Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

One guy I think deserves high praise from these two Treviso games is Sean Doyle.
As you know I reported some doubt about his future and that he needed to put his hand - he has done so big time.

Few more games like that and he will be with us next year for sure.

Standulstermen wrote:He started plenty for the chiefs Clive, in fact didn't he start the Super Rugby final, albeit at 15. He was injured for a bit but he resurrected his career somewhat at the chiefs

He's also preferred to Cruden when it comes to place kicking

Can't see a player who starts for the super rugby champions coming over here to be backup 10 and 15 Golden don't worry.

Yes, its all speculation and no real basis. Besides I'm sure he must have played for the Juniors, but Wiki doesn't list it. I'd be surprised if he never play Juniors.

But there was a serious amount of media chatter about him coming here a year or two back - from both New Zealand and here..

Golden you are correct nobody will be signed who would usurp Jacksons place.

Having said that didn't stop Leinster doing the same thing this year   

rodders wrote:However to me the same applies to 12. If you play a distributing 10 like Jackson who stands fairly flat, the next man in the line needs to be able to take the ball into contact in attack - otherwise everything becomes too lateral.

To be honest I'd much rather have the crash ball centre at 13 to set up rucks in the wider channels. Give me a hard-running, physical 13 and a skilful, tricky, creative 12 every single day of the week.

I'm convinced Irelands midfield partnership long term will be Jackson and Olding.

All the more reason to stop Ulster.   

Has McKinney been that bad? I think I've only seen him in two games. One of them he bossed and was pretty good and the other he was poor. But seen as how Ulster have Jackson, Pienaar, Wallace and Olding not to mind McKinney who can play ten do you really need another? 

How long has Wallace got before he retires btw?

Gareth Anscombe is exactly the quality of player Ulster should be looking to sign...

However I would be astounded if Humphreys was so naive to do so. There are enough questionable accusations fly around when things go wrong without adding nepotism to the list. It would be an untenable situation for both coach and player so it can't be allowed to happen - just NO!

Golden wrote:All the more reason to stop Ulster.   

Has McKinney been that bad? I think I've only seen him in two games. One of them he bossed and was pretty good and the other he was poor. But seen as how Ulster have Jackson, Pienaar, Wallace and Olding not to mind McKinney who can play ten do you really need another? 

How long has Wallace got before he retires btw?

McKinney other than one game has been poor - also his attitude has had something to be desired.
Think of the International we will lose an entire backline 10 to15 (at least)
Pienaer we want to keep at 9
Olding we want to only play centre except in dire emergency.
Wallace, probably has a 1 year to go - maybe stay on over the World Cup as cover.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:However to me the same applies to 12. If you play a distributing 10 like Jackson who stands fairly flat, the next man in the line needs to be able to take the ball into contact in attack - otherwise everything becomes too lateral.

To be honest I'd much rather have the crash ball centre at 13 to set up rucks in the wider channels. Give me a hard-running, physical 13 and a skilful, tricky, creative 12 every single day of the week.

I'm convinced Irelands midfield partnership long term will be Jackson and Olding.

The problem with rucks in the wider channels is

a) its harder to cross the gainline
b) it takes longer for the support to arrive so you are more likely to be turned over or penalised.

Can you give any recent examples of such partnerships?

Also the 'crash ball' centre ended with Kevin Maggs I thought, didn't realise such a player existed these days.

Distribution and vision is vital in a 12 but so increasingly is size and physicality which makes Marshall such a great all round player to have - he can do it all (except long pass off his left hand ..).

I think it will be someone of Herring/Diack/D'Arcy standard - who became very solid players, but remember - none of them were even in S15 squads before Ulster (I don't think).

SO... I'm happy to be underwhelmed with the 10, and the backrower and to an extent the props - as long as I'm over the moon by the lock. Andries Bekker. please and thankyou.

Golden wrote:Has McKinney been that bad? I think I've only seen him in two games. One of them he bossed and was pretty good and the other he was poor.

McKinney has plenty of talent as he has shown already, but he may not have as much as he thinks he has.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:However to me the same applies to 12. If you play a distributing 10 like Jackson who stands fairly flat, the next man in the line needs to be able to take the ball into contact in attack - otherwise everything becomes too lateral.

To be honest I'd much rather have the crash ball centre at 13 to set up rucks in the wider channels. Give me a hard-running, physical 13 and a skilful, tricky, creative 12 every single day of the week.

I'm convinced Irelands midfield partnership long term will be Jackson and Olding.

The problem with rucks in the wider channels is

a) its harder to cross the gainline
b) it takes longer for the support to arrive so you are more likely to be turned over or penalised.

Can you give any recent examples of such partnerships?

Also the 'crash ball' centre ended with Kevin Maggs I thought, didn't realise such a player existed these days.

Distribution and vision is vital in a 12 but so increasingly is size and physicality which makes Marshall such a great all round player to have - he can do it all (except long pass off his left hand ..).

