Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

One guy I think deserves high praise from these two Treviso games is Sean Doyle.
As you know I reported some doubt about his future and that he needed to put his hand - he has done so big time.

Few more games like that and he will be with us next year for sure.

Notch wrote:Marshall is bigger but still makes less yards with the ball than Olding. If anything, Marshall is more likely to move outside.

It depends on what context you mean, Notch. When we need a big crash ball runner in midfield, I think Marshall is the best in Ireland. He makes a lot of ground even when running into a brick wall of defenders, as Roberts does for Wales. I'm not sure Stuart is capable of that. However I know what you mean, Stuart has a lovely step (and is deceptively strong despite his height, very stocky guy) and makes a lot of ground with his silky running skills.

However, Marshall has been used as a crash ball option far too often, and I would like to see his creative side utilised properly. He looks more exciting in an irish shirt than he does for Ulster. He seems to rely more on avoiding contact when on the international scene, and I would like to see him doing this at provincial level as well.

Just wondering, having went to school with Stuart, do people really think he is a once in a generation player? At school he was a pretty good player, but not really anything special (unlike Hendy). He seems to have absolutely took off since leaving though, and to be honest I am quite shocked he has been so good. He wasn't ever known for his pace, but he looks a lot quicker now than he ever did at school.

Surely if a player is as versatile as Olding, whilst being so young - that is when a club needs to be smart and mould him where he will most benefit the team.

Where will he most benefit the team? Surely not competing with jackson. Surely not competing with Marshall. It all comes down to where is Payne going to be. If Ireland are going to be looking at Payne as 13 - then its simple - Olding is a 15. Not because thats what he's currently best suited for but because thats what we most need him to be, and will mould him to be.

Hard luck Darren - but out of Jackson, Marshall, Payne, Olding and Cave for 4 positions, Darren has to miss out IMO. And he doesn't even give us versatility on the bench...

  

The thing is, Cave has been very good at times this season. Not quite as consistent as I would like, but who has been?

I would move Olding out to 13 but I would be open to shifting Marshall. I think Olding would benefit more from the space (slightly more than at 12) that 13 presents whilst I don't think it necessarily would curtail his playmaking ability. The reality is if Olding and Marshall developed an understanding they could interchange a lot. 12's need to be able to truck it up though and I'm not sure Olding could at the top level. Remains to be seen though.

I would like to see a ...

Pienaar, Jackson, Bowe, Marshall,  Olding, Trimble, Payne backline. Given we then have Gilroy and Allen and Cave backing up that's pretty good. Would be brilliant if Nelson and Farrell stepped up though

Truth is, when Olding comes back he won't be competing with Marshall- Marshall will be competing with him!

Well not really Notch. The shirt is Marshall's. Olding
( if he is to be at 12) has to take it off him. I do suspect that the coaches may be mulling over a Marshall/Olding combination although the form factor will come into the mix. I don't want to continue shifting Olding about though

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Just wondering, having went to school with Stuart, do people really think he is a once in a generation player?  At school he was a pretty good player, but not really anything special (unlike Hendy).  He seems to have absolutely took off since leaving though, and to be honest I am quite shocked he has been so good.  He wasn't ever known for his pace, but he looks a lot quicker now than he ever did at school.

Maybe he just looked slow because you were running so fast Rory! .....   

clivemcl wrote:Surely if a player is as versatile as Olding, whilst being so young - that is when a club needs to be smart and mould him where he will most benefit the team.

Where will he most benefit the team? Surely not competing with jackson. Surely not competing with Marshall. It all comes down to where is Payne going to be. If Ireland are going to be looking at Payne as 13 - then its simple - Olding is a 15. Not because thats what he's currently best suited for but because thats what we most need him to be, and will mould him to be.

Hard luck Darren - but out of Jackson, Marshall, Payne, Olding and Cave for 4 positions, Darren has to miss out IMO. And he doesn't even give us versatility on the bench...

