What the hell is going on in Wales?

First topic message reminder :

Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

How about trying to develop a stronger Welsh Premiership then? Get it down to about 10 teams. Try and get the standards up and turn the league into a fourth region

Hi. I have a new question for you all:

Can the WRU actually afford to set up and run new regions if these ones flee for the AP?

From what I read here the WRU sped up paying off the debt for the Millennium stadium which suggests that they have chosen to spend their ready cash on this rather than planning on investing in pro teams.

The professional game in Ireland cost the IRFU €32 million last year:
http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/about/annual_reports.php
(see page 37) This figure includes everything spent on the pro game, but the pro game in Ireland also brings in some income through gate receipts and sponsorship, so the real cost of running four pro teams could have been even more. I know that the WRU is making a profit but can it feasibly come up with this much money to run new pro sides by itself?

If they can't come up with this money then they cannot be planning to form new regions and have another plan for the pro game in Wales.

Is going back to the club game (at least for now) the most viable option? If Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli and Swansea leave to join the AP then the Welsh Premiership will already be down to 8 teams. Sounds crazy but it could be cheaper for the time being to invest in current clubs under WRU control

The IRFU had an income last year of £54.7M and spent £37.6M on rugby (pro and community). WRU had an income last year of £61M and spent £29M on rugby (pro and community). Just to be clear the IRFU income does not include Provincial sponsorship, gate receipts, etc.

So the IRFU spent 69% of their income on rugby. WRU spent 46% of their income on rugby. The IRFU spent nearly a third again on rugby what the WRU did on rugby, even though they made 10% less overall.

I'm not an accountant or have a clue about the details these issues but the reports are freely available for all knowledgable people. But I'd say the money is there...somewhere, where it goes I have no idea.

Edit: I used today's exchange rate, :cuss if I know the best way of comparing.

Where did you see that information, mate?  I really didn't want to get that involved with it, but if Rugby is going down the port-o-john, I would like to see some of the  financials to give me a better idea who is bullshitting and by how much.  I presume the same info is available for the Premiership/RFU?  If the WRU is forking over significantly less dough, I find that very interesting.

17 pages into this thread and I still don't know what the hell is going on in Wales.  

George Carlin wrote:17 pages into this thread and I still don't know what the hell is going on in Wales.  

Join the club George none of us fecking do and unfortunately that includes the Regions and the Union

doctor_grey wrote:Where did you see that information, mate?  I really didn't want to get that involved with it, but if Rugby is going down the port-o-john, I would like to see some of the  financials to give me a better idea who is bullshitting and by how much.  I presume the same info is available for the Premiership/RFU?  If the WRU is forking over significantly less dough, I find that very interesting.

Search IRFU/WRU/RFU/etc annual reports.

For comparison the RFU had income of £154M and invested £64.5M, which is 42% of income. Although this does not include TV revenue for league or Europe. That was about £30M before the BT deal (no idea on sponsorship values). Which would make it 51% (94.5/184).

Again this isn't really amount available for spending. Not sure what "cost of sales" is, marketing and things like that?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

George Carlin wrote:17 pages into this thread and I still don't know what the hell is going on in Wales.  

Join the club George none of us fecking do and unfortunately that includes the Regions and the Union

  

doctor_grey wrote:Where did you see that information, mate?  I really didn't want to get that involved with it, but if Rugby is going down the port-o-john, I would like to see some of the  financials to give me a better idea who is bullshitting and by how much.  I presume the same info is available for the Premiership/RFU?  If the WRU is forking over significantly less dough, I find that very interesting.

Could be they have higher overheads (stadium playoffs would count here). Difficult to say who is 'best run'. IRFU spend most on rugby (as a fraction of income). Is this because they're the most efficient? Or if they spent more on marketing could the absolute amount for investment increase even if the relative value decreases? Too complicated to say, certainly by me.

HammerofThunor wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Where did you see that information, mate?  I really didn't want to get that involved with it, but if Rugby is going down the port-o-john, I would like to see some of the  financials to give me a better idea who is bullshitting and by how much.  I presume the same info is available for the Premiership/RFU?  If the WRU is forking over significantly less dough, I find that very interesting.

