Pick Your Irish XV For Scotland

First topic message reminder :

Alright, with the Wolfhounds winning 14-8 on a horrible night in Gloucester, we've no rugby left before Irelands 2014 Six Nations campaign kicks off on Sunday. Joe Schmidt has watched the 4 provinces from Rounds 3 to 6 in the Heineken Cup and tonights game was his last chance to see any player who needs game time after an injury or is on the fringes of the squad push their claim in a competitive match.

This time next week, the Ireland guys selected to play Scotland will be in a hotel in Dublin with I'd imagine some considerable amount of nerves and anticipation, all the preparation done, and we'll have seen the form of France, England and Wales on the opening day of the tournament.

So- who's gonna be in, who's gonna be out, who are the bolters, who are the conservative picks and who do you think should be there? Get cracking.

McFadden is far from a certainty for the team. I think he'll make the 23 though.

In regards to the wingers, I don't think any one of them are playing exceptional. Some are playing decent to good rugby, we tend to exaggerate when they do play good, but we've no one that screams out to be picked. Zebo, Gilroy, Earls(people won't agree) and Bowe are our best wingers but due to injury and lack of game time none of them are shoo-ins at the moment. After that we have Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden and Trimble, all good reliable players. I think Schmidt will choose Fitzgerald and Zebo/Kearney. I can't see Trimble or McFadden starting.

Trimble has been very good since the start of January but that is only 3 games and it probably wont be enough to force his way in. He became part of the conversation but I agree his form hasn't demanded selection like it did last season.

I genuinely don't know what Dan Tuohy has to do to break into the team. I haven't watched as much of the other provinces as Munster but he has been a rock for Ulster and even yesterday he ran a good lineout, made 16 tackles and demonstrated the clearout skills and physicality that the Irish pack needs. he would walk into my Irish XV.

I would pick him too.

Trimble's kicking game & not being great under a high ball has held him back internationally.

I think Tuohy doesn't fit because he seems to be a bit too quick to moan on the twitter machine about his non selection.

Sin é wrote:Trimble's kicking game & not being great under a high ball has held him back internationally.

I think Tuohy doesn't fit because he seems to be a bit too quick to moan on the twitter machine about his non selection.

I would say that is one of Trimble's strongpoints nowadays. He is very solid under the high ball.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Trimble's kicking game & not being great under a high ball has held him back internationally.

I think Tuohy doesn't fit because he seems to be a bit too quick to moan on the twitter machine about his non selection.

I would say that is one of Trimble's strongpoints nowadays.  He is very solid under the high ball.

Trimble is the best Irish winger at chasing the high kick from Jackson. His ability in defence to catch the opposition balls is much improved, though he doesn't have the footballing skills or Bowe, Earls, Zebo or Fitzgerald. His kicking game, frankly, is poor by international standards. He is probably the best defender of any Irish wing, but I'm just not sure if he has that eye for the line that Earls has, or the ability to conjure something out of nothing that Zebo has, or read a game and run such fantastic lines of attack that Bowe does, or have the versatility of McFadden. Bowe and Munster wings are a cut above the rest- there's very little to choose between Fitzgerald and Trimble at this stage. Gilroy and Kearney are not international class wings whatsoever. Gilroy may be in the future.

Notch wrote:You beat us last year, though. The Great Murrayfield Robbery. Jacksons test debut and O'Garas last ever game for Ireland.

We'll be fairly desperate to return the favour on our home patch!

Afternoon All

Notch in all due respect to Ireland last year, I think you were in a bit of disarray on and off the park, yet still trounced us in all but the score. This season Ireland are a totally difference proposition and when you guys are not even considering the likes of Boss, Madigan, Ruddock and Copeland who are all superb players then you can see the strength of the Irish squad.

You can never tell on the day but I cannae see us getting much out of the game.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

slane wrote: Agree with all of this especially the part about Tuohy partnering POC I actually think those would work perfectly together as a second row pairing similar to the old combination of DOC/POC. It is unfortunate that Henderson doesn't have more experience because him and POC together would be unreal.

As for the wings I think if were picking on form it would have to be Fitz and Trimble for the Scotland game although I think everyone know's McFadden will play.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you Slane.  Henderson for me is a 6 and no amount of wishing will make him a top class second row.  I just don't think he will ever be a truly effective second row for Ulster or Ireland.  He best display for Ulster are at 6.  Frankly, both sides need to decide where his best position is and stop treating as a utility forward.  He's far too talented for that.

