Sam Burgess for England 2015

My news feed has just been bombarded with news that NRL superstar Sam Burgess has signed a 3 year deal with an english premiership club.

It is also reported that the RFU paid a significant part in raising the money to ensure his release from his contract, he will be heading to Bath according to reports.

I haven't seen much of him in the NRL perhaps someone with better knowledge could comment on how good he actually is?

The big Questions on my mind are:

Where will he play ?

Does England have room for him ?

Exciting times.  

He's supposedly the best forward in the NRL. According to some news outlets.

Could be an asset for England if he can convert to rugby in the very short time frame available. Not sure where he sees himself slotting in. I would imagine as a mid fielder given lancaster's penchant for that sort of thing.

I'm guessing lock, a la Brad Thorn and Nathen Hines. I think the intricacies of the ruck, etc make loose forward a step to far in the short term. Apparently he's about 1.96m and 116 kg. So he's probably physically suited for blind side. Although, apparently he's staying in league.

He's a big brute and dominates the physical stuff. Can give away a few pens with silly stuff but I rate him in the NRL. Good league player.

blackcanelion wrote:I'm guessing lock, a la Brad Thorn and Nathen Hines. I think the intricacies of the ruck, etc make loose forward a step to far in the short term. Apparently he's about 1.96m and 116 kg. So he's probably physically suited for blind side. Although, apparently he's staying in league.

So yo don't think he posses the skills to be a 12? a partnership of him and Manu is a frightening thought.

Still only rumours then, nothing official.......can we merge the threads please? (theres one in general ru)

Just what england need to solve their centre problems, a re brand and more to choose from when the embarrassment of riches they have is the main problem they will keep chopping and changing their side instead of sticking to a very small cadre.

Also you would think Union would learn that League players don't transition well, i can think of only 1 or 2 that have done it with any success.

Scratch wrote:Just what england need to solve their centre problems, a re brand and more to choose from when the embarrassment of riches they have is the main problem they will keep chopping and changing their side instead of sticking to a very small cadre.

Also you would think Union would learn that League players don't transition well, i can think of only 1 or 2 that have done it with any success.

Do you think its a bit of a gamble?

Personally I think this is borderline madness, right on the cusp of genius, but definitely on the side of madness.

However the more I think about this the dafter it seems; from all the reports I've read they've speculated he'd play IC, but surely at 115kg he won't have the pace required of an international centre? And though its often bemoaned, does he have the requisite passing distribution spacial understanding, other than the RL offloading game, which is the key role of the IC position?

If they are in anyway serious then he would need to play 6 or 8, but 12 is I think far to much of a stretch.

I can't think that Kyle Eastmond will be a happy bunny this morning.

Its been denied by the RFU. It always struck as a bit fanciful especially as theyve been burnt every time theyve tried it and goes against Lancaster policy of picking players hes coached for their whole career.

Was very impressed with him in the world cup, which admittedly is the only time I've seen him play.

I've play him at 8 for England. Seems to have the right sort of build and power from a standing start. Would be a good attacking option from the scrum IMO.

People think this is good ? Never played Union but being fast tracked in and half a million spent on him.

What kind of message is this to 12 trees, Eastmond etc ?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/south-sydney-star-sam-burgess-quits-nrl-for-lucrative-english-rugby-deal/story-fni3fbgz-1226819363565

munkian wrote:People think this is good ? Never played Union but being fast tracked in and half a million spent on him.

What kind of message is this to 12 trees, Eastmond etc ?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/south-sydney-star-sam-burgess-quits-nrl-for-lucrative-english-rugby-deal/story-fni3fbgz-1226819363565

A very clear one: you're not playing very well. I think it's a ruse to put the fear of God into the current centre combinations. We don't think much of you. Sort yourselves out or we'll find people with no experience to replace you. This has Rob Andrew written all over it.   

If that story has any basis in truth at all, I wonder if it indicates the England coaches and RFU are concerned that Tuilagi is a fitness doubt for the World Cup.

Burgess may well make an effective back row player but he's not going to learn that role in a year. Midfield would still be a big ask, of course.

EngInAuck wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:I'm guessing lock, a la Brad Thorn and Nathen Hines. I think the intricacies of the ruck, etc make loose forward a step to far in the short term. Apparently he's about 1.96m and 116 kg. So he's probably physically suited for blind side. Although, apparently he's staying in league.

So yo don't think he posses the skills to be a 12? a partnership of him and Manu is a frightening thought.

