England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

We do NOT have to go to Cardiff. Wales have to come here

ChequeredJersey wrote:We do NOT have to go to Cardiff. Wales have to come here

Well that's unfortunate.

So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, just
Line-out - England
Scrum - Evens
Half-backs - Evens
Centres - England
Back three - England

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

Duty281 wrote:So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England Ireland
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, just Ireland
Line-out - England Ireland
Scrum - Evens England
Half-backs - Evens Ireland
Centres - England Ireland
Back three - England Ireland

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

Some of these are subjective of course ....

Duty281 wrote:So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, just
Line-out - England
Scrum - Evens
Half-backs - Evens
Centres - England
Back three - England

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

Now do that totting up with France.

Last two years Ireland had a definite edge behind the pack but were negated by the weather and England's game. This year the Irish back line of the last two games doesnt look as dangerous as it was. But they do have some smart players. Interesting times

Duty281 wrote:So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, just
Line-out - England
Scrum - Evens
Half-backs - Evens
Centres - England
Back three - England

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

Really? You honestly think Care and Farrell are as good as Murray and Sexton? Two Lions test starters vs two subs.

I think England are going to get mugged in Twickers this year. I know England are playing good stuff particularly in the forwards but I have a really good feeling about this one.

 Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'   2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

gregortree wrote: Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'    2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

That is because Mike Ross got injured so we had to play with two loose head props. Under the old scrummaging rules a good tight head prop was like gold dust. Since the new rules came in tight heads like Cole and Jones have become less effective but not quite redundant.

Dan Cole is still a fantastic player but struggled in the scrum against France.

In any case Ireland now have two international class props for each position on the bench.

Mike Ross and Martin Moore - tight head
Cian Healy and Jack McGrath - Loose head
Rory Best and Cronin - Hooker

Both Moore and McGrath came on v Wales and made an impact.

gregortree wrote: Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'    2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

Yes it has a lot, we had a loosehead at TH for most of that game so that was a particularly bad day.

England will have the edge with a much bigger pack but we've some good scrummaging options on the bench with McGrath, Moore and Cronin to come on for Healy, Best and Ross late on. I'm not as worried about this as in previous years and our lineout has improved markedly too.

gregortree wrote: Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'    2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

Maybe not...but two years ago is two years ago. We'll see. But if the scrum is shamed...there will be a Plan B

Duty281 wrote:So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, just
Line-out - England
Scrum - Evens
Half-backs - Evens
Centres - England
Back three - England

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

Really!

England are going have to wise up if they want to win the next two.

I think will win 1 of the 2 but I haven't a clue which one, our scrum is worring me.

Incidently.... meant to ask one of those guys who rewatch games 10 or 12 times! - it seemed that for a brief period towards the end of the Ireland v Wales game, there were one maybe two uncontested scrums?  Am I right?  If so why?  And if wrong, why did at least one of them appear to me to be in no way contested?

Duty281 wrote:So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England Ireland having stuffed Wales
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, Ireland after the masterclass against Wales
Line-out - England
Scrum - Evens
Half-backs - Evens Ireland by a mile. Sexton is the best in the NH by a mile if not the world. farrell is improving but not the finished article. 9s evenish
Centres - England to be proven
Back three - England to be proven although Brown might have already proven it

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

Yup - ireland have the edge and more importantly the tactical nous / imagination - all just opinion of course

I think the big question is whether Ireland can perform that way again in consecutive matches, they do seem to back a performance up like that with an average game the next.

But we shall see, 10 horrid work days to get through yet!

I like the look of Burrell in the centre for England and because of him the English centres might edge it in terms of being better players however, none of the English backs except maybe Care in practice will be better than the Irish ones because they are so badly drilled and predictable. As a result they run around like headless chickens most of the time.

I'd have Care ahead of Murray for sure but wouldn't swap Sexton for Farrell although the latter is a much better place kicker.

Englands tight 5 is Monstrous and Ireland will have to punch above their weight

Backrow is a key battle with both very strong here - in the outside backs its youth versus experience so hard to call.

Home advantage makes England strong favourites no question.

Duty281 wrote:So who's got the advantage in key areas then?

Recent meetings - England.
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England
Home advantage - England
Breakdown - England, just
Line-out - England
Scrum - Evens
Half-backs - Evens
Centres - England
Back three - England

Logically, it's as clear as can be.

LOL you always crease me up whenever anything ENGERLUND comes up.

In response:

1. OK.
2. Both beat Scotland but the Wales win was miles more impressive than losing to France. Would call the AIs a score draw.
3. A given.
4. Not if Ireland are as good as they were versus Wales.
5. Only for the 65 minutes Hartley is playing
6. Agreed, evens.
7. Behave.
8. Behave, again.
9. England, but only just and mainly because of Brown.