Also, Trimble for me should be nowhere near the side.  Last season he was Ireland's best wing at provincial level and was screaming for selection.  Unfortunately Ireland were encumbered with a coach with no understanding of how to use him effectively.  However it must be said, he far short of that level of play this year.  I would pick McFadden, Zebo and Fitzgerald in front of him at the moment.  

Didn't Henderson play in the second row at junior level and for Ireland under 20's? I agree with you he has been most effective at number 6 for Ulster but he's still young and he is the right size for a second row.

The problem for Ireland is we have an abundance of back-row's and a lack of second row's, so I suppose the thinking behind it is he will come good at some point and it also means we can play both him and POM as opposed to one of them sitting on the bench, Henderson has said himself that he finds it very hard to get going when he comes on at the 60 min mark. Also I think this is Muller's last season at Ulster so it looks very much like Henderson will be starting in the second row for Ulster next season.

Trimble has been playing in a very good Ulster team and has put in some good shifts, in terms of form I think he and Fitz are the in form wingers. However, like you I would have Fitz starting with McFadden or Zebo on the other wing. Just saying Trimble would be the form pick if Schmidt was going about it that way.

I would probably pick Trimble to be honest. Class player. Some back three Ulster have this year. Mind you Gilroy didnt have a great game last night.

GunsGerms wrote:I would probably pick Trimble to be honest. Class player. Some back three Ulster have this year. Mind you Gilroy didnt have a great game last night.

I think Trimble deserves a game under Schmidt because out of all the wingers he (and Fitz) are the only ones that have shown any kind of form (don't want to get into a debate about the others due to injuries ect).

I would actually like to see what Trimble could do in a Schmidt team.

Fitz is a bench man. Nothing more.

Anyone else think that Henshaw or Zebo should be starting ahead of Kearney. I know it will never happen which is disappointing considering how bad he's been.

And will the fact that it BOD's last 6N spur him on or will he continue his poor run of form.

My ideal back three would be Fitzgerald, Gilroy and Zebo. Earls would be in there if he wasn't injured.

There is not an awful lot wrong with Trimble's game at the the moment except his kicking game is absolutely atrocious and does get found out at international level.

Fitz is clearly the in form wing at the moment. Zebo has beaten Gilroy and McFadden to the other spot for me. With all due respect if we are picking Dave Kearney without many injuries our strength in depth isn't all that much.

R Kearney is playing OK at the the moment. He's not a liability or an asset really, but he's fortunate Payne isn't eligible yet.

theslosty wrote:There is not an awful lot wrong with Trimble's game at the the moment except his kicking game is absolutely atrocious and does get found out at international level.

It's probably better than McFadden's.

I really don't understand how Tuohy doesn't have many more caps. Form second row IMO at the moment

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I really don't understand how Tuohy doesn't have many more caps. Form second row IMO at the moment

He really is but (deep breath) maybe his face doesn't fit

In other news, Eddi O'Sullivan is coaching Garryowen? When did that happen? http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/eddie-o-sullivan-impressed-as-garryowen-make-life-difficult-for-lansdowne-1.1668619

Just been reading a great article by the mole, he says this about McFadden (full article is http://dementedmole.com/2014/01/09/ruck-marks-irelands-autumn-series/#more-3827)

Somebody Said ‘Class’, I Heard ‘Waffle’

Not for the first time this year, Fergus McFadden was Ireland’s most threatening and effective back. It seems to be de rigeur in certain sections to damn him with faint praise and to treat every good test performance as an anomaly, regardless of the evidence that builds up in his favour.

Obviously the standout numbers from his performance were his 132 metres run [best on the pitch by some margin] and three clean breaks, but he was also the only Irish three-quarter not to miss any tackles [going 4/0], and finished tenth on the team’s ruck marks, second amongst the backline, with 36 points [1 decisive, 8 hits, 2 guards, 4 presents]. As an all-round performance, it was pretty clearly the stand-out effort from any of the Irish backs.

McFadden hasn’t quite been operating at Mike Brown levels, but there are similarities between them in that they are gutsy, competitive players who were relatively late bloomers at test level. Neither player really fits the stereotype associated with their respective positions [or their clubs, for that matter], but this isn’t synchronised swimming. There are no points for style.

