What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

What I don't like is that the 5 Nations are throwing this ERC idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in England. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in England.

Think the ERC thing was already up an running. Also think it was PRL that spat the dummy out... no not McCafferty....yet   

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

What I don't like is that the 5 Nations are throwing this ERC idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in England. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in England.

Really? The PRL have been saying they don't want to play in ERC competitions for a while now. If they change that position, brilliant. They are the ones that left and they are the ones who can come back.

I realise issues overlap, but this is a thread dedicated to us moaning Welsh and our civil war.

Courtesy of "Friends of Newport Rugby" re meeting with the WRU......

Joint Supporters' Group Statement 19/12/13

Further to the Joint Supporters Group meeting we have collated the minutes which have been seen by those present. A copy in full will be issued to members of the four supporters organisations later tonight.
We can confirm that as a group we were disappointed with the lack of alternative solutions that were proposed to the critical issues that face Welsh rugby and the unwavering reliance on the current business model.
This model is based on a 10-year Participation Agreement with the commitment to participate in a proposed Five Nations European Cup and the existing PRO12 League, without knowing clear structure or funding which we’d consider to be unreasonably rigid in rapidly-changing environment.
Whilst we appreciate that some additional benefits have been made available we’d consider these at the best to be a short term fixes and the understanding of the challenges the regions face to be competitive and businesses and rugby teams aren’t being fully appreciated.
We were disappointed to be informed that the WRU felt it was not an option to explore an Anglo Welsh league due to existing contractual arrangements given the public excitement in Wales from regional rugby supporters.
Whilst we appreciated the seniority of the attendees from the WRU who clearly wanted to demonstrate that they were willing to listen to us, we also felt surprised at the lack of empathy shown to supporters who are facing the demise of professional rugby and the regions they have invested so much time, money and emotion in over the past decade.
The WRU could give no assurances over the future of our game and said that they had no 'plan B' in place should the regions not extend their involvement in the PA. We urged the WRU to continue to seek the view and input of those who support regional and club rugby and they committed to another meeting in the New Year.
No solution to the ongoing 'player drain' was offered, and it was stated that 'Gatlands Law' would not be instigated until the current situation has been resolved and with strict understanding and assurances that the players would be fairly treated by their regions.
As supporters this is completely unacceptable as we continue to see the players that have grown through the club and regional systems depart for France and England.
It is our strong view that our children deserve to see their idols play locally especially when some of these players have been public in their desire to stay in Wales.
The WRU's pride and passion for Team Wales was clear to see and we took the opportunity to congratulate Warren Gatland on his achievements but questioned the validity of a 4th Autumn International which restricted the preparation for our regions' European games which we were informed was due to funding required by the regions.
There are questions and further discussions to be had with our respective Regional Management to clarify some issues and information as a result of the meeting and we are grateful to the Welsh Rugby Union for bringing these matters to our attention. We have requested a meeting as soon as possible.
We look forward to having constructive ongoing dialogue with all parties concerned. We will also continue to listen to our members and supporters and represent them and their views to the best of our ability.

FoNR

#UniteAndFight

http://www.fonr.co.uk/news/news.php?id=000447

HammerofThunor wrote:The PA runs out at the end of the season. It just needs to be renewed this year.

If that is the case and I think it is, what will happen if the PA is not renewed this year?

rosbif wrote:As an observer from the outside
" I think that Wales is very much like England in that it's sport has developed very much along village, town and city lines. Invented areas or regions or boundary lines means little to a sports fan in Wales."

Very true and if (a very big if) the 4 current "phoney confections" do join up with the English, then a proposed WRU team playing out of Sardis should be called Pontypridd.

and Neath

Allty wrote:and Neath

Agreed.
Proper Neef though. Like they used to be.

Notch wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

What I don't like is that the 5 Nations are throwing this ERC idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in England. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in England.

Really? The PRL have been saying they don't want to play in ERC competitions for a while now. If they change that position, brilliant. They are the ones that left and they are the ones who can come back.

and there's the very definition of not giving a toss.

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

I have a sneaky suspicion that two exiles are coming home next season. Not a big deal per sé, but if they do happen, I wonder if they'll get as much hype as players leaving Wales (ie reversing the trend).

which two Risca Rev ?

Like I say, not big names anymore (as such). Depending on where they go, they're good signings for a couple of the regions. I wouldn't be overly surprised if a few come back in the summer though. Not the current internationals maybe, but maybe a few hoping to make a mark and a couple of fringe Welsh squad members.

I think it'll be an interesting summer, especially when we find out what competitions we are in next season. I think a few more current Welsh players (as mentioned on here) will sign new deals for their regions too.

