Irish RWC: Pick your Locks

Hi all,

Haven't posted here in a long time tbh but I did this for the last world cup and thought it would be good to do again.
I want to get a sense of what the Irish (and non-Irish) 606ers think the Irish squad should be.

I am taking it as near guaranteed that there will be a 17-14 split
6 props
3 hookers
4 locks
4 backrow

3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres
6 outside backs

Locks: Pick 4

O'Connell- Ireland simply don't have a player with a greater work rate. His work in the offensive and defensive maul is simply invaluable. His contribution to offensive and defensive rucks is enormous. This is before you look at his work at set piece and restart and his leadership qualities.
Toner- One of the most improved players in Irish rugby over the last 4 years. He is now a very valued member of the first XV. Lineout work is obvious but the way he get around the pitch is massive and he contributes well to ruck and maul. Is a good ball player as well.
Henderson- Easily the most dynamic option we have. He is the most similar to a modern second row among our options. He is an immense ball carrier, he is seriously effective at ruck time and his defense is very strong. Can play 6. Perhaps his set piece isn't as strong as other options.
Tuohy- I'm a big Tuohy fan. He is dynamic, a good lineout operator for a lock who isn't necessarily tall. He is viscous in rucks and in defense while remaining an effective ball carrier. His injury profile is not good and referees don't seem to be his biggest fans at times.
Ryan- An immense option to have. Delighted he is back from injury. His athleticism is seriously impressive and is boosted by solid lineout work and a lot of dog around the pitch. He is great in defense and is a nuissance at ruck time. Very high work rate also.
Holland- Holland has been a Munster regular for much of the season with Ryan out. His workrate is good and he does a lot of the basics very well. He is strong and excels in the old school Munster game plan, where his maul work and 'grapple/wrestle strength' are utilised.
McCarthy- McCarthy has had another shaky season. He has been pretty hot on linespeed and strong defense but hasn't been so good when it comes to lineout work or breakdown efficiency. One would think he is not playing to his full potential currently.

Please discuss your reasons for voting before you vote as I have not put vote cancelling on and somebody's point of view may sway your decision.

I think this one is ridiculously hard for that fourth spot.
Henderson, toner and poc are nailed on.

The fight between Ryan and touhy is so so so close I think.
Hardest call in the forwards I think

O'Connell, Toner and Henderson are shoo-ins

Not sure about the fourth spot. It's got to be Tuohy or Ryan, and I don't think either has been in great form.

Tuohy has had windows in which he's been excellent, but not since he came back from injury. Ryan has been out of contention so long... I'd let them shoot it out over the warm-up games.

Ryan is a better player when fully firing, but I'll put Tuohy in as I think he's in the driving seat.

For me, if Foley was fit, I'd give him a good chance of beating them both to it, given their current form.

Would foley be back for the warm-ups?

Tuohy gets the 4th spot right now imo but we need to see the warmups and how Ryan gets on with a full preseason.It's going to be a real fight between those 2.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Tuohy gets the 4th spot right now imo but we need to see the warmups and how Ryan gets on with a full preseason.It's going to be a real fight between those 2.

Why do you think Tuohy is marginally in front?
I think Ryan does everything that Tuohy does but is a bit more disciplined

Just because he has the gametime behind him.Ryan has to prove his fitness and get back to top form,if he does that then I think he's marginally the better player plus he can play 6 so I'd probably go with him but right now I think Tuohy has form and fitness going for him.

I'm really hoping they each get a really good preseason in this summer. I think Ryan is the better choice myself and would love to see him go to the RWC. I think he is a slight level above Tuohy.

Gone for O'Connell, Toner, Henderson and Touhy.

First 3 are nailed on so not going to discuss...

Touhy gets the 4th spot for me because if O'Connell gets injured then you need another lock to bind at 4 so that leaves McCarthy or Touhy.

With Henderson able to play 6 (maybe even better at 6) that leaves no place for Ryan imo as 5/6 are well covered.

That is a good point. Does that make him a guaranteed selection then???

I think so, yes.

O'Connell will need rested in at least one game, probably Toner too so Touhy/Henderson will probably be a more cohesive pairing. Everything points to Touhy for me. Unless someone gets injured I think Ryan will miss out.

If Tuohy were to miss out, who would be our sub tighthead lock? Henderson???

Guessing Toner would shift across. I think McCarthy or Touhy will go.

McCarthy doesn't have a hope I don't think.
Schmidt used to like him but I think that ship has sailed

Henderson has hardly any gametime as a lock. If he is going as a lock, it will be as a bench option.