  

In my perfect world we would stop waiting for Payne to be IQ, and Henshaw can take 13 this year for Ireland. When Olding is back and if he shows what he has at 13 I would love to see him be 13 for Ireland also, with Henshaw moving to 15 (his best position in my opinion). That gives Ulster the right to keep Payne at 15 where he should be, while keeping Ireland's backline juicy with a 12 - Marshal, 13 - Olding/Henshaw 15- Henshaw/Kearney setup.

Standulstermen wrote:Well not really Notch. The shirt is Marshall's. Olding
( if he is to be at 12) has to take it off him. I do suspect that the coaches may be mulling over a Marshall/Olding combination although the form factor will come into the mix. I don't want to continue shifting Olding about though

The guys a special talent. If the coaches settle on 12 as his best position, Marshalls days are numbered. Marshall may well end up at 13 for Ulster and Ireland.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Just wondering, having went to school with Stuart, do people really think he is a once in a generation player?  At school he was a pretty good player, but not really anything special (unlike Hendy).  He seems to have absolutely took off since leaving though, and to be honest I am quite shocked he has been so good.  He wasn't ever known for his pace, but he looks a lot quicker now than he ever did at school.

Maybe he just looked slow because you were running so fast Rory! .....   

Genuinely he wasn't that quick haha he played at 7 until he was about 16 as well. Moved to the backs at that point.

Always had that killer step though.

Notch wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Well not really Notch. The shirt is Marshall's. Olding
( if he is to be at 12) has to take it off him. I do suspect that the coaches may be mulling over a Marshall/Olding combination although the form factor will come into the mix. I don't want to continue shifting Olding about though

The guys a special talent. If the coaches settle on 12 as his best position, Marshalls days are numbered. Marshall may well end up at 13 for Ulster and Ireland.

A bit ridiculous to say Marshall's days are numbered. He is a great player himself and will continue to improve at 12. I really do not see him moving anytime soon. It is his shirt to lose, for Ulster and soon for Ireland.

Yep. Hard to say what will happen but I think Olding will be a star wherever he lands

I'm really struggling to get my head around this - People seem reluctant to assume Payne will be 13 for Ireland. Do people honestly think Henshaw or Olding can do better at 13 than Jared Payne next season???

Or that Payne will relegate Rob Kearney to the bench to accommodate Henshaw/Olding at 13?? Rob Kearney the 2012 ERC Player of the Year.

Olding and Kearney are great and all but Paybe is arguably the best player in Ireland at the minute.

If Ireland want him to be a 13, then neither Marshall or Olding will be a 13 - or at least not unless they surpass him.

Payne will play 13 for Ireland the odd time, but I can't see him being moved from 15 in the big games for Ulster. No province has been dictated too about where a player plays in the major games. We'll have to play Payne at 13 the occasional time in the league in the run-up to international windows but to be honest the coaches would have to be clean mental to move him from fullback full time. He's probably the best fullback in Europe right now.

Notch wrote:Payne will play 13 for Ireland the odd time, but I can't see him being moved from 15 in the big games for Ulster. No province has been dictated too about where a player plays in the major games. We'll have to play Payne at 13 the occasional time in the league in the run-up to international windows but to be honest the coaches would have to be clean mental to move him from fullback full time. He's probably the best fullback in Europe right now.

Yea but It's fairly common for the player themselves to make requests positionally that benefit his international prospects. Have you considered Payne sees an opening at 13 for Ireland whilst at 15 he has stiff competition from a guy who is very talented (despite not showing it so much lately) in Rob Kearney.

At Olding's age, with his versatility I believe it makes best sense to say Payne to 13, and stuart - lets make you a damn good 15. (I don't have high hopes for Nelson or Andrew anyways). I think this is the best solution in th medium to long term for both Ulster and Ireland.

Ah no, come on. A player whose best position is fullback should move to centre so we can move a player whose best position is centre to fullback?

Notch wrote:Ah no, come on. A player whose best position is fullback should move to centre so we can move a player whose best position is centre to fullback?

