Sam Burgess for England 2015

First topic message reminder :

My news feed has just been bombarded with news that NRL superstar Sam Burgess has signed a 3 year deal with an english premiership club.

It is also reported that the RFU paid a significant part in raising the money to ensure his release from his contract, he will be heading to Bath according to reports.

I haven't seen much of him in the NRL perhaps someone with better knowledge could comment on how good he actually is?

The big Questions on my mind are:

Where will he play ?

Does England have room for him ?

Exciting times.  

Cyril wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:League players aren't fitter. Burgess is a lump and will need to drop a few pounds to keep pace with union. He also seems to be a bit of a hot head.

League players a definitely fitter guns, not to extent they used to be but its still a much quicker game with very few stoppages.

Agreed. In terms of intensity League is higher.

When Andy Powell moved to League I remember both him and the coaches stressing how it took him by surprise how difficult it was to keep up with the pace and relentless nature of the game, even in training.

You rarely get breaks in the same way. Union players get plenty of breathers with the set piece.

Obviously if he was a forward the scrum/ruck/maul would take some getting used to in terms of strength and energy sapping.

That's because Powell is a forward. League players are like hybrid back forwards. Burgess certainly is anyway. Union forwards are less fit union backs are fitter than league players. Burgess will need to tone up and drop a few pounds or he will be just another failed league convert.

People think that because some of the finest specimen league players come to union, Robinson, SBW, Marshall and Folau that league players are fitter. They aren't. The are possibly bigger but they're not fitter.

ebop wrote:Bulk up!! Hope not Hoody :)I checked his stats on wiki and he's 6 ft 5 in and 116 kg which compares with Jerome Kaino at 6 ft 5 in and 113 kg. Assuming the stats are right, he could fit the 6 and wouldn't look little. I don't think I've ever seen him pass. Seen him steam roll many a player in the NRL though.

Blimey is he that tall?! Yeah perhaps you're right! Me neither, deft offloads out of the back of the hand don't seem his style   

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its a partly to do with the role he will play. Converting a  forward is harder than converting a back. Ok he can be a 12, problem is you then have Matt Banahan at 12 again..albeit an upgraded version. He cant/wont pass and isnt exactly a kicker.
Hes just a big lump of momentum and nastiness without the raw pace of SBW.

Bath seem willing to risk huge sums of money on everything except sorting their stadium out.

Agreed, I think he could be a very good 6 in two years time, maybe 3, but it's a big ask. As a 12? I just don't see it. Every opposition knows what he'll do, bosh.

An England pack with him, the Vunipolas, Morgan, Garvey and Lawes would be hilarious though. None of this fancy foreign passing muck, just good old fashioned running at the nearest defender and seeing who gets injured first.

GunsGerms wrote:
People think that because some of the finest specimen league players come to union, Robinson, SBW, Marshall and Folau that league players are fitter. They aren't. The are possibly bigger but they're not fitter.

No I think it because I've played both and I know which one is physically harder.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
People think that because some of the finest specimen league players come to union, Robinson, SBW, Marshall and Folau that league players are fitter. They aren't. The are possibly bigger but they're not fitter.

No I think it because I've played both and I know which one is physically harder.

So have I but like you haven't played either at professional or international level. "Physically harder wasn't the question". Who is fitter was the question. Basically Burgess will need to drop weight and become fitter if he wants to play centre for England. No question about that.

Like Basteraud.

Or Morgan

Because Morgan plays centre?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because Morgan plays centre?

I thought we were naming fatties....

No. Otherwise Adam Jones would have been 1st up.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
People think that because some of the finest specimen league players come to union, Robinson, SBW, Marshall and Folau that league players are fitter. They aren't. The are possibly bigger but they're not fitter.

No I think it because I've played both and I know which one is physically harder.

So have I, and one involves more running and less rest, true, but one involves muscle fatigue from hitting rucks and scrummaging! Though I was an 18 year old playing League against Australian men so mostly what happened was I got smashed

ChequeredJersey wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
People think that because some of the finest specimen league players come to union, Robinson, SBW, Marshall and Folau that league players are fitter. They aren't. The are possibly bigger but they're not fitter.

No I think it because I've played both and I know which one is physically harder.