Not really. I think Wales have proven now that picking big lumps to crash into the mid-field just doesn't work. And England certainly should've learned that lesson after the diminutive Fickou scythed through last week to embarrass them late on!

Rugby Fan wrote:If that story has any basis in truth at all, I wonder if it indicates the England coaches and RFU are concerned that Tuilagi is a fitness doubt for the World Cup.

Burgess may well make an effective back row player but he's not going to learn that role in a year. Midfield would still be a big ask, of course.

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/213613.html

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/sam-burgess-leaving-rabbitohs-for-english-rugby-report-suggests-20140206-322t4.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2552634/England-grab-league-superstar-Sam-Burgess-fast-track-World-Cup-plans.html

(UGH,,,DAILY MAIL)

I suppose the question is if he is coming, where do England need him? At 8? Well Vunipola and Morgan in my opinion are the men to battle out for the jersey for the future, so not here.

Second Row - Lawes and Launch have been immense, Attwood and Parling also good, excellent young locks coming through as well, what message does that send?

12- Hmmm I think a lot of our centre issues are caused by too much chopping and changing, if he dominates the position for Bath then can't argue but this smacks of desperation.

SBW played his first game for the All Blacks less than 12 months prior to the world cup, which he went on to win, of course.

The question is, if Burgess is as good as SBW...

GloriousEmpire wrote:SBW played his first game for the All Blacks less than 12 months prior to the world cup, which he went on to win, of course.

The question is, if Burgess is as good as SBW...

No, the question is, will England be as good as the All Blacks in the World Cup ? SBW didn't win it by himself.

munkian wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:SBW played his first game for the All Blacks less than 12 months prior to the world cup, which he went on to win, of course.

The question is, if Burgess is as good as SBW...

No, the question is, will England be as good as the All Blacks in the World Cup ? SBW didn't win it by himself.

Don't forget Mukian that it was easy for the All Blacks because they were playing at home.

I should imagine it will be just as easy for England, given they are playing at home.

It is a massive advantage playing at home.

Yes, England should walk it. I'm not sure why the others are bothering to show up. I think the NZRU had the right idea. Don't bother, save the money.

Sonny Bill Williams isn't a good comparison as far as the timing of switching codes goes. He started his union career with Toulon in 2008 and played 33 games for them as well as a run-out with the Baa-Baas against Australia. Only then did he move to Super Rugby and win his first All Black cap.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yes, England should walk it. I'm not sure why the others are bothering to show up. I think the NZRU had the right idea. Don't bother, save the money.

I didn't say that. I just said it was a massive advantage.

It still might not be enough for England to win it with the current side but I'm still confident they can do well.

Only the truly great teams win the World Cup outside their own country, wouldn't you agree GE?

EngInAuck wrote:
I haven't seen much of him in the NRL perhaps someone with better knowledge could comment on how good he actually is?

The big Questions on my mind are:

Where will he play ?

Does England have room for him ?

Exciting times.  

The man is an absolute beast, immensely powerful in attack and defence.

I'd see him in the centre myself. Not sure how well he'll adapt to Union but it will be interesting anyways.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

munkian wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:SBW played his first game for the All Blacks less than 12 months prior to the world cup, which he went on to win, of course.

The question is, if Burgess is as good as SBW...

No, the question is, will England be as good as the All Blacks in the World Cup ? SBW didn't win it by himself.

Don't forget Mukian that it was easy for the All Blacks because they were playing at home.

I should imagine it will be just as easy for England, given they are playing at home.

It was easier for New Zealand: they were the best side in the world AND had home advantage.  That's practically cheating.

I can't see him as a centre, but he's a big talent. For me  he's harder than Sonny Bill but a bit less skilled with the ball in hand. He has a reputation now for being dirty but being an English hardman in the NRL drives a need to be a bit harder than hard if you are going to get the same recognition.  Morley was the same.

My bush-league vibe thinks it'd be a good signing, and my crystal balls would say no impact for 2015 WC because he's more forward than back and that'll take time, but he's a talent and could do something pretty good beyond that.

All the talk of England caps is a bit premature. The RFU are denying theyve had anything to do with it, this is purely a club to club deal.
Obviously hed be looked at but this isnt something being driven by Lancaster or his overlords.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:All the talk of England caps is a bit premature. The RFU are denying theyve had anything to do with it, this is purely a club to club deal.
Obviously hed be looked at but this isnt something being driven by Lancaster or his overlords.

Sure about that ? Theres talk of the RFU chipping in to his transfer costs.