The Kildare man played five games for Ireland in 2013: against France in the Six Nations, the two games of the North America tour, against the US and Canada, and two of the games of the November series, against Samoa and Australia.

Fergus McFadden's 2013: in four out of his five tests, he led the Irish backline in terms of metres run, and in three of those games he led the backs both in clean breaks and defenders beaten. In his last three tests especially, he went looking for the ball all over the park and was very busy, racking up 23 possessions against Canada, 14 against Samoa and 22 against Australia, bagging four tries along the way.
Fergus McFadden’s 2013: in four out of his five tests, he led the Irish backline in terms of metres run, and in three of those games he led the backs both in clean breaks and defenders beaten. In his last three tests especially, he went looking for the ball all over the park and was very busy, racking up 23 possessions against Canada, 14 against Samoa and 22 against Australia, bagging four tries along the way.

The lad averaged 11 carries and better than 65m per game, but more impressive is the average of two clean breaks every test this year, and better than two and a half defenders beaten.

McFadden has 21 test caps [13+8] and has scored 8 tries in those games; 4 of those have come against ‘minnows’ Canada [3] and Russia [1], with the others coming against New Zealand, France, Scotland and Samoa. Those aren’t staggering, Julian Savea-type numbers, but they hold up well in comparison to his contemporaries:

Andrew Trimble [born 1984]; 50 tests [38+12] & 12 test tries [including 2 vs Romania, 1 vs Namibia, 1 vs Russia and 1 vs Canada]
Keith Earls [born 1987]: 39 tests [31+8] & 12 test tries [including 2 vs Russia, 2 vs Fijiª and 1 vs Canada]
Luke Fitzgerald [born 1987]: 27 tests [19+8] & 2 test tries
ª For the sake of comparison, it’s worth considering that it’s neither accurate nor [to use a derided word] ‘fair’ to count Earls’ two tries against Fiji in the 43-6 win in the RDS back in November 2009, and not to count McFadden’s two in the 53-0 win against the same opposition down in Thomond last year. The November 2012 game against Fiji was distinctly not a Wolfhounds game, and neither match was played at the national stadium. The primary reason the more recent game wasn’t classed as a test match was because of a sponsorship clause that requires all Irish home test matches to be played at Lansdowne Road and because the attendance drawn by Fiji wouldn’t cover the cost of staffing the Aviva Stadium. That’s not really a good enough reason, in my opinion. Fiji are a country, they sent over their national team. Not awarding caps for that fixture nor regarding it as a test match is one of those decisions which is absolutely understandable from a commercial and financial point of view, but still smells rotten. With that proviso, McFadden’s record would improve to 22 tests [14+8] with 10 tries, 6 of them against ‘minnows’.

This isn’t to say that McFadden is better or worse than Earls or Trimble or Fitzgerald. It’s just that in terms of production, in terms of things that have actually happened, he compares well with any of them.

Fitzgerald made his test debut as a 19 year old [against the Pacific Islands in November 2006], Trimble a month after his 21st birthday [against Australia in November 2005] and Earls at about the same age as the Ulster winger, his first Irish cap coming in November 2008 against Canada. McFadden didn’t debut until he was 24 [against Italy in the 2011 Six Nations]; that might seem somewhat beside the point, but again, it’s noticeable that there’s a bit of a sniffy attitude about players who don’t break into the test side as nippers.

Rather than sticking blindly to preconceptions or talking blithely about a player’s ‘class’ when you can’t put your finger on what it is that he does [or doesn't do] that sets him apart, looking at a player’s production can give you a strong pointer as to why he gets the nod in selection, and why maybe it’s not the wrong decision after all.

Hmm a lot of positions are looking quite competitive which is a good sign but makes selection a headache...

15 Kearney
14 McFadden
13 O'Driscoll
12 Marshall
11 Fitzgerald
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 O'Donnell
6 O'Mahoney
5 Toner
4 O'Connell
3 Moore
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross, Touhy, Henry, Reddan, Madigan, Zebo

I'm wondering why people are picking McFadden, even despite Pete's citing that excellent Mole article.

McFadden played 80 minutes against the Saxons and looked very rusty. The last time he was on a rugby pitch before that was against Australia in November. All of the Irish provinces have had Irish wingers getting game time in the period between the AI and the Six Nations and players like Fitzgerald, Dave Kearney and Trimble have been fit and in form.