So not remotely 'clear'. Going to be a cracking game though, think both sides can win and I expect it to be close (if Farrell gets his kicking game back).

Do people really think England will dominate the lineout with 7 foot Devon Toner and Paul O'Connell playing?

I know the England lineout is a real weapon but Toner and O'Connell are excellent lineout operators and have dominated Scotland and Wales there and had a good day v NZ.

Form - Ireland really stuffed Wales in the best display of the tournament so far, at home. England has home advantage this time. AI's Both teams played well vs NZ but lost. England got the win over OZ. Ireland didnt

Breakdown - to be seen. England is not Wales - there are a lot of guys who can do a job here and they are hunting more as a pack like the days of old rather than working as individuals.

Scrum. 2 years ago there was a huge gulf, a year ago there was a small gulf. This year new rules and new players so could be anyones.

Half back- well Care has probably been the form SH of the 6N and Sexton the form 10- and the other 2 players are no mugs so not so different either.

Centers - has to be an England edge, even if its just a small one. BOD still has the nous but isnt getting any faster. D'arcy was very lively against Wales but I dont think he will get much out of our guys.

Back 3 - I do think England may have a small edge here too

GunsGerms wrote:Do people really think England will dominate the lineout with 7 foot Devon Toner and Paul O'Connell playing?

I know the England lineout is a real weapon but Toner and O'Connell are excellent lineout operators and have dominated Scotland and Wales there and had a good day v NZ.

It will be a real battle and fairly even. I think both will contest the others ball

I think Sexton's better than Farrell, but Care is better than the Irish scrum-half.

Care and Farrell seem to have a better link-up than the Irish pair as well.

Evens, but only because Sexton is soooo good.

England's centres are in better form as well.

Oh and I forgot the one other facet - coaches. England win that one as well.

Um..with regards to the breakdown, England are pretty much superior to any team, barring South Africa, in that aspect of the game. They were better than New Zealand two games in a row, so it must count for something.

Nice to see you on the rugby board, Top-Hat.   

Englands lineout is only strong as long as Youngs is no where near it.

Pull your finger out Tom no gym training for you until you can hit that barn door.

Schmidt can change tactics/players for the bird he wants to kill (not always successful but he adapts to the next day team rather than having a totally trademark gameplan)

England are having a potent run so far in terms of punishing pace, heavy carrying and crisp passing.  Pace seems to be the main weapon in their armoury (of course added to accuracy in all facets) but pace is the killer blow.  Scotland just couldn't live the persistence of pace. France just hung in there... just.

So question... will Lancaster have the nerve to change his team's 6N rhythm if it doesn't make as much of an inroad on Ireland through a first half.  And if the rhythm changes - will accuracy and vision go with it?

Danny Care is I feel England's key figure. Find a gameplan to stall him and the engine might lose its gearbox.

TJ wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Do people really think England will dominate the lineout with 7 foot Devon Toner and Paul O'Connell playing?

I know the England lineout is a real weapon but Toner and O'Connell are excellent lineout operators and have dominated Scotland and Wales there and had a good day v NZ.

It will be a real battle and fairly even.  I think both will contest the others ball

Do you? Risky strategy but I hope they do. Wales and Scotland tried to contest Ireland's ball, failed and as a result werent set in time to stop Ireland's very effective maul. Ireland have scored two tries using this maul now and set up another two.

Do you really think Lancaster will have missed this?

Guns, Rodders, Secretfly,
thanks for the updates on the front row. 2012 always seemed a bit of a one off, so thanks for the info. No I do not see a repeat but I think the English scrum could still be a strong point. Irish lineout I fear, or used to, England have improved though with Lawes. I see it 50/50 in the front 8.
Half backs.. yes Irish have the advantage...except maybe at 9 where Care is on fire.
England wings are green but improving.
I expect a really great match up overall.. England home advantage will be telling.

How many tries do England fans think they will score v Ireland. Here is the tries against stats in the 6n so far:

Ireland - 0
France - 3
England - 3
Wales - 4
Italy - 5
Scotland - 5

gregortree wrote:Guns, Rodders, Secretfly,
thanks for the updates on the front row. 2012 always seemed a bit of a one off, so thanks for the info. No I do not see a repeat but I think the English scrum could still be a strong point. Irish lineout I fear, or used to, England have improved though with Lawes. I see it 50/50 in the front 8.
Half backs.. yes Irish have the advantage...except maybe at 9 where Care is on fire.
England wings are green but improving.
I expect a really great match up overall.. England home advantage will be telling.

