Sam Burgess for England 2015

First topic message reminder :

My news feed has just been bombarded with news that NRL superstar Sam Burgess has signed a 3 year deal with an english premiership club.

It is also reported that the RFU paid a significant part in raising the money to ensure his release from his contract, he will be heading to Bath according to reports.

I haven't seen much of him in the NRL perhaps someone with better knowledge could comment on how good he actually is?

The big Questions on my mind are:

Where will he play ?

Does England have room for him ?

Exciting times.  

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Are people mentioning Burgess as an inside centre? Hmm, can't see it myself. 6 possibly, but not a back.
I'd be very happy to see him come across but can't see him making a WC squad.I'm a bit torn on the general league players coming across. I do have some sympathy for supporters of the game, it's just not got the money, but it's seems a shame if what is essentially a regional game gets bulldozed by southern moneybags...on the other hand I find it incredibly dreary to watch, so.

Hoody, I think its because some people saw Sonny Bill switch from a wide playing second rower in League to a second five eighth in Union, I personally thought a blindside as well.

Ah ok, thanks Auckland. I reckon SBW's skills-set is pretty unique. Burgess, from what I've seen, is good at hitting people very hard and running extremely hard. The former in a distinctly league manner. I can't see him as a distributor, and you'd never worry about him putting a grubber in behind!

kingelderfield wrote:I've just read through the TotalRL Sam Burgess thread and for all the disquiet it obviously has caused, I am still far from convinced this is even close to a done deal. Too many things just don't logically add up, top of the list being any RFU financial involvement.

Obviously time will tell, but am I the only one who feels a little sickened by this whole affair? I don't know, I don’t think I felt this way when Kyle Eastmond came across and certainly not when Jason Robinson signed for Sale. It all just seems ironically a bit 'cheap'.

Seems this was just the usual rfu balls up after all.........

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/214701.html

"We were informed that a number of Premiership clubs were contacted and told that the RFU were interested in bringing Sam Burgess into rugby union," Bruce Craig, the Bath owner, told the newspaper. "[They were told] Sam would be put on the market because the RFU would be paying the transfer fee. That is the truth.

"What we were told was they [the Rabbitohs] would release Sam from his contract and there would be an open market among the English clubs to bring Sam into the English game."

Thing is it doesnt say who told them. The RFU are still denying that they ever made such an offer or ever had any money on the table. Its also against RFU policy to fund such moves, and against agreements they made with PRL. If it was anyone in the RFU (and the only article Ive seen that cited and "RFU source" got pulled within a few hours of being published) then either theres a lot of liars or a rogue.

The whole thing really smacks of agents.

About turn;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10642946/Sam-Burgess-to-cross-codes-and-join-Bath-from-South-Sydney-Rabbitohs.html

It's now official, he has joined Bath! Can't believe it to be honest, really not sure what I think. Appears we've spunked our £500k extra cap on one bloke.

http://www.bathrugby.com/news/team-news/world-class-burgess-chooses-bath-rugby-for-cross-code-switch

Bathite wrote:It's now official, he has joined Bath! Can't believe it to be honest, really not sure what I think. Appears we've spunked our £500k extra cap on one bloke.

http://www.bathrugby.com/news/team-news/world-class-burgess-chooses-bath-rugby-for-cross-code-switch

I couldn't have put it better myself........surely though he'll be your 'marquee' player and therefore exempt of the 5M cap?

Pretty sure that Louw is the marquee. What I didn't know is that the transfer fee can be split over the length of the contract apparently

£500,000 is a lot of money in Rugby and a big gamble. I hope the gamble pays off, but I would have no illusions. Going from one sport to learning and being comfortable in another sport is very difficult. If I have the story right, Mr. Craig is footing the transfer bill?

The £500k comes out of the salary cap I think, but can be split over the length of the contract, which is what Saints did with North apparently. Also, we will receive a transfer fee from Clermont to release Abdenanon a year early, so this will offset quite a bit of it as well.

