England *EPS 2014* and 6N Squad

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EPS

Forwards (17)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby) Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints) Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers) Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) Joe Launchbury (London Wasps) Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) Joe Marler (Harlequins) Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) Billy Vunipola (Saracens) Mako Vunipola (Saracens) David Wilson (Bath Rugby) Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (16)
Chris Ashton (Saracens) Brad Barritt (Saracens) Mike Brown (Harlequins) Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby) Danny Care (Harlequins) Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) Owen Farrell (Saracens) George Ford (Bath Rugby) Ben Foden (Northampton Saints) Alex Goode (Saracens) Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby) Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Christian Wade (London Wasps) Marland Yarde (London Irish) Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


England RBS 6 Nations squad (35)

Forwards (18)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby) Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs) Joe Launchbury (London Wasps) Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) Joe Marler (Harlequins) Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) Matt Mullan (London Wasps) Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers) Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks) Billy Vunipola (Saracens) Mako Vunipola (Saracens) Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (17)
Chris Ashton (Saracens) Brad Barritt (Saracens) Mike Brown (Harlequins) Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) Danny Care (Harlequins) Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby) Owen Farrell (Saracens) George Ford (Bath Rugby) Alex Goode (Saracens) Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby) Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints) Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby) Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


England Saxons squad:
Forwards (17): C Clark (Northampton), J Crane (Leicester), P Doran Jones (Harlequins), W Fraser (Saracens), J Haskell (Wasps), T Johnson (Exeter), G Kitchener (Leicester), G Kruis (Saracens), K Myall (Wasps), D Paice (London Irish), G Robson (Harlequins), E Slater (Leicester), H Thomas (Sale), T Waldrom (Leicester), L Wallace (Harlequins), R Webber (Bath), N Wood (Gloucester).

Backs (15): A Allen (Leicester), L Burrell (Northampton), E Daly (Wasps), G Ford (Bath), J Joseph (Bath), J May (Gloucester), U Monye (Harlequins), S Myler (Northampton), J Nowell (Exeter), C Sharples (Gloucester), J Simpson (Wasps), D Strettle (Saracens), M Tait (Leicester), J Tomkins (Saracens), R Wigglesworth (Saracens).

He did lay one on a plate and his general play was very good!

The guardian are reporting that Bath's Semesa Rokoduguni is going to be called into the Saxons squad. He's in the army apparently so qualifies on residency.

Bit out of the blue?

no 7 &1/2 my point is I would worry about Watson starting vs France away. Nowell too.

Looking good vs Bordeaux is completely different to a far stronger side.

Rokodoguni makes more sense. He actually scores tries. 4 in 8 AP games.

I think I've heard it been mentioned before in discussions about whether he'd play for England or not being in the Army

There has been murmurings about it.  He's a good player,  but is he worth the inevitable spite that is going to come out of his selection?  It's not like we haven't got young wingers chomping at the bit to get a start already.  

I can just about live with it when the cupboard is bare, but it isn't and he could potentially only get 1 Saxon cap and never be able to play for Fiji.

I wouldn't want either to start beshocked. Just 20 min here and there and see if they produce anything.

If he's willing to risk his life for Britain in the army, would his primary allegiance even be to Fiji though?

Beshocked i thing you summed up our backline issues remarkably well there. It is a concern.

And you have also followed up what i said previously in this thread regarding lancasters selection process for the Wales game last year...which in my eyes were extremely naive.

Cumbrian the cupboard is pretty bare with Yarde and Wade injured. Nowell and Watson are two youngsters - give them some more time to find some form.

I would happily welcome Rokodiguini into the England squad ahead of Nowell or Watson - didn't realise he was EQ but as you say. He's be in the Army.

no 7 and 1/2 surely that would be a potential waste of a bench spot?

I wouldnt want Roko..playing for England. Just because he's in the Army doesnt make him English. He can still be a proud fijian, like many other proud nations who have fought side by side with the British army.

We have enough coming through...and just puts England out there for more ridicule...

It is a little out of the blue, he has only been a pro player for c.15 months! He has been good for Bath though, he has a great ability to beat defenders.

He is effectively on loan to Bath from the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, so maybe Scotland have missed a trick...

He is 100% Fijian, but if he is willing to risk his life in some dusty hell hole for Britain, then I'm perfectly happy with him running around a field with a rose on. As an aside, he turned down a Fiji call up last season saying he didn't feel ready for full international rugby yet.

