Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

One guy I think deserves high praise from these two Treviso games is Sean Doyle.
As you know I reported some doubt about his future and that he needed to put his hand - he has done so big time.

Few more games like that and he will be with us next year for sure.

Anscombe loves a bit of squad rotation. If we sign Robinson - Pienaar will never play 10 again. Robinson will play 10 when Jackson is away or needs rested. He will play 15 when Payne is away or needs rested. He can also play 12.

I think our entire back line will play less games next year with the addition of such a good utility back - which can only be good for our players in terms of season exhaustion.

Cave will still start 13 when Payne doesn’t play there - and to be honest I think he should be content with that - but I wouldt blame him if he left after a year. it all depends on whether Olding is looked at for 13.

Not a bad situation to be in. Certainly, during injury hard times, you cannot ignore how much sweeter it would be to have Robinson rather than McKinney or Nelson/Andrew!

Clive spot on - add up the games McKinney, Andrew and sadly Allen have played in.

There is Robinsons game time next year.

What about the big name signing...any news.
PS voice has only just recovered from shooting from the stands at Welford Road   

Keesie_kee wrote:What about the big name signing...any news.
PS voice has only just recovered from shooting from the stands at Welford Road   

  

Please tell me that's a typo!!

Freudian slip 

Now we know why the Tiggers had to make so many substitutions!

  

Oh my goodness Keesie! Thats no way to treat your hosts   

I think I clipped Chris Henry's snout in the dying minutes.....thats gotta sting   

Seriously though...what a result. And the Leicester fans were amazing after the match.

  

Met a 93 year old gent who was out with his Grandson. He had 8 layers on to keep out the cold. Top Man!

Just noticed Murphy is coming to the end of his 3 year in University.

If this is his last year that could be a big hint.
Also been told a Brumbies player is likely - I reckon I'll up that one to 70% probability

Vast majority of degree's are 3 years, 4 year degrees are quite rare.

Murphy would be a good signing, but I've heard his long-term goal is to represent the Wallabies and it says the same on his wiki page so I'm guessing he's made some noises in the Aussie press about that at some point. Whether thats a strong aspiration or not I don't know. According to wikipedia his dad owns a business in Perth and he spent a long time there as a kid but he was born in Dublin and represented Leinster and Ireland schools and as he's entering his third year there he'll be dual-qualified soon if he isn;t already through family ties.

I suppose his decision whether to stay in Australia or come to Ireland might depend on which country he believes he is more likely to play test rugby for. If Australia wasn't looking likely he might switch or vice versa. As an Irish qualified prop who has played at Super Rugby level I would at the very least have expected Humphreys to have sounded him out. There's not a big pool of talent out there to tap into is there?

Keesie_kee wrote:Met a 93 year old gent who was out with his Grandson. He had 8 layers on to keep out the cold. Top Man!

Awesome- thats what its all about. The more confrontational atmosphere you sometimes get on sites like this quickly melts away most places you go in the real world. I saw some videos of Ulster and Leicester fans having the craic after the game.

We wont sign Murphy unless he commits to Ireland

I remember when Murphy signed he mentioned his plans to represent oz... their press saw it as a big coup to be stealing a NH to play for them considering so many have gone north.

Considering he was fresh off the plane to play super rugby and probably thought his Irish hopes were gone it would have made sense for him to talk up playing for the wallabies to keep his options open... but fast foward a couple of years, Ireland come knocking and maybe he isn't quite where he'd like to be in Brumbies, I could see him coming back.

Is he really Wallabies standard though? What age is he?

Lets not ignore the fact that the lack of props who are irish qualified perhaps gave him a strong position in salary negotiations.

Is he a 1st choice for Brumbies?

geoff998rugby wrote:Clive spot on - add up the games McKinney, Andrew and sadly Allen have played in.

There is Robinsons game time next year.

Geoff - you say that as if he isn't good enough to break into the first team and will be very much a back up player.

I really doubt that from what I have seen and can see another Payne-esque player. With even more pace and much younger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_gN2UdIPkc

Have to agree with Rory there. If Robinson signs I think it would be very difficult to not have him in the XV. That being said he shared game time with Anscombe at the Chiefs (this May have been through injury too) and I don't think he is on the AB radar.