Byrne was rumoured at one point to be coming back

Yes, but even those apparently in the know can only go as far as linking between two regions (Blues and Dragons). Be interesting to see what happens with him for one.

I liked Kingsley's quote of no smoke without fire.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The PA runs out at the end of the season. It just needs to be renewed this year.

If that is the case and I think it is, what will happen if the PA is not renewed this year?

It was a self imposed time limit I think. So pretty much anything could happen I suppose.

Munchkin wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:What I don't like is that the PRL and RRW are throwing this idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in the other nations.

What I don't like is that the 5 Nations are throwing this ERC idea around without any mention or care for the huge impact it would have on rugby in England. They don't even mention this. No warning of transition or anything helpful to say. At best they don't give a toss, which is what we've come to expect. At worst they quite like the idea of damaging rugby in England.

Think the ERC thing was already up an running. Also think it was PRL that spat the dummy out... no not McCafferty....yet   

Actually they offered everyone to join in a non ERC based European competition run by the clubs not the unions. Funnily enough those clubs provinces run by the Unions have remained very silent on the matter. Funnily enough those clubs not directly run by the Unions have been in favour, except the French who happen to run the ERC and just got a huge payoff to stick with the status quo.


The simple fact is theres no right answer here. The club game in Wales is not sustainable even with the unbalanced shares of current European money and support from WRU revenues. Losing a meaningful Anglo Welsh cup was a huge blow to them.

Maybe if the Irish are so concerned about the game in Scotland and Wales they should look at an even split of gate receipts from a central pool? Didnt think that would happen.

Whilst many of us do enjoy a good gloat watching the Welsh tear themselves apart we do want a strong competitive Europe at both club and country level. The 6 nations is a great competition with close games and intense rivalries, the European cup should be the same although for me its never quite managed to reach the same level.
Id love to see the Welsh sort their house out and get clubs/regions/principlalities or whatever capable of competing on the european stage again. The English clubs do too, its in their interest as well. Maximising the total revenue and audience means more to split between the participants.
Fans of the game want to see competitive rugby between the best players between teams that mean something and where the winners can be identified before the competition has already started.

It just appears theres a hell of a lot of power politics at all levels both in Wales and outside it mucking with that.
This as has already been pointed out is only the surfacing of whats been going on for years, partly forced out into the open by the BT carrot but really down to the same problem the RFU had with its clubs .. at the time of professionalism they simply didnt have the money to take them on themselves and forced them to look after themselves. As a result many went to the wall and they now see themselves as independent from the unions and as businesses.

Hopefully something will emerge from this chaos that vaguely resembles a workable and financially viable club system that is not just run as a subordinate for the international game. It does appear theres plenty of people in Wales beyond the plastic daffodil crowd who get that too, and want a competitive club thats allowed to flourish.

Has anyone else read a copy of the minutes from the meeting between the WRU and the Supporters Clubs?

Here are the minutes, from Scarlet Fever forum


Attendees:
Jon Sheppard and Joe Crocker from FoNR
Annette Thomas and Mike Phippen from OSC
Dorian Davies, Barrie Jones and Neil Bathgate from CRYS 16
Sarah Hopkins, Catherine Smart and Sue Barter from CBSC
Roger Lewis, David Pickering, Warren Gatland and Steve Phillips from WRU

Minutes:

All present introduced themselves to each other.
RL Welcomed everyone to the Millennium Stadium, and thanked them all for coming.
RL said that he could not disclose any information that he would deem confidential and that the previous request for a meeting had been declined as the WRU felt it inappropriate as discussions were on-going at that time.

NB said that the group felt now was the time to discuss the situation with the Regions and the WRU as we are now six months further down the line since the original meeting request.

RL stated that it is rugby that comes first not vested "business". interests.

SH thanked the WRU representatives for the meeting us this evening and explained that she had been asked to lead the meeting from the supporters perspective, then read an introductory statement prepared by the supporters which would be followed by some key questions and read as follows:


Cardiff Blues Supporters’ Club CRYS 16 Friends of Newport Rugby Ospreys Supporters’ Club


The reason we requested a meeting earlier this year was because the crossroads we currently find ourselves at has been inevitable for some time and we wanted to air supporters views to the Union whilst there was still time for them to be considered but what’s happened has happened, and we need to move forward. and whilst late in the day, we are pleased to be able to represent the views of those who support regional, club and mini rugby week in week out in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>.

We assume you have seen our joint statement as that is what prompted the meeting this evening so we don’t propose to read through that but needless to say – we are extremely concerned that the WRU is not acting in the best interests of the game as is often stated. We accept that Team <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> has been successful over recent years, but that is just one aspect of the game in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>. We strongly feel that the time has come to make decisions that will protect the future of the game in our country or the current Welsh Rugby Union regime will forever be known as those that to all intents and purposes signed the death warrant of professional rugby in Wales.