Could be they have higher overheads (stadium playoffs would count here). Difficult to say who is 'best run'. IRFU spend most on rugby (as a fraction of income). Is this because they're the most efficient? Or if they spent more on marketing could the absolute amount for investment increase even if the relative value decreases? Too complicated to say, certainly by me.

Good point. But it does go to show the challenge with merging different business models in a modern sport which is trying to grow. How and where the funding goes is fascinating, even though reading financials are a bit complicated.

Steffan wrote:Is going back to the club game (at least for now) the most viable option? If Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli and Swansea leave to join the AP then the Welsh Premiership will already be down to 8 teams. Sounds crazy but it could be cheaper for the time being to invest in current clubs under WRU control

The WRUs major issue with the regions leaving the Rabo is that the WRU are contracted to providing four teams to the tournament. SO the WRU would not consider pulling out of the Rabo to return to a club game.

This (the bit I've put in bold) is pretty disgraceful if true:

JOINT STATEMENT FROM THE SUPPORTERS OF WELSH REGIONAL RUGBY

30th December 2013

As you are aware representatives from our Joint Group met with representatives of Regional Rugby Wales immediately prior to Christmas (Sunday 23rd December) on our request further to our meeting with the Welsh Rugby Union on Monday 16th December 2013.

We will release a copy of the full minutes of that meeting to our respective members in due course – you will understand that we are volunteers and it has been a busy festive period, but these should be sent within the next 7 days.

In the meantime, it is fair to say that we still have a number of serious concerns and there are a number of discrepancies in the information that we have been told and/or shown.

The RRW representatives were able to provide us with evidence that a number of the claims made by the WRU were incorrect or misleading. We will be requesting a follow up meeting in the New Year with the WRU to attempt to understand why this has occurred as offered to us by WRU Chief Executive Roger Lewis.

The concerns we have include the following:
-
The insistence that the current Participation Agreement is non-negotiable, and cannot be varied, where Clause 30 of the Participation Agreement specifically provides for an annual review of the situation. This has never taken place.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rv9288

The insistence that the current Participation Agreement is non-negotiable, and cannot be varied, where Clause 30 of the Participation Agreement specifically provides for an annual review of the situation. This has never taken place.

Pointless bothering with an agreement if you were going to have to review it every year. The reason you have these type of agreements is to provide some certainty so that you can plan a bit ahead. It could work both ways for the Regions as well - the WRU could try and reduce its funding every year.

HammerofThunor wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Where did you see that information, mate?  I really didn't want to get that involved with it, but if Rugby is going down the port-o-john, I would like to see some of the  financials to give me a better idea who is bullshitting and by how much.  I presume the same info is available for the Premiership/RFU?  If the WRU is forking over significantly less dough, I find that very interesting.

Search IRFU/WRU/RFU/etc annual reports.

Directly from the IRFU/WRU Annual Reports:

IRFU Income 2012/13: €64,162,661

IRFU Expenditure:
Pro game costs:   €32,219,854
Elite player development:   €2,924,170  (Academies, Underage teams etc)
Domestic & Community rugby:   €9,502,759
Marketing: €1,248,131
Administration & Overheads: €5,133,532

--------------

WRU Annual Report

WRU Income: £60,962,000

WRU Expenditure
Regions: £16,849,000
Premiership: £1,226,000
Community Rugby: £3,988,000
Elite Rugby: £4,228,000 (7s team, Academies? presumably)
Admins: £6,012,000
Stadium: £5,308,000

The WRU had a surplus of about 5M last year (not a whole lot). They are also in debt to the tune of about 60M as far as I can see. I'm not sure where the extra money for the regions is going to come from.

By the way, the IRFU take half the gate from the Provinces after the knock-out stages of the Heineken Cup. They don't get any prize money, merit payments. Presumably that is why the Provinces work hard at their marketing because they get to keep their own sponsorships and jersey sales etc.

