the WRU, but under Rog that aint going to happen. Do Moffett's comments mean anything to you? Think about it and take off your region hating hat off while you're doing so. Also, see the EDF player release row in 2008. Rog didn't give a Poopie about us to be quite frank and stop inventing myths to suit your weak argument.

Welshmushroom wrote:Also Ill add that I'm surprised in the current financial climate someone with Moffet's financial background is even preaching the WRU should keep debt high so the regions are paid more to fund pro rugby.  That's crazy talk in its own right.  The WRU receive a majority of its funding through the national sides success.  If that success dries up so does the cash as the SRU found out over the last decade as well.  Therefore if you cannot predict your income streams for the next 5-10 years why would you have debt hanging over you beyond this point without any real certainty about your ability to pay the debt back.  Also its worth noting extending the repayment plan will cost the WRU millions.  That's money leaving the game altogether.  

The man's a loon and cant really be inserted into any kind of real debate.

You're annoying me now and predicting income streams is one reason why the regions won't/cannot sign the PA.....FFS!!!
and....
"Under his (David Moffett) command the WRU went from making a loss of £3.7 million in the year he joined, to making a profit of £3.6 million in the year he left."

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett told BBC Radio Wales: "In chasing the debt repayment, he's [Lewis] keeping the game poor, not only at the professional level, but also at the club level.
"And that's not going to do anybody any good.
"And I don't understand why the [Welsh] Rugby Union is actually taking that line."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19779419

Oh not a Moffet quote.  Firstly - he has no idea what he is talking about.  He hasn't been involved with the WRU in 10 years.  A lot has since happened.  

Secondly, the man clearly has an axe to grind.  His departure from Wales has never led to any positive statements on any news bulletin.  Keep in mind Moffet is partly to blame for the poor setup of the regions in the first place.  Had they done their jobs back then correctly without bias and old club politics we might be looking at a different situation today.

Are you having a laugh or what?
David Moffett was WRU chief exec in 2005 and RRW chief exec in 2009.
If anybody knows what the score is, he does.

Curious to understand if folk believe new WRU sides will be better supported than the current Regions ? Strikes me that given there will be no pretence and that the priority will be the Test team at the expense of domestic and any euro competition and whether fans will buy into that.

The WRU may then face a similar scenario to the current Regions albeit a few further years down the track.

I have always felt that the oz cricket model that has been copied in Rugby has been a blight on the game, as a top down structure that is generally unaccountable with reduced access for fans and some senior players attempting to hold Unions to ransom.

RecWatcher -: To be honest the new regions will have less of a following. From what we have been led to believe they will be in Ponty (East), Neath (West) and the RGC1404 (North). So straight way, unless you are a fan of Ponty, Neath or RGC1404, people will be screaming "they are super-clubs not regions". Add to that the possibility of the current regional sides still existing, in one way or another in the Jeff, meaning that their fans are quite likely to stay loyal to them and unlikely to jump ship to the new regions. Also, going by personal believe, Neath is not West Wales, but actually central south, so the regions are not the geographic or historic regions people have been preying for.

In all reality, new WRU financed and controlled regions may well work, but that is providing we actually give them a chance, after all these things take time to grow and develop, and personally I think we are seeing those signs with the regions now, academies are producing the goods, and contrary to the popular belief, support and interest in the regions (not yet turned into attendance) is growing. IF we are going to throw all this away in order to start from scratch again, then we must get some sort of agreement that these new regions, super-clubs, mini-unions, get guarantied the chance to grow before they get axed.

Ponty isn't really East either but least the 'valleys rugby' brigade would be happy.

Geographically I guess RGC would be the only proper Region as like SS said Neath isn't West.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:RecWatcher -: To be honest the new regions will have less of a following.  From what we have been led to believe they will be in Ponty (East), Neath (West) and the RGC1404 (North).  So straight way, unless you are a fan of Ponty, Neath or RGC1404, people will be screaming "they are super-clubs not regions".