We want to see a sustainable, professional Regional Structure, working with and developing players for teamTeam <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>.. and retaining our best players within our regions.

We are investors in the game that invest more than money – we invest considerable time in supporting our teams and the fact that you have threatened to take them away from us if they ‘don’t play ball’ is completely unacceptable to us. This is our leisure time, our family time that you are impacting ….

She went on to say that we are mandated as a group to represent our members and a supporter group of 15,000 Season Ticket Holders and many more match day attendees.

RL said that he absolutely refuted the comments that (a) the WRU are not acting in the best interests of the game stating "throughout the whole history of rugby we have acted in its best interest.....it has been our mantra"." and (b) signed the death warrant of professional rugby in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>.








RL said that he has not seen the statement which was referred to and SH explained that it was released to members and other supporters at the end of the previous week. RL asked if it has been sent directly to the WRU and she said that it had not, but that she had received a phone call from the WRU press team that day and had assumed that this was why the meeting with RL had been called,.; RL reconfirmed that he had not seen the statement.

RL asked whether the supporters groups had met with Regional Chairmen and Chief Executives. All confirmed that there is regular contact.

RL explained that the Regions have until 31/12/13 to "elect to continue or not" with the Participation Agreement. He stated that the Regions had signed in effect a 10 year contract in 2009 and that there was a break clause in at the end of 2013 (after the 1st 5 Years) solely for the option of the Regions and they alone could elect to continue with the PA from 1 July 2014 or not.
SP advised that the WRU’s business plan was, and always has been, based on the 10 year Participation Agreement signed in 2009 and changing the terms wasn’t an option.


In response to why the star players are leaving Wales, it was stated that the WRU had offered to sign the players that were coming out of contract whilst there was uncertainty regarding the European competitions that would be played in, then assign them back to the relevant Regions (with no conditions attached), but the Regions had refused this.
RL explained the make up and constitution of the WRU, referencing 320 member clubs and our 40,000 playing members etc, but SH confirmed that supporters were already aware of this. These 320 clubs who ultimately control all of Welsh rugby, and make up the WRU
RL said also that the Regions had not always sent representatives to WRU AGMs and other meetings with the Clubs.
The regions have had representation in the Rabo Direct League and on the ERC Committee for many years, up to Stuart Gallacher’s recent resignation last week and that they really still should have a representative there.
NB questioned whether if RL felt there was real value in them attending the WRU AGMs and meetings and if RL had directly communicated this to them and RL advised that he felt there was value in the Regions attending the meeting but he hadn’t directly communicated this to them as they are aware of the meetings and that they are able to attend. The WRU had written to the Regions and all Member clubs inviting them to the AGM, as they have done every year.
RL went on to say that the latest RRW statement (regarding, amongst others, the TV revenues) was, at a minimum, misleading. and contained confidential information which should not have been disclosed. He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to There were further meetings later this week to discuss ERC payments but that the European rugby competitions. The existing agreements had been agreed to by the Regions, they have never previously raised the points set out in their statement at an ERC Board meeting and it wasn’t as simple as them just walking away .

In response to the information contained in the RRW statement, when asked further about the alleged unequal distribution of funds which was in favour of Scotland and Italy on a per team basis in Europe – RL confirmed that the funding received was not equal and that the WRU were aware of this issue and that the Regions had always accepted and agreed to them.
However, neither was it favourable to the English and French clubs in Europe as it applied to <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> on the same basis but it was very much in favour of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> in the Rabo League.

SH asked RL to clarify what the Regions were being asked to participate in under the Participation Agreement and he stated that it was (as currently stood) an European competition which was supported by the five participating nations and the Rabo League, which he felt offered the financial stability that the regions were looking for. He said that further discussions were taking place on 20th December where they hoped that the English clubs would reconsider and rejoin the competition, making it the six nations again.
NB asked whether the WRU would consider extending the deadline for the PA until the regions knew exactly what the situation was in Europe and RL confirmed they were hopeful that this would be resolved next week but ultimately as there is a commitment from 5 unions to provide teams for the competition there wouldn’t be an option to extend the deadline for the PA until a more detailed make up of the teams competing is known.







As to WRU income, BJ asked why there was seemingly no prospect of income growing over the coming years with the PA being only index linked and it was stated that this was unknown. SP replied that the WRU income had grown significantly over the last six years which had allowed the player release monies in 2008 to be increased from £3.6m to £6.6m today; as to further similar growth, it was stated that this was unlikely at the present time.
AT referred to the TV deal that had been announced by the Aviva Premiership with BT Sport and stated that it would seem financially beneficial to join this league.

