Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

One guy I think deserves high praise from these two Treviso games is Sean Doyle.
As you know I reported some doubt about his future and that he needed to put his hand - he has done so big time.

Few more games like that and he will be with us next year for sure.

Yeah, it would have been a travesty had we not won. As far as the TMO decisions went the Henderson one a) wasn't shown on the big screen and b) was called back after the try had been awarded so had we contrived to lose from there there would have been some 12000 very, very unhappy Ulster fans!

I'll have to see it replayed before I judge on it, but I think it stinks a ref can award the try and then reverse his decision. If you're going to use the TMO, use it before you award the try.

I'm not sure if Owens awarded the try then suddenly noticed tghe ball was not there.

Not ideal to change his mind but I think it was the correct decision in the end. Remember Clancy doing the same last season after the final whistle but that time the TMO ruled in our favour.

MrsP wrote:I'm not sure if Owens awarded the try then suddenly noticed tghe ball was not there.

Not ideal to change his mind but I think it was the correct decision in the end. Remember Clancy doing the same last season after the final whistle but that time the TMO ruled in our favour.

Clancy caved in to Plug jabbering in his ear, if I remember right. I think awarding a try, and then going to TMO needs to be looked at. If the ref's have the slightest doubt then go to the TMO. If they are certain, then award it, and stick to that decision. This awarding try's, and then going to the TMO after, isn't good for the game   

Gripe over   

It would have been a travesty to let a try stand when the ball had been stripped though.

I'm happy enough that the right decision was made.

MrsP wrote:It would have been a travesty to let a try stand when the ball had been stripped though.

I'm happy enough that the right decision was made.

It happens though. All sides have wrong decisions go against them at some time. The fault here is with the ref's. If they're not certain of a try then they shouldn't award it. Awarding it, and then deciding to go to the TMO looks amateur, and takes away from the enjoyment of the game....


...unless it happens to the other team   

Disagree with most of the above. I haven't seen the tv footage yet, but in real life Pienaar was the difference between winning and losing. He put in at least two try saving tackles, kicked well for position and his positioning in defence was immaculate.
Ospreys should have won this game if they hadn't a few individual glory hunters. At least twice maybe three times they had easy overlaps if the player had passed (particularly Walker). Thankfully they didn't and they lost.

The wind shouldn't be discounted either as it was with the Os in the first half but was swirling and had almost turned in the second half.

For the Os Sam Davies looks like a real prospect as does Sam Lewis, with Morgan not far behind. OTOH Dunc Jones has had his day and Bearman, Tebaldi and Fussell aren't far behind.

Ulster just about deserved the win despite getting nothing from the ref. and falling off tackles all night. I have defended McKinney up to now but he has used up his last credit with me, Andrew's balance has also gone down but not as much as Allan's.
I'll watch the game on tv over the w/e to see why others thought Pienaar was so bad.

The Great Aukster wrote:Disagree with most of the above. I haven't seen the tv footage yet, but in real life Pienaar was the difference between winning and losing. He put in at least two try saving tackles, kicked well for position and his positioning in defence was immaculate.
Ospreys should have won this game if they hadn't a few individual glory hunters. At least twice maybe three times they had easy overlaps if the player had passed (particularly Walker). Thankfully they didn't and they lost.

The wind shouldn't be discounted either as it was with the Os in the first half but was swirling and had almost turned in the second half.

For the Os Sam Davies looks like a real prospect as does Sam Lewis, with Morgan not far behind. OTOH Dunc Jones has had his day and Bearman, Tebaldi and Fussell aren't far behind.

Ulster just about deserved the win despite getting nothing from the ref. and falling off tackles all night. I have defended McKinney up to now but he has used up his last credit with me, Andrew's balance has also gone down but not as much as Allan's.
I'll watch the game on tv over the w/e to see why others thought Pienaar was so bad.

Who are you disagreeing with   

Munchkin wrote:

MrsP wrote:It would have been a travesty to let a try stand when the ball had been stripped though.

I'm happy enough that the right decision was made.

It happens though. All sides have wrong decisions go against them at some time. The fault here is with the ref's. If they're not certain of a try then they shouldn't award it. Awarding it, and then deciding to go to the TMO looks amateur, and takes away from the enjoyment of the game....


...unless it happens to the other team   

Look, Owens misses the rip - he sees Hnderson go down, awards the try. Immediately though he realises that Tibaldi or another Osprey player is holding the ball which he thought was underneath Henderson. of course he goes to TMO. Good call from owens.

clivemcl wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

MrsP wrote:It would have been a travesty to let a try stand when the ball had been stripped though.