Which is exactly what exists know - we have super-clubs
Newport, Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea who other Welsh teams resent

I'll be honest, it'll be painful watching a Ponty region and a North Wales one making the step up. That's what troubles me about it. Probably the key point the drum bangers that push for Valleys Rugby keep missing. They don't compete with the likes of Leinster A really in the B + I cup, so it would be a big ask for them to step up, particularly the difference in conditioning etc.

Even if they did get to work off the same budget as the current regions, I don't see how they could assemble a squad to be competitive. It's hard work, particularly when a player of any note does command quite a bit of bunse. That's why I find it a bit pie in the sky the Valleys proposal and why I think that people who are currently salivating at the prospect of getting an alleged opportunity are massively missing the point.

geoff999rugby wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:RecWatcher -: To be honest the new regions will have less of a following.  From what we have been led to believe they will be in Ponty (East), Neath (West) and the RGC1404 (North).  So straight way, unless you are a fan of Ponty, Neath or RGC1404, people will be screaming "they are super-clubs not regions".

Which is exactly what exists know  - we have super-clubs
Newport, Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea who other Welsh teams resent

In your uninformed opinion yes. For a start, I wouldn't support a Newport superclub.

Risca Rev wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:RecWatcher -: To be honest the new regions will have less of a following.  From what we have been led to believe they will be in Ponty (East), Neath (West) and the RGC1404 (North).  So straight way, unless you are a fan of Ponty, Neath or RGC1404, people will be screaming "they are super-clubs not regions".

Which is exactly what exists know  - we have super-clubs
Newport, Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea who other Welsh teams resent

In your uninformed opinion yes. For a start, I wouldn't support a Newport superclub.

Neither would I Rev.

geoff999rugby wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:RecWatcher -: To be honest the new regions will have less of a following.  From what we have been led to believe they will be in Ponty (East), Neath (West) and the RGC1404 (North).  So straight way, unless you are a fan of Ponty, Neath or RGC1404, people will be screaming "they are super-clubs not regions".

Which is exactly what exists know  - we have super-clubs
Newport, Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea who other Welsh teams resent

Geoff, please don't take this the wrong way.  But your talking absolute tripe.
 
If you had any knowledge of the geography of Wales, the population centres, or the history of the nation, and not just a few opinions based on what town a side is based in, then you would appreciate how balls achingly annoying it is to listen to this complete and utter dross being spouted.
 
The Regions as stands are (please other fans feel free to add to this, I will just flesh out the Scarlets):
 
Scarlets.  
 
The Scarlets are based in Llanelli. Llanelli is the county town of Carmarthenshire, and the largest population centre in Carmarthenshire.  And back in the day when Wales had 8 counties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales), Llanelli was the biggest town in Dyfed.  Dyfed is now Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Ceridigion,  and back then was the largest of all the 8 Counties in Wales, and also the furthest west.  Back when regionalism was being brought about the people of Dyfed fought hard to ensure that they would have a region, as if Llanelli and Swansea had merged as planned the side would have A) gone bust due to the debts of Swansea RFC and Llanelli RFC and B) been played based in Swansea as it is the larger population centre (but technically not in West Wales).
 
Also the Scarlets have a good working relationship with the three premiership feeder teams.  Carmarthen Quins, Llandovery and Llanelli are all doing well in the Welsh Principality, all in the top 4 I believe.  And in the British and Irish Cup the three feeder teams pool resources, and players from all three teams come together in what is essencially Scarlets A (officially it is Llanelli entered as they won the knock out competition to qualify.  However if Quins had won they still would pool resources and call themselves Scarlets A, but officially be Carmarthen Quins)
 
Ospreys
 
The Ospreys are based in Swansea.  Swansea is the only city in the Mid or West Glamorgan, the geographic region that they represent, and Swansea is also the largest population centre there too.  Arguably the Ospreys region and the Blues region (The blues being south Glamorgan) could have been one region Glamorgan.