Fofana and Rougerie. Classic example- see also Giteau and Bastareud. For goodness sake, Paddy Wallace and Nevin Spence very successfully for Ulster in the past! Olding is a very similar player to Fofana- in that both make yards they have no right to make and can create major line breaks from congested areas of the pitch. Thats what makes it work. For all his supposed lack of physicality Olding will make serious yards from 12. Fofana and Giteau do take the crash ball on and make yards because they are smart enough and talented enough to be able to take contact on their terms. If we do just need a one-up runner off slow ball its very easy to use 13 for that purpose, the two centres can dovetail and interchange a lot. The numbers they were aren't necessarily the be all and end all.

I actually think we overuse Marshall on the crash ball and look more balanced with Olding at centre because that very predictable crash ball 12 isn't always available to us and we look a much better team as a result. Someone said above Marshall looks much better for Ireland than Ulster because he actually tries to avoid contact with Ireland and I agree. Olding adds a creative edge to our midfield when he's at 12 that makes our backline that bit more potent whereas Marshall I feel is used badly at the moment.

It takes a player of very rare talent at 12 to make that kind of combination work, which is why its uncommon, but we have one so we can look forward to utilising him.

Are you guys talking of which of Marshall and Olding play 12 and which play 13 (long term) or which plays 12 next to someone else?

Which plays 12 and which plays 13, although Payne could also play 13.

Luke Marshall is obviously playing under instruction this season. He is making yards to suck in defenders rather than 'beat' them, allowing the back three to run cross-field lines. Isn't it better to tie up two or three rather than just beat one! That may be a waste of his talent for Ulster but with ball carriers like Williams, Henderson and Afoa missing for most of the season someone has had to create a focal point for the attack. It is far better that the inside centre does this as he is far less likely to get isolated from his support.
Marshall ties in a defence in much the same way that D'Arcy used to do when he made yards, Olding has the vision to exploit the gaps created, hopefully in much the same way O'Driscoll used to do - now there's a template for success.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Golden wrote:Has McKinney been that bad? I think I've only seen him in two games. One of them he bossed and was pretty good and the other he was poor.

McKinney has plenty of talent as he has shown already, but he may not have as much as he thinks he has.

I think that sums it up nicely - I can think of another player in the squad who has an inflated opinion of himself - McCormish

clivemcl wrote:I think it will be someone of Herring/Diack/D'Arcy standard - who became very solid players, but remember - none of them were even in S15 squads before Ulster (I don't think).

Clive I think you are right it is that sort of player I am expecting for 1, 3 and 10.
If they kick on as well as Herring and Diack we would be delighted
Lock will be top dollar and I think we may well be pleasently surprised re backrower.

I’d be pleasantly surprised by Heaslip.

Notch wrote:
Fofana and Rougerie. Classic example- see also Giteau and Bastareud.

Fofana is much bigger and more powerful than Olding. Gitau and Basteraud works because Toulon are a forward orientated team who bludgeon the opposition - totally different to the game we are trying to play.

I think Marshall is playing excellent, mature rugby for Ulster - I don't agree that he's performing better for Ireland.

I think marshall is playing well but I also believe he can be used better.

Notch made a good case for Olding at 12 and in truth I agree the lad will start whatever position he finds. Im still not certain what will happen though. This is Marshalls longest run in the first team without injury (touch wood) so I think we will see a big improvement next season as well. Olding will need to make his mark and I fully expect him too. Whoever plays 13 will need to displace Cave which, considering the job he does defensively for us will be easier said than done.

I could see Cave leaving if he isn't first choice.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, he obviously feels he isn't getting Test recognition, and if he ends up behind Olding then that dream would be completely gone. Given his friendship with Earls, it wouldn't be that surprising if he made a move south, to try to recreate himself in a different environment.

Standulstermen wrote:He started plenty for the chiefs Clive, in fact didn't he start the Super Rugby final, albeit at 15. He was injured for a bit but he resurrected his career somewhat at the chiefs

He'll have some extra competition this year. Chiefs have added Mils Muliana & Tom Marshall to their ranks and Robbie Robinson will return from injury.
Itaia West's signing means he is not guaranteed starting time either @ 10 in Cruden's absence.

McKinney has not made the grade.
Olding is a much better centre than FH.
Pienaar should stay @ 9.
Payne could be tried @ 13.
We need an experienced place kicker during the Test periods.
Anscombe prefers FH but has developed as a competent 15.
Good value buy for another club..

Standulstermen wrote:Notch made a good case for Olding at 12 and in truth I agree the lad will start whatever position he finds.

I agree - honestly I'm happy whoever plays, such is the competition. A year ago I would categorically say Olding is better than Marshall - however such has been then improvement in Marshalls game I think he is fundamental now for Ulster alongside Jackson...an injury or loss of form could turn that on its head but that's the beauty of having so much quality and talent..... re: Aukster's posts I feel for Cave, who is a quality player - Payne and Bowe are for me the only 100% starters in the outside backs.

Given Internationals and Injuries and Rotation to keep players sharp I don't think people should get over concerned about who plays where.

Marshall, Olding and Cave will all get plenty of game time, as centers, next year and probably the one after.

geoff999rugby wrote:Given Internationals and Injuries and Rotation to keep players sharp I don't think people should get over concerned about who plays where.