In a real sense then he is better off coming North and getting a much better payday for his talents along with the chance to win some silverware (already has won SuperRugby). I think it would be a top, top signing

Being able to play 10 and 15 will mean he will get plenty of game time.  Bare in mind next season Payne will most likely be with Ireland quite a lot and after Payne we have nothing but academy prospects at 15.  Similarly at 10 it means we can keep Pienaar at 9 when Jackson is out.  I can see him being used the way Nacewa was in his first couple of seasons at Leinster at 10 and 15.

Its funny...he seems a very very similar player to Anscombe's son Gareth  who was linked with us.

Clearly Daddy wanted young Gareth to have a better chance at the Chiefs and took away some of his competition!

cheers da!

I seen an interview with Murphy on the Score where he mentioned he would be happy to represent Ireland if he was called up. This was a few moths after he signed for the Brumbies.

I think he said he would love to play for the Wallabies to make himself more attractive to the ARU which was smart on his part. I'm not too sure how good he is though. I think Jack O'Connell would be a good signing.

geoff998rugby wrote:We wont sign Murphy unless he commits to Ireland

Well, thats obvious- Australia won't select him if he moves to Ireland. Similarly Ireland won't select him if he stays in Australia. Unless you're already ineligible to play for Ireland, to sign with Ulster and Ireland is to essentially indicate you are willing to represent Ireland, or to commit to a contract that will see you qualify on residency at the end. I'd imagine the same is true of the Brumbies and other Aussie Super Rugby teams regarding Australia  

Robinson would be a fantastic signing.
Isn't Murphy a loosehead?
Daniel would be a great signing.

Was at a talk tonight with Ricky Huey who was a coach at Natal sharks and is back at Ulster rugby.... have to say hearing about the rugby set up in SA was mind blowing, its basically professional at primary school level...  

rodders wrote:Was at a talk tonight with Ricky Huey who was a coach at Natal sharks and is back at Ulster rugby.... have to say hearing about the rugby set up in SA was mind blowing, its basically professional at primary school level...  

Sure we're ahead of the game here. My sister sends her kid to RugbyTots. He's three  

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Was at a talk tonight with Ricky Huey who was a coach at Natal sharks and is back at Ulster rugby.... have to say hearing about the rugby set up in SA was mind blowing, its basically professional at primary school level...  

Sure we're ahead of the game here. My sister sends her kid to RugbyTots. He's three  

RugbyTots in SA lift weights 3 times a day and play in front of 60k people though ...

I remember being shocked at the fact that Biltong told me his wee one was already playing 15-a-side with full contested scrums and lifting in the line out at some ridiculously early age. Was he 7???

AFAIK our lads/lassies start 15-a-side at 11 and there is no lifting till 14.

Bilts would know more but some of the stadiums the primary school kids were playing were huge - the academies start at primary level, including full time professional coaching, strength and conditioning, diet etc.

Every school has a professional director of rugby who's second only to the principal - when you multiply this out across every school then that is pretty scary. Rugby comes before academia too in the schools and universities.

...I have to say.... I don't feel so guilty about us poaching their players now ....

I have to say, I don't think thats how it should be in terms of the balance between schoolwork, sport and other interests. It's all about balance, really.

re Robbie Robinson - it got me thinking.

If you are an up and coming player in somewhere like New Zealand - they produce lorry loads of top quality players all competing for one national team - Your pretty good - but everyone is - and some are excellent. You’ve started to hear about Jared Payne, being only a few months away from replacing Brian O’Driscoll.

What do you do? Sit tight and have a career without any experience at the highest level? Or do you consider or perhaps actively enquire about becoming a project for another country.

National pride is very important to most people but surely there comes a point that you think purely in terms of career. A short career. 15 years. One without international prospects and one with international prospects.

I can see many more players jumping ship if the all blacks don’t nail them down.

Robinson is 25 and approaching his best years. If he isn't going to be an all black he probably feels he may as well be rewarded for his talents and earn a bit of cash.

Notch wrote:I have to say, I don't think thats how it should be in terms of the balance between schoolwork, sport and other interests. It's all about balance, really.

I'd say top level sport is not about balance at all but that's a separate debate.

But what it does highlight is how competitive it is to reach the top of the sport in SA and that these are the structures we are striving towards, to compete with, in Ulster and Ireland.

Wolfhounds team has been announced for Saturdays game against the Saxons, Darren Cave starting at 12 with Henshaw at 13.

Interesting selection, seems Henshaws ahead of Cave for the 13 shirt

I thought that was fairly obvious - this is an opportunity for Cave though, at least he gets a chance this time to keep himself in the mix.