Gwent Dragons
 
Gwent Dragons are based in Newport, which is the only city in Gwent, and the largest population centre.  Again it is a real geographic region.

Cardiff Blues
 
A stand alone team, to represent the capital city.  Since the Warriors folded due to lack of support, the Cardiff Blues have had to adopt Pontypridd and the surrounding areas.  These are the only side that could have been classed as a super club.

Risca Rev wrote:I'll be honest, it'll be painful watching a Ponty region and a North Wales one making the step up. That's what troubles me about it. Probably the key point the drum bangers that push for Valleys Rugby keep missing. They don't compete with the likes of Leinster A really in the B + I cup, so it would be a big ask for them to step up, particularly the difference in conditioning etc.

Even if they did get to work off the same budget as the current regions, I don't see how they could assemble a squad to be competitive. It's hard work, particularly when a player of any note does command quite a bit of bunse. That's why I find it a bit pie in the sky the Valleys proposal and why I think that people who are currently salivating at the prospect of getting an alleged opportunity are massively missing the point.

Look at where these teams are sitting in leagues right now

Ponty 1st (of 12)in Welsh Prem (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/welsh-premiership/table)
Neath 10th (of 12) in Welsh Prem (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/welsh-premiership/table)
RGC1404 5th (of 14) in Welsh Championship (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/welsh-championship/table)

With the exception of Ponty, I am really frightened that Zebre will put cricket scores on them (and I expect Ponty to lose to Zebre).

Sorry guys you have super clubs who play little more than lip service to their regions.
Their has been a failure for club supporters to follow their designated regions other than the supporters
of the designated location.

Just go and talk to the supports of Neath, Bridgend, Aberavon, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Pontypridd and see what they think.

How much would it hurt to play some games in other locations in the regions?
Munster have a 2 centre format and it works.

This is why unilateral action is going to be a disaster. We can't have regions based on clubs. It's bad enough as it is without some knee-jerk reaction and basing on Neath & Ponty. Bad enough if RRW join PRL with no union support. As for Hadley's suggestion on the Beeb ...   

Why can't both parties see sense! The solution will come when all the stakeholders in Welsh rugby come together to thrash out an agreement. That means RRW, WRU hierarchy, Fans and clubs (the rest of them anyway) getting together and working it out.

I'm just guessing about the new regions that the WRU may/may not be setting up.

RCG1404 is all fine

For East Wales, I guess that it will not be another promoted club like Neath, it will have a new name a new strip be owned by the WRU and not by any clubs and will play for the first season out of the Gnoll, as there are no other alternatives in East Wales suitable. WRU prob plan to dissolve Scarlets/Ospreys (hence them wanting to move to Jeff), and hope that Swansea/Llanelli will accept playing in the Welsh Prem and being part of the East Wales region with Neath, Carmarthen Quins RFC etc,

After the first season at the Gnoll, the future of Ospreys and Scarlets will have been sorted (either Jeff through courts or Welsh Prem) and it will be know if the East Wales team can play games at their grounds instead of just The Gnoll.

Same to happen West Wales with Sardis road being used in first season, after that Cardiff Arms Park and Rodney Parade would be used (if they can).

I think that Neath and Ponty are just being mentioned as that is where each region will be based in the first year, as the biggest grounds in East/West Wales not currently used by the regions. The new teams will have nothing more to do with Ponty/Neath than they will Cardiff/Llaneli, just using their ground for now.

The big questions for me are:

1) If current regions are dissolved for new WRU owned regions, would fans of the current regions support the new team, or be bitter? would the disenfranchised fans support the new regions? Would being successful in Europe bring people round?

2) If the current regions do manage to join the Jeff, will the new regions get much support? What will happen if they meet in Europe, if the regions revert to their club names, will Swansea, Llanelli, Newport and Cardiff RFC remain in the Welsh perm?