No problem. Any spare tickets?

GunsGerms wrote:How many tries do England fans think they will score v Ireland. Here is the tries against stats in the 6n so far:

Ireland - 0
France - 3
England - 3
Wales - 4
Italy - 5
Scotland - 5

2 or 3.

SecretFly wrote:

gregortree wrote: Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'    2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

Maybe not...but two years ago is two years ago.  We'll see.  But if the scrum is shamed...there will be a Plan B

Plan B, don't knock the ball on?

I don't expect the Irish scrum to capitulate at all, but there isn't much you can do when it does. Though I suppose if it stopped you focusing on that pain-in-the-&&&& choke tackle to win scrums then that would be handy.

I think England will score 2. And I think Ireland will score a few (that's the challenge in my mind. I don't know how many )

thats really not a very revealing statistic GG

penalty count (conceded and won) is probably more interesting and representative of the overall balance of a match

Duty281 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How many tries do England fans think they will score v Ireland. Here is the tries against stats in the 6n so far:

Ireland - 0
France - 3
England - 3
Wales - 4
Italy - 5
Scotland - 5

2 or 3.

So in two games so far England have only managed 3 tries yet they are going to score two or three against a side who haven conceded any and had the second tightest defense last year too despite coming second last.

England also failed to score any tries v Ireland last year.

Where is the confidence coming from?

Great to see a calm reasoned well tempered discussion   with the Irish lads on 606. Well done to all scribblers on here. I fear for 606 'discussion' on the run up to the Wales visit to Twickers in March.

rodders wrote:Englands tight 5 is Monstrous and Ireland will have to punch above their weight

Interesting terminology. Not sure if it was deliberate but man-for-man, each member of the Irish front 5 was heavier than the English equivalent except Hartley and Best who are the same (from the RFU and IRFU profiles). English average was 113kg and the Irish average was 117kg.

If you include the benchs (so England have Mako and Attwood who are big fellas) the averages are 114kg to England and 116kg to Ireland.

Doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of performance but in terms of 'monstrous' and Ireland 'punching above their weight' it's interesting.

thomh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

gregortree wrote: Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'    2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

Maybe not...but two years ago is two years ago.  We'll see.  But if the scrum is shamed...there will be a Plan B

Plan B, don't knock the ball on?

I don't expect the Irish scrum to capitulate at all, but there isn't much you can do when it does. Though I suppose if it stopped you focusing on that pain-in-the-&&&& choke tackle to win scrums then that would be something.

Australia played France a few years ago in France.  And all the talk before the game was that the Australians would be marmalised at scrum time.  The French were that potent and the Aussies were that weak.  It was going to be a forward muscle bloodbath.
The Aussies knew that might prove true...so the effected a gameplan that avoided having too many scrums in the game at all.  The ran the French to death and scored heavily.

I'm not saying anything like a carbon copy would happen in any England v Ireland encounter...but the scrum dominance can be overrated if you have a brain and players to negate it.

quinsforever wrote:thats really not a very revealing statistic GG

penalty count (conceded and won) is probably more interesting and representative of the overall balance of a match

It reveals how many tries are conceded and that all it is meant to reveal.

Recent meetings - England. (However England just about snuk it last year and won in Twickenham the year before mainly because of the injury to Ross in conjunction with the weather).
Recent form (AIs and SNs so far) - England Ireland (AI + 6N both teams are 3/5 but we've won 2/2 so far in the 6N while you've won 1/2)
Home advantage - England (However Ireland have won 3 of their last 5 visits to Twickers)
Breakdown - England, just Even (Evidence so far)
Line-out - England Even (Evidence so far)
Scrum - Evens England, just
Half-backs - Evens Ireland by a mile
Centres - England Even
Back three - Depends on who Ireland pick.

i got that. but it doesnt account for lucky bounces, quality of opposition, weather, etc etc. it's a bit blunt is all.

i think its going to be a great game. just hope it's clean. dont want any red mist affecting the final score.

HammerofThunor wrote:

rodders wrote:Englands tight 5 is Monstrous and Ireland will have to punch above their weight

Interesting terminology. Not sure if it was deliberate but man-for-man, each member of the Irish front 5 was heavier than the English equivalent except Hartley and Best who are the same (from the RFU and IRFU profiles). English average was 113kg and the Irish average was 117kg.

If you include the benchs (so England have Mako and Attwood who are big fellas) the averages are 114kg to England and 116kg to Ireland.

Doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of performance but in terms of 'monstrous' and Ireland 'punching above their weight' it's interesting.

I noticed that two.