I'm happy enough that the right decision was made.

It happens though. All sides have wrong decisions go against them at some time. The fault here is with the ref's. If they're not certain of a try then they shouldn't award it. Awarding it, and then deciding to go to the TMO looks amateur, and takes away from the enjoyment of the game....


...unless it happens to the other team   

Look, Owens misses the rip - he sees Hnderson go down, awards the try. Immediately though he realises that Tibaldi or another Osprey player is holding the ball which he thought was underneath Henderson. of course he goes to TMO. Good call from owens.

So he doesn't actually see the ball grounded, yet awards the try? I don't think ref's giving a try, and then changing their mind is great for the game. It's my opinion. Nothing else. You disagree, that's fine.

I happen to think Owens is a good ref. I just don't like ref's giving try's, and then going to TMO.

Any win in those conditions isn't too be sniffed at but generally thought the Ospreys showed better skill levels and probably should have won. That said those 2 TMO calls were incredibly close and the penalty Owens, who's the best ref around, gave against Allen to that tackle was bizarre.

Not great but a win is a win - my MOTM award goes to all the supporters who stood out in that rain..   

Munchkin wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

MrsP wrote:It would have been a travesty to let a try stand when the ball had been stripped though.

I'm happy enough that the right decision was made.

It happens though. All sides have wrong decisions go against them at some time. The fault here is with the ref's. If they're not certain of a try then they shouldn't award it. Awarding it, and then deciding to go to the TMO looks amateur, and takes away from the enjoyment of the game....


...unless it happens to the other team   

Look, Owens misses the rip - he sees Hnderson go down, awards the try. Immediately though he realises that Tibaldi or another Osprey player is holding the ball which he thought was underneath Henderson. of course he goes to TMO. Good call from owens.

So he doesn't actually see the ball grounded, yet awards the try? I don't think ref's giving a try, and then changing their mind is great for the game. It's my opinion. Nothing else. You disagree, that's fine.

I happen to think Owens is a good ref. I just don't like ref's giving try's, and then going to TMO.

I know where you are coming from - but it happens all the time with mauls over the line. You would take the maul out of the game entirely if you didn't give grounding of the ball the benefit of doubt. Refs also quite often ask TMO 'Is there any reason I should NOT award the try'. Which is pretty much saying "Its a try unless you can clearly see theres an arm under the ball etc...

As long as refs change their mind to the RIGHT decision, I don't see the issue. A good argument might be that refs shouldn't get caught up in the drama of the occasion, and should take a moment before putting lips to whistle.

clivemcl wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

MrsP wrote:It would have been a travesty to let a try stand when the ball had been stripped though.

I'm happy enough that the right decision was made.

It happens though. All sides have wrong decisions go against them at some time. The fault here is with the ref's. If they're not certain of a try then they shouldn't award it. Awarding it, and then deciding to go to the TMO looks amateur, and takes away from the enjoyment of the game....


...unless it happens to the other team   

Look, Owens misses the rip - he sees Hnderson go down, awards the try. Immediately though he realises that Tibaldi or another Osprey player is holding the ball which he thought was underneath Henderson. of course he goes to TMO. Good call from owens.

So he doesn't actually see the ball grounded, yet awards the try? I don't think ref's giving a try, and then changing their mind is great for the game. It's my opinion. Nothing else. You disagree, that's fine.

I happen to think Owens is a good ref. I just don't like ref's giving try's, and then going to TMO.

I know where you are coming from - but it happens all the time with mauls over the line. You would take the maul out of the game entirely if you didn't give grounding of the ball the benefit of doubt. Refs also quite often ask TMO 'Is there any reason I should NOT award the try'. Which is pretty much saying "Its a try unless you can clearly see theres an arm under the ball etc...

As long as refs change their mind to the RIGHT decision, I don't see the issue. A good argument might be that refs shouldn't get caught up in the drama of the occasion, and should take a moment before putting lips to whistle.

It's fine ref's going to TMO to ask if there's any reason they can't award a try. That's what TMO's are for. Generally speaking they don't award the try's first before going to TMO though.

On a very disappointing note, it appears Tuohy has a broken arm. Arrggghhhh!!!!

Thats terrible for Ulster and most of all for him just as he was establishing himself in the Ireland frame properly.

neilthom7 wrote:Thats terrible for Ulster and most of all for him just as he was establishing himself in the Ireland frame properly.