3) Are the WRU prepared to support the new regions to a greater level than the IRFU currently do the Provinces. Would have to be greater as the Provinces already have good attendances, sponsorship deals etc and have made names for themselves, the WRU would have to support the new regions to a greater level to catch up, and then possible reduce to same level as IRFU?

[quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"]Tt. As for Hadley's suggestion on the Beeb ...   

Why can't both parties see sense! The solution will come when all the stakeholders in Welsh rugby come together to thrash out an agreement. That means RRW, WRU hierarchy, Fans and clubs (the rest of them anyway) getting together and working it out.[/quote]


______________

Just read it on the BBC his idea is absolutely crazy

Kingshu wrote:I'm just guessing about the new regions that the WRU may/may not be setting up.

RCG1404 is all fine

For East Wales, I guess that it will not be another promoted club like Neath, it will have a new name a new strip be owned by the WRU and not by any clubs and will play for the first season out of the Gnoll, as there are no other alternatives in East Wales suitable.  WRU prob plan to dissolve Scarlets/Ospreys (hence them wanting to move to Jeff), and hope that Swansea/Llanelli will accept playing in the Welsh Prem and being part of the East Wales region with Neath, Carmarthen Quins RFC etc,

After the first season at the Gnoll, the future of Ospreys and Scarlets will have been sorted (either Jeff through courts or Welsh Prem) and it will be know if the East Wales team can play games at their grounds instead of just The Gnoll.

Same to happen West Wales with Sardis road being used in first season, after that Cardiff Arms Park and Rodney Parade would be used (if they can).

I think that Neath and Ponty are just being mentioned as that is where each region will be based in the first year, as the biggest grounds in East/West Wales not currently used by the regions. The new teams will have nothing more to do with Ponty/Neath than they will Cardiff/Llaneli, just using their ground for now.

The big questions for me are:

1) If current regions are dissolved for new WRU owned regions, would fans of the current regions support the new team, or be bitter? would the disenfranchised fans support the new regions? Would being successful in Europe bring people round?

2) If the current regions do manage to join the Jeff, will the new regions get much support? What will happen if they meet in Europe, if the regions revert to their club names, will Swansea, Llanelli, Newport and Cardiff RFC remain in the Welsh perm?

3) Are the WRU prepared to support the new regions to a greater level than the IRFU currently do the Provinces. Would have to be greater as the Provinces already have good attendances, sponsorship deals etc and have made names for themselves, the WRU would have to support the new regions to a greater level to catch up, and then possible reduce to same level as IRFU?

1. Big mixed bag with a lot of bitterness going on

2. Damn good question, they might end up being expelled from the WRU - what then?

3. Another reason why whatever solution we are presented with going forward needs to be negotiated and agreed on by everyone!

This is such a big mess that if it isn't put right now, the damage will rumble on for years to come. This is a critical point in Welsh Rugby.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sorry guys you have super clubs who play little more than lip service to their regions.
Their has been a failure for club supporters to  follow their designated regions other than the supporters
of the designated location.

Just go and talk to the supports of Neath, Bridgend, Aberavon, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Pontypridd and see what they think.

How much would it hurt to play some games in other locations in the regions?
Munster have a 2 centre format and it works.

I'm a supporter from Aberavon, I've fully bought into the Ospreys and feel they represent me well. The Ospreys have played games in Bridgend and I have been to watch them play in Aberavon, they now have made up with Neath and are allowed access to their ground too.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sorry guys you have super clubs who play little more than lip service to their regions.
Their has been a failure for club supporters to  follow their designated regions other than the supporters
of the designated location.

Just go and talk to the supports of Neath, Bridgend, Aberavon, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Pontypridd and see what they think.

How much would it hurt to play some games in other locations in the regions?
Munster have a 2 centre format and it works.