Reports surfaced last weekend saying Burgess was approached by England coach Andy Farrell during the Rugby League World Cup about a potential cross-code switch though the RFU has since denied any approach.

Stuart Lancaster said: "I can't comment on it, other than the fact that I haven't, or no one from the RFU, has approached the Rabbitohs. We'll have to wait and see, it's not for me to decide. He's under contract at the Rabbitohs as far as I'm aware."


Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/213613.html#JrlDsylm0FpcFV3W.99

To be fair you could read that as " we are chipping in but we didnt make the approach"

That aside it does seem bonkers to imagine they can turn a forward into SBW overnight. The whole policy of funding these transfers was supposed to have been ditched after the previous fiascos.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7586836.stm

We've made it very clear our policy is not to recruit league players," said RFU director of elite rugby Rob Andrew.
"That's because of the structure in terms of how we're funding the clubs and the top end of the game."
League players are still moving to union, with Bradford Bulls centre Shontayne Hape recently moving to Bath and promising Leeds back Danny Williams switching to Newcastle Falcons.
But the union clubs involved in those deals have had to find the finances without assistance from the RFU.
"It would have to be an extraordinary situation for (England manager) Martin Johnson to come to us recommending a league player and for us to sign him," said Andrew.
"But if there was a player like that then it's very likely that he would not already have been signed by a Gloucester or Bath.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:That aside it does seem bonkers to imagine they can turn a forward into SBW overnight.

Well SBW was/is a forward too and he did literally become SBW overnight.

Why would England make an offer to a League player just over a year before the RWC? There is zero certainty any League player can play Rugby and make it at club level, let alone make it to international levels. OK, I don't follow League at all, so can someone tell me if this guy is so special? Seems illogical.

I'm not convinced he can make the step up to international level in our game, but as a League player he is one of the very best around, in any position.

Massive tackler and breaks tackles with ease

He was a class League player. I'd much rather the RFU hadn't done this and had left him in League

rodders wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:That aside it does seem bonkers to imagine they can turn a forward into SBW overnight.

Well SBW was/is a forward too and he did literally become SBW overnight.

Didn't he have a horrible start as an average flanker, then a flashy impact sub winger before finally clicking in his 3rd season then leaving at the end of that?

If he is being touted as a 12, let's go back and take a look at the wonderful centres that league converts have made:

Henry Paul. So good at league, but just didn't/couldn't do it at union. Famously subbed 24 minutes into a match.

Andy Farrell. One of GB's best ever at league - a proper legend. Costs an absolute fortune at the tail end of his career, can't play due to injury for what seemed like ages and then Saracens couldn't make up their minds whether to play him at 6 or 12, before finally settling on 12, where he made next to no impact whatsoever, before retiring to coach.

Barrie-Jon Mather. Seen as the "next best thing" in English rugby, Mather was huge, and allegedly had the skillset and size to be an absolute brute with the hands of a scrum half. Had one cap and faded into obscurity.

Let's also not forget the "success" that was Lesley Vainikolo, and also the high profile code-swap-and-then-back-again farce of big chinned Willie Mason.

League players do not always make good union players. Actually it seems that most high profile signings aren't that good at making the transition. There are a few that do well: Thorn, Robinson & SBW spring to mind. But they are the exception rather than the rule.

From what I've seen of him he's pretty standout in the English set up. The difference between him and a guy like Farrell was that Farrell was what 31 when he moved, this guy is 25 and would be able to grow into the sport... but it would take some time no doubt.

In time for the RWC, perhaps a squad place given England aren't too strong particularly at 12 but it will take time and 12 months out will not be enough. He would have to move immediately to even stand a chance.

13 I think would be too difficult with such time constraints. 12 is much easier to pick up.

ChequeredJersey wrote:He was a class League player. I'd much rather the RFU hadn't done this and had left him in League

Again why blame the RFU? Theres no evidence other than them denying it that they did and them explicitly having a policy to not fund such switches. Its Bath that are looking to sign him.

Ill hold my hand up and say fair enough if someone can provide some evidence beyond one press report which has been rehashed by other outlets with no verification of the rumour the RFU are funding this. Even where it sis reported its stated as " its is thought " or " its is assumed".

In the minds of the public it seemed to be fact that Lancaster sent Farrell out to tap him up with a huge bundle of cash and forced Bath into taking him on and now Tuilagi is injured beyond repair our center partnership for the world cup will be Eastmond and Burgess. All this extrapolated by imagination based on the known fact ..Bath are trying to sign him. The rest is just conjecture which doenst seem to fit common sense or previous statements of policy or the direct denials issued by the RFU and Lancaster.