Given the depth and competition we have on the wings, why pick a guy with almost no recent rugby and no form over someone who has both? This isn't a slur on McFadden either, I think he's been a very effective international but he needs to get some fitness and form with Leinster first does he not? Are we so used to coaches playing favourites with players we don't expect this to happen?

I have a question about Zebo for our Irish supporters.  It seems almost every time I see that lad play he injects a lot of electricity into a match and almost always seems to be on the cusp of breaking a big run.  He also tracks plays well and is usually in good position to take an offload.  I know his defense is not great, but not so bad either.  And he clearly shows his enthusiasm which is great for fans to see.   Since I don't see him nearly as much as you folks so, I'd like to understand why not Zebo in the starting XV?  Or, maybe better put, how do you rate him?

And if you think there are big holes in his game, please let me know so I can tell Lancaster.........

Thanks.

I think he would be pushing for my starting XV, or at least the bench. He is very, very talented and can cover every back three position. Now he's also returning from injury he has a great chance. I still think Schmidt will go with guys who have been fit and in form and slowly re-integrate others.

Of the four back three players in the Wolfhounds game- Jones, Gilroy, Zebo and McFadden- Zebo was the one that truly stood out. He'd be the only one I'd keep in the larger squad.

Notch wrote:I'm wondering why people are picking McFadden, even despite Pete's citing that excellent Mole article.

Because he has a great attitude, commitment and workrate - his try scoring record is excellent and he understands exactly what Joe Schmidt wants from his players.

Neither Gilroy or Trimble are playing anywhere near their best and Zebo isn't fully up to speed either but certainly added something when he came on against the Saxons.

Fitzgerald is without doubt the form winger so starts at 11 for me with McFadden and Zebo favourites for the other wing. Zebo brings more impact from the bench so McFadden starts.

Opposition are going to fear Zebo a lot more than McFadden. Zebo is also superb under the high ball and offers a decent left-footed kicking option. McFadden's defence is also pretty poor.

In what facet of the game is McFadden superior?

Plus the fact Zebo is younger and has actually had more gametime since injury than McFadden.

I don't dispute that McFadden has a great attitude, commitment or work rate- I just question whether he's had enough game time to start this specific game as first choice considering how little there is between the different options on the wing. Is there really a massive gulf between him and the other options?

I'd suggest there are maybe four or five players in that position who you couldn't split with a fag paper.

theslosty wrote:Opposition are going to fear Zebo a lot more than McFadden. Zebo is also superb under the high ball and offers a decent left-footed kicking option. McFadden's defence is also pretty poor.

In what facet of the game is McFadden superior?

Plus the fact Zebo is younger and has actually had more gametime since injury than McFadden.

Workrate, support play, rucking, making short yards in and around the ruck, generally stronger in contact.

Zebo if he's on form offers a lot more in attack, and is more gifted but he can be pretty dire too and make real howlers.

If the game breaks up then having Zebo on the bench is a great option.

True story. Zebo has game breaking ability but McFadden is brutally effective. If you go to that link I posted earlier there you can see an image that shows how McFadden has faired in comparison to the other players on the pitch.

He does very well.

If he wasn't so short of game time I'd have him ahead of Zebo.

As it stands I'd have Zebo and Fitzgerald. I don't think Dave Kearney's form is as good as many people say it is.

Notch wrote:I don't dispute that McFadden has a great attitude, commitment or work rate- I just question whether he's had enough game time to start this specific game as first choice considering how little there is between the different options on the wing.

I agree but I'd say the same about Zebo. Its a tight call. Gilroy looked off the pace a bit which was disappointing and Trimble really isn't in great form for Ulster.

Kearney would be the safe bet but I think other players offer a bit more if fit.

I'm not a great fan of McFadden - his defence has been brutally exposed a lot against top teams - that said he just has a bounce-back-ability and resilience about him....at what he does he's very good - at other things he's terrible.

In the absence of Bowe and question marks against everyone else's form and fitness bar Fitzgerald and Kearney I think he'll come in and do a job, his form was good against the Saxons.

I would have agreed with you Rodders (regarding Trimble) up until this month. He has been very good to excellent in the last three games. Ah I mentioned prior to that he wouldn't have been in the discussion to my mind but he has stood up well during Ulsters most difficult period.