I havn't seen much of Henshaw this season and he's got greater potential than Cave but surely Caves form should have given him the opportunity at 13

I think he could do a job at 12 but might be the wrong game for him to adjust his game

Henshaw has probably had a better January at 13 than cave did in fairness although Darren's form from earlier in the year is better. As Geoff said he will have a decision to make after next season. In the same way I mentioned Robinson getting more money abroad I suspect Cave would too and I can't see him threatening the Ireland setup for the foreseeable future

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Clive spot on - add up the games McKinney, Andrew and sadly Allen have played in.

There is Robinsons game time next year.

Geoff - you say that as if he isn't good enough to break into the first team and will be very much a back up player.

I really doubt that from what I have seen and can see another Payne-esque player.  With even more pace and much younger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_gN2UdIPkc

Rory not what I meant I merely was illustrating he could have had plenty of game time without deny any, of what I might call our front line, backs game. Having checked the Pro12 games I reckon he could have played in every one, bar Munster, and only Oldings outing at 15 would not have occurred.

HC would be different.
Robinson is definitely first XV material.

However it does throw up some interesting issues and I fear Wallace and Cave will be the ones to lose out.
McKinney as well and maybe Andrew.

With Robinson signing we will see far more of Payne at 15 and with Olding. Marshall and Robinson do we need Wallace for 12.
Robinson could slot in anywhere 10 to 15

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:We wont sign Murphy unless he commits to Ireland

Well, thats obvious- Australia won't select him if he moves to Ireland. Similarly Ireland won't select him if he stays in Australia. Unless you're already ineligible to play for Ireland, to sign with Ulster and Ireland is to essentially indicate you are willing to represent Ireland, or to commit to a contract that will see you qualify on residency at the end. I'd imagine the same is true of the Brumbies and other Aussie Super Rugby teams regarding Australia  

To clarify I mean contracturally he will have to commit to Ireland i.e. if he plays for anyone else during the period of his 3 year contract that contract will become null and void.

I see his mum would prefer him to play for Ireland and as you know an Irish lad crossing his mum is not something to be undertaken lightly   

marty2086 wrote:I havn't seen much of Henshaw this season and he's got greater potential than Cave but surely Caves form should have given him the opportunity at 13

I think he could do a job at 12 but might be the wrong game for him to adjust his game

To be honest Cave has a very narrow window of opportunity to make his mark.

Next Autumn Payne and Henshaw will be in the driving seat.
However he may get a chance this 6N is BOD gets injured and Henshaw comes up short.
In the summer he will probably go on tour with Henshaw as one of the two 13's.
Somewhere in the next 6 months lets hope he gets a chance - although I cant wish injury on BOD or Henshaw to fail.

If he comes in and shines it will create an intersting dilemma for both Ireland and Ulster.

Maybe playing 12 as he is under consideration for the bench - just a thought?

The guy in the know re announcements did say the next 10 days - posted on Sunday/Monday I think so the tension will continue into next week.

Surprised an Anscombe extension hasn't been announced though

geoff998rugby wrote:Rory not what I meant I merely was illustrating he could have had plenty of game time without deny any, of what I might call our front line, backs game. Having checked the Pro12 games I reckon he could have played in every one, bar Munster, and only Oldings outing at 15 would not have occurred.

To be honest Geoff it doesn't say much about the academy if we are signing a player for this purpose. Nelson, McKinney and Andrew should all be capable of doing this....even D'arcy, McIlwayne .... I don't see the point signing backs unless they add something - if we need depth it should come from the academy players stepping up.

Darcy??

He left.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:We wont sign Murphy unless he commits to Ireland

Well, thats obvious- Australia won't select him if he moves to Ireland. Similarly Ireland won't select him if he stays in Australia. Unless you're already ineligible to play for Ireland, to sign with Ulster and Ireland is to essentially indicate you are willing to represent Ireland, or to commit to a contract that will see you qualify on residency at the end. I'd imagine the same is true of the Brumbies and other Aussie Super Rugby teams regarding Australia  

To clarify I mean contracturally he will have to commit to Ireland i.e. if he plays for anyone else during the period of his 3 year contract that contract will become null and void.