It is, neil. Gutted for the guy. Reading his recent interview, you get to realise just how much this 6Ns means to him. Misses out on the rest of 6Ns obviously, but hopefully fit in time for the remainder of HEC matches. Olding is another who was very unfortunate, but no doubt he will get his chance to shine, and shine he will.
Hoping that Henderson gets a call up now to the Ireland bench.

Was at a meeting there yesterday with one of the Ulster branch regional coaches listening to some of the grass root strategies that Ulster are introducing.

Probably no great revelations but there is a sentiment that too much of Ulster's recent success is attributable to the South African players specifically and that the club game and general grassroots has not improved over the past decade in line with the pro game. The quality and the depth of players in the academy is something they are concerned about.

Therefore the current set up, and level of success is not deemed sustainable and they are feeling growing pressure to build the player base and get players particularly forwards - part of this is a regional strategy with club coaches, in designated regions, working under Brian Mclaughlin and Allan Clarke to try and produce better standard players and coaching - to try and get the club stream up to the level of the schools and beyond.  

They've brought in some very experienced coaches to work under Brian and Allen so hopefully this well bear fruit over the next few years and more players from outside the traditional big schools will make the grade.

rodders wrote:Was at a meeting there yesterday with one of the Ulster branch regional coaches listening to some of the grass root strategies that Ulster are introducing.

Probably no great revelations but there is a sentiment that too much of Ulster's recent success is attributable to the South African players specifically and that the club game and general grassroots has not improved over the past decade in line with the pro game. The quality and the depth of players in the academy is something they are concerned about.

Therefore the current set up, and level of success is not deemed sustainable and they are feeling growing pressure to build the player base and get players particularly forwards - part of this is a regional strategy with club coaches, in designated regions, working under Brian Mclaughlin and Allan Clarke to try and produce better standard players and coaching - to try and get the club stream up to the level of the schools and beyond.  

They've brought in some very experienced coaches to work under Brian and Allen so hopefully this well bear fruit over the next few years and more players from outside the traditional big schools will make the grade.

I've long maintained that Rugby being the reserve of Protestant Grammar schools is a big problem. You basically have 4 segments of schools in Northern Ireland - Protestant Grammar's , Catholic Grammar's, Protestant Secondary and Catholic Secondary and a tiny number of integrated schools. We need to start getting rugby big in the other segments. The only way we are going to substantially increase the numbers coming through is if we get rugby big in the other schools as at the minute we still seem hugely reliant on a handful of top grammer schools for our players.

I've noticed a big upswing in Gaelic players taking up rugby. My wee brother and his mates are having the opportunities to play and get involved in rugby that I wouldn't even have thought of a few years ago.
There's a lot of cross community work going on and ulster rugby will be all the better for it.

Where's Geoffrey? I'm told the deal for Ruaidhri Murphy might be off. The bugger. Dominoes lads, dominoes. Once one somewhere falls it'll be all go.

Ferris apparently is sucking in so much air during and after training that the rest of the changing room nearly passed out from oxygen deprivation. Ankle seems to be holding up fine. Been trying to find out if he is going to play this weekend but not had it confirmed yet. Unlikely though apparently.

Can't say anyone rushing to sign for us to play in the <unsponsored> semi-pro 11.

Glad to hear Ferris is huffing and puffing around in one piece.

Re: above yeah I think the sentiments about the traditional schools vs non-traditional is not new ground, the important thing is that there is a clear investment and strategy in place now to attempt to not only improve the quality of coaching in the schools but to bridge the gap between the club coaching and the schools system.

It's seen with a sense of urgency because the days of marquee signings are drawing to a close and financially Ulster can't afford for performances to drop when they do so they are feeling the pressure to bring talent through.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Where's Geoffrey?  I'm told the deal for Ruaidhri Murphy might be off.  The bugger.  Dominoes lads, dominoes.  Once one somewhere falls it'll be all go.

Ferris apparently is sucking in so much air during and after training that the rest of the changing room nearly passed out from oxygen deprivation.  Ankle seems to be holding up fine.  Been trying to find out if he is going to play this weekend but not had it confirmed yet.  Unlikely though apparently.  

It could of course be us that called it off. Theres a very baseless rumour about that we 'poached' someone. Which suggest another irish player? Jack McGrath?

What an incredibly stupid way for Tuohy to get injured, probably out of the hec QF...

VinceWLB wrote:What an incredibly stupid way for Tuohy to get injured, probably out of the hec QF...

  

Is there a clever way to get injured?

MrsP wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:What an incredibly stupid way for Tuohy to get injured, probably out of the hec QF...

  

Is there a clever way to get injured?

Of course there isn't but it was stupid and poor technique from Tuohy to dive on the ball like he did, a real shame. He just came on too probably wasn't in the game yet.