ChequeredJersey wrote:If he's willing to risk his life for Britain in the army, would his primary allegiance even be to Fiji though?

True.

If it was for a full England cap it wouldn't bother me so much, it's just the idea that he may sacrifice a potential international career for an 'A' team cap.

I agree Cumbrian. Rokodiguini should be in line for an full England cap.

If he doesn't want to play for England surely he can refuse to play for the Saxons?

Geordiefalcon but if he is willing to risk his life for Queen and Country he merits a call up at least as us much as those who are born and bred in the UK.

Will he be capped though? Call up not = cap

Even for the saxons

Cumbrian wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If he's willing to risk his life for Britain in the army, would his primary allegiance even be to Fiji though?

True.

If it was for a full England cap it wouldn't bother me so much,  it's just the idea that he may sacrifice a potential international career for an 'A' team cap.

Not everyone joys the army for jingoistic reasons - its a career for most.

I wouldn't see it as a waste of a bench spot beshocked. I think we have to try and ease new players in and the best way to do this for me is from the bench. Even a more experienced player is a risk as there is still a step up to international level.

Yeah same as rugby, but if your reasons are non-jingoistic for risking your life and potentially killing people, then why should your reasons for playing a game, love it as much as we do, have to be jingoistic. Anyone you are willing to kill and die for you'd logically be willing to play for, right?

Well it's waste of a bench spot if the game is in the balance and we need someone to make a positive impact off the bench or at least close out the game.

But we don't know how they will get on unless we try them. A risk yes but if you become too risk averse you only end up blooding new players against the lowest tier teams and would you learn anything from it anyway?

You risk losing the match and damaging the confidence of the player. Also what if someone like Brown picks up an injury in the 5th minute? You would be stuck with Watson at 15 for the remaining 75 minutes.

Has he been picked in the squad as a full back or a winger?

At full back he's behind Brown and Goode.

On the wing he's behind Ashton and May.

For the bench I would like to see some pace! I want the opposition to look at the man coming onto the field thinking 'god I'm knackered and I need to watch him like a hawk or crumbs I don't want to tackle him'.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah same as rugby, but if your reasons are non-jingoistic for risking your life and potentially killing people, then why should your reasons for playing a game, love it as much as we do, have to be jingoistic. Anyone you are willing to kill and die for you'd logically be willing to play for, right?

But they may not be killing and dieing for 'you' - it may be for the money

I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T play for England, I'm saying just because he is in the BRITISH army doesn't mean he'd be willing to represent ENGLAND. The majority of the British army used to be non English - didn't make any of the soldiers less patriotic to their own countries. I think most of Wellington's army was Scotish/Irish with a fair few Welsh. Anyway - I digress

beshocked wrote:I agree Cumbrian. Rokodiguini should be in line for an full England cap.

If he doesn't want to play for England surely he can refuse to play for the Saxons?

Geordiefalcon but if he is willing to risk his life for Queen and Country he merits a call up at least as us much as those who are born and bred in the UK.

Im not questioning his lotalty to the commonwealth...which is what he is part of.

As i said the British Army is made up of many proud nationaliities from all over the world...that doesnt make them English.

Dont get me wrong hes probably more eligable than say Vainikolo and Henry Paul in the blacks days of selection horrors..but i just think we have plenty talented (yes inexperienced) kids coming through that should be focused on...and let Fiji have a hope of keeping some quality players.

Also this continues to send out the wrong signals.

The RFU and club academies are working their socks off creating these youngsters now...its a slap in the face if some fijian is suddenly selected above them.

I concurr

beshocked wrote:You risk losing the match and damaging the confidence of the player. Also what if someone like Brown picks up an injury in the 5th minute? You would be stuck with Watson at 15 for the remaining 75 minutes.

Has he been picked in the squad as a full back or a winger?

At full back he's behind Brown and Goode.

On the wing he's behind Ashton and May.

Depending on the bench you may have other options than that but as i said there's always a risk when introducing new players. How do we know any players isn't going to be terrible or brilliant before they've had a chance? How would you introduce new players?

If he qualifies to play then I have no issue with it what so ever.

i appreciate immigration and club career has a huge impact....Just seems to me International rugby is just becoming a glorified club game with nationalities of all sorts just playing for who they want...

The army thing does muddy things slightly as I am not overly in favour of people who I see just want to play international rugby playing for whoever will take them. However, in principle if he qualifies and he wants to play for England then I guess I'm ok with it.