I see his mum would prefer him to play for Ireland and as you know an Irish lad crossing his mum is not something to be undertaken lightly   

 

Yes, we're on the same page here geoff- thats exactly what I meant

Yes I know.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Rory not what I meant I merely was illustrating he could have had plenty of game time without deny any, of what I might call our front line, backs game. Having checked the Pro12 games I reckon he could have played in every one, bar Munster, and only Oldings outing at 15 would not have occurred.

To be honest Geoff it doesn't say much about the academy if we are signing a player for this purpose. Nelson, McKinney and Andrew should all be capable of doing this....even D'arcy, McIlwayne .... I don't see the point signing backs unless they add something - if we need depth it should come from the academy players stepping up.

Lets see where we are re 10 to 15
7 Academy originating players definitely good enough - Jackson, Olding, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy
2 Good squad player wont let you down - Allen, Wallace (soon to retire - I mean now previously he would be in the above list)
2 'Project style' - Payne, Robinson
3 Still unknown - Nelson, Scholes, Farrell
4 Not up to the level required - McIlwaine, McKinney, Cochrane, Andrew

We have a fine record of producing backs but we do have an issue at 10 and 15 re injuries to Jackson and Payne
That is the basis for signing Robinson.
Robinson will add a lot - he is a class act.

We need to remember it is not inconceivable we could lose anywhere between 6 and 8 of those players to Ireland when Internationals are on

I accept the breakdown Geoff but for me that is a poor return from our academy if we have to bring in players to backfill internationals in the outside backs.

I understand there are long term issues with tight 5 forwards but come on, in the whole of Ulster we can't produce a few Rabo quality fullbacks and centres? That's a scandal to be honest, what do we pay development officers for?

Yep, looking at the match report from the Ravens, Scholes had a good return. McKinney and (possibly Nelson) would have been the only two to cover 10 and only Nelson can cover 15 of those two. If you look at our academy products we actually have a guy to cover both positions,...Olding. It's just that we will want to maximise his talent without diluting it with versatility.

The Robinson signing (if it comes off) will IMO give us the depth in the backs to be the envy of any in Europe. The lad has serious gas

Rodders, if Payne and Nelson got injured and we had HC knockout games - we would be in a real pickle. I'll never sniff at a signing of Robinson's quality, especially if they are IQ or destined to be.

You can't really complain about any position from the academy bar 15. Jackson/Marshall/Olding/Allen are still so young.

You can't expect top talent on the conveyor belt every two years.

Nelson and Andrew can cope for some Rabo games, but they aren't versatile.

If Jackson is injured - would you rather Robinson or McKinney
If Payne is injured - would you rather Robinson or Nelson
If Marshall/Olding/Cave is injured - would you rather Robinson or Allen/Farrell?

I'm more than happy with the standard of our homegrown players, but I'm also ambitious, and i also recognise that Ulster Rugby is a business. I want the business to succeed, I want it to DOMINATE.

Also, truth is, in the eyes of the IRFU, nothing is changing. We will have gained more IQ depth (Jared) and continue with the same number of projects (Robinson).

rodders wrote:I accept the breakdown Geoff but for me that is a poor return from our academy if we have to bring in players to backfill internationals in the outside backs.

I understand there are long term issues with tight 5 forwards but come on, in the whole of Ulster we can't produce a few Rabo quality fullbacks and centres? That's a scandal to be honest, what do we pay development officers for?

I completely disagree I think that is a very good return given the standard we are talking about - the likes of Gilroy, Olding not certain of starting.
In years gone by the likes of Andrew and Cochrane would have been good enough but we are now better than that.
Seymour left because he couldn't get the Ulster side - he then proceeded to make the Scotland side.
Thats where we are.

I do think there is a point with respect to forwards - although front row is showing signs of improvement but when you take a way the guys we have grabbed from elsewhere the return within Ulster for 4 to 9 is very poor.

McLaughlin has been put in charge of development and the signs are encvouraging but it wil ltake time.

No its a great return in terms of quality Geoff, but its a terrible return in terms of depth.

McLaughlin isn't in charge of development Geoff. He's in charge of bridging the gap between the schools and the academy (unless he's been reassigned).

Accept what you are saying but I would suggest the gap between school and academy is where the biggest problem lies and in the wider sense of the word is crucial to development

Regarding depth my point is that in years gone by McIlwaine, Andrew, Cochrane, McKinney would have been considered good enough to provide that depth.
However we are now trying to move to a different plane of performance and what was good enough 4/5 years ago isn't good enough now