If you were taking the long view, you'd have to say every rugby player who picks up any sort of knock is stupid to get injured because they are playing a sport which is based around collisions.

They know what they are getting involved in, they know the risks if they make a mistake, Tuohy is no different.

Do you mean the drop on the ball just before he went off?

I don't think that was when he broke it. About 2 minutes before that he seemed to get his arm hurt in a ruck. He looked like it was sore from then on in and I think he just realised quite how sore it was when he went down on that ball.

Take a look back and see if you agree.

Yep, you are right around the 58 min he is hurting it in a ruck, which is quite strange as he didn't it the ruck that hard...

Doesn't make things look better but im glad it wasn't when he went down to the ball.

I wasn't sure if his arm got trapped or maybe an incoming Welsh player's head might have caught it.

Not sure it's fair to blame poor Dan though.

No we definitely can't blame him, very unlucky.

That said, his technique when taking the ball into contact probably hasn't done his arm any good.

Hook not quite heard that but have heard something more general.

Basically all new signings are up in the air until we know where we stand with respect to the competitions we are playing in next year.
If the uncertaintly continues we could easily lose players who we had lined up.
Maybe Murphy has had enough and has decided to stay in Australia.

This could also be the basis of the resurrection of players moving between provinces.
IRFU stepping to address perceived weaknesses in the senior provinces if we are unable to sign new players.

Basically we need this mess sorted out before we can move forward.

geoff998rugby wrote:Hook not quite heard that but have heard something more general.

Basically all new signings are up in the air until we know where we stand with respect to the competitions we are playing in next year.
If the uncertaintly continues we could easily lose players who we had lined up.
Maybe Murphy has had enough and has decided to stay in Australia.

This could also be the basis of the resurrection of players moving between provinces.
IRFU stepping to address perceived weaknesses in the senior provinces if we are unable to sign new players.

Basically we need this mess sorted out before we can move forward.

Geoff, I've tried to stay clear of those threads for my own sanity. But I am concerned. Is there any idea of when the competitions will be sorted? Are there any planned meetings coming up. Any deadlines? I guess I had just assumed something would be worked out, but this suggestion of it affecting transfers has got me worried and annoyed. Any light at the end of the tunnel?

clive theres a meeting in Paris today to try and sort it out, it seems clubs, regions and unions will all be represented as I'm sure everyone wants to know what will happen one way or another and are being affected like Ulster at the minute

Clive basically it is out of our hands we need the respective Unions and clubs to come to an agreement and sort out the mess

I understand Neil Doak was on the tele yesterday saying basically what I posted.

We are having difficulty attracting players when they don't know what competitions they will be playing in.

If we get a further delay today I have to say I would start be concerned re new players.
Just be thankful we signed so many players in the last few months

Could this affect Anscombes contract as well? Could we see him following Penney? Or is his contract all sorted?

His contract would be sorted. The uncertainty is nearly coming to an end- if the Euro deal under work in Paris today goes ahead, the Welsh regions will remain in the Rabo and a new 20-team European competition will happen.

If it falls through, there will be a less impressive European Cup without the English and a vicious court battle between the WRU and RRW to determine what competitions the Welsh teams will play in- they would be fighting to leave the Pro12 and Heineken Cup- but it seems everyone is increasingly confident that that won't happen.

A deal is very, very close. If it's delivered things will fall into place. The Unions will have to start planning for the end of that deal now though- the PRL won't stop at this.

Hey Geoff, whats the craic with Paddy Mac, is there any sign of him coming back soon, i know he had a set back earlier in the season, also are they still thinking of using him as a tighthead, i saw him recently and he has fairly bulked up. Also are ulster thinking of keeping McComish?

Paddy Mac is recovering but it was one hell of an injury.
My understanding is if it had been an older man it would have been the end of a career.
At this stage they are just thinking of getting him back on the pitch not worrying which side of the scrum at this stage.

McCormish has a contract till the summer of 2015 I think.
I would expect that not to be renewed

It must take some serious will power and dedication for a player to consistently receive bad news regarding fitness and still power on to try and see if they gain fitness again. It must take its tole mentally on these players, we certainly have a few in our squad, Paddy Mac, Deccie Fitz, Paddy Wallace, Stevie ferris. Just shows the strength of characters of these guys.

Terrible thing to say but I would be happy enough to see McComish leave as he isn't a strong enough player for our squad any more, we would be better giving his spot to an academy player.

Rumour we are signing a young 10/12 from Connacht's academy. Sean O'Hagan. Don't know much about him, but he made u18/u20 teams very young apparently.