It only sounds dumb if you assume each player is equally talented in the positions, or ignore their ages and point in their career journey. Payne is a better centre now than Olding. When payne becaomes IQ, he will still be a better centre than Olding. Besides, we are talking 13 - How much has Olding played 13 an club level? I don't remember him playing anywhere other than 12. Lets not pretend he's an established anything just yet. Payne is a world class 13 and Ireland need a new world class 13 in a few months.

Olding effectivly will have a bit of starting over to do, why not decide he's a 15 - he's young, versatile and shows tonnes of promise.

To be honest, I don't see Olding as a 13 in any way whatsoever. Thats kool-aid I'm not drinking. He's a 12. The most promising 12 we've seen in this country since D'Arcy burst onto the scene.

Why not 15? Because he's better suited to 12 to be honest. He's much better at finding space and creating opportunities for the men around him than fielding the high ball and kicking for territory. He's a very good option at 15 in games where we have loads of the ball and he can join the line at will but everything about his game screams inside centre. Why does their need to be a better reason than that? Also, why keep Payne at 15? Because it's his best position! Payne will likely move between 13 and 15 for club and country, but he's already 28. There's no sense in messing around a 21-year old who can play for Ulster for the next 15 years to accommodate him, and that goes for Luke Marshall too. Those two will still be playing international rugby when he's retired so you'd want to think very long and hard before moving a player with less years left in the tank into a position where any partnership between the two is broken up.

But if Payne does move to 13, it'll be Luke Marshall who misses out. Once Olding makes the breakthrough he may well have to adapt to moving outside long term although I can see them playing left and right. It would be a bloody shame to break that up so we can move a guy from his best position to a weaker one.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out a way to see all our best backline players all play.

To me the best backs are (based on 1st half of season)

Jackson
Gilroy
Marshall
Payne
Trimble
Olding

---------
Cave
Bowe (in fairness, Bowe/Trimble/Gilroy is always going to be a form call)
Allen

I think it would be poor team management if a huge prospect like Marshall became a benchwarmer with Cave being nailed on (no disrespect to Darren - but he's not international class).

I would agree with notch except I think Olding can play 13. He can play anywhere truth be told. He played 13 outside Farrell at the JRWC I believe a couple of years back although not in the big games. Nelson is young yet but I'm not seeing a development from him on the rare occasion he makes a squad.

Cave, Olding and Marshall will rota 12 and 13 next year with Olding being the player switching between the two positions.

With rest, injuries, call ups no one will lose out much

The rise of Olding means Ulster are not that interested in playing Payne at 13 and will only do so under instruction (One reason why I see Payne as an Ireland 15 rather than 13 - he will not be playing 13 for his Province). Olding's rise means that now Ulster are viewing this differently.

Olding will not be backing up 10 - we are activitly looking for a new backup who will be IQ

Notch wrote:To be honest, I don't see Olding as a 13 in any way whatsoever. Thats kool-aid I'm not drinking. He's a 12. The most promising 12 we've seen in this country since D'Arcy burst onto the scene.

D'arcy burst on to the scene as a 13 (converted from the wing).

I think the 15 thing is a non starter, he looked good there but he's too small to be anything but a makeshift fullback imo.

However to me the same applies to 12. If you play a distributing 10 like Jackson who stands fairly flat, the next man in the line needs to be able to take the ball into contact in attack - otherwise everything becomes too lateral.

Marshall is to me the perfect foil for Jackson because he has the physicality to take the short pass and break the gain line and also drop back and offer an extra kicking option when needed. I don't see why anyone would want to break up that combination any time soon. Both are improving as is their partnership.

So assuming the starting point for the debate is that Jackson - Marshall is the ideal 10-12 combo for Ulster, then you are looking at Olding pushing for the 13 or 15 slot if everyone is fit. So the 2 questions are:

a) Where are we strongest currently
b) What is his best position from the 2.