What about talking to fans of Carmarthen Quins, Llandovery, Cross Keys and Bedwas? Do they have any issues with their regions? Nothing is so black and white like you make out.

The regions, with supposedly failing support, are getting more spectators through the turnstyles than the pre-regional clubs did. So it would seem that people are turning up to support their regions from places around the region, and not just from the host town/city.

Like I said, going purely on west wales (as that is where I life), interest and support of the regions (Scarlets in particular seeing as it is our region) is far greater now than any interest in the old club game.

Finally, yes in an ideal world it would be great to spread the games around the region. But it is not realistically practical. Again using the Scarlets as an example, the other grounds in the region are just not up to spec. They make the Sportsground in Connacht look like a world class facility.

Personally, I think that just having 3 potential teams, playing in 3 different leagues, in each town is insufficient. We should be aiming much bigger and higher.

Cardiff could have at least 6. Llanelli, which has always been the regional team of the west, should be in double figures, teams wise.

Welsh rugby fans are tired of the 'Irish model' and the 'SANZAR structure' blah de blah. We want the Welsh Way. Loads of teams and plenty of bickering. Who cares if Roger is giving all the money to the bank - get Barclays to sponsor another new league with it! S4C will pay big bucks for the rights. Well, bucks anyway.

We already have enough players in France to enter an exiles team in their league. Paris Welsh - make it happen.

The potential is massive. No more doom and gloom. Aviva Forever! (and Rabo and Welsh Prem).

Scarlet,  A pal of mine is from Pontadawe and he would laugh at the suggestion that Neath is West Wales. The credibility would be shot before it got started. I would have big misgivings about Unions starting clubs from scratch.

For the record I don't think the RRW should join the AP either,  for the purely selfish reasons that the RFU/PRL should be focusing on raising standards in the championship to achieve a second professional league, through competition,
thus creating more access and interest.

Kingshu wrote:I'm just guessing about the new regions that the WRU may/may not be setting up.

RCG1404 is all fine

For East Wales, I guess that it will not be another promoted club like Neath, it will have a new name a new strip be owned by the WRU and not by any clubs and will play for the first season out of the Gnoll, as there are no other alternatives in East Wales suitable.  WRU prob plan to dissolve Scarlets/Ospreys (hence them wanting to move to Jeff), and hope that Swansea/Llanelli will accept playing in the Welsh Prem and being part of the East Wales region with Neath, Carmarthen Quins RFC etc,

After the first season at the Gnoll, the future of Ospreys and Scarlets will have been sorted (either Jeff through courts or Welsh Prem) and it will be know if the East Wales team can play games at their grounds instead of just The Gnoll.

Same to happen West Wales with Sardis road being used in first season, after that Cardiff Arms Park and Rodney Parade would be used (if they can).

I think that Neath and Ponty are just being mentioned as that is where each region will be based in the first year, as the biggest grounds in East/West Wales not currently used by the regions. The new teams will have nothing more to do with Ponty/Neath than they will Cardiff/Llaneli, just using their ground for now.

The big questions for me are:

1) If current regions are dissolved for new WRU owned regions, would fans of the current regions support the new team, or be bitter? would the disenfranchised fans support the new regions? Would being successful in Europe bring people round?

2) If the current regions do manage to join the Jeff, will the new regions get much support? What will happen if they meet in Europe, if the regions revert to their club names, will Swansea, Llanelli, Newport and Cardiff RFC remain in the Welsh perm?

3) Are the WRU prepared to support the new regions to a greater level than the IRFU currently do the Provinces. Would have to be greater as the Provinces already have good attendances, sponsorship deals etc and have made names for themselves, the WRU would have to support the new regions to a greater level to catch up, and then possible reduce to same level as IRFU?

Just knit picking, but you have your east and west back to front.