Having said all of that, there are his wages as well and it still represents a massive risk, as we don't even know where he will play. 6 and 12 have been mooted so far, but with Garvey and Eastmond there, they aren't weak positions for us. Guess he'll have the first season in the 2nd team, with the odd LV cup game, as we did with Kyle. But very interested to hear what the club have to say on where they will play him. At least with Eastmond they could put him out on the wing and slowly move inside whilst learning, i'm not sure that Burgess will have that luxury, as he doesn't have the express pace.

I think Bath may have made a mistake here!

Just out of interest what other players are on £500k or more? I guess Sexton, Wilkinson, Giteau, Habana and Jamie Roberts are in France.

All those guys are established Internationals, all play every game for their clubs and all have proven themselves though.

Bathite wrote:Pretty sure that Louw is the marquee. What I didn't know is that the transfer fee can be split over the length of the contract apparently

Yeah but they could put Louw under the cap and make Burgess the marquee player, or just ignore the cap *cough*

What an exciting signing. Bath are putting together an amazing group of talented young English players. I still think they'll try to make him an OC. I think he'll struggle to be ready for 2015 though.

Good on England I reckon, big Sam is one mean mother. He may slim down a bit as rugby players are generally more wirey than the bulked up gym obsessed league players. More running in rugby.

Good move for England. In all fairness they are more or less playing rugby league as is so he should slot right in.

Well league fans seem to love him. Still reckon he'll be hard pressed to make the England squad but everything I've read suggests he has the talent for it.

ebop wrote:Good on England I reckon, big Sam is one mean mother. He may slim down a bit as rugby players are generally more wirey than the bulked up gym obsessed league players. More running in rugby.

But they're also mega-fit ebop. I suppose it may depend on where they see him playing. If he's a 6, and I think that's a better fit that 12, maybe he'll bulk up!

He's not massive for a 6, but seems very powerful for his weight. I do wonder if some of that will be negated by having to tackle with your arms though. An interesting move, Bath are looking scarily formidable.

I wonder if any of the rest of the clan will follow?

GunsGerms wrote:Good move for England. In all fairness they are more or less playing rugby league as is so he should slot right in.

As opposed to Ireland's 'all court game' which revolves around mauls, choke tackles and kicking for territory. Thrilling stuff

Re. Burgess. Exciting times. Looking forward to seeing how he transfers. I really didn't think it was going to happen and was just media spin and agent wrangling. Can't see him breaking through soon enough for 2015 but happy to be proved wrong.

Bulk up!! Hope not Hoody I checked his stats on wiki and he's 6 ft 5 in and 116 kg which compares with Jerome Kaino at 6 ft 5 in and 113 kg. Assuming the stats are right, he could fit the 6 and wouldn't look little. I don't think I've ever seen him pass. Seen him steam roll many a player in the NRL though.

Is it just me that thinks this is all a bit daft. I guess its Craig's money to spend as he chooses but I don't many other clubs taking this type of player. Maybe the league wings but not the forwards.

I'd rather see him stick with League and help the GB team there do well.

kingelderfield i am sure that if he went to Gloucester you wouldn't be calling it daft!

Not all league converts work but I think Burgess can make it happen.

12 should be his position in my opinion.

So Bath have got Garvey, Burgess, Fearns, Houston....

Thats some serious size!

why would the RFU "invest" in another flanker anyway? he shall be 12 or 13 as this is where England needs power when Manu is not there.

yappysnap wrote:I think Bath may have made a mistake here!

Just out of interest what other players are on £500k or more? I guess Sexton, Wilkinson, Giteau, Habana and Jamie Roberts are in France.

All those guys are established Internationals, all play every game for their clubs and all have proven themselves though.

I agree we've made a mistake, but just to get the facts right. The £500k is the transfer fee for releasing him, it isn't the salary, more of a one off payment, which i'm not sure comes out of the cap (I thought it did) and might be supplemented by RFU (I thought it wasn't)

beshocked wrote:kingelderfield i am sure that if he went to Gloucester you wouldn't be calling it daft!

Not all league converts work but I think Burgess can make it happen.

12 should be his position in my opinion.