HammerofThunor wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Where did you see that information, mate?  I really didn't want to get that involved with it, but if Rugby is going down the port-o-john, I would like to see some of the  financials to give me a better idea who is bullshitting and by how much.  I presume the same info is available for the Premiership/RFU?  If the WRU is forking over significantly less dough, I find that very interesting.

Could be they have higher overheads (stadium playoffs would count here). Difficult to say who is 'best run'. IRFU spend most on rugby (as a fraction of income). Is this because they're the most efficient? Or if they spent more on marketing could the absolute amount for investment increase even if the relative value decreases? Too complicated to say, certainly by me.

The difference between them is that the IRFU invested in the game initially (bringing home players and putting them on central contract), whereas the Welsh & Scots invested in stadia very early.

I think the IRFU is incredibly well run. A lot of that would be down to Tom Grace (IRFU Hon Treasurer) who, before his retirement was the leading Liquidator in the country so would have come across some disasterous business situations that would be best avoided.

They certainly went about things the right way (it appears). Now they're able to reduce funding to the provinces (potentially) as they generate a lot of their own income. This money can be used to promote and grow the game at grass roots level.

Personally it appears that the Irish set-up has been pretty much perfect for Irish rugby (doesn't mean it should be just used for other groups but used for inspiration certainly). They may not have been as successful at international level as some but that is so heavily dependant on coaching, injuries, etc that (IMO) it would be wrong to be judged on (also it's not the be all and end all). Strong domestic rugby will lead to potentially strong international rugby in the long term. Weak domestic rugby means it could all come crashing down.

I think the Elite rugby part (WRU) must include payment to the international players for playing for Wales. Can't see where else that would come from.

Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Sin é wrote:
Elite Rugby: £4,228,000
Admins: £6,012,000

How much less would those figures be without Roger Lewis and Gatland?

Sin é wrote:

The insistence that the current Participation Agreement is non-negotiable, and cannot be varied, where Clause 30 of the Participation Agreement specifically provides for an annual review of the situation. This has never taken place.

Pointless bothering with an agreement if you were going to have to review it every year. The reason you have these type of agreements is to provide some certainty so that you can plan a bit ahead. It could work both ways for the Regions as well - the WRU could try and reduce its funding every year.

From the WRU website re the Participation Agreement;
"The Participation Agreement and the Rugby Charter will effectively shape the elite game in Wales to 2014 and will continue for a further five years on the same terms at the option of the Regions."
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

I though Roger was going to be at Dave Parade tomorrow and walk on just before kick off in his Team Roger shirt, pick up the match ball and say "it is my ball and I said you can't play with it!" and then skulk off back home.

Il be in Benidorm and will miss all the announcements. Will try and get internet at some point though or a newspaper. Agreed though it will probably just to tell us all that nothing has changed

HammerofThunor wrote:They certainly went about things the right way (it appears). Now they're able to reduce funding to the provinces (potentially) as they generate a lot of their own income. This money can be used to promote and grow the game at grass roots level.

Personally it appears that the Irish set-up has been pretty much perfect for Irish rugby (doesn't mean it should be just used for other groups but used for inspiration certainly). They may not have been as successful at international level as some but that is so heavily dependant on coaching, injuries, etc that (IMO) it would be wrong to be judged on (also it's not the be all and end all). Strong domestic rugby will lead to potentially strong international rugby in the long term. Weak domestic rugby means it could all come crashing down.

Have to agree.  Irish Rugby is exceptionally well run.  As you say Hammer, it is appears likely to be the right system for Irish Rugby.  For whatever reasons, twenty years ago when Rugby formally went professional, Wales took a different route than Ireland, probably for reasons which made sense at the time.  The problem for Wales if they would look to change to a system similar to the Irish system now is they would be re-setting the clock back a long ways.  Could potentially set Welsh Rugby back for a while to come before they turn around again.