I heard England are targeting 2019 anyway...I was it 3019?

GloriousEmpire wrote:I heard England are targeting 2019 anyway...I was it 3019?

2003

Ok, I wish that Bath had left him in League!

Why do they need a 12 or backrower anyway? And how can they afford him?

Mr Bounce...dont forget Yestyn harris (or however you spell his name)

And i thought Kyle Eastmond was bought to be that 12?  

Anyway has this actually gone through or just talk.

Also what signal doesnt his send out to young english centres coming through, like Hill at Exeter, Burrell, 36...and dont Bath themselves have Devoto coming through?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ok, I wish that Bath had left him in League!

Why do they need a 12 or backrower anyway? And how can they afford him?

Ask the owner of Toulon.

Under the cap they can as a marquee signing. They have a pretty bottomless pit of cash and owners seemingly willing to splurge it on anything other than sorting out the ground once and for all.

How can they ever hope to turn a profit? God knows. But Lewis Moody isnt complaining too much about the soccernomics after his pension top up.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mr Bounce...dont forget Yestyn harris (or however you spell his name)

And i thought Kyle Eastmond was bought to be that 12?  

Anyway has this actually gone through or just talk.

Also what signal doesnt his send out to young english centres coming through, like Hill at Exeter, Burrell, 36...and dont Bath themselves have Devoto coming through?

Iestyn Harris was rubbish in league though too. He was slow, couldn't pass, couldn't kick and was average height, average build. The only thing that he was worth watching for was the single tear he would shed during the anthems.

This kid however looks very impressive from the cameo's I've caught here and there, if he comes into union he will be successful and at 6'5 and 115kg he will be a handful. He needs time, 12 months may be too soon but a couple of years and he will be a top class player IMO.

If Burgess is going to make the switch, I doubt whether anyone will seriously have told him he has a good chance at making international grade in time for the next World Cup. It's not impossible, but the odds would have to be long.

More likely, Andy Farrell will have pointed out that he left his own switch too late to enjoy much of a run in union. He may have told Burgess that the sooner he moves, the more years he'll have to enjoy a senior career if he can make the grade.

If he misses the 2015 World Cup, there's still an England tour of Australia in 2016, a Lions Tour of New Zealand in 2017, an England tour of South Africa in 2018, and the next World Cup in 2019.

That's a tidy schedule for any ambitious player to aim at.

Rugby Fan wrote:If Burgess is going to make the switch, I doubt whether anyone will seriously have told him he has a good chance at making international grade in time for the next World Cup.

Except possibly anyone getting 10% of his fee.

Sam B is an absolute God-send for Stewie. He could, and would, play him in every position. Maybe in a single game.

fa0019 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mr Bounce...dont forget Yestyn harris (or however you spell his name)

And i thought Kyle Eastmond was bought to be that 12?  

Anyway has this actually gone through or just talk.

Also what signal doesnt his send out to young english centres coming through, like Hill at Exeter, Burrell, 36...and dont Bath themselves have Devoto coming through?

Iestyn Harris was rubbish in league though too. He was slow, couldn't pass, couldn't kick and was average height, average build. The only thing that he was worth watching for was the single tear he would shed during the anthems.

This kid however looks very impressive from the cameo's I've caught here and there, if he comes into union he will be successful and at 6'5 and 115kg he will be a handful. He needs time, 12 months may be too soon but a couple of years and he will be a top class player IMO.

Farrell was a league great, Henry Paul was, Vainikolo a rampaging beast in league...etc etc. What we're trying to say is its irrelevant how good they are in League...this is union and may aswell be a different sport....

Farrell was on his way down though... the best years were behind him.

The problem isn't talent, its replicating the talent into union.

My own opinion, i think Burgess has the best years ahead of him and is good enough to make a huge impact. He is more mobile than Farrell was and would suit centre more.

Paul - its always difficult for a league standoff to make it in union. I wonder how Marshall will do in union. I think he will be a bit like Carlos Spencer.... total skills but perhaps lacking the conservative authority which union 10s need to be all-round great players.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Except possibly anyone getting 10% of his fee.

I know you have your tongue in your cheek but I'd imagine James Erskine, who is Sam Burgess' commercial agent, wouldn't mind having a few more clients in union, so would be happy to see his man make the switch. Erskine already has Matt Giteau on his books and he'll know very well how big some of those French contracts are getting.