SH asked whether or not the WRU were supportive of the establishment of an Anglo Welsh league. WG answered saying that personally he honestly felt it would be good for him (although selfishly) in respect of players and exposure to a superior level of games however he is not sure what the "long term" effect would be in respect of the impact on others in the six countries in terms of a downward spiral. SP highlighted that this supposed participation had only come about because the English clubs had chosen to exclude themselves from Europe from next year
RL explained that he had proposed a British and Irish league last year to PRL alongside a deal with BT but this was rejected by PRL. SP said that the impact of the withdrawal of the English Clubs from the ERC had left them with six weekends a season to fill and therefore they suddenly want Welsh involvement.

JS asked why the WRU would not support the Regions in considering joining the Aviva, if the Regions believed it financially beneficial, particularly as the WRU are always pressing the Regions to generate more income for themselves. RL said that this was due to the difficulty in breaking existing contractual commitments agreed by all parties, including the Regions.

DD asked why the WRU had not taken up an offer to be part of the discussions around the establishment of an Anglo Welsh League and RL said he had not been asked to attend such a meeting
SH asked whether the WRU were therefore not supportive of an Anglo Welsh League to which RL stated that this was a point for the Regions to consider the serious implications of breaking the existing contracts.

NB asked if the Regions could negotiate themselves out of their current obligations with the Union’s assistance whether the Union would support a move towards an Anglo Welsh league and RL advised that it was too hypothetical a question to answer.

NB asked what the contingency plan was for the WRU if the Regions did not sign the PA as they needed professional teams to fulfil their contractual obligations to competitions, RL stated that there had been no public discussions about this, although SP acknowledged that they needed to have these discussions and consider their options in the New Year should the Regions not choose to sign.


DD asked about the reports of the WRU telling players not to sign new contracts with the Regions. WG said that this was a ‘complete and utter lie’ and that legal advice had been sought as this was defamatory. RL, DP and SP fully supported WG’s statement. WG went on to say that he had personally encouraged the six players linked to the additional £1m to sign for their Regions and that he was unhappy that some had chosen to go elsewhere. He stated that he understood that Adam Jones has not been offered a contract by the Ospreys.

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities. He felt that the additional £1m could be spent on more quality coaches and not individual players.

NB stated in his opinion that even if the £1m came to fruition it would effectively be a drop in the ocean and have little effect on the player drain to France and England as they will continue to pull ahead leaving the Regions facing an even greater battle for survival,. RL said that there was a lot the Regions could do to help themselves to make themselves more competitive and made reference to some of the comments in the PWC report. SP added that the £1m could not be considered in isolation but only in the context of the existing £16m.

RL said that the Regions should use WG and his team more often for coaching advice.









RL said that whilst it was recognised that the Wales team, in return for the player release payment, were effectively using and then returning someone else’s assets – and whilst players were with the Welsh set up there were benefiting from enhancements to their skills, conditioning, mindset etc before being released back to their Regions.
SH asked why the WRU deemed it reasonable to consistently have a 4th Autumn International when it left the Regions with less than 7 days to prepare for crucial European games. RL said that this was for two reasons – firstly, WG’s vision that Wales needed to play the best teams in the world which was why Australia had been added this year, and secondly as a response to the Regions asking for more funding – this is partly what the WRU pay for.
SP said that the inequality in payments to the Regions for the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> players was a result of the Regions rejecting an offer to distribute funds based on the number of players in the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>Wales</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> squad; he added that it made far more sense to him if it was done on a pure player release basis. SP went on to point out that the WRU set aside some £6.6m for player release but he understood that less than £5.0m was spent on the current National Squad – this, of course, did not help with players leaving their Regions.

NB asked again about the retention of players in Wales, and the possibility of instigating 'Gatland's Law', WG said that it could be applied in future, but only with assurances that the players would be financially protected, and that they were not taken advantage of by the Regions, and that those already playing abroad were not penalised.

DP stated that he wants the Regions to sign the PA which will give stability and suggested that supporters put some pertinent questions to the Regions, about their management. RL said that the Regions were not taking financial responsibility and maximising their income via marketing, sales and joint sponsorship deals (with the exception of the recently announced Dominos pizza deal). SP said that his financial projections suggested that the Regions had to be pulling in regular gates of up to 12,000 each to make them sustainable.

WG said that Stuart Lancaster was ‘gutted’ that the English clubs had pulled out of the Heineken Cup due to the lack of quality of opposition for them.

NB asked that the WRU meet again with the supporters representatives and RL said he would be delighted to meet in the New Year.