Marshall, Olding and Cave will all get plenty of game time, as centers, next year and probably the one after.

Totally agree...that's presuming we have some competitions to play in Geoff! The <insert sponsor here> Pro 4 might offer limited opportunities for game time!

It's a bit of a worry that I hope comes to nothing but a limited european campaign and the renamed Irish Rabo Pro4 is not an impossible future with the way things are going with the greed merchants taking over rugby union. I worry about who we can retain and who could we possibly attract in this uncertain climate.......ah it's just me worrying far too much. Take no notice.

Well Sean O'Brien was keen to play in the pro 4 so it must have some merit!

Exactly we have signed Pienaer and Best to name but 2 this year.
Would not have done so without a lot of confidence on what they will be doing next year

The goalposts constantly seem to be changing though so who we play will be interesting. In truth the whole thing would probably be sorted but for the welsh mess.

It's calming words like that I need more often. I know we have our big names who have signed etc but it's five years down the line I think about.
As you said Stand, this will all be sorted out. I only care that Ulster are playing in the biggest and toughest games each and every season because whether there are highs or lows it's always great to be an Ulster fan.

The matches will be there but the quality of the opposition is a concern.

We will have a Pro10 and probably a Pro12.
However the Welsh teams could be very poor and add them to the Italians does not make much of a contest

Assuming an ERC competition goes ahead the 6 French teams may be second rate and/or not take it seriously.
Without the English as well again not much of spectacle

That would be my big worry - only Munster, Leinster and to a lesser degree the Scottish teams providing competitive opposition

Not sure if anyone watches BT sport but it looks like they are courting the Scottish teams now.....

How so Rodders?

Just noticed the Ravens have a game tonight. Rory Scholes back (I presume he was injured) and that young lad Lorcan Dow starting at 7. Also Kyle McCall starting at LH.

They were doing a behind the scenes feature on the Glasgow V Edinburgh game followed by some analysis by the panel on the Scottish game on that rugby show the other night. The inference from the host, Bayfield, seemed to suggest they'd be doing more regular pieces on the near future.... previously BT seemed to pretend like nothing existed outside the AP and Top14.... perhaps they are planning to pounce on the Rabo, or aspects of it...??

There were rumours but they also sponsor both the Scottish teams anyway

Yes, they are moving to sponsor all the Pro12 sides except the Italians. It's not a surprise that they want to raise their profile as it'll be good for them to get exposure.

Anyway, there's a game on tomorrow!

Ulster XV and replacements to face Leicester Tigers, Heineken Cup, Welford Road, Saturday 18th January (kick off 18:00):

(15-9) J Payne, A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, C Gilroy, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): C Black, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (Captain), D Tuohy, R Wilson, C Henry, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): R Herring, T Court, R Lutton, I Henderson, R Diack, P Marshall, D McIlwaine, M Allen.

Two big calls- Williams over Diack and Black in the loose head shirt. Black is in for his scrummaging, and this kick up the hole will hopefully encourage Court to find some half-decent form.

Diack unluckily loses out as we go for the most physical back row we can put out arguably.

Standulstermen wrote:There were rumours but they also sponsor both the Scottish teams anyway

... and Ulster!

I'm guessing Diack is getting a well earned rest! - but yes looks like we've gone for physicality...

Great to see big Nick back though, we need him firing on all cylinders before the business end of the season.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There were rumours but they also sponsor both the Scottish teams anyway

... and Ulster!

Aye but not the main sponsor

What rumours stand?

There was an article in the Irish times (I think) that they were in talks with all the provinces regarding being the main sponsor. Sort of a two fingers up to sky but nothing ever came of it

Ah ok... I just thought the sudden interest in the Rabo league was interesting...maybe nothing. I just wonder if they are trying to get the Scots on board with their European comp.

My gut feeling is that a British and Irish comp is kind of close or rather agreed and we are waiting to see if the French will join.

If Anscombe getting an extension is not announced this week I would be very surprised

Aye it will depend on how long it is. I think he has done enough for a couple of years, will he be offered it?

I think Anscombe is a given - especially after the weekend and the stepping up of players under his management.

I'd far rather hear about player news!

2 years for Ancombe would be a good time frame.

He's made a very positive impact no doubt about it. He's built upon the results and spirit we had under McLaughlin and has us playing much more positive rugby...most importantly he's introduced much better squad rotation which not only has brought the fringe players on dramatically it has allowed us to be much more consistent and competitive on 2 fronts.

Silverware is the next step.... whether Anscombe can get us winning something I don't know but we are regularly in the latter stages of all competitions, and winning big games home and away, so that's good enough to earn a new contract for me.

How far we have travelled

Consider where the province sat this time six years ago: Ulster turned into 2008 having lost back-to-back Heineken Cup ties with Ospreys and shipped 29 points without reply in the Christmas inter-pro at the RDS. They were bottom of the Celtic League. They had never won in England, never won in France.

Now we've done both in one season and its not even the knockout stages   

Anscombes away record in Europe; 2 out of 2 in France, 2 out of 3 in England, 6 out of 7 overall

I see the journalists are all wetting themselves over Pienaar's performance on the weekend.