If there are 3 locks going, it will more than likely be POC, Toner, Ryan or Tuohy. I think it will be Ryan because he wasn't on the Emerging Ireland tour (and so, no need to prove his fitness). Ireland could do with his aggression and his familiarity with playing with POC.

Henderson gets the bench spot until he matures a bit and sorts out his attention to detail.

Sin é wrote:Henderson has hardly any gametime as a lock. If he is going as a lock, it will be as a bench option.

You mean like how he's been picked as a bench option for most of the last two Six Nations? Yeah, I'd say that's a 'lock'  

For covering the back five of the pack... Three specialist locks, a lock/blindside and then a blindside, two opensides and two number eights; I think thats the best way to do it. I think there's a good chance the third lock will leapfrog Henderson in the big games if O'Connell or Toner are injured but I'm pretty certain that he'll go with Henderson and a 7/8 on the bench. Henderson is right in that bracket of being a superb impact sub who isn't quite trusted to start in the biggest games. He'll get plenty of game time though

O'Connell
Toner
Tuohy
Henderson
O'Mahony
Henry
O'Brien
Murphy
Heaslip

While men make plans, god laughs. We'll probably see a gutting pre-RWC injury ala Geordan Murphy or David Wallace at some point in the build-up. I hope not.

Hmmmm. Joe has said that he thinks second rows come into their own at about 26, 27. Hendo is still only 23. So I can imagine Joe wants him to grow into the role. But in all honesty, he has been comfortably better than Ryan, Tuohy and, in fact, Toner at the end of the season just passed. The standout Irish forward, I would say.

Now definitely agree with that breakdown of back 5 pack positions notch.

I think a guy like Ruddock is really unlucky to lose out in this regard.

Ps: I still think Toner had an amazing 6Nations. He was absolutely awesome and while he is not popular, he is incredibly effective.

Don Alfonso wrote:Hmmmm. Joe has said that he thinks second rows come into their own at about 26, 27. Hendo is still only 23. So I can imagine Joe wants him to grow into the role. But in all honesty, he has been comfortably better than Ryan, Tuohy and, in fact, Toner at the end of the season just passed. The standout Irish forward, I would say.

That may well be true - but I think pretty much any other top team would have Henderson starting at 6 in the RWC big games. He is the single player we currently have who has the highest ceiling, is playing very well, and can put the fear of god into other teams - if they know about him. If not, they are in for a surprise. But I think Joe will bench him more than I'd like. He'll be a lock, as we don't have enough high quality tall men for lock - if he was South African or English, he would be 100% a backrow.

Don Alfonso wrote:Hmmmm. Joe has said that he thinks second rows come into their own at about 26, 27. Hendo is still only 23. So I can imagine Joe wants him to grow into the role. But in all honesty, he has been comfortably better than Ryan, Tuohy and, in fact, Toner at the end of the season just passed. The standout Irish forward, I would say.

Henderson will need to start playing as a lock and not as a blindside if he is to come into his own at 26 or 27. Players like Lawes, Launchbury, Grey were hitting their straps as locks much earlier in their careers and didn't look out of place.

Henderson has played the sum total of about 80 minutes at lock this season and that usually was less than 20 minutes at the end of a game when of course you are going to look better than other forwards as they have just played 60 minutes of international rugby.

For whatever reason, Schmidt doesn't rate Henderson as highly as most posters here.

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Hmmmm. Joe has said that he thinks second rows come into their own at about 26, 27. Hendo is still only 23. So I can imagine Joe wants him to grow into the role. But in all honesty, he has been comfortably better than Ryan, Tuohy and, in fact, Toner at the end of the season just passed. The standout Irish forward, I would say.

Henderson will need to start playing as a lock and not as a blindside if he is to come into his own at 26 or 27. Players like Lawes, Launchbury, Grey were hitting their straps as locks much earlier in their careers and didn't look out of place.

Henderson has played the sum total of about 80 minutes at lock this season and that usually was less than 20 minutes at the end of a game when of course you are going to look better than other forwards as they have just played 60 minutes of international rugby.

For whatever reason, Schmidt doesn't rate Henderson as highly as most posters here.

Meh. He doesn't have to replicate the trajectory of any of those guys.

And Schmidt doesn't rate him above Toner or O'Connell. That's fine - at this stage, I don't either, not consistently. But O'Connell will be gone at the end of the RWC, and there is no like-for-like replacement. So we'll see how much he features then.