On the other hand, a quick counter-point or or caveat about the so-called ideal Irish system.  In all things:  Systems, business processes, agreements, and so on, are 100% useless without good people to run and administer them.  I submit the success of the Irish system is not so much the system as the good and committed people they have.  To me it is probable with lesser people their system would be less successful.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:I can't see the regions competing with the WRU in the long run. The WRU will start up new teams and academies and eventually use central contracts to keep their star players in Wales.

 Despite the leaked information from the WRU's own PWC report into the regional game categorically stating that the above plan was cloud cuckoo land stuff?

That was on the basis of recruiting four teams worth of players. Besides, the WRU have shown willingness to start central contracts. Put the two together along with the kind of money that's available and two teams (+1 development maybe) centrally contracted looks possible - especially if the current regions decide to jump ship and the WRU are obliged to enter sides into the Pro12 and HEC.

Utter tosh. The point you are missing is they cannot compete with the French salaries. This will continue - wages will continue to spiral and eventually leave the Three True Rogions in an even worse position than the current crop, because they will have the exact same problems (unattractive league, nonsensical costs of participation, garbage WRU negotiated TV deals, etc). The downward spiral would thus continue, especially as even those with their heads firmly lodges in Wgers backside have to admit the revenue generating potential of the Welsh international pissheads day out at the Millstone has already been stretched to the max and beyond

"I submit the success of the Irish system is not so much the system as the good and committed people they have. To me it is probable with lesser people their system would be less successful"

When recruiting people to run the provinces and the union finances they went outside the union and hired already successful businessmen. Although many would make some mistakes, unlike having a benefactor running a club as a pet project, this business took the whole of their attention and if it didn't succeed they'd lose their jobs.

I don't think that this policy is difficult to replicate. There isn't really any mystery involved in how they chose the best people for the job and motivated them.

Intotouch wrote:"I submit the success of the Irish system is not so much the system as the good and committed people they have.  To me it is probable with lesser people their system would be less successful"

When recruiting people to run the provinces and the union finances they went outside the union and hired already successful businessmen. Although many would make some mistakes, unlike having a benefactor running a club as a pet project, this business took the whole of their attention and if it didn't succeed they'd lose their jobs.

I don't think that this policy is difficult to replicate. There isn't really any mystery involved in how they chose the best people for the job and motivated them.

I agree the policy is not so hard to duplicate.  But I believe finding the right people is very difficult.  To me, this is the crux of the Irish success.  If we always hired or partnered with the right people, there never would have been a financial crisis and wars could be avoided.   On and on.  Good people are everything.  Systems simply make things easier or harder.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

I though Roger was going to be at Dave Parade tomorrow and walk on just before kick off in his Team Roger shirt, pick up the match ball and say "it is my ball and I said you can't play with it!" and then skulk off back home.

Newport v Oxford tomorrow at Dave.  

Dai, was hoping that my mistake about where the game was being played would go unnoticed, d'oh.

HammerofThunor wrote:The IRFU had an income last year of £54.7M and spent £37.6M on rugby (pro and community). WRU had an income last year of £61M and spent £29M on rugby (pro and community). Just to be clear the IRFU income does not include Provincial sponsorship, gate receipts, etc.

So the IRFU spent 69% of their income on rugby. WRU spent 46% of their income on rugby. The IRFU spent nearly a third again on rugby what the WRU did on rugby, even though they made 10% less overall.

I'm not an accountant or have a clue about the details these issues but the reports are freely available for all knowledgable people. But I'd say the money is there...somewhere, where it goes I have no idea.

Edit: I used today's exchange rate, :cuss if I know the best way of comparing.