So have I, and one involves more running and less rest, true, but one involves muscle fatigue from hitting rucks and scrummaging! Though I was an 18 year old playing League against Australian men so mostly what happened was I got smashed

Maybe that explains the differing experiences ....   

If he starts in Oct he has 4 months to become so good he is justified as a pick for the 6 Nations. Is he distantly related to the Farrells?

I think Burgess can stay near the same size. He's an awesome physical specimen and from what I've seen imposes himself on any defence.

Lets look at some of the best 12s in the game of recent years

Frans Steyn 6'3 110kg
JDV 6'3 103kg
Roberts 6'4 110kg
Nonu 6'0 106kg
Basteraud 6'0 119kg

Sam Burgess 6'5 116kg. A bit on the heavier side but he would also be the tallest of the above group so I doubt he has to drop any weight. League is quite a fast paced game. It has less stops in play, fewer players on the pitch to cover ground and the ball spends more time in hand. I doubt their are many league players around with a bit of puppy fat. Those guys are pretty lean... or if not, stacked.

He can't get too light else he may suffer the old lock issue... heavy, tall and easy to upturn.

Not sure anyone is going to argue that Basteraud isn't over weight so not sure he is a great example. Everyone else is considerably lighter.

Others: SBW is 106kg, Gordon Darcy 91kg,

Is it true D'arcy's beard weighs 20 kilos?

100-110kg looks like the norm. But given he's 6'5 amonst say an average of 6'1-6'2 I don't think he's overweight.

If Basteraud lost 10kg he would be the world's best 12 IMO. I think Burgess BMI would still be less.

Just need George Burgess to move across as an 8 now, maybe to Newcastle...worth a try.

If Burgess is on that sort of time-scale could we be looking at him on the wing to start with a view to moving him to centre. I certainly think either left or right wing would be open to him both at Bath and for England.

I have to say I think that's the most likely option. The same happened to Eastmond, and it's the best way for him to learn the game whilst involved.

Who's to say he has to play centre?

fa0019 wrote:100-110kg looks like the norm. But given he's 6'5 amonst say an average of 6'1-6'2 I don't think he's overweight.

If Basteraud lost 10kg he would be the world's best 12 IMO. I think Burgess BMI would still be less.

Well if he is so tall maybe he should be a lock or a backrow? Mind you English rugby isn't really known for dynamic centres so perhaps he is exactly what the RFU is looking for?

Matt Banahan is 6'7 and 118kg but never made any impact at centre. It is a little sad that teams seem to be favouring lumps like Roberts over guys with fast feet and good hands of the Darcy mould.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:100-110kg looks like the norm. But given he's 6'5 amonst say an average of 6'1-6'2 I don't think he's overweight.

If Basteraud lost 10kg he would be the world's best 12 IMO. I think Burgess BMI would still be less.

Well if he is so tall maybe he should be a lock or a backrow? Mind you English rugby isn't really known for dynamic centres so perhaps he is exactly what the RFU is looking for?

Matt Banahan is 6'7 and 118kg but never made any impact at centre. It is a little sad that teams seem to be favouring lumps like Roberts over guys with fast feet and good hands of the Darcy mould.

Banahan had one game for England at centre at was owned by BOD. Unsurprisingly. He did however, go on to convert to 12 for Bath and actually has played well there, developing a good kicking game. Now back to wing with Eastmond, Devoto and Tango there though.

I don't think we'll see him anywhere near the backrow, that would take up almost all of his contract by which time he'll be 28/9. I honestly think he'll play wing. As you say though it's become the norm to have a Roberts/JDV type player in at least one centre spot and if Burgess converts to 12 then England will be looking at 12. S Burgess 13. M Tuilagi....

Bath have got a 10/12 combo of Ford and Eastmond, so having a 13 with physical presence seems likely to be a priority for them. Burgess will carry the ball like Tuilagi, has a big range of off-loads and, if he can learn the patterns and techniques will be a terrifying prospect in defence. You'd want a player like that involved, so unlike Eastmond (who looked to have the potential to play any position from 9-15 when he converted) I think Bath will move him into midfield. As Burgess doesn't appear to have much of a passing game, and Eastmond does, 12 Eastmond, 13 Burgess is surely where Bath are headed.

Normally I'd be worried about Devoto, who looks a real prospect, but as he can play 10, 12, 13 and 15 I'm sure he'll get plenty of game time.

GunsGerms wrote:Another league convert at centre for England??????