Personally, I hope he gets a couple of start in the next few months anyway.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Hmmmm. Joe has said that he thinks second rows come into their own at about 26, 27. Hendo is still only 23. So I can imagine Joe wants him to grow into the role. But in all honesty, he has been comfortably better than Ryan, Tuohy and, in fact, Toner at the end of the season just passed. The standout Irish forward, I would say.

Henderson will need to start playing as a lock and not as a blindside if he is to come into his own at 26 or 27. Players like Lawes, Launchbury, Grey were hitting their straps as locks much earlier in their careers and didn't look out of place.

Henderson has played the sum total of about 80 minutes at lock this season and that usually was less than 20 minutes at the end of a game when of course you are going to look better than other forwards as they have just played 60 minutes of international rugby.

For whatever reason, Schmidt doesn't rate Henderson as highly as most posters here.

Meh. He doesn't have to replicate the trajectory of any of those guys.

And Schmidt doesn't rate him above Toner or O'Connell. That's fine - at this stage, I don't either, not consistently. But O'Connell will be gone at the end of the RWC, and there is no like-for-like replacement. So we'll see how much he features then.

Personally, I hope he gets a couple of start in the next few months anyway.

He isn't even playing lock at club level. If he can't get ahead of Devin Toner at this stage of his career who in fairness to him, is a hard grafer, he ain't going to be an international standard starting lock next 6 Nations. Don't forget Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy & Dave Foley are also capped international locks.

At this stage of his career? He turned 23 a few months ago.

Were any of the three you mention capped at 22? Are any of them ahead of POC or Toner now?

Anyway, agree to disagree - I think we've both made up our minds.

Don Alfonso wrote:At this stage of his career? He turned 23 a few months ago.

Were any of the three you mention capped at 22? Are any of them ahead of POC or Toner now?

Anyway, agree to disagree - I think we've both made up our minds.

Jonny Gray was 19 when he was capped. He has 10 starts for Scotland and he is only 21.

Launchbury is 10 months older than Henderson and has 22 caps for England at 21 (and was England player of the AIs last season).

POC has named checked Gray as being a great young player.

Henderson will need to get the finger out to be regarded as being a certain starter at lock once POC retires. It would seem to me he wants to play in the backrow anyway and he is going to have his work cut out for him to shift POM from blindside (POM captained Ireland at Henderson's age). He probably has a better chance if he works on being a lock of getting a starting place, but maybe he is happy to be the impact sub.

I meant Ryan, Tuohy and Foley.

Hendo's competition.

I thought that was self-evident.

No matter.

Don Alfonso wrote:I meant Ryan, Tuohy and Foley.

Hendo's competition.

I thought that was self-evident.

No matter.

Ryan, Tuohy or Foley are not regarded as highly in these parts as Henderson is though! Henderson is spoken about as being the best forward in Ireland. He is way over hyped.

He was putting the best forward performances in at the end of the season. Not the same thing.

I actually agree he's a bit overhyped. But he's coming good. And he's way down the list of hype-talent disparity. JJ, Madigan. Marmion, McGrath, Zebo, Marshall, Casey etc.

I don't think he's overhyped at all.

O'Connell is the best forward in Ireland still but Henderson is the most exciting forward talent we've produced since Sean O'Brien.

He's a class apart from O'Mahoney, Touhy, Ryan and the other guy's mentioned above. His biggest competition is probably from CJ Stander and Ruddock to start in the back row in the longer term.  

I'm a big fan of Toner though - it will be Toner plus a.n. other once POC retires - I can see Henderson switching between lock and 6 for a while yet.

wolfball wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Hmmmm. Joe has said that he thinks second rows come into their own at about 26, 27. Hendo is still only 23. So I can imagine Joe wants him to grow into the role. But in all honesty, he has been comfortably better than Ryan, Tuohy and, in fact, Toner at the end of the season just passed. The standout Irish forward, I would say.

That may well be true - but I think pretty much any other top team would have Henderson starting at 6 in the RWC big games. He is the single player we currently have who has the highest ceiling, is playing very well, and can put the fear of god into other teams - if they know about him. If not, they are in for a surprise. But I think Joe will bench him more than I'd like. He'll be a lock, as we don't have enough high quality tall men for lock - if he was South African or English, he would be 100% a backrow.  

Good point wolfball.

I much prefer to see Henderson in the backrow, and would like to see him played at 8 for Ulster.

rodders wrote:I don't think he's overhyped at all.

O'Connell is the best forward in Ireland still but Henderson is the most exciting forward talent we've produced since Sean O'Brien.

He's a class apart from O'Mahoney, Touhy, Ryan and the other guy's mentioned above. His biggest competition is probably from CJ Stander and Ruddock to start in the back row in the longer term.  