,
Hammer, I posted somewhere on here a few weeks ago, about 2 teams in the valley I live in, Nantymoel and Ogmore Vale and the adjoining valley Blaengarw and Pontycymmer where I was brought up and I played for Pontycymmer, 3 of these teams have had loans or grants in the past 5 years from the WRU of over £5000, it could be all of them, there are 77 clubs within Ospreylia affiliated to the WRU, perhaps supporters of the other Regions could find out what the figures are for their Regions, to go back NOT one player has come through any of those clubs into at least the Under 18s and above within Ospreylia, the 300 odd Junior Clubs affiliated to the WRU CONTROL IT. Why would Turkeys vote for Christmas, there are a few clubs within Ospreylia who justify extra money, Bridgend Athletic, Porthcawl and Waunarlwydd have numerous players every season joining the Acadamy, unless there is a fundamental mood switch within the WRU and some of this money is going to be paid to the Regions, I and many others within the Ospreys forum want us to join up with the English.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

And another thing, if it's true that under the soon-to-expire agreement, the regions couldn't publically criticise the WRU or its members without being fined, then we can expect a whole lot of spleen-venting come midnight.

RRW, on behalf of the four Welsh Regions, confirms that the Regional businesses remain unable to commit to extend the existing Participation Agreement with the WRU by the deadline

Whilst the Welsh Regions, their players and coaches, investors, sponsors, supporters and communities take great pride in their contribution to Welsh Rugby at all levels of the game and remain totally committed to working with the WRU to secure a sustainable and competitive future for professional Rugby in Wales, at this point the WRU remains unable to confirm;

The existence and structure of any European/Cup Competition for the period 14/15 to 18/19
The income and distribution from any such competition over the period
The number of teams participating in the Pro12 league for the period 14/15 to 18/19
The income and distribution from the Pro12 league over the period, or even the confirmation of a main sponsor

Consequently, the basic definition of “participation” within the legal agreement cannot be confirmed. So the WRU are demanding that the Regions legally commit to their operating costs - without committing in turn to the competition incomes that are their obligation under the agreement.

The WRU do not and could not run their business in such circumstances and neither can the Regions. The WRU hold full responsibility under the Participation Agreement for the Competition platform and TV rights of the Regions and it is astonishing that they have put the four businesses in this position as a result of failing to fulfil their obligations under the agreement, despite having almost two years to resolve the issues involved. As it stands, the Regions do not believe the Participation Agreement reflects the changes and demands of the modern game.

As a result, the position the Regions currently face is that;

10/32 games are not confirmed for 14/15 season in just 8 months time – 31% season total
Season ticket and match day ticket incomes cannot be confirmed
Sponsor contracts and income cannot be confirmed within contractual deadlines
Playing kit, merchandise design, orders and income cannot be confirmed within contractual deadlines
The total income currently at risk for the 14/15 season alone amounts to a possible £16m across the four Regions and they are unable to confirm any form of robust business plan and financial forecast beyond May - in just five months time.

At the same time, it is very clear that massive increases in the TV revenues being achieved by the Club game in Europe will dramatically increase the funding gap between the Regions and clubs in France and England over the next five years; well beyond the reach of any potential increases in attendance or commercial revenues; whilst the funding provided to Irish and Scottish teams from their Unions remains significantly greater than that in Wales.

Recognising these stark facts and as a direct result of the position they have been placed in, RRW and the Regions have had no choice but to consider every alternative to secure a truly sustainable future for regional rugby in Wales.

Therefore, RRW and the Regions re-affirm their commitment to the Rugby Champions Cup under the aegis of Six Nations, which will generate a guaranteed £12m additional funding across the four regions over the next three years and help reduce the funding gap compared to the French, English, Irish and Scottish clubs.

A solution must be reached by the end of January 2014. Should this not be possible, the Regions will have no choice but to pursue further competition options immediately.

Having secured this position, the Regions are now able to plan positively based on these options, rather than the destructive alternative of massive cost cutting that they would have no choice but to undertake due to the £16m risk they currently face as part of the existing agreement.

It continues to be the absolute intent and strong desire of RRW and the Regions to work with the WRU in progressing such a positive position for the next five years of professional Rugby in Wales, or indeed to discuss any proposals WRU themselves may have that could provide an even stronger platform for sustainable and competitive professional rugby across Wales
Without change, professional rugby in Wales will fall further and further behind the rest of the European game.