SP asked the supporters’ representatives to please keep the discussions confidential and SH confirmed that as stated at the start of the meeting the supporters representatives have a responsibility to their members and the intention was to provide a full update post the meeting. She stated that a copy of the minutes would be send to the WRU in advance of general release to their members to ensure that nothing commercially sensitive or inaccurate was reported.

SH thanked the WRU for their time and urged them to continue to take the views of supporters on board as we have a lot to lose if a successful resolution isn’t found.

Meeting closed at 6:25pm

Minutes Prepared

I like this bit the most:

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities. He felt that the additional £1m could be spent on more quality coaches and not individual players.

Definitely, 100% correct.

Some interesting bits in there

DD asked about the reports of the WRU telling players not to sign new contracts with the Regions. WG said that this was a ‘complete and utter lie’ and that legal advice had been sought as this was defamatory.

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities.

Yeah i got the same one. Was wondering if they were all the same. Some crazy stuff in it. The coaching point is fair in regards to the Blues from my point of view. Was shocked that Adam hadn’t been offered a contract as well.

What is interesting, which i saw on the SF board, was from this bit of the minutes:

"He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to"

but in 2012 he said this in an interview with the independent:

"...I personally negotiated a television deal for them in respect of the Celtic League, or the RaboDirect Pro12 as it is now"

Which one is it, Rog?

gcBlues wrote:What is interesting, which i saw on the SF board, was from this bit of the minutes:

"He stated that it was not the WRU or himself that negotiated TV deals but Celtic League Ltd and ERC Ltd, of which the Regions had been party to"

but in 2012 he said this in an interview with the independent:

"...I personally negotiated a television deal for them in respect of the Celtic League, or the RaboDirect Pro12 as it is now"

Which one is it, Rog?

Both

IT wasn't Roger Lewis of WRU that got the deal it was Roger Lewis of the Celtic League.

but he said wru OR himself, not himself on behalf of the WRU.

He's just outright lying.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25456431

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money. Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it. I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely. Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on. I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds. I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh. This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something. If your region is failing look a little closer to home. If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves. At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view. Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

gcBlues wrote:but he said wru OR himself, not himself on behalf of the WRU.

He's just outright lying.

I'm not sure exactly where you are going with this. So he may or may not have brokered the deal for the TV rights that would have been represented to the Pro12 pannel or ERC pannels respectively. Either way thats not an agreement. The pannels still sign off on the deals. If regional rugby had any issues that would have been the time to raise concerns.

Bottom line this is starting to look more and more like a Roger Lewis witch hunt. I appreciate he wont always get support from the public but the man has clearly taken an amateur organisation and turned it into a professional one on so many levels. Its your right to an opinion, that said it doesnt mean you are right!

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

The answer isn't all about more money, plus...

"Wales and Lions centre Jamie Roberts will leave Cardiff Blues when his contract expires in May.
Blues boss Richard Holland said Roberts rejected an offer to make him the highest paid Blues player, and possibly the best-paid in the UK.
Roberts said he was leaving to experience rugby outside Wales."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20249030

gcBlues wrote:I like this bit the most:

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities. He felt that the additional £1m could be spent on more quality coaches and not individual players.

Definitely, 100% correct.

But, but...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25410394

Cardiff Dave wrote:

gcBlues wrote:I like this bit the most:

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities. He felt that the additional £1m could be spent on more quality coaches and not individual players.

Definitely, 100% correct.

But, but...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25410394

So what the two are not contradictory

geoff998rugby wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

gcBlues wrote:I like this bit the most:

WG said that he had been told by players that the reason they were looking elsewhere was not money driven but relating to the quality of some coaching and support staff at the Regions as well as facilities. He felt that the additional £1m could be spent on more quality coaches and not individual players.

Definitely, 100% correct.

But, but...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25410394

So what the two are not contradictory

Looks a bit like that.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

Ospreys boss Andrew Hore has accused the Welsh Rugby Union of not encouraging the region to forge better relationships with local clubs

"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."
"If there was extra money coming in from the WRU, I would be looking to engage more with the community and to ensure they felt a significant bond with the Ospreys," he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

WM, please read;
A Brief History of Regional Rugby and the PA
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s170/st184435.htm

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

Ospreys boss Andrew Hore has accused the Welsh Rugby Union of not encouraging the region to forge better relationships with local clubs

"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."
"If there was extra money coming in from the WRU, I would be looking to engage more with the community and to ensure they felt a significant bond with the Ospreys," he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Passing the buck? The regions can't engage more with the community unless WRU pay them to do so? Regions management is a shambles.