I'm a big fan of Toner though - it will be Toner plus a.n. other once POC retires - I can see Henderson switching between lock and 6 for a while yet.

Schmidt said recently at one of these club Q&As in Leinster (in case you think he was trying to be populist) that Jack O'Donoghue is the best young forward in Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think he's overhyped at all.

O'Connell is the best forward in Ireland still but Henderson is the most exciting forward talent we've produced since Sean O'Brien.

He's a class apart from O'Mahoney, Touhy, Ryan and the other guy's mentioned above. His biggest competition is probably from CJ Stander and Ruddock to start in the back row in the longer term.  

I'm a big fan of Toner though - it will be Toner plus a.n. other once POC retires - I can see Henderson switching between lock and 6 for a while yet.

Schmidt said recently at one of these club Q&As in Leinster (in case you think he was trying to be populist) that Jack O'Donoghue is the best young forward in Ireland.

Yes -  and as Henderson is a senior international he wasn't considered as a "Young forward". Hence its Henderson in the match day squad not O'Donoghue.

Look I understand that given the Munster talisman O'Mahoney hides behind his sofa every time Henderson's name is mention and Munster legend Quinny rates him as the best 6 in Ireland, that you are reluctant to acknowledge how great Henderson is publically but I know deep down you are a big fan.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think he's overhyped at all.

O'Connell is the best forward in Ireland still but Henderson is the most exciting forward talent we've produced since Sean O'Brien.

He's a class apart from O'Mahoney, Touhy, Ryan and the other guy's mentioned above. His biggest competition is probably from CJ Stander and Ruddock to start in the back row in the longer term.  

I'm a big fan of Toner though - it will be Toner plus a.n. other once POC retires - I can see Henderson switching between lock and 6 for a while yet.

Schmidt said recently at one of these club Q&As in Leinster (in case you think he was trying to be populist) that Jack O'Donoghue is the best young forward in Ireland.

Yes -  and as Henderson is a senior international he wasn't considered as a "Young forward". Hence its Henderson in the match day squad not O'Donoghue.

Look I understand that given the Munster talisman O'Mahoney hides behind his sofa every time Henderson's name is mention and Munster legend Quinny rates him as the best 6 in Ireland, that you are reluctant to acknowledge how great Henderson is publically but I know deep down you are a big fan.

And how senior is Henderson - out of 17 caps he has 3 starts (v USA & Italy as a flanker and v Argentina as a Lock). O'Mahony captained Ireland at the same age and became a regular starter after about 4 games (30 caps with 4 sub appearances).

Sean O'Brien became a regular starter after 3 sub appearances (36 caps with 5 sub appearances).

At this moment in time, Henderson is just a super sub. He is just not trusted to start in any of the big games. If he had any ambition he would have got ahead of Toner at least.

And Henderson is a young forward - he is only 23 - O'Donoghue is 2 years younger and has hardly started his pro career yet (he is still in Munster academy for another year).

Sin é wrote:





And how senior is Henderson - out of 17 caps he has 3 starts (v USA & Italy as a flanker and v Argentina as a Lock). O'Mahony captained Ireland at the same age and became a regular starter after about 4 games (30 caps with 4 sub appearances).

Sean O'Brien became a regular starter after 3 sub appearances (36 caps with 5 sub appearances).

At this moment in time, Henderson is just a super sub. He is just not trusted to start in any of the big games. If he had any ambition he would have got ahead of Toner at least.

And Henderson is a young forward - he is only 23 - O'Donoghue is 2 years younger and has hardly started his pro career yet (he is still in Munster academy for another year).

Do you watch any rugby outside of Munster matches?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:





And how senior is Henderson - out of 17 caps he has 3 starts (v USA & Italy as a flanker and v Argentina as a Lock). O'Mahony captained Ireland at the same age and became a regular starter after about 4 games (30 caps with 4 sub appearances).

Sean O'Brien became a regular starter after 3 sub appearances (36 caps with 5 sub appearances).

At this moment in time, Henderson is just a super sub. He is just not trusted to start in any of the big games. If he had any ambition he would have got ahead of Toner at least.

And Henderson is a young forward - he is only 23 - O'Donoghue is 2 years younger and has hardly started his pro career yet (he is still in Munster academy for another year).

Do you watch any rugby outside of Munster matches?

Yes. Internationals that Toner plays in!

So when do you think Henderson should have taken Toners place?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:So when do you think Henderson should have taken Toners place?

When he was better than Toner.