The Regions’ passionate commitment to developing world-class players in Wales, their investment in infrastructure, development networks, rugby intellect and experience to support Welsh Rugby success is absolute. It is this commitment, together with their role in promoting and celebrating the rich heritage and history within the regional and club game that they seek to protect.

Apparently ospreys have now been sucked into the investigations over the missuse of European grants to fund grounds as well as Scarlets.

Good times.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Apparently ospreys have now been sucked into the investigations over the missuse of European grants to fund grounds as well as Scarlets.


Good times.

This is a red herring, also included within this investigation is Real Madrid and Barcelona.

Wayne,
If I read the press release properly, can I translate it to mean:
The Regions want certain financial and structural guarantees. The WRU cannot provide them, but still want the regions to sign on as if those certainties actually exist?

On that basis, it sounds daft.

HammerofThunor wrote:They certainly went about things the right way (it appears). Now they're able to reduce funding to the provinces (potentially) as they generate a lot of their own income. This money can be used to promote and grow the game at grass roots level.

Personally it appears that the Irish set-up has been pretty much perfect for Irish rugby (doesn't mean it should be just used for other groups but used for inspiration certainly). They may not have been as successful at international level as some but that is so heavily dependant on coaching, injuries, etc that (IMO) it would be wrong to be judged on (also it's not the be all and end all). Strong domestic rugby will lead to potentially strong international rugby in the long term. Weak domestic rugby means it could all come crashing down.

We've got our own house in order, but to follow the SANZAR model we need people to play with us. Everybody is taking their balls away and storming off!

It's sickening for me that we face an uncertain future through very little fault of our own. We've set-up a system without the aid of private benefactors where we are able to give the international side enviable access to players, be competitive enough off the field to retain the vast majority of our international side and competitive enough on it to deliver 6 Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam in the pro era. In a Europe dominated by England and France in terms of support, money and sheer depth we've found a way to manufacture the best club sides this side of the SH.

But just like test rugby relies on having other parties to play against, so does our provincial system and the failure of other Unions to properly set-up a professional club game that isn't in conflict with test rugby is biting us in the ass.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

And another thing, if it's true that under the soon-to-expire agreement, the regions couldn't publically criticise the WRU or its members without being fined, then we can expect a whole lot of spleen-venting come midnight.

Good thinking.
Ooh you are wicked.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

And another thing, if it's true that under the soon-to-expire agreement, the regions couldn't publically criticise the WRU or its members without being fined, then we can expect a whole lot of spleen-venting come midnight.

Good thinking.
Ooh you are wicked.

The current PA runs out at the end of the season. The agreed time to renew was the end of the year

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/29209.php#.UsMPN-BDx95

What do you make of this?

1) The WRU will not allow the regions to leave Wales without a court battle to overturn IRB regulations (RRW will probably hope the PRL pick up the lawyers bills for that one...)
2) New regions are on the way. Expect details soon.

doctor_grey wrote:Wayne,
If I read the press release properly, can I translate it to mean:
The Regions want certain financial and structural guarantees.  The WRU cannot provide them, but still want the regions to sign on as if those certainties actually exist?

On that basis, it sounds daft.

If I understand you correctly, Yes, the real problem was the way it was all set up, with the WRU not having the cash to implement Regional Rugby in 2003, now due to the restructuring of the MS debt, they believe they now have this money to set up these Regions with them having TOTAL CONTROL
The Benefactors have from reports I've seen put in £45M over the past 10 years and they are not going to walk away quietly, even if it involves Court Action, I've also been privy to information that it will not even be their money involved to fight these actions, there are others waiting in the wings.

doctor_grey wrote:Wayne,
If I read the press release properly, can I translate it to mean:
The Regions want certain financial and structural guarantees.  The WRU cannot provide them, but still want the regions to sign on as if those certainties actually exist?

On that basis, it sounds daft.

Agreed it is daft and there are other issues too that need addressing. Stone Motif mentioned a few in his last post on here. I'll add NWQ quotas, the 4th AI and the 13 day rule to the list. Plus the whole concept of regionalism, which has worked out marvelously for team wales, but not so well on the domestic front. Can I also add paying off the MS earlier than is necessary? Oh I just did.
For me, the PA is not fit for purpose and never was, so rip it up and start again.