Irish fans are more confident than I thought! Just glad it's at Twickenham.

quinsforever wrote:thats really not a very revealing statistic GG

penalty count (conceded and won) is probably more interesting and representative of the overall balance of a match

No..winning is usually the tag that most calls a game. You have to score to win and you have to keep the opposition out to win. Penalties happen in the middle.

England will score because they will get a lot fo possession through their pack. I also think they will maul us rather than be concerned about our strengths there.

Predicting how many tries is folly though because we don't know what sort of weather we will get in 2 weeks.

Ireland will use the high ball though again - Kearney and Trimble are really good in the air and for sure Schmidt will be looking at the 2 England wingers as targets.

quinsforever wrote:i got that. but it doesnt account for lucky bounces, quality of opposition, weather, etc etc. it's a bit blunt is all.

i think its going to be a great game. just hope it's clean. dont want any red mist affecting the final score.

Do you reckon Lawes, Farrell and Hartley will be left on the bench?

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How many tries do England fans think they will score v Ireland. Here is the tries against stats in the 6n so far:

Ireland - 0
France - 3
England - 3
Wales - 4
Italy - 5
Scotland - 5

2 or 3.

So in two games so far England have only managed 3 tries yet they are going to score two or three against a side who haven conceded any and had the second tightest defense last year too despite coming second last.

England also failed to score any tries v Ireland last year.

Where is the confidence coming from?

Twickenham, has a proper pitch for the backs to run on, and for the scrum to push on...unless Thames flooding gets much worse.

The Aviva has the best surface in the 6 nations. Still no tries conceded.

SecretFly wrote:Australia played France a few years ago in France.  And all the talk before the game was that the Australians would be marmalised at scrum time.  The French were that potent and the Aussies were that weak.  It was going to be a forward muscle bloodbath.
The Aussies knew that might prove true...so the effected a gameplan that avoided having too many scrums in the game at all.  The ran the French to death and scored heavily.

I'm not saying anything like a carbon copy would happen in any England v Ireland encounter...but the scrum dominance can be overrated if you have a brain and players to negate it.

Or Ireland could do what the Australians did in 2008 or 2009. Which was to completely best us in the scrum. All the talk was about Sheridan was going to batter Baxter and what we didn't know (or care to find out) was that the Australians had hired a scrum coach. We were crippled in the scrum and the well beat us.

The scrum is way too much of a liability, depending on the ref and perfect timing, that to rely on it is a mistake. If it goes your way (as it did for England in 2012) it can make all the difference. But that's only really with hindsight. Lineouts are much more important. I can see Lawes being put under huge pressure considering he's not THAT experienced calling them.

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How many tries do England fans think they will score v Ireland. Here is the tries against stats in the 6n so far:

Ireland - 0
France - 3
England - 3
Wales - 4
Italy - 5
Scotland - 5

2 or 3.

So in two games so far England have only managed 3 tries yet they are going to score two or three against a side who haven conceded any and had the second tightest defense last year too despite coming second last.

England also failed to score any tries v Ireland last year.

Where is the confidence coming from?

Have you not met Duty before?

He usually has us installed as first/second favourites in the lead-up to most World/European Cups in the footy.

SecretFly wrote:

thomh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

gregortree wrote: Irish scrum was repeatedly 'man shamed'    2 years ago at Twickers. Has it been improved ?

Maybe not...but two years ago is two years ago.  We'll see.  But if the scrum is shamed...there will be a Plan B

Plan B, don't knock the ball on?

I don't expect the Irish scrum to capitulate at all, but there isn't much you can do when it does. Though I suppose if it stopped you focusing on that pain-in-the-&&&& choke tackle to win scrums then that would be something.

Australia played France a few years ago in France.  And all the talk before the game was that the Australians would be marmalised at scrum time.  The French were that potent and the Aussies were that weak.  It was going to be a forward muscle bloodbath.
The Aussies knew that might prove true...so the effected a gameplan that avoided having too many scrums in the game at all.  The ran the French to death and scored heavily.

I'm not saying anything like a carbon copy would happen in any England v Ireland encounter...but the scrum dominance can be overrated if you have a brain and players to negate it.

that's true, I remember France even scoring a penalty try before HT from their scrum so called dominance...that was before Australia scored 40 points in the 2H.

Duty281 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How many tries do England fans think they will score v Ireland. Here is the tries against stats in the 6n so far:

Ireland - 0
France - 3
England - 3
Wales - 4
Italy - 5
Scotland - 5

2 or 3.

 
Dont think England will score 3 tries.
Maybe a try or 2 a piece and it coming down to penalties.
 
Hopefully be a good game and after the 80 minutes the grand slam will still be alive for us