When was that in your opinion?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:When was that in your opinion?

It hasn't happened.

Okay then I don't understand what your point is,are you trying to say he hasn't become a better player than Toner purely because he lacks ambition?How can you justify that,you don't know the man so are you purely going on that one off comment from BoD about him which you bring up so often?

I think Henderson isn't going get very far with Schmidt as his coach unless he puts his head down and grafts.

And the evidence - a talented player like Henderson should have a lot more starting caps than he has at present. Even that renowned sub, Paddy Wallace started 50% of his caps.

Sin é wrote:At this moment in time, Henderson is just ... super

Totally agree sin

Should he replace POM, POC or Ryan, though?

Don Alfonso wrote:Should he replace POM, POC or Ryan, though?

I'd say Henderson should be worried. He has been unable to nail down a starting place as a lock or as a blindside and Donnacha Ryan has been alternating between 4 and 6 for his last few games for Munster.

I wonder was this at the request of the Ireland management - something similar happened in 2011 when Ryan was selected ahead of Toner for the bench spot.

In fairness it didn't exactly pan out for Ryan - absolutely anonymous in the Por12 final at blind-side, whereas Henderson had been putting in storming MotM performances.

Sin é wrote:I think Henderson isn't going get very far with Schmidt as his coach unless he puts his head down and grafts.

And the evidence - a talented player like Henderson should have a lot more starting caps than he has at present. Even that renowned sub, Paddy Wallace started 50% of his caps.

Do you think he'd be in the matchday squads and trusted to come on at crucial stages of big matches if he wasn't already putting his head down and grafting?

Your evidence isn't evidence at all,it's just deflection.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think Henderson isn't going get very far with Schmidt as his coach unless he puts his head down and grafts.

And the evidence - a talented player like Henderson should have a lot more starting caps than he has at present. Even that renowned sub, Paddy Wallace started 50% of his caps.

Do you think he'd be in the matchday squads and trusted to come on at crucial stages of big matches if he wasn't already putting his head down and grafting?

Your evidence isn't evidence at all,it's just deflection.

He still isn't good enough to start, unlike Ryan. Your so called crucial stage is when the opposition locks (usually their better ones) are knackered tired. Toner is usually in bits at that stage and should probably have been taken off at 50 minutes.

Ah Sin e is just spoofing you. If Henderson was from Limerick he'd be the second coming of POC, ye all know that.

Henderson - from ChildMan to ManBeast (TM)

Well that's your opinion and that's fine but you still haven't shown that he isn't putting his head down and grafting.Your original post said that if he had any ambition he would have got ahead of Toner at least.Lowering myself to your level for a moment I will ask does that also apply to Ryan who waited on the bench until he was 27 before he could command a starting spot with Munster or JJ Hanrahan who obviously lacks ambition since he didn't get ahead of Keatley?

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think Henderson isn't going get very far with Schmidt as his coach unless he puts his head down and grafts.

And the evidence - a talented player like Henderson should have a lot more starting caps than he has at present. Even that renowned sub, Paddy Wallace started 50% of his caps.

Do you think he'd be in the matchday squads and trusted to come on at crucial stages of big matches if he wasn't already putting his head down and grafting?

Your evidence isn't evidence at all,it's just deflection.

He still isn't good enough to start, unlike Ryan. Your so called crucial stage is when the opposition locks (usually their better ones) are knackered tired. Toner is usually in bits at that stage and should probably have been taken off at 50 minutes.

Behave yourself, Sin é.

What is your problem with Henderson? He isn't starting because O'Connell and Toner happen to be in front of him. O'Connell starting is a no brainer and Toner starts because of his line out ability as well as his experience under Schmidt.
As for not jumping in to rescue the exhausted Toner; you're forgetting that Henderson is also a great option at Blindside, and so Schmidt plays it safe with the bench. Maybe too safe at times when thinking back to when we lost against England when Sexton should have been subbed.
Schmidt himself has said that he thinks Locks come into their own around the age of 26/27, and just maybe he thinks it's a bit early for Henderson to start. He might also be hoping that someone else can prove their worth at lock which would allow him to slot Henderson in at 6. His preferred position.

Ach, c'mon lads. Youse are being disingenuous. We know exactly what the issue is here. Hendo is a Double Threat to Munster players. Best back-up six, best back-up four.

Imagine Sin if we won a World Cup with one of POC or POM and Murray starting, and ex-Leinsterman Felix Jones on the bench. Ooof! Where's Wally? Where's ROG? Where's Fla? I don't like this brave new world!

Have a heart lads.