Henry Paul, Andy Farrell, Lesley Vainikolo, Shontayne Hape, Kyle Eastmond, Joel Tompkins and now Sam Burgess.

There have been more league converts capped in the centre for England in the last ten years than union players.

Why are the RFU obsessed with league players?
Does the England team just want to play league?
Why cant grass roots English rugby union produce centres?
Is the AP not a high enough standard?

For a long time English rugby did struggle with producing centres. This is no longer the case though, and with Twelvetrees, Burrell, Tuilagi and Barritt now firmly established there is no particular problem anymore. There are also players like Daly and Hill coming through and I think the two u20s centres this season are exceptional.

Burgess is a gamble. If it pays off it will be good for the England team, but he'll have t work hard to get into the side. Personally I think it's very unlikely he'll figure in the WC and SL I already talking up the longer term.

Just watched a video of burgess, he is definitely a Jamie Roberts style 12 but with vision and a boot, could be exactly what England need and with Manu they could be irresistible

I think its unlikely too and I agree Burrell looks a very tidy player and Tulagi is clearly very very good too.

Burgess is a gamble but only for Burgess and Bath. If he doesn't work out it may be a bit of wasted brass for the RFU (are they still subsidising this move?) but otherwise it's a shot to nothing for England.

No harm in chancing your arm. If it works so much the better. If not, Burgess could stick at it long term or go back to League.

The only danger is upsetting a good partnership that may form in the meantime.

Only time will tell how successful he will be, he does seem to be moving for the right reasons in the middle of his career so safe to say he isnt just in it for a payday. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary about him filmed last year it is a good watch, and shows high profile he was/is in Sydney and gives a back story to his life and career so far. Link below if anyone has 45 mins to spare....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6oyUwviHUk

One thing no one has mentioned is the size of his melon. It is considerable and more tailored to the 6 position as the inertia of that thing must be a hindrence to side-stepping in the backline. Watched him many times on the NRL Footy Show and he was constantly ribbed about it. He was a good sport and I reckon he's made of the right stuff.

I am not saying he will not be good enough for the England 2015 RWC team/squad, but he should not be brought into the team/squad just because he is a rugby leagiue convert.

He should have to fight for the shirt, he should only get in on merit. if he does, then good luck to him and England.

shursty06 wrote:Only time will tell how successful he will be, he does seem to be moving for the right reasons in the middle of his career so safe to say he isnt just in it for a payday. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary about him filmed last year it is a good watch, and shows high profile he was/is in Sydney and gives a back story to his life and career so far. Link below if anyone has 45 mins to spare....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6oyUwviHUk

Just watched it, sad to hear he lost his dad whilst young. He used to carry him to watch the games, tells you the sort of bloke he is.

also 4 brothers playing at the same time, there all units! Oh and Russell Crowe annoys the hell out of me.

Crowe may like the sound of his own voice a bit, but I think he comes across as a fundamentally good person in that documentary.

Burgess sounds like an amazing guy. Hope he can make the transition quickly, as much as anything because it's nice to be supporting players you admire for more than just their skill sets.

Anyone else see this quote from SL?

"If he makes the World Cup training squad in the summer of 2015, there are two warm-up games before the final squad is named. We will take three centres and one who can also play wing. There is some pretty good competition out there.”

Its interesting that he knows that so far out. Injuries permitting, you would guess that Barritt and Manu would be in there, which leaves 1 other slot and one for a May/Eastmond type utility player.

Or Twelvetrees, Burrell and Tuilagi (wing option). Still plenty of time for people to impress.

Scratch wrote:Just watched a video of burgess, he is definitely a Jamie Roberts style 12 but with vision and a boot, could be exactly what England need and with Manu they could be irresistible

If he tackles like he does currently he will spend a lot of the time in the sin bin.  He never seems to use his arms.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=30OjXw-niu8

Exiledinborders wrote:

Scratch wrote:Just watched a video of burgess, he is definitely a Jamie Roberts style 12 but with vision and a boot, could be exactly what England need and with Manu they could be irresistible

If he tackles like he does currently he will spend a lot of the time in the sin bin.  He never seems to use his arms.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=30OjXw-niu8

Almost as if theres no requirement to do so in league ....