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

Ospreys boss Andrew Hore has accused the Welsh Rugby Union of not encouraging the region to forge better relationships with local clubs

"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."
"If there was extra money coming in from the WRU, I would be looking to engage more with the community and to ensure they felt a significant bond with the Ospreys," he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Passing the buck? The regions can't engage more with the community unless WRU pay them to do so? Regions management is a shambles.

Wrong. Read the article.

Munchkin wrote:Passing the buck? The regions can't engage more with the community unless WRU pay them to do so? Regions management is a shambles.

BBC Article wrote:Ospreys boss Andrew Hore has accused the Welsh Rugby Union of not encouraging the region to forge better relationships with local clubs.
The Ospreys chief operations manager wants closer ties with their region's Premiership and community clubs.
"They [WRU] feel it is their domain and not one for regional rugby, which is European rugby and the Pro12," said Hore.
The WRU says it has a structure in place to develop the game in Wales.
But Hore wants his region to have a greater role in that structure, which he believes would allow them to develop players and attract bigger crowds to their games.
He claims to have been "told repeatedly" by the WRU that they should not be involved with "in the community game".
"To me, it's a sad state of affairs because fundamentally we should all be trying to promote the game," said Hore.
"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."
The WRU says its structure to develop the game from schools to semi-professional Premiership clubs allows the four regions to "focus on creating winning teams".
This "pyramid of progression" has been supported by funds in excess of £27m over the past five years, according to the WRU.
"With the WRU structures in place the development pathways lead straight into the regional squads which can then nurture talent for Wales," the WRU said in a statement.
Hore was speaking to BBC Wales Sport after Ospreys re-signed fly-half Dan Biggar to keep him at the Liberty Stadium for a further three years.
The Welsh regions and the WRU have talked about the financial plight of the professional game for over a year but there has been no agreement or proposals to take the game forward as yet.
Biggar, who turned down a chance to go to France to stay with the Pro12 champions, and full-back Richard Fussell and prop Duncan Jones have all signed new deals to stay with the Ospreys and in Wales.
But leading Wales internationals are continuing to leave Wales, attracted by higher wages in France and England.
There have been calls for the WRU to give the Welsh regions more funding to help retain Wales internationals.
Hore admits any extra funding would be welcome but stressed any extra resources would not mean money being spent only on players or on luring big-names to the Liberty Stadium.
"If there was extra money coming in from the WRU, I would be looking to engage more with the community and to ensure they felt a significant bond with the Ospreys," he said.
"That's where the season structure needs to change. So there is not this constant conflict between ourselves, our Premiership clubs and our junior clubs.
"It's a shambles and we need to get our stuff together or we die."

Thebit that was qoted beore was Hore saying IF the WRU gave more funding they wouldn't just use it for players, they would use it the build the community infrastructure that he thinks is vital to grow the region. But the WRU block him doing anything in this direction.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

WM, please read;
A Brief History of Regional Rugby and the PA
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s170/st184435.htm

I've read this. Not sure why because yet again this is not really a factual article. Far to many summations in there with no real detail. This would be like me posting a news atricle and then asking you to read it. Either way this has no bearing on any of my points.

The regions offer us excuses all the time why they cannot be successful and why they are under performing, and yet all our counterparts (who have taken our lead with regards to player release and conditioning) dont apear to have problems being successful. And yet you seem positive the WRU are to blame.

Look I appreciate your viewpoint but I cant change my opinion that our regions as a whole (historically and current) are poorly administrated, coached, managed and directed. They are totally self involved at the best of times and no real idea on how to resolve any of their major failings. There's only so long you can stand up for inept management at your region.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

Ospreys boss Andrew Hore has accused the Welsh Rugby Union of not encouraging the region to forge better relationships with local clubs

"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."
"If there was extra money coming in from the WRU, I would be looking to engage more with the community and to ensure they felt a significant bond with the Ospreys," he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Passing the buck? The regions can't engage more with the community unless WRU pay them to do so? Regions management is a shambles.

Wrong. Read the article.

I read the article. It's passing the buck. Success puts bums on seats, and this is were the regions have failed. As far as bonding more with the community, I'm sure there is ways of doing this without having the WRU splashing out more than the £27m they claim to have done over 5 years in development from school level upwards. Considering the poor management of WRU funding allocated to the regions previously (The PWC report), I can understand WRU being reluctant to provide further funds for the regions to 'bond more' with their respective communities.

Oh and just to be clear as well Roger has had 20 years of top level experience. There is no one at regional level who can even remotely boast his commercial background. Instead they appointed a former "jobs for the boys" in Gallagher.

I'd rather see well educated, experienced and business minded people running the game. I dont want to see Gwyn from down the road start negotiating our commercial deals with commerical giants.