For me the answer to both depends on Payne - where he plays we are stronger and where he doesn't we are weaker. Lets assume, as the consensus (which I don't entirely agree with) is that Payne is better at 15.... then that leaves 13 as the most likely position for Olding to establish himself - although as Geoff says Marshall will be in and out, as will Payne so he will likely cover a number of positions as required.

Discussing Olding's best position is only part of the debate - it might be 10 or 12 but he also has to fit into the side. As good as Cave is to me he's the most likely to be usurped so if Olding is to be more than a utility back in the near future I think it will be at Cave's expense.

That said its a squad game now, everyone will get games and those who are versatile will get more than others.

Furthermore I'd also say that if Olding does play 12, this works better with Payne outside at 13 -  as Payne offers a more physical and elusive presence and the ability to break the line, than Cave.

Had hoped for some good news transfer-wise going into the weekend. Humph seemed to have a Fergie-esque quality of announcing contract news prior to big games to give everyone a lift. Leinster got theirs this morning. I assume we just aren't that close.

Who did Leinster sign?

O'Brien is staying.

If Geoff says Payne won’t be a regular 13 for Ulster then thats my argumentt over, but like I said earlier, and Rodders agrees - Cave is the man to miss out.

But let’s not forget we also have another extra back line player who is worthy of starting - We have Trimble/Bowe/Gilroy for two wing spots.

Undeniably, Andrew and Nelson are way off the pace for backup 15s and I’m unsure if either of them will make the standard required as they develop. I would almost even prefer Paddy Wallace as backup 15.

We need a better backup 15 - so we need to at least know other players can do a job there - either Gilroy or Olding - they need game time at 15.

We have to think about what the team will be in the International window next year

We will lose Jackson, Marshall, Olding, Payne, Gilroy and Bowe I reckon
That leaves a backline of Pienaer, new 10, Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Allen, Scholes?

Not to shabby - I don't think they have given up on Nelson yet but he needs to kick on.
I agree a D'Arcy level player would be useful

No announcements this week but one on the way next I believe  

Standulstermen wrote:O'Brien is staying.

Wow either he's failed a medical or the IRFU have raided their Caman Islands funds...

Ah Geoff you're nothing but a tease, can you not just give a few cryptic clues when you say something like that

I believe Olding is an extremely talented inside centre, the like of which is rarely seen and would love to see what he could do with Payne at 13, the two of them swapping between the two positions etc. The idea of all that creativity together is mouth watering. It could also fall flat on it's face mind you but I am dying to see if it could thrive. We have a wealth of talent but it all means nothing if the team can't be given time to settle and gel. Something that seems to be part of the problem at the moment. I reckon the trip to Welford Road is the catalyst required for some serious gelling mind you.....and I don't mean Craig Gilroy's hair

Anyway, ramble over, Ulster are heading for a bright future IMO, if only all this Euromess can sort itself out then I'll be a happy camper.

Pete330v2 wrote:Ah Geoff you're nothing but a tease, can you not just give a few cryptic clues when you say something like that

I've gone as far as looking at the outhalves in super 15 squads with irish sounding surnames. Clutching at straws doesn't even begin to describe it!

Come on Geoff! Give/get us something!

Surely if an IQ prop is on the cards, and its not one currently playing in Ireland, Ruaidhri Murphy's name has to be in the mix.

Hot or cold Geoff?

Too many positions need signed to speculate Clive.

Guys the only maybe , and it is a maybe, is a NIQ Lock and I can't say who at this moment.
Top player though - replacing Muller is seen as absolutely the top priority re new signings (I am convinced he is going)

On the TH position I am not expecting fireworks, or indeed at LH.
They will be both IQ or the TH might be a Project type player.
I understand the LH is further advanced but not heard any names.

I have to say things seemed to have tightened up at Ravenhill this year much harder to get information.

The announcement I am expecting next week has nothing to do with the above - make of that what you will.

I also go back to what I said a few weeks back - 5 signings targeted

Marquee - Lock, Backrow
IQ/Project - 10, 1,3

? Coach????