The big shoulder checks arent much different to how Tuilagi plays, just with a token warp of the arms at the end. Hes more likely to have a problem with tip tackles if you watch some of his highlight videos.
The real thing though is learning that simply smacking someone really hard then trying to pick a fight with them after doesnt work in Union, youre also expected to lie on the wrong side of the ruck in a manner that enrages Glorious Empire but doesnt get penalised. Its a tough skill to learn.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Scratch wrote:Just watched a video of burgess, he is definitely a Jamie Roberts style 12 but with vision and a boot, could be exactly what England need and with Manu they could be irresistible

If he tackles like he does currently he will spend a lot of the time in the sin bin.  He never seems to use his arms.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=30OjXw-niu8

Almost as if theres no requirement to do so in league ....


The big shoulder checks arent much different to how Tuilagi plays, just with a token warp of the arms at the end. Hes more likely to have a problem with tip tackles if you watch some of his highlight videos.
The real thing though is learning that simply smacking someone really hard then trying to pick a fight with them after doesnt work in Union, youre also expected to lie on the wrong side of the ruck in a manner that enrages Glorious Empire but doesnt get penalised. Its a tough skill to learn.

Agree about tip tackles. Also reckless high tackles. In the video I think there about four yellow and two straight red card offences. That is not including the fighting. He does look to be a powerful runner going forward although he might find refs taking a dim view of forearm smashes against defenders.

It will be very disappointing if England pick a player who fails to enrage GE. I suspect he will find something to moan about. Indeed the better he turns out to be the more annoyed he will be.

SBW, was known for his no arms hits and successfully modified his tackling technique in union.

I think this guy will be a revelation in the centre - he's not your average international league forward, he's regarded as maybe the best forward in the NRL so is something special.

Not sure about him making the 2015 squad but this is great news for England and not so great news for other sides.

Bath will get the best out of him.

If any English or NH rugby fans feel like donating some money to pay for his contract release fee then please contact Bath rugby PLC - ask for Bruce.

Salary cap?  

Or young English RU players

Knackeredknees wrote:Salary cap?  

Don't worry about that we are well below it with Bendy and Henson leaving freeing up a large sum of cash.

munkian wrote:Or young English RU players

Plenty of those in the current England side

Great, another League convert experiment - will he or wont he discussion.
Personally, there is no way a league convert will be able to adapt to the breakdown complexities of a forward in the time span that we are considering Brad Thorn aside I cant think of any League to union forward converts.

SBW, Jason Robinson, Matt Rogers, Lote Tuquiri, Israle Folau, are all notable success stories.
Chris Ashton (semi success story)

These are most back 3 players where the League game skills are best converted.

I think long term Burgess may be seen as a centre (13) - 2015 surely too soon, but long term he could be in the selection pool for England -

12. 36, Barritt, Eastmond
13.Tuilagi, Joseph, Burgess

12/13 versatility - Burrell, Eliot Daly

Wouldnt expect to see Tuilagi and Brugess line up together - But one of them coming off the bench to replace the other with 20mins left would be fearsome.

Personally i think its a slap in the face of all the Bath youngsters first of all then...then all the English youngsters.

And a little arrogant to think he'll just walk in to the England side.

Its also an opportunity for said youngsters to show that RL isnt all that its made up to be. Competition could get 'fierce'

Agree with that GF. Ollie Devoto, first time I really saw him stand out in that Bath v Exeter game - really stood out and had a great game. First thing I thought was 'Is he England qualified?'
He will be directly competing with Burgess for a club spot - that in itself is not a bad thing, you want competition for spots.

However, should he walk into the England camp having played 3mths of club rugby would be rediculous, and as GF said, a bit of a slap in the face of all the others lining up.
All this talk of 2015 is unrealistic - comparisons with SBW (who spent time learning when with Toulon) is unrealistic.

I have no objection to Burgess if he is good enough - but for me needs a season at least for Bath prooving he is good enough before talk of England. He should be targeting the Oz tour, Lions and the 2019 WC (only 5 yrs away).

too many comments to read here, does anyone know his reasons for moving to Union?

Money? Is there more money in English union than Oz NRL?
Higher profile sport at home?

I read that all his brothers and mum had relocated to Australia - so this is bucking the trend somewhat!

Biltong wrote:too many comments to read here, does anyone know his reasons for moving to Union?

He found RL a bit girlie for his monsta stylie