Regarding Tuohy, but I suspect he may be cut from the squad today. The squad is being trimmed to 32 apparently so there is no way you would keep 5 locks in it (I imagine)

I reckon Zebo will be on one of the wings

The other is a very tight call between Fitz/McFadden/Trimble/Kearney
I suggest in the order of likelyhood

Standulstermen wrote:I would have agreed with you Rodders (regarding Trimble) up until this month. He has been very good to excellent in the last three games. Ah I mentioned prior to that he wouldn't have been in the discussion to my mind but he has stood up well during Ulsters most difficult period.

Regarding Tuohy, but I suspect he may be cut from the squad today. The squad is being trimmed to 32 apparently so there is no way you would keep 5 locks in it (I imagine)

No I agree with you he's definitely improved over the past month but he is still some way off his form from last year. He deserves a mention but I'd like to see him get a sustained run of form and a few tries under his belt for confidence.

Yeah Touhy will probably get the chop if McCarthy is fit. He's having a great season though and to me offers the most physical presence out of all the locks.

If international selection goes as it looks it may ulster need to take advantage of the 6N games.

I'd like to see Gilroy and Trimbs back at Ulster to get more games under their belt. Neither are firing on all cylinders just now... although both may benefit from spending more time in the squad to learn the systems.

Bowe will be playing for Ulster in early February to get him up to speed for the last 3 6N games.

...oops forgot about Tommy .... hmm ok keep Trimble and release Gilroy .....

I wouldn't have McFadden in the 23 at this stage, one game since November, he worked hard but I'd definitely start with Zebo and Fitzgerald, with D. Kearney on the bench.

McFadden to make the bench against Italy maybe.

I dont think Schmidt is going to pick Zebo. Luke Fitz should start.

Mickado wrote:I wouldn't have McFadden in the 23 at this stage, one game since November, he worked hard but I'd definitely start with Zebo and Fitzgerald, with D. Kearney on the bench.

McFadden to make the bench against Italy maybe.

I'd go with that but have Henshaw on the bench and use Kearney snr as an emergency winger.I think we need to give Hensham as much gametime as we can and taking BoD off after 50-60 mins would be the right use of resources imo.Obviously there's a risk that you are weak on the wing if there's an injury but you can't cover everything.

I'M glad we can all agree now that neither ROG Stringer or Humpheries should be in the squad ;-). Would anyone else be tempted to give Copeland a game at lock ? I would like to see an option other than Kearney tried at Full Back

We are not going to experiment in this game.

Other than 11,12,14 the side is obvious

James Coughlan also deserves a mention in the conversation age be dammed

Not even in the 55 players mentioned.

He may or may not deserve it - he has no chance of playing.

Copeland, Murphy, Wilson and Pom are all ahead of him rightly or wrongly

tecphobe wrote:James Coughlan also deserves a mention in the conversation age be dammed

James Coughlan.

Now that that's out of the way...   

geoff998rugby wrote:Not even in the 55 players mentioned.

He may or may not deserve it - he has no chance of playing.

Copeland, Murphy, Wilson and Pom are all ahead of him rightly or wrongly

I agree.

They call him the best uncapped provincial player in Ireland in Munster.

ME-109 wrote:I dont think Schmidt is going to pick Zebo. Luke Fitz should start.

Is there attitude issues with Zebo? Is something going on? Bench in the wolfhounds game suggests he being overlooked for some reason. Im not sure it is for injury reasons.

I wonder with James Coughlan if its the same issue with Dan Tuoy face doesn't fit, i do think if he was welsh he would have a shed load of caps reminds me on Michael Owen former wales backrow

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I dont think Schmidt is going to pick Zebo. Luke Fitz should start.

Is there attitude issues with Zebo? Is something going on? Bench in the wolfhounds game suggests he being overlooked for some reason. Im not sure it is for injury reasons.

No idea...maybe its just like the talented popular kid at school who annoys the principal - given Schmidts background I wouldnt be surprised....maybe his face dont fit in like Caves...who knows. I just get a feeling that JS dont like him...pity...

hope I am wrong though...

Declan Kidney was a principle too wasnt he? Would be surprised if Schmidt doesnt want to pick him cause he is talented. There have been a few high profile off field incidents with Zebo. Has this been a factor do you think?

tecphobe wrote:I wonder with James Coughlan if its the same issue with Dan Tuoy face doesn't fit, i do think if he was welsh he would have a shed load of caps reminds me on Michael Owen former wales backrow

Coughlan doesnt have great hands IMO.