Notch wrote:http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/29209.php#.UsMPN-BDx95

What do you make of this?

1) The WRU will not allow the regions to leave Wales without a court battle to overturn IRB regulations (RRW will probably hope the PRL pick up the lawyers bills for that one...)
2) New regions are on the way. Expect details soon.

Not sure really. Do they mean new regions or the existing ones?

"The decision of the existing Regional Organisations not to continue with the PA has now freed the WRU to present a new Participation Agreement focused on recognising and rewarding Regions which identify, develop and retain players capable of challenging for international honours with Wales. This is in the best interests of Welsh Rugby."

Hopefully this means a new Participation Agreement for new regions and not the current ones. It is hard to tell what they mean though. I bet if it was new regions Owen Smith is resurrecting the 'Valleys Rugby' plan as we speak   

Altogether now PONTY PONTY PO...sorry I mean...VALLEYS VALLEYS VALLEYS (just kidding folks)

HammerofThunor wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just over 5 Hours left until the WRU deadline, so I guess we will soon know what is to happen.

Alternatively, I doubt we'll be any the wiser today and the WRU are having a get together on Thursday.
I do reckon however we'll have a statement from RRW saying why they won't be signing the current PA and another from the WRU expressing their disappointment or something like that.

And another thing, if it's true that under the soon-to-expire agreement, the regions couldn't publically criticise the WRU or its members without being fined, then we can expect a whole lot of spleen-venting come midnight.

Good thinking.
Ooh you are wicked.

The current PA runs out at the end of the season. The agreed time to renew was the end of the year

You are quite correct and I don't see the point of RRW dishing the dirt anyway. We've had enough of that from both sides to last a lifetime.

Notch wrote:http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/29209.php#.UsMPN-BDx95

What do you make of this?

1) The WRU will not allow the regions to leave Wales without a court battle to overturn IRB regulations (RRW will probably hope the PRL pick up the lawyers bills for that one...)
2) New regions are on the way. Expect details soon.

Carefully worded to basically say "Frak you" we are starting new regions. I love it. Bring it on. The superclubs are dead and we can now get on with implementing a proper regional system like Ireland. Wait for us at the bar boys we will be back. It may take a season or two so that current contracts with the regions run out (unless they go bankrupt when the English dump them) but these new regions will be signing up all the Welsh squad you can bet your life on it.

doctornickolas wrote:Carefully worded to basically say "Frak you" we are starting new regions. I  love it. Bring it on. The superclubs are dead and we can now get on with implementing a proper regional system like Ireland. Wait for us at the bar boys we will be back.  It may take a season or two so that current contracts with the regions run out (unless they go bankrupt when the English dump them) but these new regions will be signing up all the Welsh squad you can bet your life on it.

Il drink to that sir   

Finally il get to watch professional domestic rugby again  

doctornickolas wrote:

Notch wrote:http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/29209.php#.UsMPN-BDx95

What do you make of this?

1) The WRU will not allow the regions to leave Wales without a court battle to overturn IRB regulations (RRW will probably hope the PRL pick up the lawyers bills for that one...)
2) New regions are on the way. Expect details soon.

Carefully worded to basically say "Frak you" we are starting new regions. I  love it. Bring it on. The superclubs are dead and we can now get on with implementing a proper regional system like Ireland. Wait for us at the bar boys we will be back.  It may take a season or two so that current contracts with the regions run out (unless they go bankrupt when the English dump them) but these new regions will be signing up all the Welsh squad you can bet your life on it.

Are you originally from Penarth? Home of the legendary Robinson brothers and Xavier Rush?

Cardiff Dave wrote:Are you originally from Penarth? Home of the legendary Robinson brothers and Xavier Rush?

And that Rhys Patchell ofcourse   

Just out of interest Dave if an East Wales (or something simular) did get brought in would you support or be against it?