Anscombe future?   

You may be correct I could not possible comment

If we retain anscombe any chance we will pick up Gareth
.........

Backup 10 and full back cover sorted then!!! He might not want to leave the current Super Rugby champs to be backup though  

On the Anscombe front I am surprised to see how many people would be happy if he went.

Standulstermen wrote:If we retain anscombe any chance we will pick up Gareth
.........

Backup 10 and full back cover sorted then!!! He might not want to leave the current Super Rugby champs to be backup though  

On the Anscombe front I am surprised to see how many people would be happy if he went.

I agree Stand - All things considered, 5 out of 5 in Europe is as good as you can hope for. Sure league isn't as good as last year but injuries didn't help that. I like the guy personally.

Well he has completed one season and we won our Heineken group which we hadn't done previously and topped the league albeit narrowly missing out in the final. He did all this without our best player.

Just going back to LHs the young lad McCall should nearly be ready to come in. As I recall he had the much talked about Martin Moore in a bit of bother in pre season. He could be a nice surprise next season. I know the young lad Taylor did well at the JRWC at TH but having seen him against Jersey I think his scrummaging still needs work. Very mobile player though

On the young Anscombe front there is one key fact.

Has he made himself illegible to ever play for Ireland through representative appearance.
If so no chance if not could be.

Does anyone know?

Standulstermen wrote:I would move Olding out to 13 but I would be open to shifting Marshall. I think Olding would benefit more from the space (slightly more than at 12) that 13 presents whilst I don't think it necessarily would curtail his playmaking ability. The reality is if Olding and Marshall developed an understanding they could interchange a lot. 12's need to be able to truck it up though and I'm not sure Olding could at the top level. Remains to be seen though.

I would like to see a ...

Pienaar, Jackson, Bowe, Marshall,  Olding, Trimble, Payne backline. Given we then have Gilroy and Allen and Cave backing up that's pretty good. Would be brilliant if Nelson and Farrell stepped up though

Agree SU. Olding has a better skillset for a 13 than 12 because of his size. He has great acceleration and step to exploit gaps, but more importantly has the wherewithal to choose the right one and that can release the wings better than anything.

Payne should stay at FB because his more languid style of running is more suited there. Jared is good enough to be picked at 15 for Ireland irrespective of the competition, and that level of competition is a good spur.

Honestly haven't a clue Geoff. I wasn't being serious anyway. Would a young man of that calibre seriously come to be a back up? I think not.

I agree Aukster. I think if Payne were eligible for Ireland in February he would be starting over Kearney

geoff999rugby wrote:On the young Anscombe front there is one key fact.

Has he made himself illegible to ever play for Ireland through representative appearance.
If so no chance if not could be.

Does anyone know?

He has played for the Baby Blacks, and isn't that New Zealand's second team? Therefore he is NIQ and can't qualify as a project. Unless I'm mistaken.

That's what I believe to be true but wasn't sure

I have not heard him mentioned, by anyone significant, and if NIQ no way anyway.
To be honest seen so little of him to judge ability

If Anscombe goes, I go.

geoff999rugby wrote:That's what I believe to be true but wasn't sure

I have not heard him mentioned, by anyone significant, and if NIQ no way anyway.
To be honest seen so little of him to judge ability

Google just cleared something interesting for me.

The Junior All-Blacks are NZs second side. Baby Anscombe has been capped by the NZ U20s - This is a different team. Wiki does not mention him playing for the Juniors....

  

I had no idea he was so out of favour. At the time of his Da getting the job, I thought he was a huge prospect in NZ, but neither Blues or Chiefs have really given him much of a chance.

His contract does end with the S15 season in August.....

He started plenty for the chiefs Clive, in fact didn't he start the Super Rugby final, albeit at 15. He was injured for a bit but he resurrected his career somewhat at the chiefs

Ah now surely the IRFU wont allow Ulster to sign a very good player who just happens to be the coaches son in a position where they want Jackson to be starting as much as possible.