I'll be honest, I think it is daft. I said last week that it would never happen. I was wrong! Sorry about that!

beshocked wrote:kingelderfield i am sure that if he went to Gloucester you wouldn't be calling it daft!

Not all league converts work but I think Burgess can make it happen.

12 should be his position in my opinion.

Hi Beshocked,

Honestly yes I would. Why do you think he can make it happen?

Because physically by all accounts he's a bit of a freak, and he already has a lot of the basic skills (some no doubt to a higher standard than the players he's competing with). League players have successfully converted in the past, and Burgess is an unusually good one. Why are you so sure the Bath and England coaches are wrong and you are right?

There is no doubt that it is a huge risk though- has he even played Union as a school kid? Being a physical freak isn't even an indicator that he will be a decent player never mind an International standard one!

Of course it's a risk, but Bath can afford it and if it pays off he'll become one of the world's best players.

DaveM wrote:Because physically by all accounts he's a bit of a freak, and he already has a lot of the basic skills (some no doubt to a higher standard than the players he's competing with). League players have successfully converted in the past, and Burgess is an unusually good one. Why are you so sure the Bath and England coaches are wrong and you are right?

The doubts exist because for every Jason Robinson (or Kyle Eastmond even) there are a whole load of Chev Walker's. There have been more failures than successes. I think there is a particular problem with big lumps in League who think they just have to turn up in Union to be able to run through everybody. When they find out they cant they end up disappearing or going back to League.

Its always worth being guardedly optimistic about these things but there is no guarantee he will amount to anything in Union.

DaveM wrote:Of course it's a risk, but Bath can afford it and if it pays off he'll become one of the world's best players.

We still need to hear about how this is fitting under the cap. My understanding is that even with no salary the 500m move must come under the cap and that is the new cap room gone for this year straight away!

Its a partly to do with the role he will play. Converting a forward is harder than converting a back. Ok he can be a 12, problem is you then have Matt Banahan at 12 again..albeit an upgraded version. He cant/wont pass and isnt exactly a kicker.
Hes just a big lump of momentum and nastiness without the raw pace of SBW.

Bath seem willing to risk huge sums of money on everything except sorting their stadium out.

The Beeb is reporting the fee as £500K A$, that's about £250K, half as much as previously reported.

Can the League's in here tell us, has he got the pace to play at centre, having a quick No.8 playing there is just not good enough at international level even if he has the skill set.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

DaveM wrote:Of course it's a risk, but Bath can afford it and if it pays off he'll become one of the world's best players.

We still need to hear about how this is fitting under the cap. My understanding is that even with no salary the 500m move must come under the cap and that is the new cap room gone for this year straight away!

He can be exempted form the cap if they put Louw under it or get rid of him.
Im not certain the transfer fee does come under it ...Id assumed it was only fees payed to him or his agents that did (signing on payment), not to clubs they are buying him out from.

He'll have to get past Twelvetrees, Manu, Burrell etc first aswell.

lostinwales wrote:

DaveM wrote:Because physically by all accounts he's a bit of a freak, and he already has a lot of the basic skills (some no doubt to a higher standard than the players he's competing with). League players have successfully converted in the past, and Burgess is an unusually good one. Why are you so sure the Bath and England coaches are wrong and you are right?

The doubts exist because for every Jason Robinson (or Kyle Eastmond even) there are a whole load of Chev Walker's. There have been more failures than successes. I think there is a particular problem with big lumps in League who think they just have to turn up in Union to be able to run through everybody. When they find out they cant they end up disappearing or going back to League.

Its always worth being guardedly optimistic about these things but there is no guarantee he will amount to anything in Union.

Willie Mason anyone ?

Another league convert at centre for England??????

Henry Paul, Andy Farrell, Lesley Vainikolo, Shontayne Hape, Kyle Eastmond, Joel Tompkins and now Sam Burgess.

There have been more league converts capped in the centre for England in the last ten years than union players.

Why are the RFU obsessed with league players?
Does the England team just want to play league?
Why cant grass roots English rugby union produce centres?
Is the AP not a high enough standard?