He wasn't saying he would only work with the community if the WRU pay. He said the WRU have blocked him engaging with the community. You clearly didn't read it very well.

Success does put bums on seats. How do you get success in a professional sport? Buy keeping your best players, bringing in a few star talents from outside. The Ospreys did this. Their private backers put money into the new entity without a loyal following so that their excellent, locally developed players could stay and play alongside the odd great player (Marshall, Holah, Collins, Philips (at a push)). There crowds were growing and they got to the HEC QF a few years running.  Mean while, off the pitch, it appears the WRU were blocking the Ospreys from engaging with the local rugby community as it was not their place. This, combined with the relative unfunding from the Union, lead to the backers from pulling their money out, to try and survive on what they could bring in. The best players left and the performances dropped.

How exactly do you get performances when you can't afford to keep any players that show up good? It would have been interesting to see if Leinster had become the team they have if the IRFU had funded them significantly less AND didn't have central contracts.

The regions rejected central contracts thunor so you can't really blame the WRU there. 

That being said the whole thing is a massive sh1tstorm of epic proportions. We have had reports on here (no doubt peddled by the regions) of stars being told not to re-sign in Wales. That's refuted to the point of litigation by the national coach. Someone or both are lying through their teeth and meanwhile it's the fans that suffer. 

I just don't see how this has a happy ending.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Cardiff Dave, I apologise for intruding in your civil war. It is all interlinked, but the important thing that we all should remember is that strong Welsh rugby teams (not too strong, mind   )are pretty much essential for European professional rugby. I'm hoping for a positive result but I don't see it happening with an Anglo-Welsh league.

No worries and our civil war could be easily ended if the PA was amended. But Dodger doesn't want to know as he wants to pay off the MS as quick as he can by the look of it. Also it appears to me that the whole shabang has got very personal to the point that the 4 are considering buggering off elsewhere. Been going on for ages and it's all supposed to be sorted in a couple of weeks? Madness.

Because that is the answer - more money.  Forget the fact that even when the regions have had it they have poorly spent it.  I appreciate you may be a bit one-eyed when it comes to your beloved Blues but even you can't deny how poorly at times they do their business dealings.

They actively under value national players, or not offer contracts, or try to sell their assets prematurely.  Why should the WRU therefore provide even more money if they have no control on how or who it is spent on.  I'm sure Regan King will be a good signing but if he is being paid with WRU money you might understand why this is rubbing salt in the wounds.  I personally don't want to see WRU money used on players who are not Welsh.  This is why this money is being generated and its there to safeguard the future of our next generation of welsh stars.  

I wish regional fans would stop looking at the WRU as if they owe them something.  If your region is failing look a little closer to home.  If you cant garner support locally with attendances, as fans, you can only blame yourselves.  At most, you could apportion some of the blame with the region for the product they produce from an entertainment view.  Thats pretty much where the buck stops.

The regions aren't spending the WRU's money. They're spending their own. It looks like the WRU gives them loads of money but look at what it is for: £9m from tv and completions. They could just get this direct, but it goes via the WRU so the WRU gets to look great like they're giving it to the regions from their own pockets. They also pay the regions £1.5m each for extra access to players, i.e. over and above what a normal club needs to release players for. The regions need cover for these players being away for extra time and that costs. It's therefore a payment rather than a subsidy. It's earned.

So with this in mind, how are the regions spending the WRU money?

So if the agreement is not signed what do these central contracts lead to?

It appears to me that at every turn the WRU are offering to centrally contract players, it appears that eventually they will get their own way on this. But what will happen when they do?

Will the regions be forced to play them (believe they have all agreed not to play centrally contracted players)?
Is it the first step towards setting up new regions?

If the WRU do get a few players to sign central contracts, and the regions refuse to play any centrally contracted players, can the WRU disband a region or drop them out of the Pro 12/ H-cup and replace them with RGC1404? If no perception agreement is signed before the summer?

Is the Pro 12 agreement for the next 2 years with the WRU to enter 4 teams and they can choose which 4, or is there a contract that means it has to be the regions? or is this part of the parcipation agreement that it is these these are entered and it expires in the summer, meaning one or all could easily be replaced?

The problem with central contracts as I understand it is that the WRU planned on using the £9m tv and competitions money to fund it. This, along with a probable cut in the £6m player release money (probably not paid if the WRU 'owned' the players), would mean that the region's income would be cut to tickets, merchandise and beer which would not cover the rest of the squad (some 30 players each I should imagine).

Does any other country use the clubs tv money to cover central contract costs?

HammerofThunor wrote:He wasn't saying he would only work with the community if the WRU pay. He said the WRU have blocked him engaging with the community. You clearly didn't read it very well.