Players should be picked on merit and suitability, I firmly believe this. In his case though I think he's probably benefiting from a lack of wingers in the Saxons as they have all been called up to the training squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i appreciate immigration and club career has a huge impact....Just seems to me International rugby is just becoming a glorified club game with nationalities of all sorts just playing for who they want...

Most of us can trace our roots back to another country if you try hard enough and you are able to change nationalities by law.

Basically its up to him at the end of the day and not a bunch of grumpy blokes on a forum to decide.   

Look at it like this Mike Tindall's Daughter is 16th in line for the Throne  

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:You risk losing the match and damaging the confidence of the player. Also what if someone like Brown picks up an injury in the 5th minute? You would be stuck with Watson at 15 for the remaining 75 minutes.

Has he been picked in the squad as a full back or a winger?

At full back he's behind Brown and Goode.

On the wing he's behind Ashton and May.

Depending on the bench you may have other options than that but as i said there's always a risk when introducing new players. How do we know any players isn't going to be terrible or brilliant before they've had a chance? How would you introduce new players?

Let them prove themselves at club level first then give them a go at international level. Give them time to hone their skills.

Fast tracking youngsters who haven't even excelled at club level is an unhealthy way to go in my opinion.

Are Nowell and Watson doing better than the likes of Strettle,Cueto,May,Benjamin and Rokodiguini? Not in my opinion.

munkian wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah same as rugby, but if your reasons are non-jingoistic for risking your life and potentially killing people, then why should your reasons for playing a game, love it as much as we do, have to be jingoistic. Anyone you are willing to kill and die for you'd logically be willing to play for, right?

But they may not be killing and dieing for 'you' - it may be for the money

I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T play for England, I'm saying just because he is in the BRITISH army doesn't mean he'd be willing to represent ENGLAND. The majority of the British army used to be non English - didn't make any of the soldiers less patriotic to their own countries. I think most of Wellington's army was Scotish/Irish with a fair few Welsh. Anyway - I digress

Well, Fiji is its own country whilst Scotland, Wales and Ireland were not then and in the terms involved here 2 are still not now. Plus we used to force people to join the army in that era, which I'm pretty sure we can't now. And if he doesn't want to represent England, he doesn't have to accept a call up. The key words you used are "British" army and "non-English" but you can be non-English and still British and you can even feel British, it's allowed you know!

Thats true Scrumpy...most of us can...

But where does it stop...and as a grumpy fan im aloowed to express my opinions.

Though im not naive enough to know that nationalites and selection etc is a minefield...

And this topic has been discussed a million times on here aswell.. 

Saxons training squad has been announced for 25 Jan game.......

England Saxons

Forwards: Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Will Collier (Harlequins), Sam Dickinson (Northampton Saints), Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Jamie George (Saracens), Jamie Gibson (Leicester Tigers), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Charlie Matthews (Harlequins), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Alex Waller (Northampton Saints), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Scott Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Backs: Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Tom Varndell (London Wasps)


Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/211325.html#jLSTFghZrcsAbDjb.99

the boy is clearly making a life for himself in england, so if he wants to play for england and he qualifies based on residency, then fair play to him i say.

i doubt he joined the army and came to england in the hope that one day he could play rugby for england.

this one seems fairly uncontroversial. not like the players who come over as teenagers solely to be part of rugby development programs. that irks.

I'm hoping for a team like this:

15- Tait (happy with Daly)
14- Varndell (happy with Daly or Roko)
13- Daly (more likely JJ, happy with JJ)
12- Hill
11- Benjamin
10- Slade (Happy with Burns, maybe he just needs a better pack, but his form is poor)
9- Lewis (happy with Simpson- see a pattern)
8- Ewers (happy with Dickinson)
7- Wallace
6- Kruis (happy with Ewers, happy-ish with Clark as his recent form is actually good, happy with Gibson as long as the pack looks powerful enough)
5- Matthews (unless Kruis is not at 6, then him)
4- Kitchener
3- Wilson (happy-ish with Collier)
2- George (v happy with Ward but we can argue George has more potential time as an INT and needs playing)
1- Waller (happy-ish with Catt)

bench- Catt, Ward, Collier, Clark, Dickinson, Simpson, Burns, JJ

We have an excess back and forward, think Roko actually may not get capped at all

CJ Ireland has always, always been its own country. It may have been part of the British Empire but it always had its own distinct political and cultural identity and only for 119 years lacked its own parliament.