GunsGerms wrote:Another league convert at centre for England??????

Henry Paul, Andy Farrell, Lesley Vainikolo, Shontayne Hape, Kyle Eastmond, Joel Tompkins and now Sam Burgess.

There have been more league converts capped in the centre for England in the last ten years than union players.

Why are the RFU obsessed with league players?
Does the England team just want to play league?
Why cant grass roots English rugby union produce centres?
Is the AP not a high enough standard?

No there hasnt. We have just capped a lot of centers because we dont have BOD and Darcy
Because league players are fitter and have better basic skills
Theres 3 players in the current side who came through the grassroots as centers (May, Twelvtrees and Burrell....and Barrit has done almost all his development here, Tuilagi came through the English school system and leicester academy)
All Englands squad plays in the Jeff as does some of the welsh one, what makes you think its not up to standard? If only it could have games as competitive as Ospreys B vs Treviso....Are you going to say that Super rugby is sub standard because they have SBW?

At least do some basic research before trolling

Look at the facts Peter. At least 6 league players have been shoehorned into the England centre in the last 8 years or so. That is a massive number. Another fact, O'Driscoll has played England 12 times in the 6 nations (won 8 lost 4), he has faced a different centre combo every time. Why? Obviously because English rugby union cant produce centres.

Why else would 7 league converts be called in in less than a decade and no centre partnership last more than 1 campaign?

Burrell IMO looks like the best centre England have produced in a long time and Tuilagi is good too but the well tends to be fairly dry in the midfield.

League players aren't fitter. Burgess is a lump and will need to drop a few pounds to keep pace with union. He also seems to be a bit of a hot head.

Maybe it's because we drop centres like Tait and Allen without giving them a chance

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe it's because we drop centres like Tait and Allen without giving them a chance

It doesn't help possibly that there has been a rapid turnover of coaches too. Its good to experiment but at some point you do need to settle on a team.

I agree, Guns, that's why it was going to be good having an unchanged 15 for this game before Cole's injury was announced

GunsGerms wrote:League players aren't fitter. Burgess is a lump and will need to drop a few pounds to keep pace with union. He also seems to be a bit of a hot head.

League players a definitely fitter guns, not to extent they used to be but its still a much quicker game with very few stoppages.

Different kind of fitness- the kind of scrummaging-rucking work that a Union forward does would initially tire out a league player because that kind of work doesn't happen in league

ChequeredJersey wrote:Different kind of fitness- the kind of scrummaging-rucking work that a Union forward does would initially tire out a league player because that kind of work doesn't happen in league

Exactly. Different sports. Different types of fitness.
No one could successfully argue the NFL guys aren't incredibly fit. But they would need to significantly adjust their fitness and training in order to play Rugby.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:League players aren't fitter. Burgess is a lump and will need to drop a few pounds to keep pace with union. He also seems to be a bit of a hot head.

League players a definitely fitter guns, not to extent they used to be but its still a much quicker game with very few stoppages.

Agreed. In terms of intensity League is higher.

When Andy Powell moved to League I remember both him and the coaches stressing how it took him by surprise how difficult it was to keep up with the pace and relentless nature of the game, even in training.

You rarely get breaks in the same way. Union players get plenty of breathers with the set piece.

Obviously if he was a forward the scrum/ruck/maul would take some getting used to in terms of strength and energy sapping.

doctor_grey wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Different kind of fitness- the kind of scrummaging-rucking work that a Union forward does would initially tire out a league player because that kind of work doesn't happen in league

Exactly.  Different sports.  Different types of fitness.  
No one could successfully argue the NFL guys aren't incredibly fit.  But they would need to significantly adjust their fitness and training in order to play Rugby.  

NFL players get a break every 5 minutes   

NFL players get breaks after every play. Yet, these guys are incredibly fit. Their fitness is designed for intense bursts of energy and raw strength. Far exceeding anything in Rugby. On the other hand their endurance levels would almost never last past 20 minutes of Rugby. Our Rugby guys are also incredibly fit. Different fitness for different sports. No issue.