Success does put bums on seats. How do you get success in a professional sport? Buy keeping your best players, bringing in a few star talents from outside. The Ospreys did this. Their private backers put money into the new entity without a loyal following so that their excellent, locally developed players could stay and play alongside the odd great player (Marshall, Holah, Collins, Philips (at a push)). There crowds were growing and they got to the HEC QF a few years running.  Mean while, off the pitch, it appears the WRU were blocking the Ospreys from engaging with the local rugby community as it was not their place. This, combined with the relative unfunding from the Union, lead to the backers from pulling their money out, to try and survive on what they could bring in. The best players left and the performances dropped.

How exactly do you get performances when you can't afford to keep any players that show up good? I towuld have been interestignt o see if Leinster had become the team they have if the IRFU had funded them significantly less AND didn't have central contracts.

I read it well enough. Have you? The WRU have an existing development program which they fund, and Hore wants the regions more involved in that. The WRU don't want this, and I can fully understand why: -

"The WRU says its structure to develop the game from schools to semi-professional Premiership clubs allows the four regions to "focus on creating winning teams".
This "pyramid of progression" has been supported by funds in excess of £27m over the past five years, according to the WRU.
"With the WRU structures in place the development pathways lead straight into the regional squads which can then nurture talent for Wales," the WRU said in a statement."

They have their structure in place, and as WRU they are doing what they are tasked to do in taking care of rugby union in Wales from grassroots level up, whilst leaving the regions to do what is expected of them. To bring success to their clubs. The Regions have been poorly managed with what they have in the past. Would they really be more effective in having more responsibility passed on to them?
The bonding with community thing is a smoke and mirrors. Is that why the regions have failed to put bums on seats? I know you haven't said so, but this is the contention.
As for not having the players to bring success to the regions? The regions are now losing leading players to England, and France, but that was not always the case, was it? Why no success when they had stronger teams? Enough of the excuses.

Welshmushroom wrote:Oh and just to be clear as well Roger has had 20 years of top level experience.  There is no one at regional level who can even remotely boast his commercial background.  Instead they appointed a former "jobs for the boys" in Gallagher.

I'd rather see well educated, experienced and business minded people running the game.  I dont want to see Gwyn from down the road start negotiating our commercial deals with commerical giants.

Thanks for that. Have you not heard the name Peter Thomas, the multimillionaire?
Seen his house on the outskirts of Cardiff? Fecking huge it is. Bet it's bigger than Dodgers.

Munchkin wrote:Why no success when they had stronger teams? Enough of the excuses.

EDF, Amlin (Toulon in their backyard an orl) and a gnat's nadger away from a HEC final.

Griff wrote:The regions aren't spending the WRU's money. They're spending their own. It looks like the WRU gives them loads of money but look at what it is for: £9m from tv and completions. They could just get this direct, but it goes via the WRU so the WRU gets to look great like they're giving it to the regions from their own pockets. They also pay the regions £1.5m each for extra access to players, i.e. over and above what a normal club needs to release players for. The regions need cover for these players being away for extra time and that costs. It's therefore a payment rather than a subsidy. It's earned.

So with this in mind, how are the regions spending the WRU money?

Compare the Welsh Regions to the Irish Provinces in how they are run.

The IRFU give each of the Provinces 5M per annum (big 3 anyway, Connacht has a different set-up) and the IRFU have total control of the provinces who have to develop other streams of income from ticket sales, Jersey sales, sponsorship etc. When I say control, the Ireland management can call in any player to hold tackle bags for the national squad and the provincial coaches have to deal with it.

The IRFU take all the money that the provinces earn from the Pro12 & the Heineken Cup (about 12M per annum I think). The Provinces can keep the gate money in the group stages.

For home QFs in the Heineken Cup, the gate money is split between the competing teams, but wait for it, the IRFU take 50% of the provincial share of the gate (for example, Leinster home QF v Leicester a few years ago in the Aviva - Leicester got more out of it than Leinster). The ERC take the gate money for semi finals/finals.

The Welsh Regions should count themselves lucky they get such an easy ride from the WRU.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Oh and just to be clear as well Roger has had 20 years of top level experience.  There is no one at regional level who can even remotely boast his commercial background.  Instead they appointed a former "jobs for the boys" in Gallagher.

I'd rather see well educated, experienced and business minded people running the game.  I dont want to see Gwyn from down the road start negotiating our commercial deals with commerical giants.

Thanks for that. Have you not heard the name Peter Thomas, the multimillionaire?
Seen his house on the outskirts of Cardiff? Fecking huge it is. Bet it's bigger than Dodgers.

I'd hope it is bigger, otherwise Roger would deserve the name dodger