If he's been living in England for some time and wants to commit to representing them, fair play to them. Ireland Wolfhounds are likely to have a few ourselves. Could be as many as three lads in that boat. The army thing is a complete herring- is there a British rugby team? The answer is no, there is not- at least not until the sevens starts in the Olympics perhaps- so why would that matter?

Ireland are likely to name something like;

1. David Kilcoyne
2. Rob Herring
3. Rodney Ah-You
4. Iain Henderson
5. Dan Tuohy
6. Robbie Diack
7. Jordi Murphy
8. Robin Copeland
9. Kieran Marmion
10. Ian Keatley
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Ian Madigan
13. Robbie Henshaw
14. Fergus McFadden
15. Felix Jones

16. Damien Varley 17. Jack McGrath 18. Stephen Archer 19. Devin Toner 20. Tommy O'Donnell 21. Isaac Boss 22. Darren Cave 23. Dave Kearney

ChequeredJersey wrote:

munkian wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah same as rugby, but if your reasons are non-jingoistic for risking your life and potentially killing people, then why should your reasons for playing a game, love it as much as we do, have to be jingoistic. Anyone you are willing to kill and die for you'd logically be willing to play for, right?

But they may not be killing and dieing for 'you' - it may be for the money

I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T play for England, I'm saying just because he is in the BRITISH army doesn't mean he'd be willing to represent ENGLAND. The majority of the British army used to be non English - didn't make any of the soldiers less patriotic to their own countries. I think most of Wellington's army was Scotish/Irish with a fair few Welsh. Anyway - I digress

Well, Fiji is its own country whilst Scotland, Wales and Ireland were not then and in the terms involved here 2 are still not now. Plus we used to force people to join the army in that era, which I'm pretty sure we can't now. And if he doesn't want to represent England, he doesn't have to accept a call up. The key words you used are "British" army and "non-English" but you can be non-English and still British and you can even feel British, it's allowed you know!

Dont want to go too far down the history route, not least because I dont know enough to go beyond some basic facts but Wellington's army was not a conscript army and never was. There may have been occasional 'press gangs' but it was considerably more professional than the European equivalents (they must have been really bad...) which meant that size wise it was able to punch way above its weight. You'd probably also find that the actual mix of countries represented in the different regiments was much more varied than the names on the labels. I always felt we had a long tradition of finding the toughest locals around, beating them up using superior technology, then incorporating them in the British army with better weapons and training to fight the next bunch

As for the Bath Fijian, given the current situation you'd have to wonder if there is going to be any international Fijian rugby to go back to. There do seem to be plenty of Fijians in the UK armed forces.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

munkian wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah same as rugby, but if your reasons are non-jingoistic for risking your life and potentially killing people, then why should your reasons for playing a game, love it as much as we do, have to be jingoistic. Anyone you are willing to kill and die for you'd logically be willing to play for, right?

But they may not be killing and dieing for 'you' - it may be for the money

I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T play for England, I'm saying just because he is in the BRITISH army doesn't mean he'd be willing to represent ENGLAND. The majority of the British army used to be non English - didn't make any of the soldiers less patriotic to their own countries. I think most of Wellington's army was Scotish/Irish with a fair few Welsh. Anyway - I digress

Well, Fiji is its own country whilst Scotland, Wales and Ireland were not then and in the terms involved here 2 are still not now. Plus we used to force people to join the army in that era, which I'm pretty sure we can't now. And if he doesn't want to represent England, he doesn't have to accept a call up. The key words you used are "British" army and "non-English" but you can be non-English and still British and you can even feel British, it's allowed you know!

I think we may be arguing the same thing...

Fiji is NOW its own country but still part of the commonwealth - if it was ALWAYS its own country then I doubt he'd be in the British army

I won't get into the whole 'Scotland and Wales aren't countries' with you as its tiresome and will cause chaos

The Navy used to press gang people, the army offered people to sign up instead of prison and it was the only way to make a living for most of the common troops.

I don't know a huge amount about Fiji but I'm guessing if some of its people join the British army its because they will get a better standard of life and wage for their families. I'm guessing its the same for Fijian nationals who end up playing in Aus and NZ - its a living not a change of national allegience

I've never said you can't be non English and not feel British. I'm saying you can be British and not have any affinity with England.

Scotty Wilson in the Saxons!!!!!! Wow!!!

Cant disagree with that Munk...