1) I would be willing to support a West Wales side, if it were truly a West Wales side. I have no intention of supporting a West Wales side if it is based outside of West Wales, the same as I would have no intention of supporting Wales if we were to play all of our internationals in Bristol. I appreciate that there will be people who think that is petty, but it really makes a difference. Pre-regionalism I followed Llanelli RFC as they were the nearest top flight team, and since regionalism I have supported the Scarlets because they were my team, representing my area. And if things pan out with Llanelli Scarlets in the Aviva, and West Wales (in NEATH arrggghhh geographically wrong!) then I stay with the Scarlets in the Aviva and not even take a passing interest in West Wales. IF West Wales were in West Wales and the Scarlets were in the Aviva, I would stay with the Scarlets and attempt to attend West Wales matches when possible.

2) It looks like the teams will need to become clubs again in order to jump ship. But I have a feeling that they could well end ups as Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Llanelli Scarlets and Swansea Ospreys. After all there are a fair few Jeff sides that are town name and then nickname (London Wasps, Leicester Tiger, Newcastle Falcons, London Harlequins?, Sale Sharks , Worcester Warriors etc)

3) Based on the stuff the union say about the regions and funding etc, I would assume the money going to the new setup would be the same. Most likely east and west would end up getting 50% (the extra 50% being the money the fourth region would have got spilt between these two) more than the current regions do, and they will be seen as the flag ship sides. I see the North getting the same funding as the regions do now and being termed a development side.

Casartelli wrote:Personally, I think that just having 3 potential teams, playing in 3 different leagues, in each town is insufficient.  We should be aiming much bigger and higher.

Cardiff could have at least 6.  Llanelli, which has always been the regional team of the west, should be in double figures, teams wise.

Welsh rugby fans are tired of the 'Irish model' and the 'SANZAR structure' blah de blah.  We want the Welsh Way.  Loads of teams and plenty of bickering.  Who cares if Roger is giving all the money to the bank - get Barclays to sponsor another new league with it!  S4C will pay big bucks for the rights.  Well, bucks anyway.

We already have enough players in France to enter an exiles team in their league.  Paris Welsh - make it happen.

The potential is massive.  No more doom and gloom.  Aviva Forever!  (and Rabo and Welsh Prem).

Welsh rugby fans have never experienced the Irish/SANZAR model   

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sorry guys you have super clubs who play little more than lip service to their regions.
Their has been a failure for club supporters to  follow their designated regions other than the supporters
of the designated location.

Just go and talk to the supports of Neath, Bridgend, Aberavon, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Pontypridd and see what they think.

How much would it hurt to play some games in other locations in the regions?
Munster have a 2 centre format and it works.

You have absolutely no idea.

There's a lot more to moving games round a region. For a start, access which isn't so great around a lot of Wales in comparison to say Newport being easily accessed by car, rail and bus. Another big thing is corporate and hospitality. Show me a ground which can realistically compete with Rodney Parade's facilities. Now we could take a loss of revenue etc and move a game or two round the region, but what will it achieve? Also, on top of this, we are already giving up our stadium for a game with this judgement day farce. Plus, why take the players away from what they know? Home advantage is huge.

You cite Munster as proof of your idea, but it's a poor one. They're the only team that do it in the league and it's a right piddle about when you're waiting to book tickets and they're deciding where a game is to be hosted.

Just out of interest have the WRU actually said they may put regions in Neath and Pontypridd or is this just speculation? If they have can anyone post a link to it please

Cheers

What are the Italian and Romanian domestic leagues like? Can we get a team in them?

Happy new Year Risca - maybe less of the insults should be your New Years resolution.

Just because a poster picks up on a particular point does not mean the poster doesn't mean they are not aware of the wider picture.
In these uncertain times speculation and throwing around ideas should be meat and drink to boards like this.
If you disagree you don't have to come out with the rude jibe.

For the record: One of my best mates is a Blues fan and I also know some Neath supporters so I get an opinion from both sides of the Regions debate, in Wales, from Welshmen.