That's probably what the poaching comments are about that someone mentioned above, rather than us signing jack McGrath.

Good team - surprised Diack on the bench though.

(15-9): J Payne, C Gilroy, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, J Afoa, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Wilson, S Doyle, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): N Annett, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, M McComish, P Marshall, R Scholes, R Andrew.

clivemcl wrote:Good team - surprised Diack on the bench though.

(15-9): J Payne, C Gilroy, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, J Afoa, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Wilson, S Doyle, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): N Annett, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, M McComish, P Marshall, R Scholes, R Andrew.

with Stevenson and Tuohy injured its probably best having him on the bench fresh as cover rather than risking him on the field. If he and one of Muller or Henderson got injured would you fancy anyone else in the 2nd row?

Though it surely says McCombs days are numbered

They are

As I said previously a number of Mc's days are numbered

McCormish, McComb, McKinney, McAllister - none of them cut it to the required standard.

The young lad from Connaught is interesting a - potentially a much better player than McKinney or NOC

McAllister is on that list? I am a bit surprised by that - not by the others to be honest - but thought the issues with McAllister was injuries rather than ability or potential?

I just hope McAllister hasn't gotten too big during his lay-off.

Whoops that is known as a  typo  

McAllister is most DEFINITELY not being written off just the opposite

It should say McIlwaine  

hahah - thanks Geoff!

I think McAllister has real potential - you had me seriously questioning my judgement :-)

McIlwaine for me was a strange one - he was in England for a while, and I couldn't really see why they brought him back. McKinney - I am going to reserve judgement, as I have only seen him start twice for Ulster, and on the first occasion he played rather well. Less so against the Ospreys...

McComb and McComish - they have been given a fair go. McComish in particular, has never let us down in a big way - but think the game has just left him behind. Not sure that he has ever really adapted to the evolving laws at the breakdown, while McComb is a puzzle. He has all of the physical attributes, and seems to put in a good deal of effort - but not to any great effect.

The players that we know are going fill me with dread though. Take Afoa, Muller, Court, and at this stage it looks like Ferris & Wallace (P) - out of any pro squad, and they are some big boots to fill.

Look forward to hearing who is going to try.

McComb problem is attitude.
Not in the sense of not been committed he could not be described as a shirker but he has no fire in his belly.
If I had to go and punch a player in the face, for a bet, I would pick him because he would turn round and say 'sorry did I do something'. I kid you not !

McCormish thinks he is the beez knees - other players think he is a joke

McKinney has been very disappointing he simple hasn't got it. He can kick but his pass is too weak and in contact he is pathetically weak. Taking the ball off of him is like taking candy from a baby. After the Ospreys game a few of the forwards were pretty annoyed - heard that directly.
The Connaught lad coming, if true, is coming as a replacement.

McIlwaine went to England and looked really good but has disappointed on his return.
Sometimes you get some players who look great at one level but just cant progress to the next.
McIlwaine is one of those - English second grade is his level

"If I had to go and punch a player in the face, for a bet, I would pick him because he would turn round and say 'sorry did I do something'. I kid you not !" Geoff999

This does make more sense now - McComb approaches the whole thing like a game of chess - at which he is pretty good, until someone knocks over his Rook

McComish used to be the number 8, and place kicker at Campbell. Possible that he developed a God complex, as opposed to the had work and graft approach from Willie Falloon.

Some of the boys coming through just now are a concern - and perhaps the reason McComish et al. are still on contract. I watched the "O's" match, and there seemed to be a lack of basic common sense from Allen and Andrew. Pienaar was slated for his performance in that match - but having been there - he was the only player on show with a rugby brain. He was in position defensively every time.

I hope - and to be honest expect Brian Mc to improve the academy.

To be fair 2Bfair (see what I did there   ) you can quote Allen and Andrew etc but on the otherhand there are also Olding, Marshall, Jackson, Henderson, Gilroy - 5 decent players.

We do have some serious gaps though. I do believe we are moving in the right direction but it will take time and we will need to have key NIQ till 2017/18 I reckon.
Success for me would be only having, say, 2 NIQ in the 2018/19 squad and still being in the European top 10.
I believe that is the sort of target the club has

I can confirm the McComish god complex stuff, when back in belfast I work as a doorman and one of the places I work in is where the ulster boys go to after most games, he gets on like a T**t, the amount of times he has started blazing arguments with other punters over the way he treats bar staff is surprising (or maybe not so surprising).

But I can say that jarar Payne is a really cool and funny guy, always a gentleman.