If we do go this route with the British army why should it just be England who gets a look in? This guy is playing in England but he is/was in a Scottish regiment. As an aside an uncle of mine did play in a Scottish representative team post WW2 as he was in a Scottish regiment at the time. There is a trickle of Scots blood but its fairly well swamped by English/Cornish.

That's a pretty decent Saxons squad, it looks as if most of the dead wood has been cut out and instead we have young players who will be looking to make it up to the 1st team. How many games are the actually playing this year?

Without wanting to get into the nationality thing too much, we as fans would like to believe that the players get themselves ready for a game by listening to Henry the V's speech and crying as they salute the flag.
In reality they get paid a lot more to be in the EPS and put their body on the line for their teammates, and the desire to be the best, not for the 60 odd million people who live in England.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Scotty Wilson in the Saxons!!!!!! Wow!!!

I wonder if this is purely to fend of advances from Scotland for his services as he hasn't been that prominent for the Falcons this season has he?

lostinwales wrote:Cant disagree with that Munk...

If we do go this route with the British army why should it just be England who gets a look in? This guy is playing in England but he  is/was in a Scottish regiment.  As an aside an uncle of mine did play in a Scottish representative team post WW2 as he was in a Scottish regiment at the time. There is a trickle of Scots blood but its fairly well swamped by English/Cornish.

Is his inclusion through residency rather than serving with the armed forces ?

Well its curious...hes a real future one Englands Carl Hayman (his idol)...but playing great now....but keiron Brookes has been hugely impressive aswell...

Maybe your right...its to keep the Scots away.

Bathman_in_London wrote:That's a pretty decent Saxons squad, it looks as if most of the dead wood has been cut out and instead we have young players who will be looking to make it up to the 1st team. How many games are the actually playing this year?

Without wanting to get into the nationality thing too much, we as fans would like to believe that the players get themselves ready for a game by listening to Henry the V's speech and crying as they salute the flag.
In reality they get paid a lot more to be in the EPS and put their body on the line for their teammates, and the desire to be the best, not for the 60 odd million people who live in England.

Couldnt agree more mate...Robson, Waldrom,LI hooker,forgot his name ...all out...

munkian wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

munkian wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah same as rugby, but if your reasons are non-jingoistic for risking your life and potentially killing people, then why should your reasons for playing a game, love it as much as we do, have to be jingoistic. Anyone you are willing to kill and die for you'd logically be willing to play for, right?

But they may not be killing and dieing for 'you' - it may be for the money

I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T play for England, I'm saying just because he is in the BRITISH army doesn't mean he'd be willing to represent ENGLAND. The majority of the British army used to be non English - didn't make any of the soldiers less patriotic to their own countries. I think most of Wellington's army was Scotish/Irish with a fair few Welsh. Anyway - I digress

Well, Fiji is its own country whilst Scotland, Wales and Ireland were not then and in the terms involved here 2 are still not now. Plus we used to force people to join the army in that era, which I'm pretty sure we can't now. And if he doesn't want to represent England, he doesn't have to accept a call up. The key words you used are "British" army and "non-English" but you can be non-English and still British and you can even feel British, it's allowed you know!

I think we may be arguing the same thing...

Fiji is NOW its own country but still part of the commonwealth - if it was ALWAYS its own country then I doubt he'd be in the British army

I won't get into the whole 'Scotland and Wales aren't countries' with you as its tiresome and will cause chaos

The Navy used to press gang people, the army offered people to sign up instead of prison and it was the only way to make a living for most of the common troops.

I don't know a huge amount about Fiji but I'm guessing if some of its people join the British army its because they will get a better standard of life and wage for their families. I'm guessing its the same for Fijian nationals who end up playing in Aus and NZ -  its a living not a change of national allegience

I've never said you can't be non English and not feel British. I'm saying you can be British and not have any affinity with England.

I only meant in political terms which a represntative army fits in with. As nations in terms of culture and history they absolutely are

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:That's a pretty decent Saxons squad, it looks as if most of the dead wood has been cut out and instead we have young players who will be looking to make it up to the 1st team. How many games are the actually playing this year?

Without wanting to get into the nationality thing too much, we as fans would like to believe that the players get themselves ready for a game by listening to Henry the V's speech and crying as they salute the flag.
In reality they get paid a lot more to be in the EPS and put their body on the line for their teammates, and the desire to be the best, not for the 60 odd million people who live in England.

Couldnt agree more mate...Robson, Waldrom,LI hooker,forgot his name ...all out...

Paice

Cool man, just avoiding all out war    (until Feb 1st anyway...)